PBR Events

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Originally posted by NCHS Redhawk:

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Originally posted by RRF8:
Yes and I am glad that you mentioned this. I was new to the forum and to PBR and to the whole recruiting process at the time. I was taken to task very thoroughly by the old timers for stating this. I felt that their response was very condescending given that their sons were upper classmen or had graduated.
What they should have just said was "be patient". In time, through all of the showcases junior and senior year, things will get sorted out. Any ranking before a player has played a varsity season is in my opinion meaningless. PBR really has little to go by up until that point, so it will seem like the people who attend their showcases get preferential treatment.
So my advice to underclassmen and their parents is be patient. It will all work out.
Incidentally, rankings are never final. It is just a snapshot for a current moment in time. Many unranked high school players excel over ranked high school players in college. The opportunity for a player to advance himself is still there long after his high school days are over.

However I am amazed that there are several juniors (2012's) that have verbally accepted offers and never have set foot on the field in a varsity game yet. I choose to ignore all the showcases to save the $$ and it worked, but that may be an exception to the rule.

Very good point - when juniors are committing, how can it be too early for a 2013 or even a 2014 to attend a PBR showcase (especially an underclass event)? The books that this Web site recommend all tell us rookie parents that if we start the process in the junior year we are too late.

I was thinking the same thing Rockford Mom.......I think Sophomore year is the best time to really start exposing the player.

It seems at least once a week a 2012 is orally committing.....again with 2 full years of high school baseball to play

quote:

Originally posted by Rockford Baseball Mom:
Very good point - when juniors are committing, how can it be too early for a 2013 or even a 2014 to attend a PBR showcase (especially an underclass event)? The books that this Web site recommend all tell us rookie parents that if we start the process in the junior year we are too late.

When we see what we want to see, everything becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

The juniors that are committing are for the greater part, the same players that will be drafted in the high rounds of the MLB draft. They are committing because they draw a lot of attention and they are getting the opportunity to commit to their dream schools. If your son fits that bill, chances are, you'd already know it.

As was advised earlier, there will be plenty of opportunity to separate you from your money in showcases and such. Having junior participate in showcases before ever having played a day of varsity is considered my almost all who have traveled this path before, premature.

It is a common predicament to have parents want to rush their kids into showcases and camps. It's the same attitude we see with parents pushing their sons to play high level travel ball at young ages. Their belief is that the early experience will pay long term dividends. The reality is, that the only thing that pays long term dividends in baseball is the resultant skill and abilities the player has with his fully, or nearly fully, mature body. 8th grade legends don't get scholarships. Rushing the showcase and camp timeline isn't advantageous because coaches won't be handing out commitments on a first come first served basis. Going at it in Juniors junior year is plenty of time to get him exposed and it fits into the radar timeline of most college coaches and what they are looking for in meaningful conversations.

I understand that many people with past experience still believe that the junior season is plenty soon enough. At one time it probably was, in some cases it still is, but times are changing fast. I can assure everyone that college recruiters and even MLB scouts want to know who they should be following or recruiting.

There are very valid and important reasons to be evaluated and identified as early as freshman or sophomore year. Of course, the more talented the player the more important this is.

We could give many examples that would be impossible to argue.

One opportunity can lead to bigger opportunities. Being identified early can lead to the next opportunity. That next opportunity might be the one that counts the most. How does someone go about finding the best juniors without knowing who the best sophomores are?

I think nearly everyone would agree that the PG National Showcase is an important scouting event. The results should be very obvious regarding the talent at that event. It is held in early June, before we have a chance to evaluate players based on their junior summer. No tryouts, everything is pretty much based on what we saw during their sophomore summer and in a few cases what we saw during their high school season. High school baseball is impossible to scout efficiently, so for the most part these kids have to be identified as freshman or sophomores. Once again, no one can argue with the results from that event.

Being identified early can also lesson the impact of injury and loss of playing time during the junior or senior year.

The history of a player can provide important scouting and/or recruiting information. Reliable documentation is most important to scouts and recruiters.

Once again, this is most important for those who have lots of potential. Being identified early can provide many opportunities. Being followed is better than being unknown.

I know some will think I'm saying this for business reasons. Not true! This is not a PG thing. PG is just one way and not always the best way for every player. Besides, if someone credible identifies a player, chances are we will know about that player.

Being first identified as a junior may work great for many, but times are changing. Just a few years ago recruiting was much different. Even MLB scouting has changed dramatically. Only a couple years ago, you would never hear about underclassmen on a MLB follow list or the MLB Bureau doing a report on underclassmen. Now these lists include many underclassmen. BTW, some have not even played varsity baseball yet, but they have played at even higher levels. Nobody asks if a talented player has played varsity high school baseball. Most high school varsity players are not next level prospects. Some that have never been on varsity will become top level prospects. Why wouldn't decision makers want to know who these kids are? Truth is... They do want to know.

Once again we can provide real life examples of players who are playing at the very highest level that missed there junior and/or senior season due to injury or other reasons. Had they not been identified early this wouldn't have happened. That search can start at Vanderbilt.

Separating people from their money isn't the only thing that happens. In fact, for some it's not the goal at all. I would much rather identify a talented player than just getting his parents to part with their money. Money can be made in many other ways if you do the right things.

Bottom line... Many who have traveled the path in recent years don't understand how much recruiting and scouting is changing. I would guess that those who have kids several years apart would be more likely to notice this.

The more recruiters and scouts know about players... The better for everyone involved. I'd like to say that is my opinion. but it's not my opinion at all.

The junior year is still the "most" important time, but it's far from the only important time.

Didn't mean to change the subject... PBR Events.

I can't speak for their showcase events because I've never attended one. However, if they identify a player as having talent, we have to pay attention. Any legitimate organization that identifies talent will not be ignored by others who are looking for talented players.

PG Staff:

Your insight and knowledge is much appreciated. Our oldest son (2010) had an opportunity to play at local Jr College as well as a couple of D3 schools and he did absolutley nothing other than high school ball and legion ball in the summer. He had no desire to play at the college level and is enjoying his first year of college as "just a student."
Our younger one (2014) is all about wanting to play baseball in college and has been on a travel team since 9 years old, been to multiple tournaments in various states and wants to do whatever it takes to get to play ball in college.

We are trying to find the best approach and listen to those that have done this before. I too have to assume the landscape of recruiting baseball has changed with the advent of the internet, countless organizations promoting kids, and everyone claiming to get your kid recruited.......we are simply gathering info at this point and quite honestly going with our gut when it comes to making decisions on what/where/when to attend events and actively pursue options.

I have been reading this site for 2 years and recently began posting..........a lot of different idea's and approaches.....which makes it a great site to follow.

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We're glad to have you here on the HSBBw 2014 parent.



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PG,
While I understand the altruistic nature of your posts, and not being motivated by personal gain, I have to wonder if, at times, you are so close to the situation that objectivity is sometimes lost.

When speaking of PG National showcase, or opportunities found from early exposure, aren't we really talking about the top 1% of all players and not the bulk of 99% of the remaining players?

I understand the natural progression and acceleration that occurs in wanting to identify players and potential recruits at a younger and younger age, it's the competitive nature of any business. But the reality is that current MLB and College Coaching staffs are stretched as thin as it gets already. How much time can they possibly allot to communication and tracking of the lower 99%? And even then, they can't really have an actionable plan yet.

I would ask you to go back and consider your statement of "One opportunity can lead to bigger opportunities. Being identified early can lead to the next opportunity. That next opportunity might be the one that counts the most." and then come up with an approximate number of how many recruits are truly affected in this manner. Correct me if I am wrong, but my guess is less than that 1%.

"How does someone go about finding the best juniors without knowing who the best sophomores are?" By going to showcases where the juniors are and identifying the best ones...the same way it's been done for years. The logic that says you need to identify the best sophs to know the best juniors is a never ending spiral...wouldn't you need to know the best frosh to know the best sophs, etc, etc, etc.

While you may be right that people want the information sooner, who benefits from that and what is that benefit? And of course, of high importance to many...at what cost is that benefit?

I am guessing that the freshman player whose parent is getting excited about the recruiting process already is older for his grade. He must be a man among boys.
At the beginning of his freshman baseball season, my son was 5'3''. What college recruiter in the world would be interested in seeing him throw then? After his junior season, he had ten D1 offers. It's your money, but I still say, just be patient.

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Be patient?
10-4 RRF8.
Which way?
To the left or right?






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CPLZ,

You know there is a lot of innacurate information that passes through this message board at times. Especially lately! I can't reply to all of it without sounding like a promoter.

You are correct... I am very close to the situation, but I have absolutely no reason or intent to mislead anyone. That would be the worst thing we could possibly do. That is why I continually tell people that PG is NOT for everyone. I think I said something along those lines in the previous post.

Also, I really don't care whether someone believes what I have to say or if they want to debate it. I simply try to explain what I believe to be true.

I'm not a very smart person, but just happen to be very much on top of certain things. I'd like to think I'm very objective about most things that relate to baseball.

Do sometimes think that people would listen more seriously if it were someone other than me posting the same information. Seems that the business thing gets in the way at times.

PG,
You misread...I don't question your motives, I believe them good and well intentioned.

Because of your closeness to the situation, immersed in the trafficking of information, I just wonder if that could have possibly left you with a less than objective position from which to form your opinion, that's all. That's a fair question of a fair man, I believe, and without implication of anything beyond that.

CPLZ,

Often I think before posting... Wanting to make sure I'm not being influenced by the job. Trying hard not to sound like a know-it-all or to over promote PG.

Don't think I've ever allowed the business to interfere with the truth. However, the business has taught me many things and put us in a position to be on top of things. Things like college recruiting!

I think what some might see as a biased opinion, is simply someone trying to tell the truth.

The truth is...

At one time (not so long ago) waiting until the junior year was good advice. The system has changed. At least at the upper levels.

Regarding the 1% you referred to... It is the 1% is what creates the most interest. I also believe that the majority of that 1% are being identified before their junior year (one way or another). IMO It's the next group that is the hardest to identify and takes the longest to accurately evaluate. The more information and the more you see a player, the more accurate decision you can make. This works in favor of the recruiter, scout, evaluator and most important the player.

Obviously waiting until the junior year can still work. It's just that early identification is an advantage under the current system. If a kid can't play, nothing is going to help.

quote:

"How does someone go about finding the best juniors without knowing who the best sophomores are?" By going to showcases where the juniors are and identifying the best ones...the same way it's been done for years. The logic that says you need to identify the best sophs to know the best juniors is a never ending spiral...wouldn't you need to know the best frosh to know the best sophs, etc, etc, etc.

While you may be right that people want the information sooner, who benefits from that and what is that benefit? And of course, of high importance to many...at what cost is that benefit?

As mentioned above, everyone benefits! Cost? High Importance? I don’t really care what people do with their money. If they want to give it to us, that’s OK. But I’m not talking about us, I’m talking about players getting out there and being evaluated and identified. Here’s a starting point… No one has to spend a dime to get in our database. We just have to know who you are. We will figure out the rest.

The #1 showcase for juniors with the most talent (it’s been proven) is the very first one in early June. While others might find players at that event, we have to find them before they have even played their junior high school season. We can't wait until they are a junior, in most cases we have to know about them before that. PG is just one way to be identified, but there are many other ways. It doesn't have to be about money; it's about wanting it and doing what you can. If something is too expensive, find another route, but do something, find help, help is out there!

Things like PG National, Area Codes, Aflac, USA Baseball, etc. are events that deal with a small percentage of players. However, these are far from the only opportunities I speak of. Opportunities could include many things like being picked up by travel teams or finding a mentor. The more people who know about a talented player, the more opportunities and choices that player will have. Of course, it will always be geared towards those who have talent.

We are in Ft Myers with underclassmen right now. Many talented players will be identified on a national level for the first time. All will be followed by us until they are done playing. Very good things are going to happen to a lot of kids.

DI can't be here, but they pay very close attention (they know the track record). What are always here in addition to some scouts are a hundred agents and many travel organizations. This includes groups like USA Baseball, Midland, East Cobb, Tri State Arsenal, Orlando Scorpions, and many others. These are all people that are part of the recruiting and scouting world.

Will some be here that shouldn't be? Maybe so! If we knew who they were ahead of time I'd recommend they stay home, work hard, and wait till later. In fact, I have recommended that to people before.

I probably did misread your post, even though I don't think so. I'm certainly not upset, because I know that your intent is always to help people. You may not have anything to gain monetarily, but respect is more important. You definitely have my respect, always have, even if I disagree with what you think.

I really wish this discussion were in the General Forum. I would love to discuss this more because I think it is very important.

PGStaff you have a PM.

Don't think I've ever allowed the business to interfere with the truth.

Why would they be separate?

They shouldn't be. But it's a very common practice!

quote:

Originally posted by Rockford Baseball Mom:

quote:

Originally posted by NCHS Redhawk:

quote:

Originally posted by RRF8:
Yes and I am glad that you mentioned this. I was new to the forum and to PBR and to the whole recruiting process at the time. I was taken to task very thoroughly by the old timers for stating this. I felt that their response was very condescending given that their sons were upper classmen or had graduated.
What they should have just said was "be patient". In time, through all of the showcases junior and senior year, things will get sorted out. Any ranking before a player has played a varsity season is in my opinion meaningless. PBR really has little to go by up until that point, so it will seem like the people who attend their showcases get preferential treatment.
So my advice to underclassmen and their parents is be patient. It will all work out.
Incidentally, rankings are never final. It is just a snapshot for a current moment in time. Many unranked high school players excel over ranked high school players in college. The opportunity for a player to advance himself is still there long after his high school days are over.

However I am amazed that there are several juniors (2012's) that have verbally accepted offers and never have set foot on the field in a varsity game yet. I choose to ignore all the showcases to save the $$ and it worked, but that may be an exception to the rule.

Very good point - when juniors are committing, how can it be too early for a 2013 or even a 2014 to attend a PBR showcase (especially an underclass event)? The books that this Web site recommend all tell us rookie parents that if we start the process in the junior year we are too late.

Just remember that these showcase events are very much foot speed and MPH dominated. My son is the poster boy for the soft tossing lefty pitcher who can get kids out in a game, but will barely break a pane of glass with his fastball. There were 3 D1 schools that got excited about his 65 mph change up, but that was it. If I would have spent $200 on a showcase it would have been a complete waste of money. However there is another kid I know of who is a 2011 with a 90 mph heater that for some reason has barely pitched in high school. But when he showed that 90 mph heater is a showcase, the D1 schools came calling. Obviously the money he spent on the showcase was well worth it.

For the record, it only takes one good offer and my son got one. He is going to a small D1 school in the south, and will have a legitimate shot at being one of their top pitchers as a freshman. It is a good acedemic school, and they made him a nice offer. They saw him pitch to five batters in a summer tournament and were all over him. They did not care that the best fastball he has ever thrown was only 86 mph. A good record as a sophmore and junior in high school ball helped also.

So unless your son can post numbers on a sheet, these showcases will be a waste of your money. It would have been a waste for us, but then again he is a left handed pitcher. I'm convinced he wouldn't be nearly as well thought of if he was throwing the same pitches right handed. So the best thing you could do for your boy is strap his right hand to his body for the first 5 years of his life. Even though the general population is only 10% left handed, 40% of the players in the baseball hall of fame are lefties. That is not an accident. Do I sound like a righty that is envious of lefties? Yes I am!!

Good luck to you

Not sure if there's a right or wrong answer to whether or not a boy should or shouldn't go to a showcase and when they should start going. If you have the money it can't hurt plus I think it may help the boys for future try-outs as they're being evaluated and being looked at by alot of different sets of eyes. Also, I think you need to do the following if you exprect to be recruited regardless of how many showcases you attend. Players need to be writing coaches, keeping their grades up and sending the coaches a copy of their Spring and Summer schedules. If you send enough e-mails and make enough calls I think the player will be seen and will find a home for college ball. One last thing be realistic about who you contact nothing wrong with thinking about playing D1 but don't forget there are plenty of D2 programs out there which have quality coaches who can not only give the boy more playing time but also may be able to offer more financial aid.

I think each family needs to choose a timeline for themselves based on how well they're likely to show at that time (as well as any other family and financial considerations).

Some generalizations:

Generally, if you're a definite blue chipper with realistic pro potential that informed people outside your circle acknowledge, showcasing early can draw elite college and pro interest. (But if you're in this category, you already know it and don't need advice from me.)

Generally, if you're an early bloomer, showcasing early and often can make a lot of sense. I've seen players who dominated their age group as freshmen and sophomores before the pack closed the gap a bit as juniors and sophomores. When the pack got closer, the elite programs passed on them, but they were still very good players. I'm convinced that the momentum they created by putting their names out early and posting good ratings as sophomores was a significant factor in getting them the looks that helped them secure offers after their junior years over comparable but less known players.

Generally, if you excel at anything coaches measure--velocity, 60 yard dash, pop time--you are well advised to showcase and establish an objective record of that performance.

To the extent these situations do not apply to you, early showcasing might become less central to your strategy. However, you still need some kind of plan to attract someone's attention some time. And the longer you wait, the more you'd better hope your plan is a good one because there will be less time to adjust it if it isn't. (By the way, expecting a last-minute velo jump doesn't qualify as a plan.)

This thread has been very insightful and I asked a similiar series of questions in the showcase forum just this week. Our son (2012 LHP)has been to 2 PG showcases and was graded a 7.5. The first one was educational and the 2nd one was because it was local and no travel was needed. He has played showcase baseball the last 2 summers and only attended the WWBA in GA for the first time this year. We know the interest he has received came more from the GA event then the 2 PG showcases. We have come to the conculsion that he does not "perform" well, but "plays" exceptionally well.

I went to a PBR event prior to junior year. I, like many mentioned here, didn't (still don't) have any flashy number to show anyone on a radar gun. Nonetheless, the PBR event was (relative to some others) cheap and closeby. It was a good experience, I made a couple friends, and it can never be bad to have to perform under pressure. I also caught the eye of a handful of travel coaches which helped open doors for me down the line.

For me, showcase events like PBR were never for me and didn't particularly help me get recruited where I was recruited or go where I eventually went. I still don't regret doing it though. For me, the best thing I could do was play in front of scouts and show them the things I was good at: locating, changing speeds, moving the ball, dealing with adversity, etc. These things don't show up so much at a showcase, so I didn't invest as much time or money in these things. I tend to think that the best expenditure of money is in a travel program but like I said PBR helped open doors to some of those programs for me, especially useful when I played HS ball out of range of the watchful eye of these programs.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
There are very valid and important reasons to be evaluated and identified as early as freshman or sophomore year. Of course, the more talented the player the more important this is.


Being identified early can also lesson the impact of injury and loss of playing time during the junior or senior year.

It’s been a few years since our son when through the recruiting process however I am so thankful that jerseyson had some exposure during his freshman and sophomore seasons. Due to injury, he was not able to pitch for 95% of his junior year so if he hadn’t been “known” from his prior participation in national events, I’m not sure he would have had the same recruiting opportunities that he was presented.

While he was probably only about 80% during the summer events leading into his senior year, he was able to show enough to build on his previous work to reassure schools he was going to be okay. At the end of the day he was able to commit to his dream school by July and put the drama behind him so he could enjoy his senior year.

It sounds like things are moving even more quickly now so the timeline for recruiting might need to be adjusted.

Another angle to look at is that if your son is competitive and loves baseball, going to a showcase is simply a fun experience. It's fun for him to test himself against his peers and its fun for you as a parent to evaluate your son against other good players. And I wouldn't under estimate the intrinsic value of fun. It is after all a game and if you want to be successful you have to play it as a game and not a life and death experience.

Along these lines, if you have a freshman or soph, getting them comfortable with the whole showcase routine is a good idea as well. Like them or not, showcases are part of the baseball landscape now so getting your player used to how they operate, what they look for and comfortable so they can do their best, is all good stuff.

Now having said all that, I can tell you from experience that some kids (dads) go overboard with showcases and seem to over emphasize them to a fault. One result of this over emphasis is the play of their sons on the field begin to resemble AAU basketball types who are only concerned with putting on a show and not playing the game the way it should be.

Finally, from a perspective of someone who is now looking in the rear view mirror (in more ways than one), the recruiting process is a one time event. As a result you will want to get as much exposure as possible for as reasonable a cost as you can. If you provide your son with limited opportunities it may result in limited exposure and next level interest. (I think you can compare the process to selecting your mate. You may walk into to first watering hole and find Mr/Ms Perfect Match but more than likely the old wives tale of "kissing a lot of frogs in order to find your prince" is true.)

At some point its going to be what its going to be but as a parent you do not want to be in a position in a few years looking back and saying you wish you did more....

The responses we are getting to this post are very, very helpful. Here's what we are taking away:

As we know, showcases are just one piece of the marketing plan.

The process may be beginning at a younger age, and to ensure your player has some exposure early isn't a bad thing, as long as you keep it in perspective (again, just one piece). It may be a particularly good idea for kids who may be intimidated by a bank of radar guns and stop watches.

Showcases, like everything else, can be over-done, so do what seems reasonable.

These events are good at what they say: showcasing. What we are hearing here, and what a DI recruiting coordinator told us makes sense . . . some of the fastest kids in the 60 couldn't steal a base to save their lives. That's why coaches/scouts still come see players in real-game situations whenever they can.

The bottom line is to get on the radar of the resources that coaches believe to be reputable and respectable.

Thanks everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
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I don't even know what PBR is and many consider me rank.



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Professional Bull Riding PBR...the bulls are rank.

This is a very interesting and appropriate topic for our family as our 2013 just completed the PG Underclass in Ft. Myers. Additionally, PBR has recently begun holding events and covering Missouri & the St. Louis area (2013 has NOT attended PBR event) so I have a little knowledge of them. This was 2013's second PG event this year. Attending the first one (Illinois indoor) provided a baseline for us and was a great education and allowed him to better prepare for the recent underclass. He performed much better, increasng his FB by 4 mph (in cold conditions) and infield velo by 6 & 7 mph respectively. Also, was able to pitch four innings over two games and show off his command and off speed pitches. Hopefully, by attending these events early on it will continue to pay off in better measurables, experience and exposure. It also shows the kid that all of his hard work does pay off with improved measurables and poitive PG Crosschecker scouting blogs. It also motivates him to keep working hard to improve. We will probably do the upcoming St. Louis PBR event in February just to showcase and get his name and numbers additional exposure through the PBR channels. From my perspective the kids get one chance to experience this and the more exposure he gets the better.

I also believe if you can, send Jr to a couple of showcases early in freshman year. First, he can see the quality of freshman and sophmores there are, so he can see where he stands. Second, he will get more relaxed the second and third time out. Third, he will get seen and rated to his abilities so he can see where he needs to improve before he trirs out for the HS roster. And forth, after he has been in a couple good showcases and camps prior to entering his freshman year it will give him the experience and confidence to go head first into HS knowing he either has the tools to be a freshman,JV or Varsity quality player. I really don't see a down side to a couple good showcases if you can afford them. And just like they said in the above statements, you never know when an injury will occur. So go out and have fun, enjoy the memories!!!

son attended an pbr event last year.
i am no expert but i would think get in front of the college coaches. cangelosi is doing a college camp middle of january. info on the website. awesome. at least 20 colleges in attendance. a little costly but well worth it. cangelosi delivers.
i would save ur money.....do cangelosi at the bo dome, if you are an illinois resident.