Parents involved in HS coach stuff?

Good post.  And I do think a lot of issues arise when there are more players than there is playing time for.   Our team, for example, actually had  8  outfielders this year.   Clearly not enough PT to go around.  All except 1 was and possibly a second (good bat no real speed, but good reads) was a legit varsity player though.  The logjam was eased by the fact that they took turns being injured.   But if they had all been healthy all season, it could have been an utter nightmare.   Not sure what I would do if I was the coach in a situation like that?   Would you cut some -- even though there isn't much drop off between 1-7  (I could see cutting the 8th and possibly the 7th, but not the first six at all).    Would you tell some of the younger guys to just wait their turn and expect to ride the bench and get practice reps their junior years?  

We already cut a LOT of guys who can definitely play freshman year.    I guess with an eye toward the eventual size of the varsity a few more could be cut.  I think that's one thing that's hard for some parents to accept -- how narrow the funnel is as you go further up the ladder.  More and more kids that can compete, but not necessarily dominate, get left behind as you move up. 

I would think as a coach it would take some intestinal fortitude to keep kids off your roster who you'd be happy to have play for you just because there isn't enough PT for everybody. But probably that's better than putting kids on the team  just to be spectators. 

But I don't pretend to have the answer here.  Seems like a little bit of damned if you do, damned if you don't from a coach's perspective. 

There are parents who believe raising money for the program entitles their kid to an advantage when making out the lineup.

If you have Soph's that are not clear cut starters you could drop 1 or 2 to JV as long as that doesn't blow up that team with the same problem. 

This is one of those spots where I think the best coaches talk to players and say to them privately, there is a log jam at your position and they way you perform in practice and ultimately in games will determine playing time.  But if you have 6 of the same guy....all in all play the ones you think have the upside unless they are struggling.

Our younger son played in what I think is the best HS program in America with the best coach at the helm.  Yes, I do firmly believe that.  On one of those points, they were indeed ranked #1 in America for his junior year by a couple of publications including PG.

Based on that experience, some random thoughts after reading a lot of the posts here...

• Our coach once told me that it is unbelievably easy to figure out who should make your team and who should not.  The "line" becomes clear and you go with it.  Some years thats 18 players, some its 27.  Their national champion year was around 27.
• Playing time is rarely that hard either.  For the record, on his typical team of 20+ players, everyone plays a fair amount for the pre-league season.  But once the year is rolling, its rather easy to see who should start where.  Pitching rotation tends to evolve over time, but minus injury, the top 2-3 are rather obvious.
• It is simply not possible to keep everyone happy. AD's and principals need to filter the garbage that comes forward.  Letters are written many years, griping/whining in the stands is ever present.  A good AD has his/her finger on the pulse and listens to their experience rather than a herd of parents.
• There is really no such thing as "PT to go around."  PT is earned by those who deserve it.  If there are 8 outfielders, only 3 get to play at a time.  The best 3 should play most if not nearly all of the time.  I have never seen a situation on a HS team where there wasn't much dropoff from 1-7 unless none of them is very good.  It is a good thing for your son to learn that he either a) must work harder to get into the top 3 or b) that baseball may not be an occupation for him.  Neither is a bad thing.
• It is NOT the HS coach's job to get your son placed in college ball.  Ours happened to be VERY good at placing kids and did see it as a role of his, but he didn't have too.
• A HS coach's job is to coach your son's team and mold them into better citizens playing better baseball than when they began.  A good does that and that alone and should get a 'thank you' from every player and parent...and keep his job.  A great one does some other things.  For the pay, you should not expect a great one.

In my place of employment, we are seeing more and more young kids enter who cannot solve problems for themselves.  We parents need to do a better job of allowing them the opportunity to solve problems without our interference.  Spending our time on tearing down an ethical, safety conscience HS coach because our son isn't playing or isn't getting college looks is a big mistake in my opinion.

"But probably that's better than putting kids on the time just to be spectators. "

Huh, just to be spectators?  To me, that sounds like an unusual perspective.

All 8 players are there to drive each other. When the best 3 play, the others drive those 3 to be better by getting better themselves, While that is happening, they are great teammates doing everything great teammates too.

Earlier this week/late last week there were wonderful comments on Tyler Campbell of Vanderbilt being clearly a great teammate who steps in and wins games for his team after having one start and less than 25 AB's all season. Tyler is certainly the most visible, but there are daily stories like this in college and Milb baseball.

Any team with 8 quality outfielders would be blessed. Any team with 8 quality outfielders, where those not starting took the attitude of being spectators would probably be in trouble.

No one gets better in HS and beyond by being a spectator.  But, if someone wishes to blame a coach for their "plight" and get sympathy from others, it works far too often.

One of our son's MILB managers, with whom he keeps in touch and from whom he is still learning, loved to reference players who "forced" their way into the line up.  Players have the ability to make the choices "easy" for the coach: "force" you way into the lineup or be a spectator and sit. Those are not hard choices for any decent coach to make.

I know I have told these stories before but I'll give two examples from a parent's perspective instead of a coach.  In middle school, my dd played basketball and was, could have been a star.  She led the team in scoring, steal, ...  She has always been bigger than the other girls.  So for whatever reason, her coach hated her and told her she would be benched if she shot again in a game.  She stole a ball, made a layup and was benched.  She did not hit the floor again for the next 3-4-5 games and we did not score at all in 2 of those game and only scored one basket in another.  Then, during an assembly where the gym was dark, someone did something to this coach.  She found my daughter and accused her of it.  The teacher/assistant AD was my daughter's teacher and he told this coach that it could not be my daughter, she had not left his side for the assembly.  This coach insisted that she was going to, "kill my daughter" when practice began.  My daughter broke down crying and told the coach that she had not done anything to her.  I received a phone call alerting me to this and I was told that I was not to come to the middle school.  Yeah right.  The superintendent was called and this coach told the superintendent the same thing even though the teacher told everyone that my child never left his side.  That coach/teacher was relieved of her duties and eventually fired for threatening a child.  That is a place a parent should intervene. 

In HS, my daughter was a pitcher and started from freshman year on.  During her junior year, she was pitching in a tournament and gave up a home run in the 7th inning of a semi final.  She won the game in the bottom of the inning when she hit a home run.  I could not be at this game but got there right after it was over.  After the game, the coach started calling my daughter out and said that she would never be anything more than a "rec pitcher."  My daughter loved this guy and it hurt her deeply.  It got so bad that one parent from another team stormed the outfield and started screaming at our coach.  Other parents from that team followed. At one point the coach screamed at her that she would never pitch again.  My family is well known and they all know my daughter.  Since I was not there, they were going to defend her.  It got worse and law enforcement had to be called.  Afterwards, I asked my daughter about it.  My daughter wanted me to keep quiet and she would handle it.  She went to the coach and told him that she would rather not pitch anymore.  She did not pitch again until her birthday when she was told she was to pitch against the #4 ranked team in the state.  She won.  Again, she told the coach that she would do whatever he wants but that she would rather not pitch again.  She ended up her career at 29-1 in the circle.  In that case, as mad as I was when I found out, I'm glad that I let he handle it.  If you ask her what was her most painful experience in HS, she will tell you that the day she was told that by the coach is her most painful day.  She still loves that guy and would do anything for him.  My dd did not pitch at all her senior year.  There is a place for parents to be involved and a place for players to take care of things.  JMHO!

OK, coach B, that was intense.  I'll try to lighten things up a bit...

Our HS team has a summer program of roughly 16-18 games that starts shortly after our regular season ends.  This gives us a good look at players who will likely make up our varsity team next season and gives those players additional game experience as well as the opportunity to play together.  Because most of our players are multi-sport kids and those other sports have summer programs as well, it is always a frantic juggle making sure we have a suitable team showing up for each game. 

Last night proved to be the perfect storm with very few returning players available for a road game against a much larger opponent.  We typically get one or two such games each summer and use it to take a look at some of the incoming freshmen who we have never seen play.  Well, we had to bring a whole slew of them for this game.  We (coaches) knew it would be ugly from a competitive/score standpoint.  However, those "new" parents were very excited that their kids got the invite for a varsity summer game and had not been exposed to HS summer ball.  They came in full force, cameras rolling, signs waving, loud shout-outs each time little junior came to the plate... quite the spectacle, really.

Meanwhile, over at the 3b coach box (mine), I stuck with my summer ball routine and focused on what we are trying to accomplish.  This was likely to be our only snapshot of most of these new kids until late winter so we wanted to see the whole toolbox.  So, during the course of the game, I gave each new kid one opportunity to execute small ball for one AB, knowing they would get sufficient AB's to take full hacks.  Runners were given the opportunity to show what they know about leads, jumps, reading the dirt, hit & runs, taking an extra base, etc.  Example - Short fly ball, runner at 2b and 3b, I had R3 tag and go... (knew he'd  be hosed but wanted to see what he'd do at the plate and if the trailing runner would do the right thing).  Of course, due to the mismatch, all of this bunting and stealing, etc. was taking place when we were down by the score of a lot to a little.  So, to those new enthusiastic parents, they had to think that the 3b coach couldn't possibly be a bigger idiot when it comes to knowing the game of baseball. 

What does this have to do with the OP?  A couple things.  One - it's pretty easy for a parent to get an inaccurate impression of the coach's judgement and other abilities with a small snapshot and/or only knowing what is happening on the surface.  Two - the parent/coach relationship takes time to develop.  Patience and understanding on both sides are required.  Even then, the coach will never know and understand everything about the player as much as the parent does and the parent will never know and understand everything about the player's role on the team as much as the coach does.

Ah the T shirt games....classic stuff.  I can remember being the grizzled veteran parent my 2nd year sp'laining what was going on to the newbies.  They couldn't understand taking the stud MLB prospect pitcher out that just mowed down 6 in a row on 4 k's in his 2 innings of work etc.  Why down by 4 the coach hit and run etc. 

The part that was really funny was that when I said .....nobody cares what the score is really - this is about game situation and seeing what they got.  When I told them the spring would be life or death and take it easy now and enjoy the relaxed atmosphere the looks were ...priceless. 

By May some of these same people were talking about how the coaches needed to get more players in the game for "development"...I smiled and said that is what summer and practice are for.  Funny part...no one said anything to the coach.  Team was 19-0.

For the coaches here.  Would you ever keep, say, 8 outfielders?  I mean if there is a big drop off at some point somewhere between 1-8,  why keep them all?  If there isn't a big drop off,  what do you do with them all?  That really is a lot of outfielders, especially for a 27 game season + however deep one goes in playoffs.  Seems like its asking for trouble in a way. On the other hand, I can see wanting to keep  every player who has a legitimate shot of contributing on the team too.  Glad I'm not a coach! 

As someone who has sat in on about 15 interviews in the past 2 weeks let me say this - sometimes we miss on hires.  They look good on paper, they look good in the interview, their references come back with good reviews and then it all just falls to pieces for whatever reason.  It happens and sometimes you can't just make a change due to many factors.  This is both teaching and coaching.  Sadly, sometimes that's all we could get.  Last school year we had to hire a teacher in the middle of the school year and let me say the pool of applicants is VERY thin at that point in the year.  We hired someone who was good on paper, interview and was very knowledgeable in their subject area but for some reason it wasn't a good fit.  This person left at the end of the school year and moved on.  It was a good split and nobody hated one another but it happens.  

Another thing to remember is each sport wants the coach of their team to be the best.  Well that's almost impossible to find sometimes.  Football coaches are a dime a dozen.  I could step into a educational job fair and set up a booth just for football coaches and I would probably be more busy than the schools trying to find teachers. Plus, a lot of them would probably be very good hires.  But set up a booth for tennis, golf, swimming, lacrosse and other sports like that (this list will vary by region) it will get very boring and tumbleweeds will roll by.  But those parents expect us to hire great coaches when sometimes we are just trying to keep a team together because that's what's best for the kids.  Yeah best case scenario is a great coach who will make them better but some sports they are hard to find.  So when parents run one off it becomes very hard to replace them just on the fact there's so few of them.  Now add in parents run off football and basketball coaches (the revenue making sports) enough then you get that reputation for being "that" school and good coaches won't even apply.  You get stuck with whoever we can find.  So while it stinks we sometimes miss on hires we can rid of them but it may take a little bit of time to find a better replacement.  Especially when the teaching aspect has to be considered.  End of the day we would love to hire Knute Rockne's ghost for football but if he can't teach chemistry it's not happening.  But parents can do more damage long term if they aren't patient and run coaches off because we now get "that" reputation.  We want to hire a great coach and we have the right teaching spot open for the right guy but he won't even consider us because he doesn't want to deal with the headaches that come with phasing out the idiot parents.  It's really, really tough to find the right fit.  

Now let's talk playing time.  Here's how I handle it. Although I have as our school policy we will not discuss playing time I'll give you one shot with me.  But I'm not going to side with you - EVER.  Here's why I give them a shot - all these conversations start with "I know we can't discuss playing time but I do have a concern about ______ " then it ALWAYS gets turned into playing time.  Usually by them saying their kid wants to play in college yet how is that going to happen if they are on the bench.  I really wonder if these people think I'm that dumb that I don't know that's their ulterior motive.  Anyway, when it finally gets there to the playing time issue I tell them it's coaches decision as to who plays and how much.  Now if that settles it we're done and I never give them another opportunity  to talk playing time.  But if the conversation keeps going on about playing time here's where I throw them for a loop.  I look at them and say "alright let's do it.  We will increase their playing time by (whatever the sports is and however they get time) this much." Well now they get happy but here's where I get them.  "Now you tell me who's going to sit on the bench now.  We will meet back here tomorrow and the next day with them and their parents to tell them their kid is now sitting so your kid can play."  They don't like this because they haven't thought that far ahead.  It hasn't dawned on them that someone has to sit down and when they have to pick who sits they don't like it.

Now if they want to try and name someone I say "OK we will go with ______ sitting down.  But I have a question for you - now that we have established the precedent a parent determines playing time what do we do when another parent of a kid on the bench wants to play over your kid so what happens then?  Then what happens when the kids who were originally in the lineup playing decide they don't want to sit the bench anymore and their parent comes complaining about wanting to play more?  So because you came in here complaining about playing time and now we have a huge mess and the team will now fail.  It's a guarantee the team will go down in flames.  Or do you want us to treat you and your kid special and not follow the rules the rest of the kids have to follow.

Not going to lie but that typically shuts them up.  They see how big of a mess this becomes if we listen to them and give them what they want.  Sometimes they don't get it and it gets ugly.  Well it was going to get ugly because no matter what I said they weren't going to listen.  So it just has to get ugly.

Parents need to relax and let the coaches coach, let the teachers teach and let their kids learn to overcome their obstacles. To fight their own battles - I tell my coaches if a player comes to them asking respectfully about how to play more they better respond with a truthful honest answer.  Don't blow them off or give them a BS answer.  The players get to have these conversations but they don't get to have what they want.  

Since the vast majority of people on here are parents let me leave you with this (if you've made it this far).......

Don't be the reason your school becomes "THAT" school who can't keep coaches.

That's a great perspective cabbagedad. Those parents were all probably waiting for their 15yr old to go yard and get a rally going. Here you were trying to see who had what, and what you had to work with in 6 months!

YGD

 Not all coaches , players or  parents are created equal.  Honestly some coaches.are idiots and  they don't deserve any level of "protection" from the parent/s or player.  One can talk about playing strategy etc,,being the main issue for coach conflict with parents/players, however that's not always the case and a little due diligence may revel other issues fatal to the coach..

i.e. I had no problem helping my daughter get her JV HS basketball coach to "resign" in mid-season.  He was showing up at parties with the players and suggesting stuff to my daughter that would get him put in jail.  All the other parents thought he was great and accused my underage daughter of being the problem.  The parents even tried to get him reinstated! The parents should have thanked my daughter instead of running her off.   Perhaps if the parents had asked me about it they would have had more information and a different view of the situation.

So you want the team to lose?  I'd rather be a good winner than a good loser any day.  Winning and losing can become habits.  

Losing sucks. A player and/or team can learn from a loss. But continual losing makes the team nothing but a loser. Until a new AD brought in a bunch of new coaches our high school got real accustomed to losing in a majority of the sports every year. My kids were there for the change in attitude. That's a learning experience. 

I understand where you're coming from, but I've gone the other way with this thought recently. Starting last year I had 3 parent meetings; one in the fall, one pre-tryouts, and one post-tryouts. This year, since I no longer coach football, I'll be having more. I also try to send out semi-regular emails to parents as a group letting them know random things that apply at that time.

Whether we like it or not, the players come with parents. Nothing good is gained if parents are viewed as adversaries. I've found in all walks of life that most problems are avoided with communication up front. This seems to divert a lot of issues.

Now don't misunderstand, I don't sugarcoat anything or pander to the group. I use this time to tell them what we're about as a coaching staff, as a program, very clearly what the expectations are for kids in our program, how the parents are expected to represent out program, where we need their help and where we definitely don't need their help. I find that all of this, no matter how direct or matter-of-fact, helps out in the long run.

As coaches we are always going to have some of "those parents" to deal with, no matter what we do. But if we explain who we are and show how much we care about their child as more than just an RBI or ERA machine, it is generally received as a positive by everyone involved.

Below is the quote I use in every parent meeting very prominently on a slide. Some college coach said it, and I try hard to remember it every time i get angry with an athlete. I don't always succeed, but I'm getting better. I have no idea what kind of coaches or leaders my daughters will have when they're old enough to be involved in extracurriculars, but I believe if they have a similar mind set we'll get along just fine. 

"Every player we have, someone poured their life and soul into that young man. They are giving us their treasure, and it’s our job to give them back that young man intact."

I would suggest in both cases the coaches where idiots. 

Why in the world would you tell someone not to shoot in basketball.  That happened to a friend of ours.  The kids was hot from outside -- draining threes.  Could miss.  Coach told him to stop.  Made him hesitant the rest of the year.  The issue isn't shooting/not shooting.  It is are you taking the good shot.  IMO, telling a player not to shoot (as long as they are taking the good shot) is grounds for dismissal -- the whole idea is to score more points is it not.

And giving up a home run happens if you pitch long enough.  Again, an idiot coach.  Guys like these should be glad I'm not the AD. 

Look, most parents are reasonable.  Most actually can evaluate their kids "talent."  Most problems are due to lack of communication.  If you communicate expectations, are honest and fair you'll have almost zero problems.  It is the not knowing and outright BS that frustrates parents. 

Golfman - Welcome back!  Was great watching your son's team in Omaha.  

My view/experience - communication helps, but still there are problems with some parents.  Sometimes enough problems that it becomes uncomfortable for the rest.  Our generation of parents has done many, many things right.  But as a group, we have too hard of a time letting go, not over-protecting and letting our kids learn how pick their own-selves up.

Its hard for me too.  But it sure is rewarding when you realize your son/daughter can do just that.

Golfman, I'd second the welcome back.  Must be fun watching the kid play in Omaha.  The point of my post was to give one example where, imo, a parent should intervene and one where the player took care of it.  Yet, both were extreme. 

The basketball coach's point apparently was that if my daughter kept shooting, then none of the other girls would develop.  At the time, we were easily winning our conference since most schools didn't have an answer for my daughter.  We ended up barely in 3rd place and didn't win another game.  The reality of that in the long run was that my daughter never played basketball again despite the HS Varsity coach asking her each year to reconsider.  In the second scenario, my daughter was in high school then and was more mature.  She wanted to take care of the problem and leave us out of it.  It is a shame that she no longer wanted to pitch.  At the time, that "rec pitcher" was considered by many to be the best in the area.  Still, she took a major step in growing up by taking care of this herself.  In college now, she doesn't hesitate to go in and talk to the coach so I guess it paid off in the long run.