peds and our son's

20dad,
These are the questions that keep me from piling on when a public figure is exposed for an illegal or compromising act. No one is perfect, even my only child. If he was caught doing these things I would be very upset with him, but would I trash him to friends and non friends like so many judgemental people. Not hardly.

My son is only 16 and he has made some less than stellar decisions already that have gotten him into some minor trouble at school and at home. It is humbling as his parents and hopefully for him. Humility is something we all could use from time to time.

Our society seems to like to judge others for every transgression, large or small. I think your questions are the questions we should ask ourselves before we make knee jerk judgements and statements.

It doesn't take much to become a hypocrite. The more we talk trash about others the more likely it becomes.

They deserve what they get. Do you think they are above reproach ? They certainly think they are.

Actually after thinking about it, they deserve much more thyan they get.

bhd

i assume your refering to our son's ?

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I'm sorry folks. I just don't get it.

My grandfather was a German immigrant who was so poor he pulled his own teeth.

My father was a Marine Corps Drill Instructor. Powdered his feet 'til the day he died.

I've never had to say something like... "well I never inhaled."

Both of my son's have signed an Honor Code. We do not lie, cheat or steal. Nor do we tolerate those amongst us that do.

It's not rocket science. It's not even religion.

My father once told me that there's no owner's manual. You're not their friends, you're their parents.

Zero tolerance.

And we wonder why our country is "off track".

cadDAD

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Acad I could not have said it better.

20dad it refers to everyone.

My son and I had a very serious conversation about this question while he was in college. I approached him as if I were open to the idea so as to not prejudice his answers.

At the time, he thought he might get drafted, but if so, would be a Second Day Guy. That might make him a good candidate for PEDs, giving him the extra boost to just get a chance.

He was (and is) adamantly opposed to their use, regarding them as dishonest (cheating) and potentially dangerous. We don't know what will happen to this generation of PED users as they pass through middle age, do we?

Is it impossible that he would ever use? Nothing's impossible. I would be profoundly disappointed in him, but no more so than he would be in himself.

BHD & AcDAD,

I agree they deserve what they get.

What exactly does zero tolerance mean when it comes to our kids? Disowning? What punishments you would dole out to your sons if they were caught taking PED's. Drugs?

That seems to be the question 20dad is asking.

I guess if we believe we and our kids are perfect then we can be judgemental of others.

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Zero tolerance is not a concept you throw on people after they are grown and have not had to live by rules their entire life.

I remember when my boys were VERY young, and I was particularly tough on them, especially in public situations. Picture two young boys with their noses pasted to a support column in the middle of Macy's. cadMOM would say that they would grow up to hate their DAD. Today she views things very differently.

Sadly, it is already too late for so many parents "our age". You must assume your responsibility from the moment they are conceived (please, no arguments on that topic) in order to establish rules of behavior.... right from wrong...

I do hold out that it is not too late for our generation to do their part in assisting history with a correction in what I think is appalling behavior today. As grandparents, take the time to nurture and teach young people. "But they don't think we're cool..." They will someday.

cadDAD

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quote:

what would you do if your son failed a drug test for ped's? let's assume he work's his tail off, doesn't really need them. but in his mind it will put him over the hump.

Well, he knew I would land on him like a ton of bricks. He never tested positive for a banned substance while playing with and against players he thought to be cheating. He told me cheating wasn't an option for him, regardless of the parental ramifications. Maybe he respected the game more than others.

I live by “never say never”. I know better than to say “my kids would never do……”. All I can do as a parent is talk to them, teach them right from wrong, and hope and pray that they stay on the right track. So far I have been blessed but they are only 14 and 17, things can change real fast. My son’s football coach said it best “when you are about to make a decision to do something which could be stupid, illegal, or dangerous, picture your parents standing on one side of you and me on the other, then make the decision”. If they do happen to mess up, they will have to live with that mistake, they will have no choice but to take the punishment they are dealt.

If it were my son, I would be disapointed then I would question the test.

If he hasn't taken them by now I doubt he ever will. He wasn't raised that way and is disgusted with the PED situation in baseball. Not saying he's perfect, but I just don't see it happening. He's fully aware that he could lose a spot to someone who is cheating, but that's something they will have to live with.

He's had labrum surgery, lost 15 lbs since college and is working his you know what off to try and make a milb team this year. If it doesn't work out, he will be able to sleep at night and have no regrets.

I agree it is every parents duty to teach their children right from wrong. I believe our children are our most important legacy and it is a parents top responsibility to raise them to be honest and productive members of society someday.

But sometimes young adults make the wrong choices. (Sometimes old adults do too.) They are somebody's kid, what then does that parent do? With the child they have to deal with the consequences and learn from the experience.

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You must assume your responsibility from the moment they are conceived (please, no arguments on that topic) in order to establish rules of behavior.... right from wrong...

Exactly AcademyDad!


Once our son is finished with his four years of college baseball, something that we feel blessed and appreciative for, he will move on to become a productive member of society. And as AcademyDad
stated, the groundwork was laid at an early age and continues today. A quick short story, was at a Stars hockey game back when son was real young. We were standing at the glass during warm ups and one of the Stars pitched a puck over the glass and my son grabbed it. To my surprise, he turned around and gave it to a 5 or 6 year old that was standing behind him. That was a very proud moment for me and told me so much.

It's little things like that which give you an idea if you're doing the right things and if they are absorbing them.

As far as being perfect, nope, never met a parent or kid that was perfect. But I have met a kid or parent who in certain situations, did the perfect thing.

Back to the original question, I personally do not have an answer, and I hope and believe I never will have to!

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he will move on to become a productive member of society

You mean he's not "productive" now, Danny? I agree that there are many little things along the way, like your hockey puck, that tell you if things are getting through. Well put.

quote:

Originally posted by Orlando:
My son and I had a very serious conversation about this question while he was in college. I approached him as if I were open to the idea so as to not prejudice his answers.

At the time, he thought he might get drafted, but if so, would be a Second Day Guy. That might make him a good candidate for PEDs, giving him the extra boost to just get a chance.

Orlando, I figure that your answers will be of a "Mothers" nature to these questions, but, because I'm me, I'll ask anyway.

Do you think your sons opinion/actions may have been different in 2003 if the same draft scenario existed?

At that time it was for many the "thing to do", the negative publicity at the college level was not front page, and the ramifications on any level was not clearly defined.

Also, Would you have even had the conversation with him in 2003 with your knowledge of the steroid subject back then?

In the 2003 era there were many, many college kids doing the juice, and many of them were not even athletes. In many respects it was a college craze, much like the experimentation with other drugs during the 60's and 70's.

quote:

Danny Boydston posted: To my surprise, he turned around and gave it to a 5 or 6 year old that was standing behind him. That was a very proud moment for me and told me so much.

Nothing compares to that or watching from a distance as he signs autographs after a game for little leaguer after little leaguer after little leaguer, a smile and a kind word for each one.

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You mean he's not "productive" now, Danny?

According to my checking account and my Debit card usage, he's not a productive member of my society

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According to my checking account and my Debit card usage, he's not a productive member of my society

Sounds like he's been to his "demand" side economics class but not his "supply" side class!

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According to my checking account and my Debit card usage, he's not a productive member of my society

I am about sick and fn tired of this whole thing.

When you take PED's who are you gaining and advantage on? The guys that are also taking the PED's. No your in the same boat , your both cheating and your going about it the same way.

Your gaining an advantage over the guys that choose not to cheat. So there you are. You should be so proud of yourself. You made the team , got drafted , etc etc based on the fact that you cheated and gained an advantage over a guy that refused to cheat. Man that is really something to be proud of. Congratulations.

They are cheaters. I make no exceptions for PED users. They took them to gain an advantage over their competition and to gain an advantage over the players that did not cheat. Wow! How anyone that has played the game straight up , worked their butt off to be the best they could be , did it the right way , could ever accept this type of behavior is beyond me. I think they are pathetic and I have zero respect for them.

Agreed and A- Frauds apology was a pile of ****. A straight faced liar.

rz, the conversations about steroids started in 1999 when he started hs and was offered steroids the first time in the hs weight room. He had then, and still has, his moral idealism, and he always researched the potential effects of everything he considered taking, from GNC vitamins forward. Much of what I know about PEDs has come from his research that started that long ago.

The kid's wanted to be a pro ballplayer since he was old enough to know that such things existed. His talent behind the plate has never been an issue. His size has been.

I initiated the junior year in college conversation because it was getting on for Zero Hour. His attitude hadn't changed from the freshman kid who came home from school as livid that he had been offered steroids as he would have been had he been offered heorin.

If his potential to be drafted in 2003 at hs graduation was the same as it ended up (second day guy), nothing would have been different, as he would have just gone on to college.

By the way, celebration at the house Friday night: Boy broke the barrier, weighing in at 203, over 200 for the first time in his life! (I am such a good cook )

Where does Creatine fit in to this conversation?

Is it a legal performance enhancer?

Is it okay because it is legal?

Is it a gateway PED?

What if it is not legal in 5-10 years, are those who used it then considered cheaters?

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Yikes! I may have cheated more than just at BINGO!







BTW Blprkfrnks...you've asked a great question.


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My response to all who seem concerned about the moral fiber of ballplayers who use is the same as I would offer for all persons who use. They are suicidal and need more then condemnation. I certainly do not condone what A-Rod or any other players in baseball would take to get an edge, but I certainly understand the driving motivating factors behind it.

Now some here say they'd have a zero tolerance toward PEDS. But lets see how serious you are about that. Which one of you would report your son to the authorities and have him incarcerated for using PEDS? If you say you wouldn't then your zero tolerance isn't.

My son has never used, and I can vouch for that because he hasn't changed his body type since high school. His coach in JUCO complained he wasn't gaining weight, but I couldn't get him to take a vitamin then and I can't get him to take a vitamin now.

He says he knows of players throughout his career that both used and supplied the PEDS but he felt no need because not playing baseball at the next level is not life or death for him. His family and friends are what are important. If he doesn't make it on his own talents so-what, and that's why I know I don't have to worry about him looking for an edge.

Baseball is a gamr, real life and death is when you join the arm forces and put your tush on the line. Then I might think about finding an edge. Better training and better equipment seems to work just find for our troops.

JMO

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quote:

Baseball is a game, real life and death is when you join the arm forces and put your tush on the line. Then I might think about finding an edge. Better training and better equipment seems to work just find for our troops.

How would you feel if you son was in the military and was required to take supplements or creatine...things you can buy at any GNC...for an edge? I'm not talking sports here. [no fair answering with a question, as I don't know how I would feel about that.]

How does creatine become part of the discussion. It is not illegal and has been studied every which way and found to be not harmful. Anyone can take it. It is not a steroid. M

The long term effects of creatine on the liver are NOT known. It is very misleading to say Creatine has been found not to be harmful.

Please don't spread that kind of potentially harmful misinformation here.

The potential side-effects of creatine are the usual range of stomach upsets, cramping, and aggressive behavior.

The problem, as I recall, is that there haven't been any long-range effect studies, particularly on teenagers with all that growing stuff going on. The studies done were only a couple of weeks' monitoring.

Creatine has been effective for some, useless for others. So the question is: how much of a chance do you want to take?

That's right, Orlando. Which is why it is so misleading to say that it has been "studied every which way and found not to be harmful."

Lots of people read this board. We shouldn't let irresponsible statements like that go unchallenged.

Have spent some time reading each post, some things I agree with and some things I don't as far as opinions, eveyone has an opinion and opinions on subjects like this usually derive from our values and morals that we have been brought up with and try to teach our children.

The question was what if our sons were taking a banned or illegal substanceand got caught, how would we react.

In my particualr case, my son is an adult and an educated one. He would be responsible for his own bad decisions and have to live with the consequences and I am sure he knows what, in his case as a professional player, they would be. My disappointment would be if I asked and he said no, but in reality was lying, I can't tolerate lying. Also I would be more concerned about the damage he could do later on by taking PED's because I want him to live a long life and it doesn't have to be as a baseball player.

One thing as a parent I have learned never to say, never. I hear parents say, my kid would never do that, and I say be careful with that statement.

I often cringe when I hear parents say their sons would do anything to make the team, play college ball, or play pro ball someday. Anything? That leaves a lot of questions as to what anything may be.

The best thing that you as parents can do is sit down with your kids and explain that the WORST thing could happen in taking illegal steroids is that they could compromise their health, above and beyond anything else, that is what you care about. The more pressure you place upon yor kids to succeed, the more you are opening the door for them to find ways not acceptable to succeed. Don't let baseball be their life, let them understand that you love them for who they are, not for fame and fortune, the college scholarship or a big signing bonus. Let them be complete individuals and enjoy time away from their passion, do not let the passion consume them or make them feel they have to succeed to please you, their coaches, girlfriends, wives, etc.



FWIW, a friend of mine who played pro ball during the early steroid era, told me that many players did it to recover quicker from injuries, rather than to get bigger or to avoid surgery during season or to recover quicker from surgery. PT lacked something back then, and most players knew that if they didn't recover quickly from injuries they could be out, and surgical procedures and rehab was not as good as it is now. It was exceptable, it wasn't for everyone, and it was not illegal until they made it illegal, but still with no penalties, so that left a lot of room for error and misjudgement on players part. As far as the even playing field, most likely pitcher and hitter facing each other each had tried something, more than likely to ease the pain of the long season rather than anything else.

Education is what prevents these things from happening and MLB took a long time in educating those and turned their backs when they knew what was going on. That is the whole shame in this whole thing. Not until kids began taking steroids and died, did anyone really think about what was really happening.

That is the first time I ever heard anything regarding creatine and aggressive behavior

I got my advice from Pharmacists. There are hundreds of studies on Creatine which is a natural substance produced by the body. If you take it properly you will find it very safe. My son is always grumpy so I didn't see a great mood change. He took it in his soph year under the trainers guidance and gained 25lbs and yes he kept the weight gain even after he stopped taking it.

I brought up Creatine for several reasons.

1. I think it would be considered a legal performance enhancing drug. If it wasn't, why would anyone use it.

2. My son is 16 and still growing, so I am going to say "no" if he wants to try it, until he is an adult. I've read many studies, and you can pick and choose the studies to get the conclusion you desire. Has it been around long enough to stand the test of time (longterm effects), and if it is natural, why is it taken in cycles and precise doses.

3. Some college freshmen that my son knows were told they should take the stuff to bulk up. If he makes it to college baseball, he will likely have to make a decision on whether he wants to take it.

4. I also brought it up to determine how it fit in with the "zero tolerance" parenting. Is it zero tolerance for breaking the law or zero tolerance for using artificial means to bulk up?

5. They start with protein drinks, Then there are the protein drinks with Creatine. Then they move on to Creatine tablets, then...what's next? This is just as logical as the argument that Alcohol and Marijuana can lead to the harder drugs.

These are legitimate questions that I expect to be facing with my son's health and I can honestly say that I haven't seen enough unbiased information about Creatine to make a decision that I am 100% comfortable with. I throw this out there because hearing from a variety of knowledgable posters can only help educate myself and others.

My son is currently a Junior and was visibly upset with AROD's announcement. I told him that taking short cuts is not the way to go and if your best isn;t good enough don't look for an edge that is illegal. He loves to work out and he is really disappointed with the whole Steroid deal. The good news is that buy his Senior year in H.S. maybe the playing field in College and Pro Ball will be even and more and more people will be clean.