PERFECT GAME Lost!

Another umpire debacle

I watched Jim Leyland's interview tonight after the game. When he went out to argue the play, Joyce stated that the batter/runner beat out the throw to first. That's too bad, I thought maybe he felt Galarraga missed the bag or was bobbling the ball? That statement makes it much worse, and I'm eager to hear what statement Jim Joyce is going to make later on? I'm sure he's devastated. On the flip side, Galarraga was PERFECT during the game and afterwards!

Joyce's Wikipedia page had been updated less than ten minutes after the blown call.

http://guyism.com/2010/06/umpi...mando-galarraga.html

Replay of the blown call on guyism.com.

Joyce apologized to Galarraga this evening and gave the pitcher a hug. He is devastated, but I respect him for admitting to Galarraga that he blew the call...He is human afterall. Galarraga continues to handle the situation with tremendous Class! I am now a Big Fan of Armando Galarraga!

Gallaraga handled it with real class. How Joyce could ever call another game again is beyond me. That was pathetic and Joyce had no excuse for blowing that call. It wasn't even close. It was one of the worst calls in the history of the game.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
Joyce apologized to Galarraga this evening and gave the pitcher a hug. He is devastated,

It sure is easy to criticize an ump from the comfort of our couch. It takes a man to admit he was wrong, it takes a bigger man to do it face to face . Joyce didn't have to do that.

With the speed of today's game, I'll bet no member of this site would last an MLB series without making a mistake of some kind. With all the replays and camera angles, the human eye does not have a chance.

Maybe instant replay on those calls would make everyone happy.

Joyce gets a lot of credit here by admitting he blew it but even looking at that play in regular speed, it wasn't that close. Joyce claimed the runner beat the fielder and he was way off. Had he said he saw the firstbaseman miss the bag, that would've been more understandable but it was clear on the replay the play beat the runner. Joyce was right there so how he missed what millions saw don't sit right.

RZ1,

I agree with you for the most part. We are all human and make mistakes, no doubt about that. I feel bad for Joyce, he realizes that he cost someone a piece of history, and now he's probably hurting more than Galarraga is. The problem I have is the play wasn't that close. Yes, it was a bang-bang play, but a MLB Blue should not miss that call...especially in that situation! If he would have said "I thought he missed the bag", I would have been okay. But Joyce thought the throw from Cabrera was late...He was out by almost a full step...that's my problem. It is good to see that Jim Joyce is Man enough to admit he blew the call, and like you said...he went and apologized to the Detroit RHP man to man! Both player & umpire showed some Class in the end!

Zomby,

I guess great minds think alike...I honestly didn't read your post before I typed mine below!

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
Zomby,

I guess great minds think alike...I honestly didn't read your post before I typed mine below!

In our age of multiple cameras + camera angle–replays MLB umps have no choice but to acknowledge such an obvious (replayed) blown call.

Beyond being the right thing to do, its only common sense.

If Joyce tried to deny that replay, he would be putting his career at risk by saying in effect (either) :
A.) "I'm too stubborn"
or
B.) "I'm too blind"

I won't argue that it's a missed call, but.....

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
...but a MLB Blue should not miss that call...especially in that situation!
That is my problem because one play should not be treated any different than another. If you start looking at situations with an "importance value" not only are you dealing with hindsight, but, you are minimizing the rest of the game. If anyone wants to scrutinize one play, they better have the same passion for every call. JMO. If that was a call in the 2nd inning would it be argued the same by the couch potatoes? It should be IMO

If he would have said "I thought he missed the bag", I would have been okay.
I would rather have an honest ump than one with an excuse

But Joyce thought the throw from Cabrera was late...He was out by almost a full step...
Truly unfortunate but shet happens

It should have been the one moment in the sun for a major league journeyman, one day where he was as good as any player that ever played the game. If the catch wasn't made in center to start the 9th, I think everyone would have been able to handle that because that's just the breaks of the game and that play took a tremendous effort. But to have it end in a split second like this! By some perverse logic Galarraga's game may be remembered longer than most of the other perfect games that have been thrown in the Major Leagues. But I still would much rather him have gotten his one day of immortality. I did gain a lot of respect for the way he handled it on the field. I don't think I would have taken it with as much class myself.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
Gallaraga handled it with real class. How Joyce could ever call another game again is beyond me. That was pathetic and Joyce had no excuse for blowing that call. It wasn't even close. It was one of the worst calls in the history of the game.

Does the name Denkinger mean anything to you? It does to Cardinals fans. Joyce's call could never top turning the tide in a World Series.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Another umpire debacle

Galarraga revealed class.

Joyce revealed class.

You revealed you.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Does the name Denkinger mean anything to you? It does to Cardinals fans. Joyce's call could never top turning the tide in a World Series.

Oh yeah...I remember that play with Denkinger...While the World Series trumps a regular season game, a perfect game is a histoical game in its own right since only about 20 perfect games have ever been pitched in MLB history.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
I won't argue that it's a missed call, but.....

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
...but a MLB Blue should not miss that call...especially in that situation!
That is my problem because one play should not be treated any different than another. If you start looking at situations with an "importance value" not only are you dealing with hindsight, but, you are minimizing the rest of the game. If anyone wants to scrutinize one play, they better have the same passion for every call. JMO. If that was a call in the 2nd inning would it be argued the same by the couch potatoes? It should be IMO

If he would have said "I thought he missed the bag", I would have been okay.
I would rather have an honest ump than one with an excuse

But Joyce thought the throw from Cabrera was late...He was out by almost a full step...
Truly unfortunate but shet happens

rz1,

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I won't Win this debate with you, besides I'm just too lazy to use the RED ink!

Seriously though, I think the umpires (Joyce included) want to make the correct call! And I would rather have an honest Ump too...but I also would like an ump that can make the correct call in the 2nd inning and Especially the 9th inning with two outs and a Perfect Game on the line! Yes, unfortunately shet happens...fortunately in this case it happened to a player that has exemplified tremendous Class right after the blown call in the 9th, and a few hours after the game. Like I said earlier, I am now a Big Fan of Armando Galarraga...and I'm sure other's are now Big Fan's too!

quote:

Originally posted by SMAN14:
I just saw an interview with Jim Joyce where he admitted he made a mistake... he voted for Barack Obama

That is very funny.

That fact remains, Jim Joyce blew the call.
It was not even a difficult call to make.
It is an umpire debacle but more so for being
out of position as a 1b umpire, to make such an easy call and and miss becoming part of Detroit Tiger & MLB history.

And be sure to remind yourself that Jim Joyce only apologized for his mistake after he saw the replay
(and several times) of his debacle. And while you are there, I don't buy Jim Joyce's locker room act when Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski says he
wants to speak with Armando Galarraga.

The class act should be awarded to Armando
and Jim Leyland!

Yes, mistakes are made all the time. dah.

The Major League Umpire Association should be embarrassed.

But what should happen to Joyce and his professional umpiring career?

Sorry, but
a) Take a drug test and
b) You can not ump at the big league level
c) Your fired!

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
That fact remains, Jim Joyce blew the call.
It was not even a difficult call to make.

And you base this on how many years of calling major league ball?

quote:

It is an umpire debacle but more so for being
out of position as a 1b umpire, to make such an easy call and and miss becoming part of Detroit Tiger & MLB history.

Wow. This reveals a lot. No ML umpire or anyone with above average ethics would ever consider becoming or not becoming a part of history when making a call.

quote:

And be sure to remind yourself that Jim Joyce only apologized for his mistake after he saw the replay
(and several times) of his debacle.

Of course. He had to see evidence of his mistake. He wouldn't have made the call if knew it was wrong. What kind of logic are you using? He made the call he thought was right. And when confronted with evidence that he was wrong, he immediately apologized for his error.

quote:

And while you are there, I don't buy Jim Joyce's locker room act when Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski says he wants to speak with Armando Galarraga.

Obviously. Here is an umpire making a most rare public and personal apology. What an a-hole he must be.

quote:

The Major League Umpire Association should be embarrassed.

Agreed, all 60 some umpires should take personal responsibility for that mistake!

quote:

But what should happen to Joyce and his professional umpiring career?

Sorry, but
a) Take a drug test and
b) You can not ump at the big league level
c) Your fired!

You bet. Joyce and every other umpire who makes a mistake should be fired. Immediately. On the spot. There should no tolerance for any mistake. Ever. Umpires should be as perfect as the players!

Are we not all human?
What if the batter runner was safe, and the Ump called him out.
Would that of been a good call to save a Perfect Game.

Gallaraga, will be remembered more now for the way he handle the situation then he would of if he had the Perfect game.

EH

A.) Jim Joyce showed great class in admitting he made a mistake.

B.) As a pitcher, I am amazed at Gallaraga's ability to keep his cool in that situation.

C.) If the runner had been safe and was called out, would we really have been able to call it perfect?

"Are we not all human?"

Unfortunately yes, which is why we need instant replay for crucial situations like these. Seriously, what's holding it back...?

If the guy had been safe but called out instead people wouldn't remember because the memory of a perfect game trumps that. Probably very few people here know that there was some controversy on the last pitch of Don Larson's World Series perfect game as the pitch didn't seem particularly close to being a strike and Dale Mitchell the batter turned to argue with an umpire that was already running off the field. That was the umps last career call behind the plate as he already knew he was retiring yet you don't commonly hear criticism for his questionable strike call when it went in favor of the perfect game.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
rz1,

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I won't Win this debate with you, besides I'm just too lazy to use the RED ink! Wink

Seriously though, I think the umpires (Joyce included) want to make the correct call! And I would rather have an honest Ump too...but I also would like an ump that can make the correct call in the 2nd inning and Especially the 9th inning with two outs and a Perfect Game on the line! Yes, unfortunately shet happens...fortunately in this case it happened to a player that has exemplified tremendous Class right after the blown call in the 9th, and a few hours after the game. Like I said earlier, I am now a Big Fan of Armando Galarraga...and I'm sure other's are now Big Fan's too!

bsbl24,

We are on the same page. I think EH brought up the best point......

quote:

What if the batter runner was safe, and the Ump called him out.

Would that change your POV?

MLB has to step in and reverse the call. The AB for the next hitter should be taken off the record because the AB shouldn't have ever happen. It wouldn't be tainted because everybody but Jim Joyce saw the batter was out.

They can reverse the call and get it right. They reversed the game in the Pine Tar incident and the game was replayed a month later under totally different circumstances which was a joke. This situation is easuily correctable and maybe Jim Joyce needs to take a seat for a while or go down to the minors and work out his problems. The used car salesman has to step up and do his job here and fix the results.

Also, instant replay must be instituted now. MLB can no longer drag their feet on this.

The last perfect person was strung up on a tree about 2000 years ago.

The ump made a mistake. He admitted it and apologized. He will carry this for quite a while.

Oddly, MLB can easily correct this, but the purists will then go nuts. I understand that. But if I'm the Commissioner, I consider the normal rarity of a perfect game, and I order the MLB records amended to reflect a perfect game was thrown. I take the asterik off of Maris, and put it here, adding a footnote that an admitted erroneous call by an umpire was corrected on the 27th out.

It would be unusual to be sure, but it would be good use of that stupid asterik.

Its not over 'till it's over?

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/...-perfect-game-blown/

zombywoof,

The reversal of the pine tar call was a little different case because that was a protested ruling of a rule interpretation not a judgement call. I don't think there is any precedent for overruling judgement calls in the heat of the game. The pine tar game was just taken up from the point of the protest and finished a few weeks later with Billy Martin making a joke of things by playing pitchers in sefensive positions and Mattingly at 2nd I believe. My bet is that nothing can be done to reverse the call.

Ironically, Mariano Rivera has stated that the ump in question is in his mind the best one in the league and "a perfect gentleman", which just shows that even the best can make a bad mistake. I think the replay process is going to have to be adjusted for certain types of plays or certain situations.

I hope Selig does overturn the call. Jim Joyce would probably be more thankful than Gallaraga!

Another columnist with some plausible arguments for restoring Gallaraga's place in history:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s...-perfect-game-060210

Julie

Hats off to gallaraga, i think he has it in proportion. I'm not in favor of overturning, it happens too many times to make an exception (missed calls - not perfect games) - and we have all learned to live with the results - or at least have to because that's baseball.
I know I will always remeber this game - as will millions of others. I couldn't tell you who had the last perfect game before Halliday. I only know that this will be one of the ones that people talk about for years to come.

And Joyce will be the Bill Buckner of Umpires.

Another typical insult from you


I said nothing about the ump not having class or having class---all I stated is that it was another debacle---which it was--he blew a very simple call--it was clear as a bell--there is no excuse

Here we go with instant replay as a knee jerk reactions that will change the face of baseball. Institute instant replay and there will be.....

very few double plays

more injuries to middle infielders

games lasting 4 hours

The game has already lost it's fluidness because of tv commercials, now, lets critique every close play and drag it on even longer.

The best part about baseball in my opinion is that it's judged by the perception of humans. Throwing in instant replay on "moving" plays is the first step towards a strike zone that is based on laser triangulation, and shoes/bases/gloves/balls with contact pads. That technology is available and waiting for a heart-string to be pulled by John Q Public.

Who's to say that the record books throughout the history of the game are not tainted because of bad and/or favorable calls. Do you now revisit those?

I don't want to hear the bs about a team being allowed a rule that allows a certain number of "reviews" a game. This is not football, it is baseball. I call football a game, I call baseball a passion where there is a human factor to judge the plays, again, back to balls and strikes. I also have a passion for technology, but, not when baseball is at stake.

My point....Don't let single incidents drive change.

Though I am an old timer, I am in favor of replay.

It already is used for HRs and has proven to work.

I'm not in favor of replaying every call, but a very limited use in the most important situations would be good. Actually like it when they get the calls right.

I know some will say, how do you determine the most important situations... aren't they all important?

Seeing they are not likely to ask me, guess I won't spend a lot of time trying to figure that one out.

Other than balls and strikes, most games don't have many controversial calls, they get nearly all of them right.

MLB umpires are under unbelievable scrutiny because everyone can see the replays and unlike football, these guys don't get bailed out when they make a mistake. To me, it's amazing how often, nearly always, that they get the close plays called correctly. Unfortunately, yesterday they missed one on what should have been the final out of a Perfect Game.

IMO... The responses by all directly involved made yesterday a good day for baseball.

Human nature doesn't allow this but I wish we would concentrate on how much class everyone has had in dealing with the situation. I highly doubt that basketball or football would deal with this situation as Gallaraga, Joyce and even Leyland did.

I hope and pray that they do not overturn the call. There are so many bad things that would come out of it and you create a precedent that does not need to be there. Basically when do you stop going back to overturn calls or what if overturning the call changes the outcome of the game or what if overturning a call starts messing with a player's contract incentives. Think about this - the guy who batted after the "last" out had in his contract he gets a $100,000 bonus for reaching X number of at bats. Well you go overturn this call then it takes that at bat away - what if that puts him under the magic number of at bats to get that bonus? No way the players association would stand for that.

What if the situation is reversed as we have stated - he's called out when it's obvious he was safe. Do you go back and finish that game? What if Detroit has the central locked up but they have to go back and finish this game. During the make up game an errant pitch goes up and in on Cabrera and breaks his wrist. He's now done for the playoffs. Or Detroit is fighting for the wild card spot and now they have to use pitching to finish a game and it hurts them going into the playoffs.

Do you really want the Commisioner or a committee deciding the fate of games or do you want the players (and yes even the umps) deciding the games? If they do this what's to keep them from expanding that power into more ares of control of the game outcomes? No other sport allows the organizing body (MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL) to decide the outcome of games like this overturn would. We do not want to go down that slippery slope.

Nothing good comes from overturning this call.

I've not been a big fan of instant replay but calls like this are changing my mind. The biggest problem with instant replay is that one call can change the outcome of the play. If you go back and get a call changed then that means the umps now have to start deciding on a best guess where runners have to be. Not good business but if you can come up with a solid way to avoid or minimize this then I'm all for it.

Also - we don't need to implement instant replay right now. That is panic mode and we don't need to make a panic decision. Plus games have been decided using human decisions and to change now would give teams from here on out an advantage that didn't have before. Put instant replay in at the start of the season or post season where all teams have an equal opportunity to be helped from it. There are teams who have lost games that might have won if for replay.

For those of you who want to fire Joyce let me warn you that he is one of the best umps in the league. You fire him over this then you get what you ask for. You think the umps stink now then you will get the absolute worst ones because the good ones won't stick with it with that little of job security.

I feel sorry for the pitcher but I agree with rz1, once you open the flood gates for instant replay you will take what most people enjoy about the game. I still don't like it for home runs, but it only makes a difference of a double or home run, or foul ball. once you bring it in for other plays, than it will be pushed to include balls and strikes taking out the ability of the pitcher to work to the umps zone.
Leave instant replay out of the game, in the end the human factor is what we enjoy about the game and without the human factor we wouldn't have anything to debate about.

Just some great arguments in this thread on both sides. EH - where you been? - great post!

I think I am with rz1 on this one. I can live with the mistakes although I would be vomiting right now if my son were robbed of a perfect game. If Selig steps in, they better change the outcome of the 1985 World Series which was even more of an egregious call.

I am a big fan of the way this young man has handled things. I am sick of all the ego's and cry-babies in sports these days. This young man is a true role model imho!

I'm all for overturning the call on this if we go back and check the PitchFx to make sure neither Halladay or Galarraga got a strikeout or foul ball on a pitch that should have been called ball four. Where do you draw the line? (Galarraga didn't really come close to walking anyone but he did get the benefit of several marginal strike calls and a few balls called strikes. He did a great job of going right back to those locations and getting swings on similar pitches, but after the first two pitches of the game the plate ump helped him quite a deal with a good but generous strike zone.) I've heard Halladay would have had a couple walks with a perfectly called strike zone.

Let's face it, perfect games are incredibly rare and exciting but not overly important. Nobody makes the HOF because they threw a perfect game. There's too much luck involved in throwing a perfect game.