PERFECT GAME Lost!

quote:

Let's face it, perfect games are incredibly rare and exciting but not overly important. Nobody makes the HOF because they threw a perfect game. There's too much luck involved in throwing a perfect game.

Maybe a June game isn't the same as a world series game but those June games have to be won to be in a position to play more meaningful games later in the season when the pennant race heats up.

As for it not being important, I disagree because of how rare and difficult it is to throw one. Had Gallaraga got the perfect game, there's be lots of items getting shipped to the HOF museum so it must be that important to the game of baseball and it's history.

As much as I disagree with the call, he blew it, I do not want to see the call reversed--I understand that MLB is meeting today to discuss it--If you reverse this call where do your stop?

Umpires screwing up is part of the game and it should be ---what else could we argue about as coaches and fans--I think reversing the call would be a travesty---The UMP manned up and talked to the kid--case closed

now we go forward

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Though I am an old timer, I am in favor of replay.

It already is used for HRs and has proven to work.

PG,
Walls and flagpoles exist because they are stationary objects that determine the field of play. Instant replay in those situations only verifies that those geometrical angles have or have not been crossed. IMHO, when you have an intangible objects, with heartbeats, within the field of play, you are removing yourself from the rigid lines we deal with in our lives and instill our human nature and using our god given gift of thinking. That makes baseball special.

For years baseball has been a thinking mans game, judged by men on the field, and scrutinized by fans off the field of play. Replay should remain to verify the field parameters, and human judgment should remain the final judgment on the field. IMO, anyone who has played the game understands the games purity is a result of its human touch. Todays technical society is threatening to disrupt that purity.

Zomby,
Is Don Larsen in the HOF? Was Don Larsen a great pitcher? Perfect games are difficult to throw because there is so much luck involved. It takes a great day and great luck. Galarraga had some bad luck.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
MLB has to step in and reverse the call. The AB for the next hitter should be taken off the record because the AB shouldn't have ever happen. It wouldn't be tainted because everybody but Jim Joyce saw the batter was out.

They can reverse the call and get it right. They reversed the game in the Pine Tar incident and the game was replayed a month later under totally different circumstances which was a joke. This situation is easuily correctable and maybe Jim Joyce needs to take a seat for a while or go down to the minors and work out his problems. The used car salesman has to step up and do his job here and fix the results.

Also, instant replay must be instituted now. MLB can no longer drag their feet on this.

The pine tar incident involved a protest. You can't protest safe/out calls. I believe this call will create a conversation for expanding the role of instant replay beyond determining homers in the future. Like football, allow X number of appeals on close plays and the replay has to show undisputed cause for overturning the call. Just please don't ever use replay for balls and strikes. The machines aren't 100% accurate.

I think this sums up what I think about this, written by John Miller from National Review Online:

"What happened last night was unfortunate. Everyone knows it. Galarraga and Joyce have handled this with an enormous amount of grace and dignity. An emailer pointed out that it's almost a blessing that Joyce messed up the call, because now everyone can see how grown ups are supposed to behave."

The only thing I would add is that Galarraga will be remembered in baseball history far more if the call is not overturned than if it is.

In regards to the luck issue, we shouldn't forget the two "perfect" games that became unperfect because the pitcher's teammates couldn't manage to score a run in 9 innings--Harvey Haddix's ended in the 12th and Pedro Martinez in the 10th.

Good point 3bag. Nice post Rob.

Like everyone else, I watched that call as it was made and was absolutely stunned. At first, I'm thinking, "how do you blow that call?" Then I go to "he must have bobbled the ball, or missed the bag"; and how much testicular fortitude it takes for an ump to see the play and make the "right" call in that situation (giving the ump the benefit of the doubt).

Then you see the replay, and you see a big E-U needs to be recorded and go to utter amazement. I can see the pro's and con's of reversing the call, or not reversing the call ... but it seems to me that there was a great opportunity missed right on the field ...

I remember at the beginning of the season how MLB was emphasizing that they were encouraging umpiring crews to get together around a big call, or questionable call; to discuss it and make sure they did their best to make the right call. I saw this happen a lot during the first weeks of the season. I have NOT seen this happen much lately, and have heard nothing more about MLB encouraging this.

I have to believe that if either Joyce, or the Crew Chief (assuming that is not Joyce), had called time and the 4 umpires had gotten their heads together; that there is a very good chance one or more of the guys on the crew would have questioned the call. If nothing else, they would have forced Joyce to have to take the time to think about what he saw, and the circumstances surrounding the call; and he may have had an opportunity in hidsight to reverse himself.

I'm not so sure that we need instant replay as much as we need to quit worrying about how long the games are, and insist that the Umpires on the field actually collaborate more to make sure they get the close calls right as often as they possibly can.

To me, that was the real opportunity lost last night, as I doubt very much the call would have stood had 3 other Umpires had the opportunity to weigh in on the decision.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
rz1,

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I won't Win this debate with you, besides I'm just too lazy to use the RED ink! Wink

Seriously though, I think the umpires (Joyce included) want to make the correct call! And I would rather have an honest Ump too...but I also would like an ump that can make the correct call in the 2nd inning and Especially the 9th inning with two outs and a Perfect Game on the line! Yes, unfortunately shet happens...fortunately in this case it happened to a player that has exemplified tremendous Class right after the blown call in the 9th, and a few hours after the game. Like I said earlier, I am now a Big Fan of Armando Galarraga...and I'm sure other's are now Big Fan's too!

bsbl24,

We are on the same page. I think EH brought up the best point......

quote:

What if the batter runner was safe, and the Ump called him out.

Would that change your POV?

rz1,

Yes, I thought EH brought up a good point too...however, if indeed the shoe was on the other foot and the runner/batter was called OUT(instead of SAFE!) to end the game we would still have some controversy...But it wouldn't be anything near what we're dealing with Galarraga losing the Perfect Game as opposed to gaining one. I think what's made this even more controversial, is the way the Tiger right-hander has handled himself! We're all quite impressed with his demeanor both on and off the field, and we like to see guys like that rewarded!

I am in favor of a "controlled" instant replay in certain situations with certain plays, ie: HR's, and some controversial putouts...But again, none of us want an additional 10-20 minutes added on to already long games. The technology has come along way with X-Mo, etc...so there has to be something the MLB can do to help out?

Reverse the call? That would be nice for Galarraga, and yes, Joyce might be relieved too. As much respect that I've gained for Armando Galarraga,I'm not in favor of reversing the call. If we reverse this call, then they're going to have to go back and look at all of the other controversial calls of the past...and there are plenty of them!

Selig won't overturn call.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s...-perfect-game-060310


As much as we would like the game of baseball to be perfect.
It's not.

Nobody ever said life is fair.

EH

Once again, Selig blows it. But that's par for the course with this used car salesman. This call was easily reversible and Selig should've done the right thing and reverse it.

It was obvious the guy was out. Everybody saw it. Even the batter was shocked he was called safe.

There'd be no asterisk after it because the out really happened and there was no controversy until Joyce called it.

bsbl247,
Isn't a missed call, a missed call regardless of the outcome? IMO, Galarraga will be more remembered for the one that got away than if he was recorded in the book that is already tainted with dirty numbers. JMO

I wonder how many pitchers over time were cheated out of no-nos, or teams were on the short end of the stick because of a missed call. Just the thought of the phantom double plays that happen daily makes one wonder of what could have been during any contest, if the right call was made in any facet of the game, and that's what makes baseball so great. In this case it was the last play of a game coupled with another significance. A freak of nature.

IMO, the opinion that counts is the fraternity of players, past and present, and I've heard very little replay support.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/bl...latio?urn=mlb,245508

Look at the smile on this young man's face. There is a lesson here...

i'm the first to admit my eyes aren't what they used to be. that said i watched the replay in real time,at least ten times...... and i can't say definatley safe or out. i can't imagine it was any easier in real mlife.

i've heard 200 times today it was a no brainer......i just didn't see it well enough. perfect game or not.

Football was played for many years before they started using replay. The human element still exists in most calls.

They use replay in basketball too, though it is not used often.

The only reason I can think of for not using replay is when it consumes too much time to correct mistakes or the replay was inaccurate. With today's technology, that improves constantly, we should allow officials to use everything in their power to get it right. At least those calls that a good official/umpire will have vto live with forever.

Galarraga was great in every way. He pitched great and he reacted great. He is everyone's hero today and he should be. I thought Joyce also handled things the best he could. However, he is the one who everyone will remember, blew the call. After 22 years of umpiring in the Big Leagues and being considered one of the best, he now has this.

For those who thought that was an easy call...

It was very easy after watching the replay. And at real speed it was a bang bang play. I thought Joyce was in a good position to make that call. Remember the ball was fielded by the firstbaseman. BTW, looked like a routine out had the 1B just went to the bag. The umpire never has as good a look as the camera can capture.

Did anyone see the emotion by Joyce as Galarraga took the lineup card out to home plate before the game today.

Got to admit, I'm a big Armando Gallaraga fan now! But I feel more sorry for Jim Joyce and also respect him.

I know Don Denkinger and have heard the stories about death threats from that one missed call. Not many know that he umpired in several World Series and umpired in the Major Leagues for over 30 years. Of course, he is in favor of replay!

Don Denkinger

I'm old school, but the game has changed a lot over the years. Things change! That technology allows fans to see the replays, why not allow the umpires to see it when their reputation, or even worse, is at stake?

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
bsbl247,
Isn't a missed call, a missed call regardless of the outcome? IMO, Galarraga will be more remembered for the one that got away than if he was recorded in the book that is already tainted with dirty numbers. JMO

rz1,

I agree with you. I'm more or less referring to the emotional impact of the call(s). There would have been much less emotion involved had it gone the other way. The good news is that Galarraga picked up a nice ride after this ordeal!

I think the human element HAS to remain in the game. Umpires make mistakes. Players make mistakes. Managers make mistakes.

Should we reverse bad pitch location calls?

Should we reverse bobbled ground balls? I'm sure the fielder didn't mean to bobble it.

Should we reverse pitching changes? I'm sure Grady Little wishes he hadn't left Pedro out there several years ago.

Let the mistakes happen. It's part of the game.

I totally agree.

This is actually a great story.

Two guys who both manned up. Great example for our youth.

A perfect game requires perfection by the defense, a lot of strikes by the pitcher, a little luck, at least one run from the offense and perfection by the umpires.

This game wasn't perfect... but it was a GREAT example of how men should act. Last night I wanted it over turned. Today after some introspection, you can't be over turning umpires and changing the outcome.

However if I was scoring, I'd have been REALLY tempted to score an E-1 just on principal.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
Joyce apologized to Galarraga this evening and gave the pitcher a hug. He is devastated, but I respect him for admitting to Galarraga that he blew the call...He is human afterall. Galarraga continues to handle the situation with tremendous Class! I am now a Big Fan of Armando Galarraga!

I believe it was Galarraga who gave Joyce a hug...not the other way around. Everything Galarraga did he did with class! His poise was superhuman! Why everyone is giving Joyce so much credit for admitting that he made a bad call is surprising to me. The call was obviously blown! What did you expect him to do? He had no choice but to admit he was wrong...too bad he didn't ask for help at the time the call was made. Now he will have to live with it for the rest of his life.

My feeling about the whole thing is Commissioner Selig should treat this as a very unusual circumstance. There were already 2 outs when this all happened. It would be a different story if there were less than 2 outs. Just my opinion. I doubt if there would be another situation like this in the near future.

On the other hand, I like the Red Corvette!

quote:

Originally posted by HRKB:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
Joyce apologized to Galarraga this evening and gave the pitcher a hug. He is devastated, but I respect him for admitting to Galarraga that he blew the call...He is human afterall. Galarraga continues to handle the situation with tremendous Class! I am now a Big Fan of Armando Galarraga!

I believe it was Galarraga who gave Joyce a hug...not the other way around. Everything Galarraga did he did with class! His poise was superhuman! Why everyone is giving Joyce so much credit for admitting that he made a bad call is surprising to me. The call was obviously blown! What did you expect him to do? He had no choice but to admit he was wrong...too bad he didn't ask for help at the time the call was made. Now he will have to live with it for the rest of his life.

HRKB,

I think everyone agrees that Galaragga displayed exceptional class, and now has a number of fans throughout the baseball world! Yes, after watching the replay, Joyce had no choice but to admit he blew the call. The fact that he didn't bolt to the umpires locker room and stayed on the field after the game and took the verbal abuse given (I was yelling at him through my TV too!)...and then, after watching the replay, he went to the Detroit Clubhouse and apologized to Galarraga man to man, admitted he blew the call, and they embraced! I don't think it matters if Joyce hugged Galarraga, or vice-versa? Armando Galarraga deserved the Perfect Game, he pitched brilliantly and displayed a tremendous amount of poise! However, the poise he displayed after the game is what everyone will remember!

Jim Joyce is human, he messed up (we all make mistakes!)...but if you listen to the current and former MLB players, they all had nothing but good things to say about him, in fact, I believe it was Harold Reynolds on MLB Network that stated that Joyce was going to be devastated...Reynolds was right! Unfortunately, Jim Joyce is now going to be known for this bad call, ala Dekinger...But Galarraga would not have been given a brand new Red Convertible Corvette had this not all gone down like this...JMO!

The way he handled this situation tells me all I need to know about him as a person. As far as Joyce I felt bad for him after the this game ended. And I respect the hel out of the way he has handled it as well. He made a bad call. I will remember Joyce as being the guy that had the guts to man up and admit he made a mistake and for the way he handled the situation. I will remember Galarraga for being the pitcher that threw the perfect game that was spoiled by a bad call in the books but handled it with tremendous class. And I will be pulling for him when he toes the rubber from now on because of the type of person he has shown that he is.

We all make mistakes. We all screw up. We all have done things we wished we could take back. But we all have not handled these situations with the same class and integrity that these two men have. I have respect for both of these guys. I think that this situation has been a great lesson to those that b*tch and whine every time something doesn't go their way. A great lesson to those that are short changed. You can handle it with class and gain respect. Or you can act like an a** and lose it.

More good has come from this bad call than ever would have come out of this situation if the right call was made. Everything happens for a reason. Thanks to these two guys the results of a tough situation are all positive imo.

As somebody mentioned on tv last night...these two gentlemen will be forever linked and, now, will probalby make second careers out on the speaking circuit.

Both men seem to have handled this whole situation with a tremendous amount of class. Nice to see some more of that in MLB these days.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
The way he handled this situation tells me all I need to know about him as a person. As far as Joyce I felt bad for him after the this game ended. And I respect the hel out of the way he has handled it as well. He made a bad call. I will remember Joyce as being the guy that had the guts to man up and admit he made a mistake and for the way he handled the situation. I will remember Galarraga for being the pitcher that threw the perfect game that was spoiled by a bad call in the books but handled it with tremendous class. And I will be pulling for him when he toes the rubber from now on because of the type of person he has shown that he is.

We all make mistakes. We all screw up. We all have done things we wished we could take back. But we all have not handled these situations with the same class and integrity that these two men have. I have respect for both of these guys. I think that this situation has been a great lesson to those that b*tch and whine every time something doesn't go their way. A great lesson to those that are short changed. You can handle it with class and gain respect. Or you can act like an a** and lose it.

More good has come from this bad call than ever would have come out of this situation if the right call was made. Everything happens for a reason. Thanks to these two guys the results of a tough situation are all positive imo.

Baseball is an Beautiful Game played, coached and umpired by imperfect people on dirt and grass using leather and wood. It doesn't get any better than that.

Those involved have shown nothing but class and humanity. A great lesson to be learned by players of all ages.

Wonderful responses in this thread.

To me, this event was a blessing for baseball. We have had so much negativity going on with the drugs and character issues that in this seemingly "negative" event, a positive blessing has unfolded. It restores my faith that good people are out there and that results are ultimately unimportant. How we react is what counts.

Thank you Armando Galarraga and thank you Jim Joyce

Can you just imagine if it had happened to Zambrano !!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Can you just imagine if it had happened to Zambrano !!!

Or the Rocket in his days of rage.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Can you just imagine if it had happened to Zambrano !!!

Yes I can imagine and also imagine Lou Pinnella on top of it. To be honest, I would expect many major leaguers and managers (because of their competitiveness) to react negatively if not violently.

The good point here is that it happened to Galarraga. I believe it happened to him for a reason and that was to show that positive spirit and attitude are far more important than a result.

I will be pulling for this kid the rest of his career.

It's only a game, not a perfect one.

It is really not possible to add much to this column - other than Galarraga is now 1 of 1 and not 1 of 21.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/...604,0,4243719.column

Here's my question: Why did the umpires not talk to see if anyone saw it different?

I've seen times when a homerun is called when they weren't sure if it went out. Why not now? Can MLB umpires not confer to make sure a call is correct?

I think that call is 1B ump's all the way, because he has the best vantage point, plus its his assignment on that play (right, Jimmy03???). I've never seen a 2b or plate ump voluntarily override that call unless the 1B asked for it. And a MLB 1B ump asking for help on that call is pretty much admitting he wasn't paying attention to the game - its his most important call on that play.

I don't think Joyce felt uncertain about the call when he made it, so he wouldn't have asked for the help anyway. He didn't even realize he missed it so badly until after he saw it when the game was over. And it would have been superbad umpiring to reverse the call on the field after Leyland came and got in his grill about it.

Home runs are different because its difficult to assign the call to any one ump, and they need everyone's input since they are all far away from it.

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:
Here's my question: Why did the umpires not talk to see if anyone saw it different?

I've seen times when a homerun is called when they weren't sure if it went out. Why not now? Can MLB umpires not confer to make sure a call is correct?

This was Joyce's call all the way... he is responsible for the call. By rule no other umpire may overrule another.

OBR rule 9.02
(a) Any umpire’s decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

If he had thought he missed something he could have asked another umpire for additional information to assist him in making the call.......there was no reason to do that....no one was in a better position to see the call than the he was......

I agree with wragg that Joyce fully believed he made the right call.......and as such would not have asked any other umpire for help....only when in the umpires room did he get to see the call on video and then he knew he missed it....

Joyces call prooved to me how ethical he is as an umpire.....

you know he knew the situation...(last out perfect game) and he made a call that he truly believed was correct.......regardless of the situation and regardless of any controversy that might have come from it.....He made the call he thought was right.....

Now we all know because of the video he missed the call...

I would want to know how many umpires facing the same situation would do the same.......since it happended, umpires from my chapter have said no way they whould they have called that guy safe regardless of the play.... they would have had the out call ready the moment the ball was fielded....

But not me.......I want a partner who is courageous enough to make the hard call in a tough situation........

Jim gets high praise from me for his ethics and his handling of the aftermath of his missed call.......

Its because of Jim and the fine young pitcher, gallaraga, that we have a fine example of how missed calls should behandled....

I will be using this exchange, this example in my umpiring classes for years to come....

Whatever happens, please pray Galarraga doesn't pitch a no-hitter his next time out which would tie Johnny VanderMeer's one time feat. The cries for a reversal would be incredible even though I feel Selig did the right thing since there really is no precedent for him overruling a JUDGEMENT call.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
I think that call is 1B ump's all the way, because he has the best vantage point, plus its his assignment on that play (right, Jimmy03???).

Correct. PIAA_Ump has this nailed.