PG Ratings vs HS ability

TPM,

Yes, that does happen at times.

To be honest we talk to college coaches nearly every day. While I'd like to believe our opinions are respected, those opinions are not the gospel. I would say we tend to share opinions with college coaches as much as we give them.

Interesting enough, most people think we gather all this information and give it to college coaches. Truth is, we also get a ton of information from college coaches. In some cases the very first time we ever heard about a young player it came from a college coach. (Usually a player they can't get )After all, the real good college recruiters are great scouts and work hard looking for special talent.

The college coaches and professional scouts don't get enough credit for much of what we do in identifying players. Yes, they use us, but we use them, too.

1st of all, Fascinating topic:
Here is what I heard from a parent lately (not kidding). "If your kid aint playin' varsity as a sophomore you might as well forget him playin' college ball. Most every college player was the star at their high school, started as a freshman, had around a .500 batting average or could pitch lights out. Just look it up and you'll see. I'm tellin' ya, they were all studs in high school. How do ya think the college coaches knew about them, because they made the local papers and scouts came to their games."

Ok, so that's what I have heard from more than one parent believe it or not.

Now, while it may be true that if you were to look up a college baseball player who is doing well at baseball in college (example might be Brian Walker--former Arkansas and Nebraska Player)...and go back to his high school bio, it would be likely that he jumps off the page pretty well with stats and just maybe was a 4-year starter on Varsity, BUT, is this the exception to the rule, average rule-of-thumb, or not so likely?
I believe that an above average college player probably did jump off the page (as far as stats) in high school but an average college player or non-starter or below average college player may have been a star toward end of HS career. Those that have projectability probably grow and develop late as well where as some 4-year varsity starter flame-out and probably matured as a senior (not to say that’s true for the masses at all) ,.....not my point at all. But just think about this and it gets real sticky because predictions don't work.

PG,
Thanks for the reply and most important of all, that you for clearing up any misconceptions that many have regarding role in HS and playing or not playing college ball.

I think there are many players and their folks out there that do believe if they are not on the varsity team by junior year, or a senior starter, it's going to be tough to get to the next level (college) and get panic stricken. There are a lot of options available to overcome obstacles... showcases, tournies, college camps, summer travel ball. I want parents to understand just because they are reading that XYZ's son made varsity as a freshman, sophmore doesn't necessarily mean
XYZ's son is a future college D1 player or draft choice.
JUCO is a great starting point for players who did not have as much playing time in HS as they needed to get better or be starters on their varsity team. I have seen LOTS of players grow up in JUCO programs, get valuable playing time to move onto D1 opportunities OR drafted.

I think there is a lot of personal interest in this topic from those who read often but may not post and trying to find out where their son belongs in the HS scheme of things. Only when you are willing to put forth effort for true evaluation will one know how to move forward. A parent, most often is not qualified to evaluate their own child's ability. I wouldn't go by those that are giving your son lessons either, seek qualified individuals who will be able to be unbiased.

It is also important to understand in most cases, the HS coach plays very little role in recruiting. This is not a knock on any HS coach, but IMO, most HS coaches are NOT like those like Coach May. Most sit in their own little corner of the world comparing those in their own little division, and don't get around much, don't watch the college game, don't attend tournies, etc.

switchitter,

I had a pro scout tell me the same thing, believe it or not.

And he's dead wrong.

First of all, some kids develop late.

Other kids get messed up by bad coaching. We had kids languish under one coach. We changed coaches, and players who'd barely gotten to play before suddenly blossomed. OK, so they were one year older, but still ...

Also, it depends on your program. Some schools are deep in talent and a sophomore will just have to wait. Others are desperate for talent and will start freshmen. Most schools will see both things happen over a period of years, because talent naturally ebbs and flows in most places.

TPM,
As far as the average ranking for a HS player here are the percentages for 2009's who were rated. There were somewhat over 1600 players. Please note there are a lot more players in the database who don't have a rating.

10.0 Top 2.5%
9.5 4.7% to 2.5% - midpoint 3.6%
9.0 9.5% to 4.7% - midpoint 7.1%
8.5 19.3% to 9.5% - midpoint 14.4%
8.0 34.7% to 19.3% - midpoint 27%
7.5 52.8% to 34.7% - midpoint 43.8%
7.0 76.7% to 52.8% - midpoint 64.8%

I'll stop there.

Based on those numbers I'd say a 7.5 is above average for 2009s who have been rated at a PG showcase as their average would be about the top 44%. There are some details involved such as players who are 2009's who haven't received a rating recently that would throw it off a bit, but in general this seems to be a fair indication.

Other than CASon, there were 6 players, all underclassmen, from our league who played in a recent showcase. Our league is one of the strongest leagues in the strongest division in the CIF Southern Section. The player's rankings were 6.5, 7.0, 7.0, 7.5, 7.5, 8.5. The 7.5s and the 8.5 are returning varsity players this season. The 7.0 junior will play varsity this season and the 7.0 sophmore will probably play varsity, but I haven't seen their roster yet. The 6.5 junior is on varsity, but may not play that much for a team that has a shot at ending up nationally ranked. This small sample seems to match up pretty well with PG's thoughts.

Just guessing of course, but other than CASon our program has a couple senior pitchers who would probably be rated 8.5 and 9.0, a sophmore pitcher who would probably be rated an 8.5 or at least an 8.0 as he's about 84 max on a Stalker and a freshman pitcher, on the freshman team, who would probably be rated about the same as he's about 80 max on a Stalker coming off a layoff. My best guess is that none of the other pitchers or position players on varsity would be rated over a 7.5 with 2 or 3 at 6.5 or less. My guess is that team will do quite well outside league and be around .500 in league as there are a couple teams in the league who have shots at national rankings.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

It is also important to understand in most cases, the HS coach plays very little role in recruiting. .......Most sit in their own little corner of the world comparing those in their own little division, and don't get around much, don't watch the college game, don't attend tournies, etc.

That is a very BOLD statement and I would love to see any stats that back that up. HS coaches love to see their teams succeed and that "recruited athlete" is their golden egg. There would be nothing more important in their career to feel that they were part of that process. Coach May is the exception to the rule, most coaches are involved but very few are as "in touch" as Coach May.

With that said I'm sure there are coaches who fall within tpm's grouping but to say in "most cases" is stretching things a bit. IMHO

I am finding that at the HS level we are seeing more and more coaches calling us about their players and getting more and more involved every year

We even see a few of them show up at showcases and tournaments to watch their kids in action

rz,
I think it runs the gamut and sometimes it takes coaches a while to get comfortable with evaluating a player and not worrying that if they're wrong it is going to hurt their reputation or something of the sort. Nobody gets them all right.

Don't care whether you think it is a BOLD statement or not. I never said that they do not like to see their teams succeed did I. I said they are concerned with what happens in their season in their district, in their county, maybe in their state.
There concerns lie within their job, their lives and here cannot coach their players in the off season. They leave the recruiting to the summer travel team coaches, who have better relationships with college coaches throughout the country.

I am glad that TR has reported that many of the players HS coaches are taking more of an interest. Maybe this does not pertain to the coaches who post here, but I still stand by my original statement.

CADad, I just think HS coaches are involved to a higher degree than some say they are and should be given credit. One of my best friends is a HS coach and said that recruiting is a "hot topic" among coaches and that the coaches he is familiar with nation wide are all involved in the recruitment of their players .

quote:

tpm quote:
I never said that they do not like to see their teams succeed did I.

Did I say you did?

All I'm saying is that coaches are involved in recruiting, and you say they are not. That was your quote.

Am I in the doghouse again for not agreeing with your opinion?

The first person to call son after a big post-season win was his High School baseball coach! He was very supportive when it came to recruiting and always made himself and son available to college coaches, filled out recommendations and questionaires on a timely basis, etc. We were very fortunate!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
If the entire recruiting and scouting world based everything on what happens in high school baseball, then they would be saying the high school coach is the most important determining factor in evaluating players. We should all know that isn't the way it works.

There are many great high school coaches who deserve that respect, but ask any college coach or scout how much value they place on “most” player evaluations they receive from high school coaches.


(For Will) Ahead of time… This is not an attempt to downgrade high school coaches. There are some great ones and many good ones, but there are also many who just don’t get it. Surely the real good high school coaches are aware of this. If anyone disagrees, just go ask the nearest college coach or professional scout.

rz,
Did you read this or just read my post?

rz1

You want the upper or lower bunk in the doghouse ?

Can't argue with pg's post because he did not say

quote:

tpm quote:
It is also important to understand in most cases, the HS coach plays very little role in recruiting.

He was talking of HS coaches evaluations to college coaches. If a HS coach is sending evaluations that means they are involved.

Did you read my post?

quote:

rz1

You want the upper or lower bunk in the doghouse ?

TRhit

TR,

I've seen both of you and in the interest of safety would recommend you take the top bunk!

PG

Only if somebody helps me in and out

Maybe RZ could just toss you up there!

quote:

rz1
You want the upper or lower bunk in the doghouse ?

Will give you both nice accomodations even though I know you wouldn't extend the same courtesy.

Ok I will retract my statement and make an adjustment as I may have overstated my intent. Yes, HS coaches should fill out forms that's part of their responsibility to their players and part of their role I mentioned.

quote:

tpm quote:
Will give you both nice accomodations even though I know you wouldn't extend the same courtesy.

I can just imagine our cots tied to a Cyprus in alligator alley? TR, I'll take the top bunk

TPM You're always welcome to my neck of the woods as long as you bring some sun and warm weather with you

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rz1:

I can just imagine our cots tied to a Cyprus in alligator alley? TR, I'll take the top bunk

no way our doghouses doggy spas here are very luxurious, rooms with a view, matresses, cable TV (movies shown at night), piped in music, play pools, play yards. Owners going away on vacation can view via internet to see how their loved ones are doing.

I'll make sure you both get good treatment.

rz,
I don't know what the answer really is. Our coach doesn't have a good rep for helping players get into college but he's very quickly filled out all the evaluations from colleges we've asked him to, so our experience with that part of it doesn't match what we've heard. CASon has also been able to showcase a bit and do college camps without much if any conflict with summer or winter ball so that hasn't been an issue so far either.

I'm just speculating but he may get a bad rap from not being overly willing to tell people when a certain pitcher is going to pitch. That is not that unusual for HS coaches who don't want scouts running their team for them.

I've also seen him try to help some kids get into schools where he knew the coach. Sometimes kids try to get into schools where it is a bit of a stretch and it is dangerous for a coach to over sell them. In CASon's case I think he and I have similar ideas as to his longer term potential.

CADad,
Does your son play fall and summer with his HS coach?

Yes

quote:

Our coach doesn't have a good rep for helping players get into college

I've seen that also, and in the situations I'm familiar with the complaints have come from parents wearing the "rose tinted glasses". Mom and Dad see D1 in Junior's plans and the coach sees it, "not as rosy", and will not put his rep on the line. As a result he is perceived as "not helping". I'm not naive enough to say all HS coaches go out of their way to get players to the next level but I believe that given the opportunity most will do the right thing. It's important to make recruiting a group effort that involves the player, coach, parents, guidance councilor, and select team coaches. Strength is in numbers.

In my area we don't have the select teams that other parts of the country may have and I think there are many other places in this country in the same boat. Our HS coaches are many times the main conduit to colleges and I get a little on edge when folks in rich "select baseball" areas think that their situations are the status quo nation wide. This is by no means a rip on any HSBBW poster but I think it is important that we respect the fact that not all areas are the same, and sometimes regional opinions can be construed as national gospel. IMHO

RZ,

I thought your son played with the Blazers. If so, I would consider them a select team. Though they only play in the fall.

RZ, I can sure identify with what you're saying about finding a select team. Back when Bum, Jr. was 13 we moved to Nevada for about a year. What an experience! He played 130+ games in a year against teams from the Southwest and California.. it was a big boost to his game. When we had to go back to Eastern Washington I had a heck of a time finding top-level competition but I eventually did. It just took a lot of homework, a willingness to travel, and an emphasis on training and throwing indoors. It can be done, though. The biggest thing is to avoid the temptation to completely shutdown in the offseason.. those California kids aren't!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
RZ,

I thought your son played with the Blazers. If so, I would consider them a select team. Though they only play in the fall.

Ryan was fortunate that he got on one of the two select teams in the State in the winter of 2001 and in all played in less than 20 Blazer games and never an outdoor practice, and it involved an 75 mile drive one way to Milw. Even today unless your from Milw, or have the resources to make the drive, you are stuck with summer Legion ball. I know PG has now started a Fall League in Milw but that is one corner of the State that has select ball.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
RZ,

I thought your son played with the Blazers. If so, I would consider them a select team. Though they only play in the fall.

If I recall rz's son attended PG tournie in Jupiter same year as my son and remember it was with the Blazers. If that was managed by the HS coach, then it's obvious he did have a role in the recruitment process, as I am assuming that the team came from Wisconsin to Florida for exposure same reason why many teams attend Jupiter.

Here in FL (at least when son was in HS but don't think it is changed)paid HS employees who coach baseball are not allowed to coach the player in the off season. Many times the unpaid assistant will take on that job but can be misunderstood as the coaches eyes and ears and very difficult to pull off. My son's HS coaches coach baseball, football and volleyball and are paid to do so. They work full time in the summer for extra money, very few can afford to not to, our teachers don't get paid well so I doubt if they could they would coach their teams. So therefore in some rich "select baseball" areas the reason you have select baseball is because you have no choice in the off season. It might also be surprising to learn that even though located in a scout populated state, where you will find scouts at many games, there are very few relatively good baseball programs, I do beleive there are only D1 programs, NAIA and JUCOs. If you are not a D1 player you need to seek elsewhere. It is very difficult to get into a top D1 school here to play, just ask jmepop, ask Dad04. If you want to play baseball other than for the local JUCOS (who by the way have great bb programs) you must make an effort to find a "select team" on your own to play and be seen everywhere you can. Tournaments, showcases, here is no different than most situations across the US, maybe even harder. The only coaches I ever saw regularly at games was from FIU, FAU, local. Since my sons travel summer team used FAU as there home field and hosted tournies, the FAU coach was at every game. Convenience.

My son's recruiting coach from Clemson did not see him at a HS game. Neither did the other schools that recruited him (mostly out of state). Neither did UM, or UF instate schools.

We all know that is why travel teams are so abundant, it gives the recruit an opportunity he never had available before and the same with coaches. If your HS coach has a relationship with local college coaches, you might be lucky, if that is what you want to do, but I think that is not normal in the recruiting scheme of things nationwide.

Please do not get me wrong, I have known my son's HS coach for 8 years, we are very good friends. He is very proud of my son's accomplishments but he knows that his role was just being his high school coach. He will never take credit for anything else but that fact. He answered all the questionaires given to him, but discussions on son's ability with college coaches was nil, the first ones and only ones called were his travel team coaches. Why? My son spent more time with the HS coaches than his other coaches? Could it be that is because in the short time frame he played he faced almost every top player in the state, traveled to other states to face national talent? Who would have been a better to judge his ability? Who would you make that phone call to?
Listen this is not to say that there are some really great HS coaches who teach their players everything they need to know. I know of one situation where a recruit has one of the best HS coaches in the state but it was his travel team who took all the kudos for his signing. I am sure that happens often. The HS coach is often perceived as doing nothing to help get the recruit signed, which he most likely didn't becauseof his limited role he is allowed to be with the player.

I do beleive that some HS coaches will purposely not get into the recruiting process with their players. Some beleive that it's either all or nothing, just out of fairness and not to be misunderstood as favoritism but will gladly take a phone call from a college coach, but will not go out looking for a place for the recruit. That is why, if you leave that process up to the HS coach you will not get results, it is up to the recruit to do his own work in that regards. And as mentioned, how many HS coaches want to get a reputation for sending a player to a school and not have the player live up to the expectations? Most, IMO, are very happy to turn over that assesment to the select travel team coach.

As far as making the statement that HS coaches exist in their own world, that is not a knock. How many HS coaches travel the country or state with their players to be able to make an honest assesment of their players talent. They only have the immediate area (in our case our county) to be able to see other players during season. How many go to tournies or showcases to compare talent. How many have opportunities to go watch the college game in person to know if their player can play on a D1,D2,D3 level? How many would even want to evenif they had the opportunity.

FWIW,
How does a top D1 program in South Carolina find players that come from California, Florida, Washington State, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maine, WISCONSIN?

Who would be more likely to get the credit, the HS coach, the scout watching out for him to supply information, attending showcases, tournies or the college recruiter doing his job?

The key is NETWORKING !!!!

quote:

tpm quote:
If I recall rz's son attended PG tournie in Jupiter same year as my son and remember it was with the Blazers.

Good memory but that was in his Jr year and he had already verbally committed. The Blazers had no input or part of his school choice. Ryan in conjunction with his HS coach did that work. The Blazers do great work in getting guys recruited but they are one of two select teams in the whole State. If the Blazers wanted a competitive game we had to go to a different State to find a game and that was during a 8 week Fall season. Ryan had 5 guys in his HS graduating class that went on to play in college and only Ryan played travel ball, and to think about it Ryan was only 1 of 2 Non-Milw area players on the team.

quote:

tpm quote:
We all know that is why travel teams are so abundant,

I don't know if I'd go as far to say 2 travel teams in the whole State as being abundant. This is one of those instances that regional comments are made with a National reference with very little background knowledge. PG is the most fabulous program HS baseball has to offer but it cannot cover the masses. Travel ball may be the "way" of FL and other States but it is not the only way.

quote:

tpm quote:
I do beleive that some HS coaches will purposely not get into the recruiting process with their players.

I doubt you would be well received at a HS coaching convention with that attitude, at least in my neck of the woods.

Let me say it very straight. In WISCONSIN the HS coaches are the main conduit to College baseball. I understand that WI has only 1 D1 team but it has one of the strongest d3 conferences in the country and very good D2 and NAIA squads and those teams are mostly filled with WI players and most of them did not play travel baseball. I know it is not the "power baseball" you are accustomed to but that level of baseball is the minority in the Country and a big part of this boards membership is made up of the "little guys" programs and HS kids that are not D1 caliber.

Most kids are not D1 quality and with that thought the recruiting tactics change, and I think that message has to be brought forward. IMHO

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
FWIW,
How does a top D1 program in South Carolina find players that come from California, Florida, Washington State, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maine, WISCONSIN?

Who would be more likely to get the credit, the HS coach, the scout watching out for him to supply information, attending showcases, tournies or the college recruiter doing his job?

It may come as a surprise to you but most HS players do not go and play for the top D1 programs matter a fact most stay close to home and go to the smaller programs. This is where many on this site are seeking answers about, not going to elite schools.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
FWIW,
How does a top D1 program in South Carolina find players that come from California, Florida, Washington State, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Maine, WISCONSIN?

Who would be more likely to get the credit, the HS coach, the scout watching out for him to supply information, attending showcases, tournies or the college recruiter doing his job?

It may come as a surprise to you but most HS players do not go and play for the top D1 programs matter a fact most stay close to home and go to the smaller programs. This is where many on this site are seeking answers about, not going to elite schools.

I was using that as an example, there are many fine programs that find players the same way.

It may come as a big surprise that over the past few years more and more of our HSBBWsters sons are attending more and more top bb programs and being recruited as well. Last week I had two pm's from parents, one signing at a top D1 and another being rectruited seriously by top programs. No where near where they live to the schools. How does that happen?

I attribute that to the advice given here, and the popularity of showcases, attending top camp programs and woodbat tournies. Not because of their HS coaches or high school program.

Look I am not sure what your point is here, but if you polled most of the websters here, they would most likely say their son's HS coach was very good at filling out the necessary forms but had little to do with the actual process. They most likely took the task into their own hands rather than relying on HS baseball.

Recruits to the top programs are the exceptions to the rule, IMO the vast majority do not go that direction. Or maybe this message board has changed direction and only offers advice to those going D1.

I'll just shut up now since you have your finger on the pulse of the entire board and know the direction of baseball recruiting

Can I just chime in here for a moment?

As a hs parent, reading the HSBBW, I am looking for the resources and advice to help my son reach his potential. That may be HS V, JUCO, NAIA....he wants to be a scholarshipped D1 player -- like alot of other 14 year olds! As we take it all one step at a time, I am frequently dismayed to see the D1/Pro emphasis on the board. Do any of the other levels matter to the "gurus" on here? Because I'm thinking, if my son were to be fortunate enough to play at a non-D1 school, God forbid maybe a JUCO, would I feel worthy enough to speak up on the HSBBW?

And yes, I know that the other, non-D1 schools are brought up on occasion. But clearly the bulk of discussions and exaples given are D1.

I think we need to recognize that for many who come here, the immediate, and realistic, concern is how a boy can excell at HIGH SCHOOL baseball.

Apologies for my off-topic post. (But no apologies to TRHit )

emerald


I think if you get by the nonsense you will see that most of this is about the normal player--I, for one, am a proponent of players going where they should be===most parents dont want to hear it because it is their dream not the sons--the son just wants to play baseball

greedy selfish parents BOOOOOOOOO!!!

quote:

Originally posted by emeraldvlly:
Can I just chime in here for a moment?

As a hS parent, reading the HSBBW, I am looking for the resources and advice to help my son reach his potential. That may be HS V, JUCO, NAIA....he wants to be a scholarshipped D1 player -- like alot of other 14 year olds! As we take it all one step at a time, I am frequently dismayed to see the D1/Pro emphasis on the board. Do any of the other levels matter to the "gurus" on here? Because I'm thinking, if my son were to be fortunate enough to play at a non-D1 school, God forbid maybe a JUCO, would I feel worthy enough to speak up on the HSBBW?

And yes, I know that the other, non-D1 schools are brought up on occasion. But clearly the bulk of discussions and exaples given are D1.

I think we need to recognize that for many who come here, the immediate, and realistic, concern is how a boy can excell at HIGH SCHOOL baseball.

Apologies for my off-topic post. (But no apologies to TRHit )

Good points.
For the record I have said on many ,many occassions and on many many posts the D1 experience is NOT for everyone. Actually many times I would love to say, no,no you don't want to do that and have in pm's, only when asked, after much going back and forth the parent gains knowledge and changes courses. I don't want to lumped in the group of the D1 rah rahs but I guess I am. Yup have on several occassions spoken up about son's experience, why not, it was a great one, but I would have done the same no matter where he went. As far as I know there are quite a few parents of players here who have attended, been signed, attend, been recruited. There are now lots of folks whose sons play in the same conference and many on their way. I have been scolded on occassion for speaking up about it, but if that by some chance helped a parent to help their player to visit, send a letter, or signed at that conference school, I consider that has been helpful. If you beleieve in the experience you talk about it, the good with the bad.

It is the people who come here looking for advice that bring up D1 expereince. How many times have others chimed in to give advice, look to other programs? On many occassions.

The pro situation comes into discussion every year and should be a consideration to all. That opportunity will exist for a lot of players, from the JUCO signee to the top D1 signee. I think that this is probably the biggest decision that a player will have to make if he gets that opportunity (turning pro after HS) even biggger than where he signs. More and more of the HSBBW players are getting drafted, out of HSm, out of college. There are two areas designated for those questions and discussion in going pro and about the draft. If you don't want t hear aobut it don't read it. I try hard to move some topics where they might better belong but not given that opportunity often. That's what some moderators do to help out.
The HSBBW purpose was designed to aid in the HS experience, ten years ago. Times have changed, recruiting has changed, pro baseball has changed, travel baseball has changed, communication has changed, scholarships have chnaged, rules have changed, clearinghouse requirements have changed, everything has changed.
There are lots of people who give here, lots of people who never post any topic of value but to argue others, lots of people who post stuff completely unrelated to baseball, jokes, recipes, where to find the best food in town, post videos and pics not always related to baseball, life experiences, lots of people who use the site for their own business marketing, you name it, etc. The HSBBW is now about a lot of things, not just HSBB.

I happen to agree with TR's last post.

TR,
Interesting view,

I think I tend to think a bit more conservatively than my son as far as the right fit. He's not real vocal about it but I think he wants to play at the highest level he possibly can, while I'd like to see him play where he's likely to be challenged but play by his sophmore season. As of today there's enough uncertainty left that he could fit best anywhere from a D3 to a strong D1 and especially as he's a young '09 it could be quite a while before we know where he fits best.

Most people aren't in a position to figure out what level their son is going to be able to play at until just before or after their son's senior season, but getting involved in the recruiting process needs to start well before then for most.