pass ball / wild pitch?

Isn’t it a shame that such simple common sense advice has to even be given?

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
Speaking of "bad scorekeepers", my daughter played in a softball tournament this weekend. Since the temp was only 116 on Saturday, we put our sweaters on and played anyway...

But it's a dry heat! LOL

When we go to games now, my wife has a book and my mother in law has a book. I taught them both. Sometimes I don't even score myself, I just help one of them. It's not hard, you just have to pay attention...

This is so true. It also is such a good way to stay involved in the game and a great way to look back when you forget how a run got scored or who got that hit or made that error, etc.

The other thing that drives my wife crazy are the parents that attend the games and just talk nonstop about anything but the game, but then ask her between each half inning what the score is.

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
…The other thing that drives my wife crazy are the parents that attend the games and just talk nonstop about anything but the game, but then ask her between each half inning what the score is.

A couple of years back, I was honestly ready to hang up the pencil for just that reason, but a visit from my sister changed that. I’d mentioned that I was really sick and tire of listening to all the BS during the games, and she gave me her BOSE noise reduction headset. Of course they don’t block out all of the BS, but that background din that never stops is gone. Its made the whole experience much more pleasant because the game is much easier to concentrate on.

But what I really long for, is a scorer’s booth about 10’ up the middle of the backstop, with room for only one person, and completely soundproofed from both the constant crowd chatter, and that annoying, much too loud music everyone seems to feel is necessary at a HS baseball game.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by OK Heat:
…The other thing that drives my wife crazy are the parents that attend the games and just talk nonstop about anything but the game, but then ask her between each half inning what the score is.

A couple of years back, I was honestly ready to hang up the pencil for just that reason, but a visit from my sister changed that. I’d mentioned that I was really sick and tire of listening to all the BS during the games, and she gave me her BOSE noise reduction headset. Of course they don’t block out all of the BS, but that background din that never stops is gone. Its made the whole experience much more pleasant because the game is much easier to concentrate on.

But what I really long for, is a scorer’s booth about 10’ up the middle of the backstop, with room for only one person, and completely soundproofed from both the constant crowd chatter, and that annoying, much too loud music everyone seems to feel is necessary at a HS baseball game.

I'll pass the headset thing onto my wife, she does sometimes bring her ipod to listen to when a game gets frustrating to watch. It helps her from speaking her frustration out loud! I'll tell her to just score with it on.

I usually score from the pressbox at home games because I run the PA. I guess I'm guilty of the loud music thing, but I keep it PG and play a nice mix of oldies and current music that everyone seems to enjoy. It satisfies my teen year dream of being a DJ

I have a camera. Keeps my mouth shut.

About scoring - passed balls and wild pitches - this is why it is so important to have great catchers! Sometimes a set up pitch lands in the dirt. It has to be caught/stopped. As a mom of a pitcher, when you see the setup pitch skip to the backstop ...

Same thing with first basemen. Infielders sometimes make off balance throws towards the corner that need to be fielded....

The more I learn more about baseball rules (and strategy) the more I appreciate the game. Thus the camera.

55mom,

Like so many other things, having definitions really help with others understanding your perspectives and philosophies. FI, just looking at what you said, I’m assuming your definition of a “great catcher” is one who allows the fewest number of runners getting to move up because of either a poor job of catching/blocking balls he should have(PBs), or catching/blocking rotten pitches(WPs).

FWIW, I happen to agree that a catcher who does that is far more valuable than one with a howitzer for an arm, or a pop2pop time that makes angels swoon. Of course the more great things the C can do, the better, but if I had to pick the MOST valuable skill a catcher can possess, its catching/blocking pitches. Of course the best defense against balls getting past the catcher, is for the pitcher to keep the things out of the dirt!

A great catcher can do it all - imo most importantly - is one the pitcher has confidence in. So I guess the pitcher would like to believe he can throw anything and it won't get past the catcher.

(but that's just me!)

quote:

Originally posted by 55mom:
A great catcher can do it all - imo most importantly - is one the pitcher has confidence in. So I guess the pitcher would like to believe he can throw anything and it won't get past the catcher.

(but that's just me!)

Yeah, a great catcher can do it all, but I hope you realize that catchers like that are darn few and far between, while pitchers who can’t hit their butt with a base fiddle are all over the place. We could argue all day long about it, but please allow me o pass on this sage advice. It doesn’t come from me, but rather from a very good friend of mine who was a very successful pitching coach in the ML for over a decade.

I used to be a super staunch supporter of pitchers, my son being one, and was constantly pointing fingers at catchers as being often lacking in some way. One day when I was off on one of my rants, my friend told me he wanted me to think about something. He handed me a beer, and told me that while I was drinking it, he wanted me to think about what would happen on a ML team if a pitcher got called into pitch, and the catcher was the poorest excuse for a catcher there was, and the pitcher said he didn’t want to throw to him. Heck, I could had a hundred beers and the answer wouldn’t have changed one whit.

The game of baseball is simple to play when all your teammates are stars, but that never seems to happen in real game. So in the end, all that matters is that a player goes out there and does his job the best he’s able, no matter who the his supporting players are.

uh? We were arguing? I must have missed something. don't understand the turn of the conversation - unless when I said I take pictures to stay silent. It's the whiny parents who get me! sometimes you'd think the team was full of Shoeless Joe's, with only their son trying to win.

Of course we want the best of the best, no matter what position our son plays. I don't blame a player who may not have the skills or talent I would like to see displayed. He's doing his best. Fortunately, son has been on some great teams with great players.

and again, stats don't mean squat. In a HS game, ss was having a bad game. When the scorekeeper tried to score what where multiple errors, the coach wouldn't let him. So it looked like the pitcher was giving up hits when he wasn't.

55Mom - When my son was a freshman, we had a catcher...

I counted ten balls where runners advanced that season (wp+pb). One of those was in the one inning he didn't catch in 35 games.

Yes, a great catcher can make a difference, especially with a freshman pitcher on the mound. Forget WP & PB and think leadership...

quote:

Originally posted by 55mom:…
and again, stats don't mean squat. In a HS game, ss was having a bad game. When the scorekeeper tried to score what where multiple errors, the coach wouldn't let him. So it looked like the pitcher was giving up hits when he wasn't.

But that doesn’t mean stats don’t mean squat. What it means is, stats for a team who’s coach, SK, or statistician cheats don’t mean squat. I know darn well the stats I generate have a great deal of meaning because not only do I do my best to go by the rules, I spend countless hours checking and double-checking for typos, and I’d venture the guess that the stats generated by OK and JMoff’s are just as valid as mine.

Now when other people stick their rotten little fingers in there and start tweaking things, that’s where trouble starts. And that’s just another reason why I like the position I’m in so much. Our coach doesn’t even have the password to change the on-line stats, and he doesn’t have access to my program to affect anything else. I realize I’m quite lucky in that respect though, but to tell the truth, if coaches would keep their grubby little hands off the book, everyone would be a lot better off.

Maybe I should have said High School stats. I should also mention there is a controversy in NC about HS records. Funny how one set of books is different from another. Your books may be mlb accurate, but unfortunately, because of nudges in other stats, you may not be believed. Very frustrating I'm sure. otoh, cooked stats only harm players (and coaches) in the long run.

http://www.newsobserver.com/20...ybe-high-school.html

When my son was being recruited, the college coach ended up missing a game he wanted to see. Not only did he call our coach, he called the coach of the other team. Even though I'm sure college coaches do this all the time, it's a smart thing to do.

I'm certainly not calling into question you or your integrity! I wish more were understood the overall importance of accurate records.

55mom,

Probably “amateur stats” would have been more accurate. Trust me, its not just in NC where there’s controversies about HS records. Sadly, it goes on everywhere. But if you haven’t seen the official HS records before, there really is some background for the controversy. Take a look here and see if you think everything passes the smell test. But you must keep in mind that there are often huge discrepancies between two HS teams that get scheduled to play each other.
http://www.infosports.com/scor...er/images/hsrecs.pdf

As far as my numbers being questioned, I assure you its so seldom been a problem, I can’t even think of the last time my numbers came into question. The reason for that is, since I really try to do the books correctly and fairly, I very seldom have a player who does crazy good things like batting .500+ or having an ERA below 1.00, let alone below 0.50. Nope, if anyone looks at any of the players I’ve scored for, all they’ll see is “typical” kids doing “typical” things. Some do better than others, but no one has had crazy good numbers for more than a week or two.

Where a lot of these people make a big mistake is, no one would blink an eye if there was one kid on the team batting .600, but when the team average is .500, there’s a problem. If you take a look at these metrics, you’ll see one way I battle the problem. http://www.infosports.com/scor...ages/objpitching.pdf
http://www.infosports.com/scor...mages/objbatting.pdf

There are certain stats that are objective, i.e., there’s no judgment involved. I throw these into the overall package to give people the chance to honestly compare my numbers to theirs by throwing out all the “judgment”.

And you are certainly correct about “cooked stats” not helping anyone. They hurt a coach’s credibility, and certainly don’t help players either. About the only positive they do, is to put player’s names on the radar, but as soon as they’re looked at by someone with any kind of baseball acumen, they’re exposed.

I never took it for a second that my integrity was in question. Really. Now if you were a scorer of a team we play and questioned my numbers, then we’d have something to talk about over a tall, cold, adult beverage.

The score keepers at my son's high school will record a passed ball on any ball in the dirt that gets away from the catcher. No wonder the pitchers show really low ERA numbers. How can you compare pitchers if people are not keeping score correctly?
When I overheard them one day telling the parents of the pitcher that they recorded a passed ball on that ball that hit the plate... well now I know why the pitcher had such a low ERA. Rule 10.13!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Ninthmanout:
The score keepers at my son's high school will record a passed ball on any ball in the dirt that gets away from the catcher. No wonder the pitchers show really low ERA numbers. How can you compare pitchers if people are not keeping score correctly?
When I overheard them one day telling the parents of the pitcher that they recorded a passed ball on that ball that hit the plate... well now I know why the pitcher had such a low ERA. Rule 10.13!!!

You’re right on the money with your question. There is absolutely no way to compare players very accurately unless everyone at least follows the rules to a large degree.

You’ve touched on my of my “hot buttons”, but in fairness, I feel I have to present evidence that might at least mitigate what they are doing. You said Rule 10.13, which is from OBR and talks about PBs and WPs. But you said at your “son’s high school”, and HS technically isn’t governed by OBR. Its governed by NFHS rules, and this is one where there’s a major difference that can and often does cause problems.

Assuming you’ve read 10.13, you’ve seen that any pitch that hits the dirt and a runner advances MUST be scored a WP. That’s because of the very careful use of the word “SHALL” in that rule. So, in essence, if a scorer sees a ball hit the dirt in a game under OBR rules and a runner advances because of it, he’s supposed to score a WP. Now if he doesn’t see it hit the dirt and scores it a PB, it doesn’t make him a cheater. It just means he scored it the way he saw it.

IN HS though, Rule 9-6-1, it says a pitch SHALL be scored as a WP when it hits the dirt, but only if it hits the dirt in front of the plate. Other than that, the scorer’s judgment takes over. Now when you’ve watched as many games as I have, you’ll know that while there are some pitches that hit the dirt in front of home plate, most often it hits the dirt far after that, and sometimes only mere inches in front of the catcher.

Well, now you have a problem. Its one thing when there’s an old **** like me scoring the game, and quite something different when its some kid in the dugout, a coach, or some kid’s dad scoring the game. Players will tend to believe everything should be caught because most of them have never put on the “tools of ignorance”, so they don’t know how difficult it is. Coaches too tend to be very hard on all players when it comes to catching a ball, whether it’s a thrown ball or a hit ball. They tend to believe if you can reach it, you should catch it, and anyone who’s got a lot of experience watching baseball can tell you that’s a great philosophy, but one that simply doesn’t work. I won’t even try to guess why a parent scoring would score the way they do, but the fact is, all scorers tend to lean toward their team when making a close call, and some lean more than others.

In the end, I made a personal decision to use the OBR rule because I feel the NFHS rule punishes catchers and rewards pitchers unfairly. However, if someone feels differently, and decides to use the NFHS rule and his/her judgment, that doesn’t make them wrong, but it encourages exactly what you’ve noted.

Most of the posts on this come from a catcher's point of view or a pitcher's point of view. I have 2 sons, one is a pitcher and one is a catcher. They both agree that if the catcher asks for the change up or breaking ball in the dirt, he better be ready to block it. We all know what the rules say and I have read plenty about the catchers getting the short end of the stick. My son who catches says that if the ball hits in the dirt behind the plate and between the batters boxes, he should block it every time. You don't want a pitcher to throw strikes, you want him to hit his spots. Why should he be penalized for throwing it where he was told to? Sometimes a scorekeeper needs to use common sense. Not everything is cut and dried. That is what makes baseball such a great game.

quote:

Originally posted by TheCode:
Most of the posts on this come from a catcher's point of view or a pitcher's point of view. I have 2 sons, one is a pitcher and one is a catcher. They both agree that if the catcher asks for the change up or breaking ball in the dirt, he better be ready to block it. We all know what the rules say and I have read plenty about the catchers getting the short end of the stick. My son who catches says that if the ball hits in the dirt behind the plate and between the batters boxes, he should block it every time. You don't want a pitcher to throw strikes, you want him to hit his spots. Why should he be penalized for throwing it where he was told to? Sometimes a scorekeeper needs to use common sense. Not everything is cut and dried. That is what makes baseball such a great game.

That’s the kind of mentality that causes a lot of problems with how people view scorekeeping. While it may sound completely logical, how is an SK supposed to know the difference between a ball purposely thrown in the dirt, and one not? The NFHS rules don’t make it nearly as cut and dried as OBR does, but that’s why I always lean toward OBR on this one, and they lean toward the catcher. There’s absolutely no arguing about it for a scorer. If a pitch touches the dirt anywhere, then is failed to be caught, and a runner or the batter advances, it’s a wild pitch.

Now from a different perspective, even a common sense one, you might see things differently, but the scorer has no choice. S/he doesn’t get to ask the players if that’s what they intended, and that’s what makes this situation “cut and dried”.

Ball bounces before reaching the target it's on the player throwing the ball no matter what position or intent.

SS goes in the hole and makes a long one hop throw to first but the 1B doesn't come up with it. If it is not a basehit then it's E6. If it skips by and any runner advances there is a definate E6.

Here's another RF makes a throw to the plate that is a one hopper and gets by the catcher and the batter advances it's E9.

You cannot score for what should happen only what did happen. While it's a nice to think that catchers should block everything it's not something that should be expected. When it doesn't get blocked or even if it does and the runners advance it's on the originator from a scoring perspective. Coaches, players mom's and dad's may think differently and that's OK but when the stats are tabulated it's a WP.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Ball bounces before reaching the target it's on the player throwing the ball no matter what position or intent.

SS goes in the hole and makes a long one hop throw to first but the 1B doesn't come up with it. If it is not a basehit then it's E6. If it skips by and any runner advances there is a definate E6.

Here's another RF makes a throw to the plate that is a one hopper and gets by the catcher and the batter advances it's E9.

You cannot score for what should happen only what did happen. While it's a nice to think that catchers should block everything it's not something that should be expected. When it doesn't get blocked or even if it does and the runners advance it's on the originator from a scoring perspective. Coaches, players mom's and dad's may think differently and that's OK but when the stats are tabulated it's a WP.

Very nice post luv. You’ve articulated pretty well what I call perspective. Everyone looks at every play with at least a couple of perspectives, and those perspectives determine how they THINK a play should be scored. Of course dad want’s Jr to get a hit every time he puts the ball in play, so he wants the boy to get the benefit of the doubt all the time. The coach has spent hundreds of hours teaching the boys, and unless his standards a pretty low, he thinks every play should be made regardless. More often than not, the players think they should make every play, hit every pitch on the nose, and execute every pitch perfectly in both quality and location.

But the scorer “should” try to be less biased. Sure, they’re gonna always “lean” one way or the other, but in general, they should score every play using the same criteria, and that’s what the rules are for. It would be different, if before every pitch the pitchers announced the type of pitch and the location they were trying to hit, or the hitters would announce where they were trying to hit the ball, and what their intention was. But that isn’t what happens. Now after the game Jr might tell dad he called for a pitch in the dirt, or that the only threw the ball where the catcher called for it, but that’s still not a reason to violate the scoring rules.

What would be nice is, if people didn’t treat this stuff as though a $250M contract were riding on every single thing. The book is nothing more than trying to write down what took place. Its not scorers who choose how valuable what’s been written down is.

The thing about baseball is that it is a sport where scoring is something that's up to the scorer to evaluate.

In basketball a shot went in or it didn't. In football a Pass is a TD or it isn't. The scorer just logs it.

Stats are among the holiest parts of the sport. Baseball people worship the numbers in a way that other sports don't and it is the thing people go to when they argue about how "great" any particular player is. It doesn't matter if it's Babe Ruth or Johnny out on 3rd.

That's part of the reason I love this game and wouldn't have it any other way!

Luv Baseball: You've summed it up quite nicely. Our job is not just to be the scribe, but to evaluate each play. It's fun / challenge / chore all at the same time.

I don’t know why, but there sure seems to be some kind of war going on between all other participants and the scorekeepers. It seems like everyone gets mad at us when things don’t go the way they want, as though its our poor SKing that causes the problems. But like I’ve tried to tell so many people, whether or not I scored a hit or an error, it makes absolutely no difference in the outcome of the game!

I can’t say for sure about beginning SKs, but I believe in general, most with experience do just what you said, evaluate the play, then mark it down for posterity. How that affects anything, I sure don’t know. It probably does to the extent the coach/manager uses stats to make his decisions, but other than that, I don’t know what we can do to affect the game.

At the risk of overthinking it I'd suggest that everyone is taught that their opinion matters and that what they want is important. Since the SK, Umpire etc are in positions to determine a value or outcome of something especially when it comes to their kids and it sets up a situation where disagreements can get ugly sometimes.

Or it could be that SK'ers are just weirdos carring books and pens to baseball games. Who likes them anyways!