Parents involved in HS coach stuff?

Never. Only exception if there is injury.
This dilemma is as old as we are...when DK was in HS a group of parents tried to get the coach removed.  They were tired of losing. I stayed out of it.  It was sad actually.

I've started writing three responses but erased each one.  I got so much to say on this but I truly don't know how to word it without giving away clues to the situations I've been in as AD at my school for people to figure out who I am.  I would get into a lot of trouble if I did post stuff on here but I will say this - if what I'm seeing at my school is indicative of how it's going across the nation then HS sports are going to disappear soon.  

 

Truly the vast majority of parents are good people who are going to let us do our jobs but the number of idiot parents are growing.  It is getting worse IMO.  Those people need to relax or they will ruin it for everyone.

 

Edited to add - I just re-read this and wanted to clarify that I love where I teach / coach / AD at.  It's a great place and I have great relationships with the vast majority of parents that I know.  But we do have that group and it's growing.

Anybody seen the classic film "Hoosiers" lately?  It's often said that this sort of helicopter sports parenting is a brand new thing and a sign of the coming apocalypse, but there's reason to believe that's not the case.

I don't think there is a simple answer to this.  If parents as a group, independently of whether the kids are starters or reserves, feel the need to step in and speak up because of what they hear from their players and observe with their own eyes, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't. 

On the other hand I generally think
parents should not intervene directly between player and coach or even teacher and student for that matter, except in extreme circumstances.   As unhappy as my son was and I was with his situation this past year, I never approached the coach or the AD once.  Tried to tell my son his job was to make it impossible for the coach to keep him out of the line up.  (Then he got hurt and it was a moot point.)

Also it's not just parents of reserves that sometimes feel the need to complain.  In our recent situation, for example, it was actually several starters and their parents who were most vocal with the principal and AD.  All sorts of issues there I gather from things said on the sidelines.

At  another school in our league the entire team -- parents and players -- requested a meeting with AD and principal at close of year, I just found out ( my son plays local  travel ball with some of the parties and this came up in conversation last tournament). Now at this  particular school they have been  through 3 coaches in the last 4 years-- which is a sign that something isn't right I freely admit.  They fired last years coach mid season when all the seniors went to the AD to detail what they claim was his abusive behavior.  As an outsider I am in no position to judge the merits of course.  And that was a players revolt but I'm sure with parent encouragement.

Anyway I think parents stepping in to try to get a coach fired is a pretty drastic move.  Drastic moves should only happen in drastic circumstances.

Especially if it's lots of parents and not just one or two vocal malcontents I would tend to think that  something has gone wrong somewhere. 

Maybe the parents are to be faulted but maybe not.  You'd have to know the particulars of the situation to adequately judge I would think

The line is safety, medical or financial in high school or college baseball.  Otherwise, my sons are expected to handlle their own business..

 

Parents should not be involved unless there is abusive behavior by the coach or there is safety issues being ignored.  But if it's playing time, a resounding NO.  Most AD's around here would probably laugh in your face if you approached them about playing time.  Parents should not have any say in hiring or firing.  Around here that's the School Board's decision (with input from the AD).

 

A few years back during my son's junior year of HS (He's now in college), there was a movement by a few select parents to remove the coach.  He was only in his second year and had come another school district.  No abusive behavior, but he had a rough voice and could come off as though he were "yelling".  Some kids and parents took exception to this.   Basically they did not like the coach and were looking for any excuse to have him removed and hopefully get a local coach that "knew" the kids - basically they wanted a way to insure their kids would get playing time.   A bunch of "good ole boys".  In the end, nothing happened.

 

In the five years the coach has been there, the team has had three playoff appearances.  One of which was a district championship (1st time in 25 years), a regional runnerup and a state appearance. 

 

Funny how coaches are trying to instill the concept of "teamwork" to the players when maybe the parents need to be listening too. 

It all begins back with the little league teams before it ever reaches the high school ranks. What do I mean?

 

Every boy gets playing time. Every boy gets a trophy. Everybody is a winner. Nobody gets cut. All games end in a tie. No scores are kept. This sort of attitude or expectation does nothing but foster a parents belief that their children are more athletic than they are. Grownups, in attempting to build “self-esteem” by rewarding every kid a trophy, diminish the hard work and natural talents of the kids who actually deserve them. The whole trophy situation in youth sports doesn't reflect real life. Everyone doesn't get one. Trophies and awards are meant for the ones who achieve and go above and beyond.

 

You have parents who instill in their kids at a young age (another whole topic) that if you give your best, work hard, and be a good teammate that you will win. Then there are the other parents on said teams that show up to practice or the game and drop little Johnny or Suzy off and either sit under the shade tree and watch, or leave. And here is where I believe this new phenomenon of entitlement comes into play. These kids keep playing through middle school and even make it to high school. By now their parents have come to expect their kids should be the starters without having EARNED it from the other players who worked their rears off behind the scenes. They have developed a philosophy that even the high school coaches (heck, even college coaches) are like their kids little league coach - a volunteer who is dispensable!

 

This is my take on where it begins. I could be wrong but I do believe it has some validity to why we see such behavior in parents as their kids get older. They still believe that their kid should get that trophy but now, their kid should start over the one kid that works tirelessly during the summer and in the fall when their own child just shows up on the first day of practice.

 

YGD

what is being discussed here is why coaches leave. I did it for a long time. I am out 15 years. I coached parents came to the game and that was it. I was friendly and said hello and if they engaged me in conversation I did so. 

Some recent local happenings…parents banding together to get a HS coach fired apparently largely due to playing time issues and coach not indulging in satisfying parents' interest in conversing with them.

 

 

If you want to have a successful program if you satisfy parents interests you will never be successful. 

To add to what YGD posted...

 

A growing number of programs around here (So Cal) have no-cut policies for Freshman.  Any kid can try out and "make" the team.  Many of these kids never advance past JV, but the herd is never culled.  There is literally 25+ kids on the JV and V rosters. Maybe if they actually cut Freshman and made it clear who belonged and who didn't they would eliminate a lot of these problems.

You are correct Will that is what is being discussed here. And the mention of parents came into play as one of the main factors. I just took it to a level of why parents DO and SAY the things they do by the time their kids get to the high school level.

 

Again, I'm not expert on this or much else, and everything I said is subject to judgement and scrutiny. This isn't my first rodeo here on HSBBW. lol. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn once.

Really?  Our HS system does not have middle school ball so 8th graders have to try out for JV.  They take about 8 per year out of 75-100 that try out.  If you don't make it you're probably done for HS before you ever get in the building.  So it is sink or swim at 13 or 14 and VERY few make it as a 9th grader on 2nd try.  If you are not starting or playing regularly for the JV as a freshman chances are you will never see much playing time on the varsity.  A sophomore starting on the JV might be there only because there is a SR on the varsity at his spot that he will take the following season.  Otherwise that player will probably get 5 or less at bats as a JR and Sr. with the varsity. 

 

Total opposite of the trophy culture talked about here.  As cutthroat as can be.  I have seen players and parents actually get excited about injuries to other players that create playing opportunities.  Quietly rooting against the team or more specifically the player in front of their kid is fairly normal.  It is pretty funny to see a kid pick up a 2 out RBI single and 18 sets of parents are pumped and one is bummed.

 

Forgot 2 other things:  Once in you are never cut although they do lose some of those that don't crack the lineup.  Talk to coach?  Only if you are looking to have a problem.  5 years in the program, 2 conversations lasting total 90 seconds of pleasantries.  Three if you count the handshake and congratulations following the State Championship season.

The only reasons to get involved are 1) physical abuse, 2) mental abuse and 3) raising money with no expectation of reward. However, I've seen parents not be able to define these areas. When my son played high school ball if you asked the parents if the varsity coach was abusive most would hem and haw before responding. I'll bet at least half would say yes. 

 

When asked I commented the coach could probably improve his communication skills with players so they have a better idea of where they stand. I asked my son what he thought. He said, "Hit the ball and you know where you stand. Those who don't hit know where they stand. The silence and getting benched intimidates them. That's not abuse?" He added he could have done without the criticism to the newspaper when he had a slow start after surgery, but he tuned it out and returned to form.

Last year at a school near us the JV coach was fired by the Head Varsity Coach at the school.  The JV team was playing terribly.  Apparently some of the JV dads some of whom were apparently former baseball guys were really unhappy with the quality of play.  Several of them went to the varsity coach to complain. Varsity coach started monitoring JV practices.  Didn't like what he saw.  Fired JV coach and replaced him with one of the dads who I gather was a D1  player and long time  rec league coach. Supposedly the team turned it around under him.

Now that is taking parental involvement to an interesting level.  Not sure what the dynamic was there but extrapolating from our school and some others where I know more of the players and parents one interesting thing is that in this area  a fair number of the Dads and even a few of the moms played various sports either collegiately or professionally. Some of these folks are still heavily involved in coaching at least up until HS.  Several of the best coaches in our Pony organization and the little league organization in our area were former minor leaguers. One of our current HS dads coached an elite travel team for many years.   President of our boosters is former professional football guy.  These folks do  tend to be hands offish for the most part w.r.t coaches as you can imagine. But when they speak people do seem to listen.  From the folks I know in that JV situation last year I am guessing it was dads like that that made the varsity coach start monitoring the  JV situation. Then the Varsity coach made his own decision.

Don't know if I would call this a good or bad parental involvement

why parents DO and SAY the things they do by the time their kids get to the high school level.

 

Because they get what they want at the lower level. 

 

I find it amusing that high school coaches have to have parents meetings to tell what is expected.  I never had a meeting and if for some reason I was forced by my administration it would last about 30 seconds. I would simply tell them that I am the coach and they are not.  I make the lineup out they do not. Somemay find that kind of cold but it is the reality of the situation. 

The only reasons to get involved are 1) physical abuse, 2) mental abuse and 3) raising money with no expectation of reward

 

i find the third one very interesting.  What is the reward for raising money?  

I agree in regards to baseball on the field - parents need to stay out.

 

However, when there are fundraising committees and each parent is expected to pay/fundraise $800 (plus $150 administrative fee - plus uniforms which is the case for my son's HS team(s)) - the committee and parents have a right to know what the money is being spent on. If this money is going to coaches - field maintenance -equipment - there needs to be a full disclosure of the money. Then the issue arises - is the money being well spent? Are we getting bang for or buck?

 

This money (other than administrative fee) is seperate from school money so the athletic director is not involved - the Parents are. If I am asked to help fundraise to help pay assistant coaches - fine - but then expect some feedback on the quality of said coaches.

 

If a coach/program is going to ask the parents for money - then its going to come with some oversight and decision making in the program. As with everything else - this can be a good thing or a negative thing depending upon the people involved.

I don't know why it isn't possible to have parent meetings and interact with parents without it being some sort of issue.  Our coach has made it clear that he is open to discussing anything with parents except playing time.

 

There's no benefit to a confrontational relationship with the parents.

 

As to the money issue.  Modern reality is that there isn't enough money for school sports.  Our school has budgeted the money for one head coach for the entire program.  The booster club raised the money to pay for a JV head coach and a varsity assistant. It also raised the money to renovate the field, purchase equipment the coach requested, and supply uniforms for the players.

 

While the money certainly doesn't buy parents any right to special privileges, the fact is that the program would suffer without their involvement.

 

In other words a coach should certainly want parents involved in the program  - just not in the coaching process.

 

Set the expectation that the two are completely different things rather than just seeing parents as the enemy.

 

 

I am reading a thread on another site where a poster justifies the actions and conduct of the type described by justbaseball by firmly stating the position that just as parents are stakeholders in the education of their child, the parents are stakeholders in the High School athletic experience  of their child. This cut and paste summarizes that position:

 

"And just as teachers have to be responsive to all stakeholders in education, so do coaches.  And I'm sorry if some coaches don't appreciate it, but parents are legitimate stake holders in the athletic education of their sons and daughters, just as they are legitimate stakeholders in the academic education of their sons and daughters."

 

This has caused me to do some thinking on many questions:

1.) are parents stakeholders in the "athletic education" of their child?

2.) if so, does the athletic "stakeholder"  equate to being a stakeholder in the academic education?

3.) Does the fact that education is a right and HS athletics a privilege have a meaningful importance in the discussion?

4.) if parents are stakeholders in the athletic education of their child, what ethical obligations ride with that, which might be different than for  the classroom?

5.) If education is a right but athletics a privilege, should the stakeholders legitmately expect,  and the HS coach  be expected,  to have the same accountability to the stakeholders as a teacher?

 

I would welcome thoughts, ideas and responses to a stakeholder concept which is pretty foreign to my background in sports.

 

The father of one of the players on our son's HS team made it his mission in life to create trouble in the stands all five years that our sons played for the varsity.  Freshman year he held meetings at a restaurant and organized the parents to try to get the coach fired.  His complaint was the coach did not know enough about baseball to coach; when that didn't get the coach fired, he moved on to acuse the coach of inappropriate behavior.  The coach was prompoted to assistant AD as a result, sending a message to those parents. 

 

The coach was not perfect.  There were problems.  The biggest problem being that there was no team unity among the players or parents because that dad kept the parents stirred up in the stands, and his son kept the boys stirred up in the dugout all through HS baseball.  The sad fact is one bad parent is like a cancer to the team; it spreads.

 

My opinion is to let your son handle thier own issues.  Even if you are not happy with what is happening on the team, (and believe me when I say, we also felt at one point that we had some really good reasons to be unhappy) nothing positive comes from being that cancer in the stands or teaching your son to have a victim mentality.

Sluggerdad, was that at a private school where the HC fired the JV Coach and hired a dad?  That JV coach had a contract for that year and so, I can't imagine that the HC can fire the JV coach in season.  Also, the school board does the hiring and not the coach.  There are many issues here including liability and prerequisites like concussion training and coach certification.  At least that is how it is in my state.  I have removed an assistant coach before as a HC but had to do so through the school board and that coach received his pay for that year per the contract. 

 

jhelbling, I would as the same thing of you.  Is this at a private school?  In a public school, this would equate to a coach receiving pay and then stepping outside school board control to make more money.  We had a case of a teacher in our area selling candy in the classroom for additional money.  That teacher was fired for doing so.  My teams played in Busch Stadium for a fund raiser.  I was not allowed to force any player to sell tickets beyond the restriction that if they didn't sell, they didn't play in that one game.  All monies had to go the school account and every dime I spent is audited as are all school accounts.  I do know of one coach who tried to have a private account.  He was audited by the IRS when turned in and was also fired when it became apparent that he was using this money as his own personal account.  In fact, this teacher/coach also lost his teaching certification. 

It was a public school.  Don't know the detailed ins and outs. Just know some of the people involved.   Would assume they went through whatever channels they had to go through.  I mean its hard to fire anybody for anything these days -- especially in a bureaucratic organization like a public school.  So I imagine you are right it must have taken some doing. 

Public School

 

Yes - the money is fully disclosed now - was not always fully disclosed before (not implying anything here - just stating the previous process). Most of the $800 can be raised through selling tickets to MLB game here as well. Technically, I don't think the coach can not play a player due to lack of fundraising - but not my point - which I may not have made very clearly.

My point is that with fundraising comes oversight and input from parents. Not sure where that input line gets drawn but as I said before - input from parents can be good or bad depending upon people involved.

Not saying I am unhappy with the assistant coaches - but I have been unhappy with some of the prevous assistant coaches. It is frustrating as a parent to be asked for so much money and the assistants you are helping pay - are not helping your son(s) get better as a ballplayer or as a person.

... and the reason why I asked in bold above.  In my case, I had a guy who I refuse to describe or call, "Coach."  He had to go.  Not only did he lack knowledge, he lacked any desire to do his job.  It was my name on that program and he certainly was not representative of what I believe in. 

The reason I asked you was that if this was a public school and they had a private account, it can be consider in some fashion embezzlement.  The coach I spoke of was arrested for this to the tune of some $30,000 and so, once he was convicted, he lost his teaching certificate. 

Fundraising is a big deal in underfunded programs, where parents have the ability to make up the difference.  

 

But it's tricky cause some parents have greater ability to give than others.  And in our district -- which is economically mixed -- at least by Bay Area standards -- the school wants to make sure that parents don't feel pressured to give, or that giving entitles those who give to more influence and sway.     

 

Really tricky, delicate stuff. 

Is it really the age of entitlement?  I'm not sure.  My parents were completely deferential to my teachers and coaches.  What they said was gospel and never questioned.   Same with doctors, by the way.  In the old days who ever asked for a second opinion?   Parents aren't like that today. Well, okay, maybe they  do feel "entitled"  in a sense.  They feel entitled to speak up, ask questions,  and get answers.  I'm not sure that's a bad thing.  It's not like the "system" is completely self-monitoring or self-correcting.   I guess I would call it more "pro-active" than "entitled."  But that may just be semantics.   Still, I don't think it's an all together bad thing that people aren't as deferential to "authorities" as they once were.  Doesn't it help keep those authorities on their toes -- even if it does make their jobs that much harder. 

 

I don't think we are ever ever going back to a day when a teach or principal or coach could speak and everybody else would just listen and do as told. 

This is interesting because it draws linkage between ALL extracurricular activities and the classroom.  I believe that they are all interrelated and fall under the same umbrella.  If anything untoward is going on with anything related to classroom or school activities it lands at the principal or School Board.  That is undeniable truth.

 

In other threads regarding the coach screaming the line was drawn by a number of folks that sports "are different" and school rules do not apply.  I do not accept that point of view thus I find that it is reasonable to make the argument that parent is making.  With that said I think it is an overreach of the point.  Understanding why things are the way they are is a reasonable question, IMO however, agitating for change because the coach is not running the team your way is going to be incorrect significantly more times than it is correct. 

 

The natural counter to that is when does the student stand up on their own and under what circumstances?  Absent any actual misbehavior I am in the camp of the player has to work through it. 

 

I do agree with the statement that once money is taken it should be accounted for if for no other reason than the failure to do so can only lead to unanswered questions about it's disposition.  That leads to only one possible result - mistrust regarding its use.  Not a box that should be opened and why anyone/coach choses to pick this fight is beyond me.  The minute someone says "I can be trusted don't worry about it" every hair on my body starts sticking straight up and trust is the last thing they get.

 

Trust, respect and playing time....all should be earned.

 

The V coach in a neighboring town just resigned over a parents complaints - this after winning state (5A) just last month!  Seems the parent was upset his senior didn't get more playing time so he made it his mission to find dirt.  He found that the coach wasn't properly accounting for funds brought in for various fund raisers.  Went to the school board and they found no improprieties, just that things weren't done through the proper channels, forms, etc.  Coach, after various interviews and meetings decided he had had enough and resigned.  Now some of the kids from this school, many of whom were there because of this coach, are looking to transfer to nearby schools which will in turn upset the parents at those schools.  Whether they're allowed to transfer is another topic, but all of this over one parent!

without a doubt. 

 

he V coach in a neighboring town just resigned over a parents complaints - this after winning state (5A) just last month!  

 

here is the sad part. He did not leave because he wanted to he left because he did not want to put up with the BS. (parents)  

There's no benefit to a confrontational relationship with the parents.

 

who initiates the confrontation???

 

This is one of those recurring theme topics that comes up regularly.  There's a proper balance point somewhere between a) coaches' rights to run their programs as they see fit and b) parents' rights to communicate appropriately with their coach.  Opinions on where to draw the line for this balance point vary widely... Everything from "parents should be seen and not heard" (basically 0% communication) to "parents as stakeholder partners" (something like a 50%/50% proposition).  Somewhere in between is probably right, and closer to 0% than 50%, IMO.

 

Something that doesn't often get brought into the debate though is the importance of Winning.  To me, if the coach is winning games and playing deep into post season year in year out... Then it's pretty pointless to gripe about PT.  Conversely, coaches who aren't winning AND aren't giving opportunities for different guys to earn time... are rightly open to being asked to explain why, IMO.  Unlike Summer ball, HS baseball should really be all about winning. That's the best way to insure that a coach is playing guys based on merit and not politics, money, favoritism, etc.  

Well...

That sounds pretty confrontational. 

Here's a big difference between the classroom and the athletic field.

 

You cannot cut students from the classroom.  Athletes get cut all the time. (other than from one poster's freshman baseball team)

 

Anything related to play time need not be discussed with the coach.  Period.  Let your son deal with that.  Your job as a parent is to help your player get so good that there is not a question as to whether he will play or not.  It would be nice if a coach shared the budget, ours did, but he really doesn't have to.  There is usually a booster club president that the parents elect that can deal with that as a representative of the parents.  If there isn't, the coach is really accountable to the athletic department and administration of the school.  Not to each individual parent on the team.

Much truth in this.  Most teams have 5 to 7 guys most years that are easy to spot and the competition usually is for 2 or 3 spots. 

 

In deep programs you will have a lot of competition for OF and corner IF slots.  Middle IF, C and pitching usually self identifies pretty easily.  If coach is getting the no brainers on the field and shuffles 4/5 guys into the other 2/3 spots plus DH he can easily keep a roster of 17 to 19 players pretty happy when he wins. 

 

Where this breaks down is when you have 8 or 9 pitchers or 7 or 8 position players on the bench.  There just are not enough games to justify 25 man teams in HS.  Pitching is usually 4 guys with maybe 6 on the roster and that would leave 12 or 13 position players for a 18/19 man roster.  

 

Seriously, you guys should watch it again. Great movie.  The movie was made in 1986, and it takes place in 1951.   Like any good movie or book it reflects its times, and in this story in its time, not only do the parents of the high school basketball team think they can come to practice and give the coach tips on how to run practice, what kind of defense to play, and what plays to run, they actually have the power to vote him out of his position. So anybody who thinks that meddling sports parents are a new thing, or that it all results from no-cut freshman teams or giving trophies to everybody on a LL team*, is badly mistaken.

 

* In our league we give trophies to all players in 6-7yo machine pitch league and don't keep score.  Big deal.   The free ride ends when they are eight.

Parents can believe whatever they want to believe, and coaches can believe whatever they want, but whenever a parent feels his or her child is at some kind of risk that trips their parent-o-meter, they’re going to say or do something in defense of the child. What makes thing bad is, everyone’s parent-o-meter trips at a different level, and every coach’s tolerance is at a different level as well.