PG RANKINGS

When you figure it out, let the rest of us know.  They'll tell you they don't only evaluate on PG appearances.  It has to be true.  They rely on sources outside as well who have influence on them.  I don't like that route either.  One kid on a top national team raked all summer.  Led them in nearly all hitting categories but saw his rating fall dramatically in the last refreshed ratings.  Performed very well PG and non-PG events so it can't be that tournaments outside have a bearing.  

 

It's a popularity contest at best.  Don't worry.  Work hard and you'll get noticed.  PG doesn't hand out scholarships, colleges do.  Perform at the next level and you'll be noticed for sure.  

 

 

 

 

Please check past results.  The rankings are documented for anyone to see for every year. The Rawlings/PG preseason All American teams are based mostly off of the rankings.  You can check out the past results from that too. 

 

Perhaps the thing people don't understand very that statistics have very little to do with the rankings.  The rankings are based on draft criteria.  That is a combination of current skills and weighted heavily on what we believe will happen in the future. In other words, predictions.  The same way these skills are looked at by MLB organizations.  Nobody hads a crystal ball and the only complaints we have ever received comes from parents.

 

There is absolutely no favoritism or politics involved.  We don't listen to what others say, but you might notice that others do follow and utilize the PG rankings When doing there own.  If not, simply compare the results.

 

Lastly, the more players we see that deserve a certain ranking, results in someone moving down a notch.  We see more players than anyone, we take the rankings very seriously.  It sort of becomes our report card. We know what happens when we rank someone highly.  The decision makers pay very close attention.

 

BTW, sometimes you can rank a player high after watching him for a few minutes.  They stand out like a sore thumb!

 

How many times do you suppose basketball scouts had to watch Lebron James before knowing he deserved a very high ranking?

1.  Rankings are based on draft criteria?  I can tell you there are kids who are ranked 1,000 and they will be drafted this year.  They've not been able to attend showcase events for economic reasons but according to what you're saying, it wouldn't matter.  Only draft draft criteria...Right?  No respect from PG but plenty from those that count.

 

2.  No favoritism? I will not mention kids names obviously so it makes it hard to respond to your defensiveness.  I can only tell you what I witness.  Stats not properly kept or reported is one way you show your bias.  It happened PERIOD.  I was certainly not going to call your office about it but you need to be sure your people keeping the velo, hits, and errors get it right if it is at all important. 

 

3."Lastly, the more players we see that deserve a certain ranking, results in someone moving down a notch."  

Huh?!  So if a kid does well while you are watching or even when you're not watching, the kids who are consistent performers can be moved down?  You have kids who haven't played in a PG tournament then get moved ahead of those who have been kicking butt.  Your logic makes no sense.  I'm glad you're not running college football polls. 

 

 

I see you are a parent.  A hard one at that.

 

It certainly is possible that we have someone ranked too low and they will be drafted.  Then again we may not have them ranked too low before the draft takes place. Don't you suppose we communicate with the scouting community.  Yet you know all these kids that will be drafted eight months before the draft. If that is true, do you want a job? There are a few kids in our top 100 that might go undrafted.  We just on't know for sure who they are.  Mind telling us?

 

You are back on the score keeping thing.  Scorekeeping has nothing to do with the rankings! Justin Upton went something like 0-20 in this tournament.  After that we ranked him number one.  

 

Please, read what I'm trying to tell you.  I feel like I'm talking to the wall.  If you are here come on up in the Blue Tower and ask me and our staff any question you want.  As long as it isn't about the food we will answer every question you have. Maybe you can talk to a couple MLB executives while you're up here.

 

I'm confused why you are complaining so much if you are actually in Jupiter.  Makes me think there is nothing that would satisfy you. I'm sorry if we have somehow underestimated your son.  I'm sure there are kids out there that we still haven't seen that will get drafted next year.  We will keep searching for them.

 

I'm complaining huh?  If anyone says one critical word about PG, you immediately start in with the insults.  So you have the right to be offended but a player or parent doesn't have that right when they are overlooked.  Let me inform you that it is not just the parents that believe PG has its guys who they pump.  Players who simply outwork, out hustle, and out play others have earned the right to be a little sideways when you guys are touting loud out hang times.  Unreal!

 

Finally,  re-read the post.  I'm saying I have seen first hand scoring and reporting gimmes. That's all.  Nothing to do with a player's stats and rankings. I raise the point to support my contention that you guys aren't entirely unbiased.  

 

It's ok for someone to criticize you.  PG has done very well because it has put out the best product.  End of story.  With that influence comes responsibility.  When people raise concerns about credibility , I think it comes with the territory.  You don't get better with people only singing your praises.  If your score keeper is giving a guy a pass, don't you want to know about it?  

My take is that the OP's posts are like a fart in church -- you can't deny it happened, but everyone is better off just not acknowledging it.

As the OP I'm certainly not trying to start anything here.....just new to the process and trying to learn.  Hard to understand if it was just one person that evaluated someone at 1 or 2 events, or does it take at least 2 separate scouts/evaluators to come up with these rankings.

 

Well as someone not currently involved and probably won't be at the MLB level, I think there is some confusion about what PG (or any of it competitors) really is.  Is it about MLB scouting or college scouting?  Or really a bit of both because the best high school players get to choose between the draft and college (unlike any other sport).  Take something like the Jupiter tournament -- seem really like an MLB tournament as many players on the top teams are "committed" to a D1 school.  That is much different from a 2018 level tournament. 

 

Then there is the inherent problems with rankings.  Whether its the top 10 NFL quarterbacks or todays high school players there is plenty of room for disagreement.  Myself, I see it more in terms of larger groups.  What is the difference between the number 10 player and 11?  Or number 15 and 20?  Or 40 and 50?  They are all darn good.  Then take into account the sear number of high school players and it is impossible that PG will see everyone at every event.  I am sure there are some Football/Baseball guys getting ready for their football playoff runs and not able to make Jupiter. 

 

And finally, does it really matter.  Sometimes you just need to "shut up and play." 

 

And heck, I'll continue.  With due respect to PG and their competitors, I don't think any MLB organization actually relies on their opinions anyway.  I was listening to Cubs brass on the radio the other day talking about one of their young kids (I think it was Schwarber) and they had something like 10 to 15 people in their organization look at him before they drafted him.  They did their own homework. 

I'll say Schwarber has done pretty well for himself (more hitting than fielding) for a PG rated "9".

Jim,

Sounds like perhaps your son hasn't been rated or ranked as high as you feel he should be.

If your son is good, has talent, good grades and has exposure he will get an opportunity no matter where anyone ranks or rates him or if he was written up at an event or not him up or not.

How do you know who will or will not get drafted? Are you a scout?

Just asking....

 

 

 

I will admit that this topic used to bug me a bit but basically it comes down to being biased as a dad.

I looked at our state rankings. My son has for the last three years played with or against the top 20 in our state and will play with a couple at the next level.  I look at that 20 and think yeah it's about right or at least in the ballpark.

Of those 20 maybe 2-3 will be drafted in a spot where a decision will have to be made.  Sign ability, injury, talent all play into that so really outside of X (you pick your own number) the ranking matters little as that player isn't getting drafted for lots of legit reasons.

I also think outside of that X number the rankings can be pretty inaccurate and really aren't relevant.  My son is a perfect example.  He is ranked one spot behind another teammate who is a pitcher as well. Neither are current draft prospects.  My son gets the ball as the closer with the game on the line and was in this role in Jupiter while the other player well.....Son has been all tourney in almost every PG event played over last 3 years and MVP of Super 25 this year.  But several know his story. RHP with max velo of 85-86 currently makes him a non starter with pro scouts out of HS.  So guess what his ranking of rating doesn't matter at all in any way shape or form.   He's not getting drafted. 

My son to his credit never has been concerned about any of this or his ranking.  He has put his head down and worked hard ready to take the ball and compete his butt off when asked.  He's been fortunate that one of the best travel programs in the country saw something and gave him an opportunity regardless of what the radar gun or rankings say.  Through all this he's fortunate to get to sign with his dream school in a few weeks. 

Rankings for those outside of the "draftable pool" who cares if you are number 1 or 1000 in that group.  I have yet to see or hear of a player get an opportunity or more importantly not get an opportunity based on some ranking.  Focusing on that by player and even parent just puts one more obstacle in the way IMO.

My son has this hanging in his room:

 

I am in competition with no one.

I have no desire to play the game of being better than anyone.

I am simply trying to be better than the person I was yesterday.

 

There just isn't a topic on this site more tired than this one. The above quote from NYdad says it all. You don't like PG, don't go. That simple. 

You know when people complained about Lake PoInt charging teams for water, they were right and we fixed it.

 

When people complained about no American Flag, we agreed and now there is one of the largest flags in Georgia.

 

When people complain about Scorekeeping, they could be right and we double check and fix it.

 

We (I) listen to legitimate complaints.  But when someone accuses you of lacking integrity I am going to stand up and speak the truth.  We could be wrong, but to think we are favoring one player over another for any reason other than ability is just plain stupid. We simply couldn't do that and remain viable. We have absolutely no reason for doing it. There have been many (most) players pay to attend many PG events that are not ranked at all.  There are a lot of good players that are not ranked.  We don't really care who the best prospects are we just recognize those we think are the best prospects.  And all we can go by is the results.  So far (for 20 years) those results are very good.

 

These complaints pop up often.  Then come June every year nobody complains about the rankings.  Then a few months later another parent feels we are slighting their son and it starts all over again.  I'm fine with someone thinking we are wrong, but not someone claiming we are wrong on purpose.

 

People are always welcome to complain, but I am not going to read a bunch of "accusations" that are not true, without responding.  Some might think these things should be ignored, that it is bad business to respond.  You see, I really don't care because I hate business.  Never have I ever thought of myself as a businessman. We have other people that take care of the business stuff.

 

I apologize to all those that get tired of reading about PG on here. 

My problem with the rankings is how the kids feel about it more so than anything else!  PG's responses to how the ratings are conducted are a non-answer / answer.  Most of the responses here are most definitely biased towards PG.  I GET IT! They produce great tournaments and provide a lot of good advice on this board. But at the end of the day, if rankings don't matter then why do it?  

 

Perfect Game has done very well financially.  It makes me very sad for the kids who cannot afford to attend their showcase events and subsequently get ranked very low.  Again,  ratings don't matter one bit, right? 

 

My questions to PG is this...Do you believe ratings matter to the kids?  For the rest of you who think I'm a dad who has a kid who is vying for a spot on a D3 roster somewhere, you're wrong.  I'm a guy with a little bit of moral courage who is standing up and saying PG has become too influential and is one contributor to the overall problem with baseball.  It has become a game of haves and haves not.  

 

About my son...He is heading to a D1 school in a major conference (read SEC, ACC, PAC10) and will likely be drafted this year.  No I don't have the contract in hand nor would I tell him to sign.  My gripe about ratings is about a lot of kids who are short changed.  I see it everyday.  I'd use specific examples but I'm not going to use a kid's name.  That's to my disadvantage in this debate but I guess it doesn't matter.  

Jim,

My son was ranked about a 50 in HS. He wasn't drafted. College commitment killed it. He was ranked first round out of college and made it to the second. Ranking by Baseball America by the guy who now works for PG. He was also ranked 9th freshman in the country.

Did my son care, no. It had no bearing on who he was or where he was going. 

Did I care, yes, did it matter no.

This is a business Tim. It is hype, just like MLB write ups are.Its ok, its good stuff.  No coach or scout is going to offer or sign anyone who they have never seen play. Was your son offered on what the coach saw or read somewhere. Of course not!

 

So how do you know your son will get drafted? Because of his commitment? Because some scout dropped by? Or GM?  Does it matter if he is drafted and never signs? Absolutely not.

No, not everyone can attend a PG event or showcase. There are plenty of events that one can showcase your skills without ever having a PG rating or ranking.  

 

You keep harping on the same thing. We get how you feel.  Its boring, you are boring. PG isn't going anywhere. Tons of kids will still get signed and drafted without them.

 

Since you believe in being so outspoken, why not tell us where your son is headed and who you are.  Why be so vague, which conference?  

 

I will stick with my original theory. You feel that your son is being overlooked. 

But he has managed to get a big conference school to want him. So Jim, does it matter whether he was ranked or rated hi or not? Or does it just bother you he isn't. And let's give it up for all those kids you feel sorry for being overlooked. OK?

Oh and Jim, if the kids are upset over their ranking or rating, its because mom and dad are as well!

 

 

       
       


A swing and a miss!  On my point that is. I am glad you were able to tell everyone about your son again. That's good to hear...again.

I was making a point, that was years ago...its still the same.  You take it for what it is. You don't like it, don't go. 

What moral duty are you supplying us with anyway? 
I could give specific examples, kids never ranked or rated high and to this day ML players.

Are stats reported incorrectly going to change where the player is viewed as to who will offer or draft him? NO!  Is it exciting to read about the top prospects who will be major leaguers someday..YES!
Why dont you just answer the questions Jim?

Hi Charliebball, I think the short answer to your question is someone somewhere saw the 2017 do something really cool and his name got put on a list.

 

I think of PG rankings like actors being discovered, it takes both skill and luck to make it on their radar.  The more you are seen, the more likely you are to be seen doing something really cool.  Keep in mind they see thousands, if not 10's of thousands of kids EVERY year!  PGStaff admits that they have missed some, but I agree that they get it right more than they get it wrong.

It's all about the $$$$. Pay for several showcases and your rating will rise. PG will also let you take extra BP during the showcase if your first round doesn't go well and put you on the summer ball all star team with a 167 batting average (we know he's better). From what I've seen the more $$$$ you spend on showcases relates to how much love you get.

   

Wouldn't that be the nature of the beast.  I mean really, given the sheer number of HS players, it would be impossible for anyone to get several looks at many of the players to make an evaluation.  The more times they can see you, the better the evaluation can be, no? 

 

But in the end, what does the PG rank mean anyway?  I would posit (with due respect to PG and others), jack squat.  I don't think any recruiter/scout cares if a kid is ranked no. 10 or 20.  What they really want (at least I would) is a first culling of the herd -- these 1000 players are "worth" a look.  Then I can do my homework. 

How is it different than hiring a headhunter or job recruiting service to fulfill a position at your work? Could there have been a "better" candidate sitting in his mom's basement somewhere? Of course - but how are we supposed to find the guy? 

 

You play with the hand you are dealt. As someone hiring dozens of employees I can't spend time worrying about "who else may be out there", I have to focus on the most efficient way to fill my needs. The same holds true for college & pro scouts. Sure, they could comb the back country roads looking for the next Luke LaLoosh, or they could go to one place over one weekend with 100+ teams of pre-qualified candidates, where they can make educated observations of the players in a real game environment AND have online scouting reports, rankings, etc. to help them reinforce their findings. 

 

One last note on this - no different than with a job placement service, if they don't provide the employer with legitimately qualified candidates they won't be in the job placement service for long. They give me one bad hire, and they will never get us as a client again. Same holds true for PG. They rank a bunch of stiffs in the top 100, then why would scouts keep going to their tournaments & showcases? Makes zero business sense. 

Damn shame this topic is being played out while the final games in Jupiter are in progress. 

Unless I am a lot dumber than I think I am PG has enough money.  Its about pride.  Pride in trying to call things as accurately as they can.  Will they make mistakes?  Have you checked the success rate of first round draft choices in the various sports?  Not an easy business and lots of mistakes are made.  But to suggest they are made intentionally?  I am open minded to the moon landing being a hoax but this I can not buy!

There was a prospect a few years back, he had it all going to for him. Quirky lefty and threw hard, real hard. Everyone thought the kid was going MLB on the fast track.

 

PG were the only ones who saw the kid for what he was - Sidd Finch never had a rating above 7!!

@joemktg:  That's why Al Gore invented tabbed Internet browsing and GameChanger!

 

Between softball and baseball, I have spent more than a few years (okay, decades) going to showcase events and high level tournaments (both as a coach and a parent).  Is PG perfect?  Nope.  Are they imperfect on purpose?  Definitely not.  Do they put out a great product and quality events?  Absolutely.

 

Like any other vendor (ProspectWire, Showball, PBR, TCS, AAU, AFC, USSSA, etc.), PG sets out to put forth a great product.  Whether the motivation is purely monetary, love-of-the-game, or a mixture of both....does it really matter?

 

Should rankings be as completely unbiased as possible?  Sure, but unless PG has starting employing sabremetric robots (TrackMan is getting close), aren't they always going to be subjective?  What one evaluator sees as a big upside might be seen as a detriment by another.  In the end, beauty/ability/protential is in the eye of each evaluator.  Nobody is going to be 100% right 100% of the time, but at PG they do a pretty good job.  The one thing PG does better than just about anybody else:  They get a BUNCH of folks in ONE PLACE to see YOUR PLAYER.  Call it a meat market, call it a target-rich environment, call it whatever you want.  In the end you attend PG events to get your player seen/evaluated by as many folks as possible.

 

I've seen some pretty bad favoritism and some definite "homer" umpires at what would be considered nationally recognized organizations.  Taking all of them into account, PG is still the gold standard for amateur baseball at the HS level.

 

If you don't like the vendor or service, contact them and try to resolve the issue.  If you're still not satisfied, give your business to somebody else.  What you probably shouldn't do is come on a board that has overwhelming support for an organization (based on personal past experience with that organization) and repeatedly try to bash them and make accusations you can't or won't substantiate.  It's a foolish and unsustainable argument.

You're about 6 3/4 months late (or 5 1/4 months early) for this one, aren't you old_school?  Great story though!

Not asking for an actual analysis, but I bet it would be very interesting to see how class rankings get funneled down from the entire population of players in that class.  Including High Follow/Follow, I'm guessing less than 5% get included (maybe half that).  I'm betting the top 200-300 are probably know by name and multiple PG staff can compare these individuals.  Moving down to the follow list, these may be individuals that maybe flashed potential during a tournament or showcase which got them recognized and might garner them a higher rating if they can repeat at a later date.  As PGStaff discussed, there are no individual ratings assigned to the High Follow and Follow lists other than the default ratings assigned (particularly by state).  Not that I want to fuel this discussion about "preferences", but I think if someone is calling into question the rankings, they should include a comment about what level of ranking is in question.  Probably a HUGE difference in precision in the 1-100 (very finite ranking) compared to the 1,000-1,500 (a little more guesswork).  Also, the comment about Upton going 0-20 and still getting ranked #1 ought to give readers some insight into factors considered most important in a player's future potential - stats not being the driving force.

Feeble attempt to add a little levtiy to the forum!!

 

PG is good organization, they make mistakes, parents are stupid sometimes, business sometimes make exceptions for preferred clients, to the best of my knowledge PG is the best out there at this time...it is supposed to be fun people, a rating isn't going to make or break you, not many are going to make a living playing baseball...honestly lets all breath a little bit.

 

PG sometimes it is better to just ignore blinded parents and stick to the good things you do and how to make your organization better!!

 

Oh and please fix that freakin parking problem in GA before July!!!

 

Isn't there a baseball game on tonight??

Please leave Georgia out of this....my kid would sleep on a bench at Lakepoint, if I would let him, just to wake up to the pretty fields!

I do wish everyone understood... Let me repeat... There are players that have attended many events, spent a lot of money... That are NOTranked.

 

They don't get extra swings, every single person has exactly the same opportunity to display their skills.  

 

I really wonder why people are saying anything different.  What would be the reason, or better yet some proof, when some say their is favoritism involved in anything we do?  

 

That said, wonder what would happen if we actually did rank players based on how much money they spend?  Oh yea, we would have been out of business many years ago because the results of our rankings would have been a travesty.  No college or MLB club would follow our stuff.  The best players would have no reason to attend our events.

 

For the few of you that don't get it... Wake up! For anyone that believes the naysayers, please understand, it makes no difference how much money you spend on PG.  The only advantage is that we will see you more often.  It doesn't mean you will be ranked any higher or ranked at all.  Your money has nothing to do with the rankings.

 

We once lost a big sponsorship opportunity simply because we ranked someone's son where we thought he should be rather than where dad thought he should be ranked.  We could have really used that sponsorship back when that happened.

 

Last thing on this subject.. we get contacted often by parents questioning our ranking of their son.  When that happens we take another long look to see if perhaps we have made a mistake.  I suggest that anyone that legitimately thinks we have made a mistake to contact us... staff@perfectgame.org

 

Truth is we do make mistakes at times.  Scouts make mistakes at times.  Nobody is trying to make these mistakes.  In fact, we do want to be perfect, it's just impossible.

I can absolutely attest that this is 100% untrue. We have a friend that brought their poor son to showcase after showcase spending a heck of a lot of $$$ and got not a lot of love in return.... unless you consider going from a 5.5 to a 6 love. We spent a minor fraction of the amount they spent and my son is ranked. Not super high but ranked none the less. 

Can't help but laugh at some of these posts and how riduculous they have become..."the more $$$$ you spend on showcases relates to how much love you get"...come on now, serious?  2018 went to his first event in august...had a not so hot showing during the games and still walked away with an "ok" score...the most important piece of the whole trip was two-fold...one was his detailed write-up...notes like, "high levels of physical projection", "swings with intent", "good arm side run" to "inconsistent load" all have helped in the months following the showcase (a prime example as to how much time and energy they spend in evaluating the players).  The second was the experience not only for him, but for both of us...we made it a father-son trip and had a blast.  Also, while walking downtown Boston we just so happened to run into the showcase director (which was crazy in itself) and chatted with him for a few minutes about the showcase, how it was run, and how now knowing the structure, timeline (wait time), etc will help prepare for future showcases.  While this is long winded, my point is that you get out of it what you put into and no, i'm not talking about the $$ that it costs...the experience, the time with your son, the ability to learn from the event, etc...it's priceless.  Couple that with PG Staff continuing to answer our questions and participate in forums like these have helped not only me, but I'm sure countless others out there.  I get on these forums on a daily basis and enjoy reading posts that i can learn and contribute to...not the other way around.

Sunshine West Showcase 2013, I watched an excellent player (already rated a 10 by PG) have a not so great round of batting practice. He was allowed a second round. When asked by another dad if his kid could take a second round he was told "no time for that." The excellent player had 5 or 6 showcases under his belt.

 

I have no issues with PG, I wouldn't make this up. I witnesses what you attest is 100% untrue. Were you there? IMO, spend some money of a few showcases and good thing will happen. 

Agree w this mostly, but in college specifically u r in competition w your own teammates to an extent. Your fighting for a starting position, and new guys are coming in every yr ready to fight for their chance. It's great to have personal goals to improve, and it's a team sport, but your always fighting/working for your spot. Doesn't mean your not a team player and u can still have good relationships w teammates. Just competitive, as all sports are.

im6471, I'm sure this did happen, as I'm sure you would not come on here and lie.  However, one instance does not make this an institutional philosophy.  Who really knows what happened here or why it happened.  If this happened on a regular basis, many more people would be saying something about it.  But to take one instance that happened at one showcase does not mean that PG's philosophy is to favor the kids who pay a lot of money to go to multiple showcases.  It's like saying that Jamie Moyer only throws 82, so all pitchers that throw 82 are going to be in the MLB.  It's an exception, not a rule...

 

I know my son would not disagree with that.  He's competed for a position through HS and travel.  But his opinion, and admittedly it's what I taught him, is that you seek to make yourself better.  Not better than someone else, as that creates an end point. You always want to make yourself a better version of "you", if that makes sense.