Parent watching

I think we have to STOP worrying about the kids "failing" as you put it--they handle it all very well as far as I can see from my experience--- much better than the parents--- why is a dad yelling at a kid for a bad outing---darn it !!! **** happens folks ---as long as the kids have fun and play hard AND you can have fun even in getting beat-- I wont say lose because as long as they play as hard as they can and they get beat, they do not lose--tomorrow is another game

Drivel posted a remark in anothere thread about our team going 1-3 in Jupiter. BUT the kids played great-- getting beat 6-9, 0-2, 0-2 and winning 3-2 against that competition is not losing --it is getting beat by a better team that day--tomorrow is another day and another game

The PC attitude has gone over the edge--not winning is part of life --- how many Donald Trumps are there in the world and even he does not win every time out

And you learn as much from the losing as you do from the winning....maybe more!

Let your kids fail while you're there to offer support. It might not be pretty if the first time they fail is when they're alone and off at college without their support system in place. Help them see that they're still the same great kids they were before the losing game. Work hard and improve your game. The winning will feel all the better next time when you've worked hard to achieve it.

Justbb,even though I know what a talented and unselfish youth coach you are, perhaps your talents may be better served elsewhere in the world of baseball.
Ever thought of establishing a youth baseball program...to educate and guide parents?
You have a wonderful insight into the game and the world surrounding it combined with the ability to convey an image. Even if it lost money, there would be so many players better off if programs like this were available.
My guess, though, is that only a very small percentage of the parents who could benefit would attend which would necessarily result in your looking for a few more opportunities to "get down."


"The game of baseball always has a way of reminding you that you aren’t better than the game, no matter how good you are.”

TR
one of the greatest things we've learned from these showcase tournaments/events is that it's not about winning. We could never put a team with enough talent and depth on the field to win one of these events. When the playing time is spread around for the purpose of exposing as many kids to as many coaches as possible, the accomplishment is 8 players signing NLI. When they were 14 and 15 we could boast 40-15 records. Last year I couldn't even tell you what our record was. It was something like Illinois, Miss State, Maine, Savannah, Liu, High Point etc, etc.....

You may not have won as many games as last year, no top 10 finish, but the quality of the games and the opportunity you gave the CS Team.

Hmmm...interesting observations by both of you that I agree with. Guess I didn't state my thoughts as well as I could have. I certainly don't mind letting my kid fail...much to learn from that...part of growing up. I'm far from "PC", so don't put that label on me either.

I just thought the anxiety, pressure, intensity exhibited by many parents was a bit too much. TR, you yourself wondered why a dad was yelling at his kid for a bad outing...that was the essence of my post. I wondered the same thing. If you get that, you get what I was trying (unsuccessfully I guess) to say.

JB

I got what you were saying, no problem

We are on the same page

Coach Merc

You got what I was saying---it is all about the end result and to get there you have to have some bumps in the road

JB - I think everyone got what you said - others just expanding on it. And what about the fact that coaches like to see a kid fail, to see how he handles it, because, as TR states - YOU FAIL A HECK OF A LOT in baseball. The last thing a college coach wants to see is an off the hook parent, with a kid that sulks, cries, throws his equipmenmt and blames everyone but himself for a bad outing. These are the kids that get crossed off their list!! The real coaches on this site can verify this fact. Even if the kid acts OK - how many times have you heard "Keep the kid, lose the parent" ?? Sometimes the parent alone is enough to disqualify a kid from a coach's plans.

Too many parents set their kids up for failure later in life, because they don't let them fail early in life.

My next door neighbor has been talking for YEARS about his daughter getting a softball or s***** scholarship - I have tried to school him on the realties. Notice I said "years" - she is now in 4th grade!!

I do parent watching as well. I like to see how they react to different situations. Like JB said, some were enjoyable to watch and others weren't. I have taken the high road when it comes to my son on the ball field. If he makes a mistake I'll curse under my breath and tell him you'll get it next time. Now, if it's a mistake that shouldn't be made, I'll give him a look. The coach gives the players enough yelling without the parents having to yell more at them.

BTW, I thought by the thread name, that JB was wanting to discuss something else.

quote:

Originally posted by tasmit:
BTW, I thought by the thread name, that JB was wanting to discuss something else.

Another time, another post.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by tasmit:
BTW, I thought by the thread name, that JB was wanting to discuss something else.

Another time, another post.

Tas - now that's a WHOLE 'nother thread!! Too much trouble to be had there, partner!

quote:

Originally posted by windmill:
Tas - now that's a WHOLE 'nother thread!! Too much trouble to be had there, partner!

I know. I just couldn't help it.

Justbb- do you think this problem (the out of control parents) is worse at the younger ages? I am of the opinion that parents actually become easier to deal with when their kid gets to be around 15 or 16 than they are when Johnny is 11-14. I think that a big part of this might be that so many of the kids with problem parents are no longer playing the game past 14, but I'm not sure of that. I do know that at the 18u level, we don't see many problems with parents from other teams, and most thankfully, almost none at all from any of the parents of kids who play with us.

Your thoughts?

JBB,
I understood your post . It wasn't about winning or losing, it was parents reactions in general to their son's performance. I've been a parent watcher for years, and sometimes find it more interesting than the game itself. I've lost a lot of respect for some parents and gained more for others, just by watching their behavior toward their son's performances (good and bad).
I witnessed some wild behavior this year as well. One father gathering up his family after his son was taken out for a poor pitching performance and stating, "this is sickening let's go home". Another parent seething because his son struck out at every at bat. I don't think either of these parents cared about the team's performance in general, just their son's poor performances. It was rather sad. Found out later those same parents were theones who rove the caoch crazy.
There was one parent there who came to every game, whether their son played or not. When son came into game, even if for one play, good or bad, the look of pride on their face was overwhelming. You know that player, regardless of baseball talent will always be a winner, because of the parent. Most parents in general pretty supportive, evenif son was having a rough day, tehy are the ones who know that in the game of baseball, you can be the star on one day and the worst the next.

Reaction to a poor performance for most competitive parents is disappointment and embarassment. It may be the wrong reaction but in so many of these cases the parents who really care about such things expect excellence out of their children.

Is this wrong? Maybe, but in so many situations that you and I encounter on a daily bases in whatever committments are made excellence is expected. None of us, being honest, is going to go with the doctor, lawyer, or other such service provider that has a bad reputation eg, lawsuits for incompetence.

Most parents, instinctively understand that in competitions that require a certain level of competence to progress up the ladder know that in baseball poor outings serve to retard whatever chances their child might have to be viewed and selected as one of the elite players. For anyone here to say that this is not important isn't reading the treads here with an honest eye.

Does the pressure to excel begin to early, maybe, but if we are talking about grades, and school courses like those that qualify a student for the college prep versus Advanced Placement (AP), no one here would be chasitizing a parent for getting on their kid about poor performance.

Have I ever yelled at my son about poor performances, you bet, for both poor grades and poor pitching performances, believe me he's not going to melt. But it is done with respect and love and that is very different than embarassing him in front of his teammates, coaches and teacher's. That I have never done.

Now he is to old for me to yell at him, he just laughs at me anyway, now he knows what he needs to do and no one has to say a word to him about achieving excellence versus what it means if he has a poor performance.

The good ones all get to that point.

It is a game of failure. If you yell after every lack of succcess you will be yelling alot. Verbally abusing a loved one is bad. Period.

Verbal Abuse means screaming at someone.

Yelling at your kid is the same to them as getting a lecture.

Haven't you ever watched Leave It To Beaver? Ward Cleaver never raised his voice, but his sons always thought they were going to get yelled at if they screwed up. What they got was a lecture with some pointed questions, which forced them to face their failures.

That's not verbal abuse, it's yelling.

JBB, I always enjoy your posts. I’d like to join you for a game someday .. somewhere.


I know I felt every emotion (with double the intensity) my son felt (from the highest highs to the lowest lows) while watching his games. I would grit my teeth when he swings and I feel my arms tighten when he pitches. In ten years I’ve had to leave two games because of intense emotions. No one noticed but the feelings were overwhelming....It’s tough to be a old competitor with a worn out body and no teammates.

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:
Does the pressure to excel begin to early, maybe, but if we are talking about grades, and school courses like those that qualify a student for the college prep versus Advanced Placement (AP), no one here would be chasitizing a parent for getting on their kid about poor performance.

Whether we're talking about grades or baseball for a 7th grader, within reason, I don't think its worth yelling about. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Justbb- do you think this problem (the out of control parents) is worse at the younger ages? Your thoughts?

06catcherdad - Its a good question, but I think the problems change from outwardly aggressive to passively aggressive. Some of the most egregious comments I have ever heard were made fairly quietly in the stands at HS baseball games. Its a big reason I tend to watch those games down the line rather than behind the backstop.

quote:

That's not verbal abuse, it's yelling.

That's a baloney rationalization. JMO

The universal implication of "yelling" is a raised voice.

Just - I can't aruge with what you're saying, I agree completely. I guess I'm lucky in that I watch high school games from within a scorer's booth behind home plate, and summer games from the dugout, so I don't hear a lot of what might be said.

Now you have me wondering what they say about me!

I was at this tournament this weekend, and it was a great event. What I saw mostly were great parents, great coaches and great players who played together for some outstanding baseball. One of the coaches in the 13-year old division is a guy who played about six years in the Big Leagues and has the game in the best perspective possible. He is coaching a team that includes his grandson.

My son's team -- in the 14 year old division and composed mostly of eighth graders with a couple of ninth graders -- lost an incredible game in the championship, 3-2, to the Huntington Beach Vikings and in the process became the first team to qualify this season for next summer's USSSA Elite 24 World Series at Disney World in Orlando (We qualified because the Vikings as the defending champions from last summer's 13-year old Elite 24 already are in). I'm not so sure that the real World Series would be all that much better.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Now you have me wondering what they say about me!

Oh, I've been there...they say YOU are the absolute BEST coach their son has ever had.

Jemaz....congrats to your son and his team.....sounds like they played some great ball....I'm living in Huntington Beach now....but still missing Arizona....so I can be happy for both teams!

Wish I would have known you were there jemaz...would have bought you a beer!

quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod:
Reaction to a poor performance for most competitive parents is disappointment and embarassment. It may be the wrong reaction but in so many of these cases the parents who really care about such things expect excellence out of their children.

Is this wrong? Maybe, but in so many situations that you and I encounter on a daily bases in whatever committments are made excellence is expected. None of us, being honest, is going to go with the doctor, lawyer, or other such service provider that has a bad reputation eg, lawsuits for incompetence.

Most parents, instinctively understand that in competitions that require a certain level of competence to progress up the ladder know that in baseball poor outings serve to retard whatever chances their child might have to be viewed and selected as one of the elite players. For anyone here to say that this is not important isn't reading the treads here with an honest eye.

Does the pressure to excel begin to early, maybe, but if we are talking about grades, and school courses like those that qualify a student for the college prep versus Advanced Placement (AP), no one here would be chasitizing a parent for getting on their kid about poor performance.

Have I ever yelled at my son about poor performances, you bet, for both poor grades and poor pitching performances, believe me he's not going to melt. But it is done with respect and love and that is very different than embarassing him in front of his teammates, coaches and teacher's. That I have never done.

Now he is to old for me to yell at him, he just laughs at me anyway, now he knows what he needs to do and no one has to say a word to him about achieving excellence versus what it means if he has a poor performance.

The good ones all get to that point.

I read this post about 50 times - and with each reading I shudder a little more.

Embarassment?
Yelling at a kid for poor performance?
Expecting excellence from someone who hasnt even reached adulthood?

I can honestly say that if my kids give 100% at each practice and in each game and enjoy themselves - I couldnt care less about anything else - including what they win - who notices them and whether are not they are considered elite players or dogs.

I pray that what you say about "most" parents is not true.

Wow, lots of stuff goin’ on here.

I learned very early on from an old baseball sage (Strikes3100) that you can destroy the work of 100 positive/constructive comments by just one poorly placed negative one. This may be more applicable the younger the player. Take the high road. The higher levels will not put up with the psycho parent.

That’s the subtle beauty of this game! It teaches both players and parents, if they’re willing to learn, how to handle adversity. The greatest gift baseball has given to my son is the many, too numerous to count, life’s lessons. It is tuff watching him fail, skin his knees so to speak, but the victories are exhilarating. Most “poor behavior” by parents is a result of their own insecurities than the abilities and talent of the kid.

Jimmy Piersall, years ago, while adding color to Chicago White Sox games with Harry Carey, stated that his father’s relentless pressure to perform contributed to his nervous break down. For some reason that has always stuck in my mind and I never wanted to be a “Piersall dad”.

I’m one of those hangin’ off of the left field fence smokin’ a stogy livin’ and dyin’ with every pitch. Enjoy it while you can. At some point, odds are, it going to end.

Ramrod, Ya got to love the Beave!

“Probably the best thing that ever happened to me was going nuts. Whoever heard of Jimmy Piersall, until that happened? -- Jimmy Piersall, The Truth Hurts

Geez, I never knew there were so many "perfect" parents here. They don't even "yell" at their kids.

I guess I come from another era when the meaning of yelling meant having a sit-down heart-to-heart talk with your kid.

The Jimmy Piersall example is an extreme citation of a very poor parent child relationship.

That the big difference was that his father wanted to micromanage his son's very existence and he didn't understand that his son was suffering from a mental disorder.

That is not the case with my son nor with most people here.

RR,
Sure, many times have been disappointed in son's performance, school and on the field. Raised voice at times when homework wasn't done when it should have been and certainly NEVER was happy if son had a bad attitude on the field. Saw him fooling around in the dugout once and he was punished for disrespect to the coach and team, by us.

Never ONCE let son know we were not happy with his performance in front of others at the field, etc. It was a discussion, positive feedback, to be held later on, in the car, on the way home in private.
I am thinking about the kids I know who grew to be successful and confidant adults . I know their parents and how they raised their kids, what was important and what was not. Their postive attitude raised very successful and happy adults.
Wait, I have a question. This year saw son on TV give the worst pitching performance of his life. Were we supposed to YELL at him when he called that night because WE were disappointed in his performance? What would you have done?
He was disappointed enough in himself, where we supposed to make him feel WORSE? We didn't do it at 13,14, we were'nt going to at 19.
I am not here to say how a parent should or should not raise their child, I only know that for us, yelling about a poor pitching performance made NO SENSE. It's just such a shame that parents have to have the attitude if son messes up, he's off the radar, even at 13.
So if not yelling at your son makes one a perfect parent, then I guess I am.

TPM said:
Wait, I have a question. This year saw son on TV give the worst pitching performance of his life. Were we supposed to YELL at him when he called that night because WE were disappointed in his performance? What would you have done?
He was disappointed enough in himself....
************************************************

Debriefing after a poor performance is not a punishment...it is mandatory.

In answer to your question let me give you my reasons for debriefing after a poor performance.

First it is so my son understands that I am disappointed in his effort and there are reasons for it. I then must help him understand that remedial measures must be taken to help him improve by making the necessary corrections so he can expect to do better the next time...and don't think that after a poor performance he isn't looking for some answers...because he is.

Using that as the basis for discussion then I go through what he was doing on the mound.

I watch him, and know when he is concentrating, or not, in balance or not on each and every pitch, I can tell you what he throws and at what velocity it was thrown within 2 or 3 mph.

I learned this technique from playing football with a ex-NFL coach. This coach would go through the game film and critique the film of a game and then grade out each player on each play. You think he didn't yell...please understand exhorting one to excellence is not being disrespectful.

IMO I believe that football coaches take debriefing and grading players performances much more seriously than baseball coaches do.

I used to Video every game but stopped because it is easier for me to make a note of certain flaws and then discuss them.

There is a difference yes, if you don't know what to say, and just yell at the kid because you are frustrated...but there is nothing wrong with helping your son improve his performances by helping understand why he couldn't do a simple thing like get into a consistent rhythm...

Some parents can't do that, I can.

RR,
Wrong answer.
Son had bad case of nerves, 5K+ in stadium on national TV first time. It was also not up to us to do the critiquing, etc, but his coach.

Do not take this personally, but just goes to show how some parents need to learn to let go, whatever age. They've come to expect excellence at every performance and always think they have the solutions to the problems.

TPM

Just a clarification...I take no offense, but there is no need to be so condescending.

The pitching coach has known my son since he was a starter in LL. He also knows me as a pitching coach and has no problem discussing my son's pitching with me, though during a practice or game I never interfere in anyway.

As my son has been progressing he has come to a point that he goes through his own check offs.

There is nothing wrong with helping your son if you can...but for certain I can assure you that no player will ask you for help unless he knows you can help him with his pitching.

Truth is that most coaches seldom say anything to a pitcher about an outing.

IMO most BB coaches don't debrief a performance on a pitch by pitch basis, and I feel that they should to show the pitcher what he is doing correctly and incorrectly.

It will not be long before my son will be ready to coach his own pitchers. We have gone over and over repetitively the check offs for managing himself on the mound.

There is a check off for dealing with being nervous...it is covered in Kevin Costner's movie, "For The Love OF The Game"

In the movie Costner has a unique way of dealing with nervousness...but what it really is...a pitcher must check off, what's my concentration level?

A pitcher must reach the level of concentration where all else is in the background. That takes practice. A pitcher needs to practice concentration, 10 minutes at a time...everyday.

He also must have practiced tough situations, eg, bases loaded no outs, bottom of the ninth. Using 10 BB's, have him pitch through that situation until he gets the side out without giving up a run. Sometimes he will do it in 10 BB's, and sometimes he won't...but he is practicing how to concentrate in a tough situation.

Rightly or wrongly, there are two areas that I will "fuss" at my two boys about when it comes to baseball (or any athletics). One is if I don't believe they gave their best effort. It requires no talent to play hard, and your effort level is one of the only things in this game that you have total control over. The other is if there is any display of a poor attitude or not handling emotions properly. Beyond that, you can do everything right at the plate, and still not get a hit. A pitcher, even if he gets a lot of K's is still somewhat dependent on his defense. The best fielders make an error every once in a while. Effort, concentration, and attitude are things you can pretty much control and be accountable for. If a kid won't play hard and doesn't have a good attitude, it indicates that he is not having fun, and maybe should just find another endeavor that he will strive for excellence in. Just my opinion.

I have “critiqued” my son thousands of times over how he played baseball but this has nothing to do with emotions. He wanted to get better and he wanted me to help him improve so we talked about what he did wrong. I explained before he was in high school that we would have to identify problems and weaknesses not bask in the glory of the win. I think the emotions a parent feels should be the same emotions their son feels. If he hurts ... I hurt. If he’s happy ... I’m happy. I never got in his face or yelled at him when he messed up his coloring book or when he fell off his bike. Why should I yell at him about the way he PLAYS baseball? My demeanor changes when it comes to cleaning up his room, cutting grass, being home at 11:00PM, or studying….. as they say, that a different ball game????

Some of the commentary on here is downright scarey to me. May I never "de-brief" my sons after their on field performances. They've been at the point for quite a few years where they know when they've done poorly and don't need me to tell them. Besides, that's their coach's domain. My golden rule is still that I follow their lead and discuss what they want to discuss. If they ask for my views, and sometimes they do, I give them. If they want to talk about their performance, we do, but if not, I follow their lead. Fortunately, I don't recall any "lack of effort" days. I guess I have had some pretty stern academic "debriefings" when I felt best efforts weren't being given.

Maybe it's a quaint view, but even with one playing college ball and one heading that way next year, it's still a game and it still needs to be fun, and I try hard not to be the one that makes it not fun. My oldest transferred this year and his enjoyment of all things at the new school is evident; it has also been clear that with that renewed enjoyment has come better and better efforts, on field and off.

Maybe Albert Belle was able to play while acting like he hated what he was doing, but I think the enjoyment always needs to be there. Just my humble opinion.

The curve ball. ...best teaching tool any parent ever had to help their child learn to accept, adjust, adapt, excel.

I expect that each of us with boys who have enjoyed a measure of success in baseball can recall and recount a game, or an at-bat, or perhaps a single pitch when the dreaded curve entered our sons' lives. ...didn't see it coming, but in hind sight, what a blessing. Not to get into a whole different thread on identifying and hitting curve balls, but rather to talk about growing. ...growing in the game. ...growing in life.

Youngsters in Little League work to adjust from game to game as they experience more that the game can bring. As they mature, the better players learn to adjust more quickly between at-bats. Ultimately, as the game speeds up (or slows down, depending on your perspective), the adjustments must happen on the fly, from pitch to pitch if there is to be any chance for success.

Although that "Life Throws You Curves" cliche is tired and seriously overused, it is, nonetheless, true. We, as parents of baseball players, have the luxury of raising children who have faced curve balls on the field. ...who have certainly all failed at one time or another. ...who have overcome at other times, with varying levels of success or regularity.

...and we've seen boys handle the adversity of the curve ball differently. Some keep hacking away in disbelief that the ball could physically do that. Some stop swinging in hopes that the ball will be in the dirt, or at least in hopes that the umpire will take mercy because he could never hit a curve ball either. Some quit the game altogether. But some learn to patiently let the ball travel, and hit it to the opposite field.

Parents too, handle adversity differently. Hopefully, as we ascend to the higher leagues of parenting, we learn to adjust on the fly. ...recognize the problem early on and make the adjustments necessary. We've all done it wrong at one time or another and experienced setbacks in our parenting. Hopefully, we're a bit wiser from those experiences, and better equipped to handle the next problem that will most certainly arise.

I too have noted boorish parent behavior in the stands through the years. Regretfully, it was my own from time to time. But is has fallen off as my son has progressed through various levels of the game. I like to think that most of us have learned to adjust to what life brings and go with the pitch. ...hit to the opposite field. There are still a few who swing away at anything in front of them, doomed to a long career in the parenting minor leagues, but with the potential to become great. And, sadly, some have simply dropped out of the game. ...disappeared out of their son's lives.

Baseball is like life, with great opportunities for teaching and learning. ...at any age. Never stop talking to your kids. I'm certain I'll never stop learning from mine.

Now if I could just identify the curve ball equivelant for volleyball so my daughter could relate to some of this stuff...

Florida, Well said.

When they stop swinging at the curveballs in the dirt, you got to start throwing it for strikes....