pass ball / wild pitch?

I could be wrong, but if the pitch hits the dirt before it reaches the catcher, it's a wild pitch. Other than that, if the pitch could have been caught by the catcher, it is a passed ball. In other words, if the pitch is so far off the plate, the catcher could not reasonably reach it, it's a wild pitch. In your scenario, sounds like the the ball hit the dirt first, so wild pitch. If it didn't hit the dirt 1st, it's a passed ball.

Really no different than an infield play to first. If the 1st baseman (catcher) reasonably should have made the play, error on the 1B (catcher). Any time the fielder (pitcher) throws in the dirt, it is the fielder's (pitcher's) error (WP).

Hope that makes sense.

In this case I gave the pitcher a wild pitch. However I was wondering since it was on the plate but did hit the ground behind the plaste if there was not an obligation on the catchers part to block the ball, or would that be considered a "over and above" normal play?

I know you will be shocked by the bias here but ball in dirt goes as wild pitch.

Seriously though I do our books and I have given my son a passed ball on a ball in the dirt that I felt he short armed and should have caught on the fly. Basically being lazy.

Another one of the lovely judgment calls left to the scorekeeper at the time.

Curious to hear from other folks who do scoring. Do you consider the skill of an individual catcher when scoring these plays? Meaning you would in theory have differing expectations for this call based on the ability of the particular catcher.

My son is a pitcher as well, so I know where you're coming from. There are certainly balls that hit in the dirt that the catcher (in my mind) should have made the play on. However, bottom line, if it's in the dirt, it's a wild pitch.

I see tons of plays in the infield where an infielder throws one in the dirt to 1B, that the 1st baseman should have made the scoop. But if it hits dirt 1st, the E goes to the fielder regardless of the effort (or lack thereof) of the 1st baseman.

Son also a pitcher, Rules are stated pretty clear on this one, that if the ball touches the ground or plate before reaching the catcher, it is a wild pitch. I do understand wanting to give PB to catchers that are being a little lazy and sometimes catchers call for those nasty curves that bounce in the dirt! (Hey, they asked for that pitch, shouldn't it be on them if they can't handle it!) Just kidding really. The other thing of course that a scorer needs to be aware of regarding passed balls and wild pitches is if a runner scores that normally wouldn't have without the wild pitch or passed ball. Wild pitches are on the pitcher and contribute to earned runs just as a walk or hit batter would. Passed balls are considered errors(but not counted as errors on the scoreboard), so if that runner that advanced from 1st to 3rd on a passed ball and then scores on a ground out, that run would be unearned. Of course these situations always have to be looked at after the inning is complete and reconstructed as if no errors or passed balls occurred. If the next 2 or 3 batters after the passed ball all get hits that would have normally scored the run, then it's earned.

OBR has definitions (see below) but it's ultimately up to you as the official scorer to decide...

10.13 WILD PITCHES AND PASSED BALLS
A wild pitch is defined in Rule 2.00 (Wild Pitch). A passed ball is a statistic charged against a catcher whose action has caused a runner or runners to advance, as set forth in this Rule 10.13.
(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered
ball is so high, so wide or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball
by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official
scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches
the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the
catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is
a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official scorer shall score a
strikeout and a wild pitch.
(b) The official scorer shall charge a catcher with a passed ball when the catcher fails to
hold or to control a legally pitched ball that should have been held or controlled with
ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third
strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official scorer
shall score a strikeout and a passed ball.
Rule 10.13 Comment: The official scorer shall not charge a wild pitch or passed ball if the
defensive team makes an out before any runners advance. For example, if a pitch touches the ground and eludes the catcher with a runner on first base, but the catcher recovers the ball and throws to second base in time to retire the runner, the official scorer shall not charge the pitcher with a wild pitch. The official scorer shall credit the advancement of any other runner on the play as a fielder’s choice. If a catcher drops a pitch, for example, with a runner on first base, but the catcher recovers the ball and throws to second base in time to retire the runner, the official scorer shall not charge the catcher with a passed ball.
The official scorer shall credit the advancement of any other runner on the play as a fielder’s choice.
See Rules 10.07(a), 10.12(e) and 10.12(f) for additional scoring rules relating to wild pitches and
passed balls.

I wish I had read this earlier. During the HS season I overheard the scorer tell the parent of the pitcher that he scored a passed ball on the catcher on a ball that hit the plate and got mixed up in his legs when he tried to block it.
I told them if it hits the ground before it gets to the catcher it's a wild pitch but I didn't know the rule number... now I do... 10.13.

If the ball hits the dirt before the SS picks it up, who gets the error? The pitcher?

This is a pet peeve of mine. If the 1B and C cant catch a ball in the dirt, it should be an error.

If a pitcher can't throw a pitch all the way to the catcher or a SS can't throw the ball all the way to 1B...well ... pet peeve of mine. If the ground was always uniform smooth and the ball always bounced the same way each time...yeah right. 10.13 lays it all out.

quote:

Originally posted by Ninthmanout:
If a pitcher can't throw a pitch all the way to the catcher

A pitcher's job is not to throw it to the catcher - it's to get the batter out.

/ son is a pitcher

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
If the ball hits the dirt before the SS picks it up, who gets the error? The pitcher?

This is a pet peeve of mine. If the 1B and C cant catch a ball in the dirt, it should be an error.

Huh???

I won't even argue the one due to my obvious bias.

But you think an infielder who can move both feet and oftentimes center up the ball is the same as trying to stretch for the throw, keep your foot on the bag, and pick the ball out of the dirt on who knows what angle is the same degree of difficulty???

Not even close to the same. There is good reason why the infielder gets the error and will continue to do so as long as baseball is played and scored.

Oh well, we all could argue all day about this. This topic was on how something (wild pitch or passed ball) is supposed to be scored and the rules define it really well without much wiggle room, especially for a pitch in the dirt.


10.13 WILD PITCHES AND PASSED BALLS

A wild pitch is defined in Rule 2.00 (Wild Pitch). A passed ball is a statistic
charged against a catcher whose action has caused a runner or runners to advance, as set
forth in this Rule 10.13.
(a) The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered
ball is so high, so wide or so low that the catcher does not stop and control the ball
by ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. The official
scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches
the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the
catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is
a wild pitch, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official scorer shall score a
strikeout and a wild pitch.
(b) The official scorer shall charge a catcher with a passed ball when the catcher fails to
hold or to control a legally pitched ball that should have been held or controlled
with ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the
third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official
scorer shall score a strikeout and a passed ball.

Well guys, I’m sure this is gonna twist a few pantaloons, but you know me, in for a penny, in for a pound.

I’ve been over this particular thing about a million times over the last 15 years, with people up and down the food chain from fans to members of various rules committees, and it always comes out the same way. If the game is being played under OBR, if the ball touches the ground, the scorer has absolutely no choice in the matter! The word SHALL was used specifically to remove any judgment from that particular situation. Of course if the scorer doesn’t see the ball hit the ground, it’s a different matter.

The official scorer shall charge a pitcher with a wild pitch when a legally delivered ball touches
the ground or home plate before reaching the catcher and is not handled by the catcher, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance.

Now, since this site supposedly deal with HS ball, one needs to be careful to make sure he mentions what rule set the game is being played under. More often than not, during the spring HS season, the game is being played under NFHS rules. But when that season’s over, all kinds of rule sets come into play. Rather than try to talk about every one of the many different sets, for the sake of discussion I’ll assume we’re talking about the regular spring HS season with the game under NFHS rules, even though I realize the OP was talking about a game played after the HS season was over.

9-6-1 of the NFHS rules states: A wild pitch shall be charged in the summary to the pitcher when a ball legally delivered to the batter is so high, or so low(including any pitch that touches the ground in front of home plate), or so far away from home plate that the catcher does not stop or control it with ordinary effort so that the batter-runner advances to first base or any runner advances a base.

In case you didn’t notice, there’s a very substantial difference in those two rules, and it has to do with where the pitch touches the ground. If the game is played under any rule set and the ball touches the ground in front of home plate, the scorer has no absolutely choice in the matter. It’s a wild pitch. Under OBR the scorer has no choice if the ball hits the ground anywhere before reaching the catcher. It has to be scored a wild pitch.

But, there’s a problem between the two rule sets if the ball hits the ground somewhere between the front of the plate and the catcher. If the game is under NFHS rules, the scorer has to use his judgment, and we all know how many problems that causes. Heck, look at the difference of opinions here. Once judgment enters the picture, all kinds of other garbage that really has nothing at all to do with the play starts being taken into consideration.

What I do is eliminate the problem by using the bible, and just go by OBR. The reason I do that is, it makes no sense to me to make the rule tougher on a HS catcher than it would be on a ML catcher! So, y’all can do as you please and argue all you like, but when the pitch hits the ground, it doesn’t have to be difficult scoring what happened.

Stats,

The difference in the rules you point out has caused no end of turmoil on my daughter's HS softball team. Mainly because just about everything is scored a PB based on our scorekeeper not understanding the FED rule (our scorer doesn't believe anything that doesn't bounce in front of home plate can be called a WP). I think she and the catcher's mom are actually feuding over it. When I go, I keep my own book and stats. I probably have 80-90% WP / 10-20% PB, she's about the opposite.

I tried helping her early in the season, but realized quickly I shouldn't bother her until she actually got the score of the game wrong, which happened at least five times and never in our favor.

I use OBR guidelines as well when scoring the boys, for the same reason you do. Nobody has ever questioned me about it. I believe technically this approach complies with FED other than providing the option of scoring a ball that bounces behind home plate as a PB. I can't say I've ever scored one this way, but FED provides the option.

The 1st time I got involved with FED as far as rules goes, was back in I think 2002 or 3. My buddy and I were doing the stats for the HS team, each with different software. But we kept getting different OBPs for our stuff than the local paper did, and we were the one’s providing the numbers they used for the computations. They weren’t off by much, and some not even at all, but it was driving us both nuts.

We screwed around for at least a week trying to figure out what was wrong, when finally I found it pretty much by luck. The paper was using all sac rather than just sac flies, and it threw things off, just enough to notice. I contacted the paper and told them what the problem was, and they told me they’d check into it. About 3 days later I got a call from the sports editor, and he said he’d looked into it, and found out that I was doing the calculations wrong! I asked how he came up with that, and he read me the rule right from the NFHS rulebook. It said to use all sacs, so he said he wasn’t changing the computation.

It took me a while, but I finally contacted the chairman of the NFHS rules committee at the time. He said he wasn’t aware of the problem, but would take care of it ASAP. The next book that came out had the change in it, and I got a note from the guy saying he’d heard from many different people that they’d had to change their computations.

Anyhoo, that was the beginning of my vendetta to try to get rid of all the different rule sets. Its really terrible in baseball because everyone seems to want their own kingdom, and kingdoms are nearly impossible to get rid of. It wouldn’t be so bad if all the sub-organizations would keep their book up with OBR within a year, but most don’t bother to do it at all.

Another thing stopping it, of course is $$$. Its unbelievable how many books are out there explaining the differences in the rule sets. And of course there’s the flat out hardheadedness of many umpires who won’t add their voice to those who aspire for one rulebook. I guess its that they don’t want to admit what a PITA it is to have different rules. But how stupid is it to not admit the subtle differences can cause “issues”, and no one can tell me that no umpires get mixed up in applying the different rules when they swap from organization to organization.

The problem with the SK for your daughter’s team is very common, and it adds to why people don’t trust HS numbers. If you’d like, I’ll PM you something that might help.

Stats, I've given up on the validity of these stats long ago. Frankly, it just doesn't matter. SB stats are even harder to come by outside of a limited access team web site, so the damage of a "bad" SK is even less than baseball.

To me its more of a labor of love to try and just get it right.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
Stats, I've given up on the validity of these stats long ago. Frankly, it just doesn't matter. SB stats are even harder to come by outside of a limited access team web site, so the damage of a "bad" SK is even less than baseball.

To me its more of a labor of love to try and just get it right.

Yeah, but its kind of a shame that we’ve come down so far as a society, that we don’t even want to put out enough effort to do something as trivial as keeping score at a SB game correctly.

But the reason I do it, isn’t because I think its gonna make a hoot of difference in a scholarship or a million dollar contract. I do it so I can understand the game better, and see if the things people say have any truth to them. IOW, the stats I generate are my BS meter.

It pretty easy for me to tell when someone is just spouting clichés or things he’s heard, or if he actually has an understanding of what goes on.

I'm with you my friend...

I do my best and try and get it right but I have a confession.

Our HS coach gave me a speech when I took the job. I told him "I'm a straight up guy". He said, "Well, first time I went into an all conference meeting they flash up the stats of some kid hitting .600. We played that same team in two tournament games and three conference games and had him 1-12 against us. They played 30 games. You tell me what he had to hit in those other 25 games to hit .600"

I thought for a few seconds and came up with something over .800. His comment was "exactly and he had three holes in his swing, no way he hit over .300"

He told me he lost a deserving all conference nominee over this. The fact that a first team nomination for "all this or that" just makes us parents feel good and isn't really any more valuable than the miss-spelled name on the cheap certificate isn't relevant in the discussion.

Bottom line, he asked me to round up for his kids so he has something to work with to help them get those meaningless certificates. When in doubt, I score hits on offense and I give my pitchers the benefit on defense.

One of the reasons I discount stats is because this "stuff" goes on all the time. If I do it, everyone else must be as well.

JMoff,

I hear you talkin’, and can honestly say I’ve witnessed the same thing, as we all have. In fact, I’ve called out more than one coach over the years, including opeds in the sports section from time to time, and phone calls to ADs and principals. But I’m in a very different situation than most HS SKs, not having a kid even going to the school, plus I set up the “ground rules” before I took the job.

I keep score, I do the stats, I call in the scores, I post the stats on-line (we use MaxPreps), and I write the team newsletter. In exchange, no one but me touches the book, EVER! After every game I send the HC all of the game stats in several different forms, and if the HC, and only the HC, disagrees with the way something is marked, we’ll discuss it. In 5 years we’ve had maybe 30 disagreements about a hit or an error on a play, and each season the number goes down. We’ve each won about half the “discussions”, but there’s never been any animosity about it. Most times its been about an opinion, and we each bend a bit and get on with it. I always win the rule’s battles.

In the end, while the **** you spoke of is indulged in as a matter of course and is considered “normal”, I can honestly say, you are communicating with someone who absolutely refuses to participate in that kind of cheating. I’m not saying I’m any more moral than anyone else, just in a much different situation. I admit that it hurts to see our players not be amongst the leaders in many different categories, but in the end, we’ve always had as many or more kids be ALL-whatever than any team around, despite the numbers. A lot of it stems from the fact that our coach doesn’t have to rationalize our player’s numbers, because the other coaches know they’re valid.

The bottom line is, no matter what the scorer does, if the HC doesn’t have integrity, it wouldn’t matter if St Peter was the scorer. I happen to score for a coach who has a lot of integrity, its too bad there aren’t more guys like him running around. ;(

It is always LOL time when the local paper list 5 players from the same team with batting averages over .415.

A HS team needs 14 hits per game to have a .400 team average. The odd part always is the team with the stacked lineup is 7-5 and is averaging 5 runs per game.

Makes me wonder if walks are being counted as hits!

If you really want a LOL moment, go to one of the stat sites like MaxPreps, and look at the leaders. In a lot of cases its because the book has been given to one of the players in the dugout, and he’s doing nothing but being a friend. In other cases, the scorer simply doesn’t know how to keep score very well. And in still other cases, someone is flat out cheating, believing that false numbers will somehow turn “average” players or a team, into great ones.

In the end, the only real consequence is, the only ones fooled are the people who have absolutely no say-so in anything meaningful. Of course they also fool ignorant sport’s writers looking for a story, and do have an effect on ignorant parents who look at the numbers without real understanding, and make silly decisions because of it.

So true. Did stats through travel ball for kids team. One night in a hotel after the drinking began the parents started grilling me about how I scored.

I got tired of it after 5 minutes and said ...look if you think you son's 10 year old batting average means anything you need to think again becasue it doesn't. The stunned looks were priceless.

Love it!

I think every scorer who really tries to do a good job has had to do the same thing sooner or later. I sure wish I knew how the human mind manages to take something like a BA, and get it all twisted around to give it a meaning entirely different than what its for.

Another thing I wish I understood, was at the youth level, how the only person a BA should really mean anything to, the player, is usually the only one who doesn’t give a rat’s patoo! So in the end, instead of a player using it as a metric to give him some feedback about how he’s doing personally and in comparison with others, dads, coaches, and fans are using it to judge his intrinsic worth.

I think a lot of the BS that goes on is because there’s not a deep understanding of the game like their once was. Heck, I’ll bet that right now, not half of the ball players in the game can even compute a BA correctly, without help from a spreadsheet or the like, with built in formulae. If you don’t know what makes up a number, there’s really no way to have an understanding about what it means.

Not just the players and parents. I had to educate the coaches on OBP and ERA's!

The coaches and I used the stats as a guidepost but not a driver to get some facts about how the kids were trending. Confirmation of what they were seeing with thier eyes in games coupled with things like practice habits and attitude. It was only then when batting order changes or pitcher's roles where changed. We never got hung up on the numbers themselves only if a player was slumping or finding his stroke and confimring with facts. It helps when the coach entrusts the scorer to be the final arbiter of the stats and let's everyone know that ther will be no debate on the subject.

It became very clear that we ran a merit system and performance in practice and games drove playing time and spot in the batting order. Over a 4 year run we had the same core of 9 players which is very rare in travel ball.

...and that is exactly how the stats should be used.

When I made my confession a few days ago, I should've added that I "round up or down" on maybe 2-3 plays per week and that may be overstated. I still pretty much score straight up.

Whenever I score games I don't care about, I do a much better job. I think once you remove that team/result bias you can do a much better job at it.

In a sloppy game it's still fun to compare the home vs. away box scores. You'll get 2-3 differences. In a well played game they'll be close\identical.

We don't post on Max Preps since we don't like posting scouting reports for our opposition. I never understood why anyone would actually use Max Preps until the season was over.

A friend is a football guy and he loves Max Preps. He does advanced scouting and he finds nothing more valuable than knowing who he needs to watch before the game starts.

The downside is, nobody knows what are boys are doing, which is why I'm in favor of posting everything after the season concludes. Don't know why we didn't do that this year.

What about this one.

Runner on 1B is attempting to steal as an obvious WP is delivered (ball slipped out of the pitchers hand and went high over the catcher to the backstop). The runner never breaks stride and ends up on 3B.

Is that considered a 2 base WP or a SB and WP from 2nd to 3rd base?

I'd score SB for 2B and WP for 3B. Can't assume that the defense would throw him out at 2nd so if it is a clear steal attempt I score SB. This would be true even if the ball short hopped the catcher who blocked it but could not make a play on the runner.

quote:

We don't post on Max Preps since we don't like posting scouting reports for our opposition. I never understood why anyone would actually use Max Preps until the season was over.

Scouting? What are you going to find out from the stats on maxpreps that isn't obvious to the most casual observer?

SB for advance to second and WP for advance to third, agree with Luv Baseball on that one.

Hawk - granted there aren't many secrets and you know a lot from observation but there's always some additional information to be gained from stats that are posted by the team.

There are always a few "new kids" on the opposition. Knowing that the sophomore hitting 7th is batting .500 (even if its an inflated number), you might not groove him a first pitch fastball. If he's 30-32 in stolen bases, that gives you a heads up that he'll be running.

Sometimes the four hole hitter who was all everything last year is now batting .285 (even if its an inflated number) with 25K's in 50 AB's. That's good to know as well.

About half of our HS schedule is played against teams we only play once. Why let them know anything ahead of time? Let them learn it the first time through the order... Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
...and that is exactly how the stats should be used.

When I made my confession a few days ago, I should've added that I "round up or down" on maybe 2-3 plays per week and that may be overstated. I still pretty much score straight up.

Whenever I score games I don't care about, I do a much better job. I think once you remove that team/result bias you can do a much better job at it.

Which is why I love doing it the way I’m doing it now. No kid on the team, no personal ties to the coach, only casual acquaintances with the parents, and the same for the players. They all know me and I know them, but the only time we meet is at a game. Heck, I could pick up and score for a different team next year and it honestly wouldn’t bother me a bit.

quote:

In a sloppy game it's still fun to compare the home vs. away box scores. You'll get 2-3 differences. In a well played game they'll be close\identical.

I’m not so sure they’d be that close because of all the different qualities of scorers out there, but it wouldn’t be all that bad in any case.

quote:

We don't post on Max Preps since we don't like posting scouting reports for our opposition. I never understood why anyone would actually use Max Preps until the season was over.

A friend is a football guy and he loves Max Preps. He does advanced scouting and he finds nothing more valuable than knowing who he needs to watch before the game starts.

The downside is, nobody knows what are boys are doing, which is why I'm in favor of posting everything after the season concludes. Don't know why we didn't do that this year.

Well, I can’t miss the opportunity to comment on this one since it’s a topic very close to my heart.

When I 1st started scoring for this coach, he had had a tremendous amount of success at a different school, and had taken over a brand new and bigger program. I had always posted stats on my web page as well as whatever the stat central was for the league, from LL right through when my boy quit playing in college, and I planned on doing it with the team as well. But, since you need a password to post on MP, I asked if he had one.

He did, and he gave it to me, but said all he wanted posted on MP were the roster, schedule, and scores, for the same reason you don’t like to, but also because he felt the players didn’t need the distraction of trying to put up stats when the object was to play as a team. It was OK by me since it was less work for me, but I still posted the numbers on my site. At the end of the year he ok’d me entering the numbers, and I did.

The next year there was a change. When I asked for the roster, he told me the parents had gotten together and asked to have the numbers put on MP. He told them that he refused to do it, but that if I wanted to, it was fine with him, and I did. That was in 2008, and since then the change in his philosophy has been exactly what I thought it would be, once he really tried it and didn’t just accept what he THOUGHT.

I don’t know about what can be learned about other FB teams as far as scouting goes, but for baseball its pretty much nothing, at least from the stats MP and others like it provide. Yeah, you could identify the kids most likely to try a steal, but who would “groove” a pitch to any hitter on purpose? That just doesn’t make a lot of sense. In general, a lineup is set the way it is for a reason, and that doesn’t change much from coach to coach. And HS baseball is an extremely small community where there aren’t a whole lot of secrets. It doesn’t take too long for people to learn about the latest super stud or super bust.

If someone really thinks they’re gonna get some info that’s gonna help them win a game from the MP stats, God bless ‘em. Most coaches I know don’t have the time or energy to pour over another team’s stats because they’re too bizzy trying to figure out their own. Since 2008, I’ve been one of the very few people in the entire country to post every single available stat MaxPreps has to offer. Every year we’ve had very successful teams, been in the playoffs, and we’re in the largest school category. So if all those stats are helping other coaches, its not enough to have done us a lot of damage.

Here’s what I know. ML teams get the very best stats, have the very best scouts, the very best managers, the very best players, with access to the very best minds analyzing everything, and it still doesn’t work very well all the time. But, to each his own. However, like our coach, I’d pretty much bet anything that if next year you posted the stats, you’d never notice one bit of difference as far as play went. Now you might hear more from parents, but I seriously doubt it would make one whit of difference in the W/L column.

We posted stats on MP as late as the 2009 season and simply decided it was TMI to be posted publicly, as long as the parents didn't complain (which they haven't).

I know our coaches look at the stats of the teams we play and they at least think they get useful information. Who really knows? I'm on record as saying the stats are mostly garbage anyway so does it really help them? If they think it does, then it probably does.

There are other reasons not to post them up there. The kid in the ten game slump probably doesn't want them seen by colleges. The kid on the ten game tear probably does.

I know when I look at the game by game stats from other teams, I have lots of "They gave that kid a hit on the ground ball through the legs? Are you kidding me?" type thoughts. It must put pressure on the average scorer when the parents all run home thinking JR was 3-4 and a 1-4 is posted and they start making phone calls.

To each his own, however. If it works for you keep doing it. I'm just not a fan of it.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
We posted stats on MP as late as the 2009 season and simply decided it was TMI to be posted publicly, as long as the parents didn't complain (which they haven't).

I know our coaches look at the stats of the teams we play and they at least think they get useful information. Who really knows? I'm on record as saying the stats are mostly garbage anyway so does it really help them? If they think it does, then it probably does.

Like I said, to each to each his own.

quote:

There are other reasons not to post them up there. The kid in the ten game slump probably doesn't want them seen by colleges. The kid on the ten game tear probably does.

Well, I’m sure some of that goes on, but once they get to HS, if they don’t understand that no college coach really gives a rat’s fanny about HS numbers unless they’re really something special, they prolly don’t have a lot of mental maturity about the whole thing.

quote:

I know when I look at the game by game stats from other teams, I have lots of "They gave that kid a hit on the ground ball through the legs? Are you kidding me?" type thoughts. It must put pressure on the average scorer when the parents all run home thinking JR was 3-4 and a 1-4 is posted and they start making phone calls.

It only puts pressure on scorers who don’t understand the job. As far as the parents, players, and in some cases scouts questioning me, now-a-days that only happens with those who don’t know me very well. The last couple of seasons, there’s been a little “pool” where the old timers throw in a buck, and guess the 1st date some parent is gonna contact me about his/her kid’s stats. The 1st season they did it, it only took 1 game, but last year it took 4.

But for me it’s a chance to educate the folks, so I don’t mind taking as much time as necessary to explain things. I think it also helps that I’m always open to being corrected. Heck, for a normal game, when I’m doing data entry I making literally thousands of keystrokes, and as much as I’ve tried to make my program catch typos, I’d have to really be a fool to think I never make mistakes. In fact, one of the reasons I’m converting my program is to help cut out the keystrokes.

BTW, I’m scoring a ML game every day now with the program to try to see what happens in real tests. I gotta say, its really pretty cool. I stomp on a couple bugs every day, and try to put in something “major” every day as well. It still a ways off from where I want it, but its not bad.

quote:

To each his own, however. If it works for you keep doing it. I'm just not a fan of it.

I like to see everyone posting numbers because it gives a much better idea about what’s REALLY going on. I’ve got a pretty good working relationship with the folks over at MP, and I’ve had more than a little bit of input into what they do. But the one thing I think would provide the most educational information, is something not many people post, and that’s number of pitches.

Here in Ca its not a big deal at all because of our state limitations. But in other states where the limits are far different, it would be very interesting to see how pitchers are being utilized. If you haven’t seen it, here’s a little database I took the time last year to develop. http://www.infosports.com/scor...images/pitlimits.pdf

I would like to see better tracking of pitch counts as well and would support any rule REQUIRING coaches to keep track and post them.

I've seen some pretty incredible things at the HS level, thankfully only with our opposition and only from a handful of schools / coaches.

I have seen your data base of rules and it's interesting how different the different state's rules are.

My home state of Arizona's rule is shameful. No more than 36 outs within 36 consecutive hours requiring two days rest? Why even have a rule? There are plenty of other states that have similar rules. They must've come from the dead ball era.

We're way passed pass ball / wild pitch aren't we?

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
We're way passed pass ball / wild pitch aren't we?

Yes we are.

But ya know what’s a shame, when you try to talk about pitch counts in any of the regular forums, its almost impossible to have a rational discussion because of very different philosophies.

It’s a lot like the BS politics we’re seeing from out magnificent lawmakers all over the country, where people are so set in their beliefs, they won’t even entertain anyone else’s. I’m so tired of being accused of wanting to do away with coaches having any control because I’m so locked into hard PCs, I could vomit.

Fortunately, in an arena where the “normal” person is a scorer who wants to do nothing but see the game get better for everyone, we can usually discuss the topic without going all nuts and running around with our hair on fire.

To Stats and JM, I have been too busy to get on and read the threads lately, but enjoyed the exchange between you guys on this one. I could definetly hang out with you guys and beat this poor dead horse some more. LOL.

It's been a busy summer with a college player playing a summer league following his freshman year and a younger son just playing his first summer of high school baseball. We're about to melt here in Oklahoma and Kansas.

My wife comments to me every year how surprised she is at the number of parents that don't know how to keep score or know the rules. Of course I tell her it doesn't surprise me because even if they don't know the rules, it doesn't stop them from expressing their opinion on them. LOL

My wife has been my partner in scorekeeping for the last 21 years. Before kids and when they were little, she scored my softball games. All through little league, she scored while I coached. Now that the kids are older, many times we are at two different parks scoring the game and compare books when we both get home. I just want to express that I am a lucky man to have a knowledgable wife who loves baseball, understands baseball, and many times lets the baseball control her emotions. We even watched a game on TV on out wedding night (Cubs vs. Padres) Cubs win 7-4! I won too!

It always gives me great delight to hear her explaining infield fly rule or a player re-entering the batting order or why a fielders choice isn't a hit to some parent who doesn't understand these things.

I know some parents think we're crazy because sometimes we openly debate how we think a call should go.

Anyway, I don't know too many women who enjoy their husband's walking in the door and asking, "How would you score this?" But mine does.

OK,

I don’t know that I’d want my wife to be that much of a partner. Its bad enough I can’t win any arguments at home, I’d hate to lose my last bastion of freedom and superiority!

But seriously, in day gone by, it was “normal” to hear many people explaining the rules or how to keep score to those who didn’t know. It seems that at the lower levels at least, stats have become much like the radar gun in baseball. People see a big number and immediately judge the person putting it up to be “superior” in every way, rather than judging them by the results they produce.

IOW, a HS pitcher who can throw 90+ is automatically assumed to be fantastic, even if he couldn’t find the plate with a searchlight, just like a player who bats .450+ is automatically assumed to be fantastic as well, even if for some reason when you see him he can’t do dink.

Couldn't agree more Stats.

I did books for my son's team. One of ours hit just under .400 but also on pace to strike out 40 times in 100 ABs and almost never walked. IMO we had several boys hitting .100 points lower that were much more productive.

By season's end guy I coached with figured it out as well. Kind of weird having kid hitting almost .400 batting last in you lineup

BackstopDad,

That you noticed something not picked up on at all by many, or well after you buy others, is very common among us “bookkeepers”. Part of the reason is of course that many people just go by what the conventional thinking is, in your case a high BA means a great hitter. But in reality, those with baseball acumen understand there’s a lot more than BA that determines a player’s worth to the team as a hitter.

I think we “bookkeepers” pick up on things such as what you did because we spend so much time with those numbers, while most others only see the final result which usually doesn’t tell much of a story. I found that out many years ago, when I posted stats like BA with nothing more than the player’s name and his BA, and when I’d look at the list I noticed how little it meant.

That’s why as the years have gone by, the stats I produce have become more and more inclusive of other things that help paint a better picture of what I’m trying to show the person looking. If you get a chance, take a look at http://www.infosports.com/scorekeeper/ and check out the Final 2011 Stats on the left side of the page, and you should be able to see what I mean.

But to be fair, one of the things that makes it tough is, people have different personal definitions of what things mean. “Productive” is certainly one of those things. What your definition is prolly different than mine because we value things differently. All in all its pretty darn complicated!

Speaking of "bad scorekeepers", my daughter played in a softball tournament this weekend. Since the temp was only 116 on Saturday, we put our sweaters on and played anyway...

In one game (played on a no new inning after 1:15 time limit) our opposition argued for at least 10 minutes total on two different situations. One was the count. Everyone else in the ball park had 3-2, this guy wanted strike three. Still in the first, he argues about number of outs being three instead of the two everyone else had. Only four batters had come up, one scored and one was on second so he was wrong. Problem was he wouldn't let go and the umpire was unsure enough he checked multiple times. I didn't have our book (just my own) and apparently we didn't give a decisive answer to the issue, so the discussion lingered.

Anyway, I watched their scorekeeper the rest of the game from my perch a story up outside the sports bar (under the misters). He was a coach, frequently putting his book down for several batters at a time, talking to parents, pouring water over his head after taking his shirt off, etc. Basically, he wasn't paying attention.

The tricky part on the three out thing was a strike three that was an illegal pitch sending the batter back to the plate. She then got a hit. If you weren't paying close attention, you'd have missed that it wasn't actually a strikeout. I was surprised we didn't go another ten minute delay on a batting out of order call later on...

Please give your books to someone who will actually watch the game and doesn't suffer from ADD. Primarily, the scorekeeper needs to be able to count runs and outs. Find someone who can do that much and have them sit next to me or OK Heat's wife or pretty much anyone else with a book. It's not hard and doesn't take long to learn. I learned as an eight year old from a nice old lady watching little league games.

When we go to games now, my wife has a book and my mother in law has a book. I taught them both. Sometimes I don't even score myself, I just help one of them. It's not hard, you just have to pay attention...