Pitch count.... who needs them?

And if he is wrong...???

mmm1531- I was the exact same way growing up. I could throw and throw and throw and I'd never get tired. Soreness was never an issue for me all throughout my days of pitching and I never worried about how many pitches I'd throw or how many days rest I'd get.

It was all going swimmingly until one day I heard a pop, and then I couldn't throw and throw and throw anymore. Soon after, I looked like this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gZX3...ouIY/s1600/photo.JPG

Hey, the ladies love a man with a scar.

JH
I have been following your road to recovery, I wish you nothing but the best. I really enjoy your writings keep up the good work.

I hope I didn't come across as a non believer in pitch counts. I have followed ASMI guidelines for my son and all of the kids who ever pitched for me, starting many years ago.

My best friends son who was quite a bit older than my son went through arm problems after being used and abused as a youth pitcher and I tried to do everything in my power to prevent anything like that from happening to my son or others.

I thought when I 1st heard at the ball park that the kid in the story threw 133 pitches that maybe someone was wrong about the count. After I read the paper and saw the coaches comments about throwing this kid again in a couple days. Coupled with he doesn't require a pitch count because the kid doesn't get tired and red flags go up for me.

I don't really have a problem if a coach and a kid need to throw that many pitches in a certain situation. The coach certainly knows his pitchers better than I do but 1st game of the year, a non section game on a cool night. If I was in the dugout it would not happen.

quote:

Originally posted by mmm1531:
I hope I didn't come across as a non believer in pitch counts. I have followed ASMI guidelines for my son and all of the kids who ever pitched for me, starting many years ago.

You did to me, and I’m glad you cleared that up.

quote:

… I don't really have a problem if a coach and a kid need to throw that many pitches in a certain situation. The coach certainly knows his pitchers better than I do but 1st game of the year, a non section game on a cool night. If I was in the dugout it would not happen.

Here’s the problem I have with that happening. Forget all the possible things that might factor into a decision to let a kid throw that many pitches. Now the only possible reason for doing it is to win, and in and of itself, winning isn’t a bad thing. But how is it even remotely possible that there’s not one other kid on the team who could take over in at least the last inning, and get 3 outs? I’m not talking about the starter’s equal, but rather a kid who could go pedal to the metal for one inning.

Every MLB team does that to some degree, except for the very best of the very best. But those are full grown adults getting paid one boatload of $$$$, who’ve had the absolute best training, have the absolute best medical help available, and have at least a portion of everyone on the team’s pocketbook riding on the performance.

No HS game has that kind of thing riding on it, let alone some game that has little if any postseason implications.

I really can't see any time that would be acceptable for a HS player to throw 133 pitches in any situation.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Hey, the ladies love a man with a scar.

Chicks do dig the longscar.

The same thing happened to my son senior year with new coach. 120+ pitches in game 1, non-district game. It was bad, ending up badly for the coach, losing his job for other reasons at the end of the season. He lost four more jobs in six seasons and is out of baseball. The last job he lost after spiking the Gatorade with creatine on opening day.

JH,
I was the exact same way, I never worried about catching and pitching in same day or back to back days and I never had arm pain until I tore my labrum.

When my son was about 16, he was the starting pitcher for his travel team's state championship game. The team they were playing were their big rivals.

Up only 1-0 after 5 or 6 of the 7 regulation innings, his coach surprised me by walking down the line to where I was standing. When he got to me he said, "Your son has reached the number of pitches we allow pitchers to throw; so, we're taking him out. Trust me, he's going to have bigger games to pitch than this one down the road; and we want him to have a healthy arm for them." I replied, "You're the coach" and thanked him.

For that and a lot of other reasons, that coach has become one of the most successful high school coaches in the state.

Prepster-- Coaches like that are incredible teachers as well as role models. He obviously cared about more than the W-L record.

People talk about not letting their son pitch over
a set # of pitches, but what do they do? Interrupt the game to tell coach to take him out? It has not happened to our son and I don't believe it will, but honestly not sure how to handle the situation. We are delighted that our son now has a HS as well as travel coach we respect and trust.

Only 1 time did we have to protect our son from a pitch count. They are required to play summer Legion ball with their HS the summer prior to entering HS. (9th grade) basically, JV Legion. In a meaningless Saturday game against one of the top HS's in the county our son pitched what I had counted to be 106 pitches in a complete game. We were under the impression summer ball was for dev't and to see all the kids play, so didn't quite understand. The first game though, and didn't want to stir things. Well, Monday afternoon came and I got a call from my husband. He had taken son to the field and found out they were starting him against probably the top program in the county. My husband called to make sure I was correct on the pitch count, like it would matter. Anyway, he told the coach our son couldn't start. The coach said he threw 55 pitches at the max Saturday and he was fine. Husband insisted they go to official scorebook. It is well kept and outside the coach's influence. Count was actually 107. That ended that. The varsity coach found out and moved our son to varsity Legion Ball to protect him. I don't think that was the answer because it didn't protect the other boys.
Fortunately for my son and husband the "drama" was before the M game started. Not that many people knew about it and it wasn't a spectacle. I can imagine the situation would be much worse in the middle of a game.

FWIW, we have a new coach this year and he's doing a great job handling his pitchers. He also hired a really good JV coach, and for the first time the JV is being used to develop players for varsity.

quote:

Originally posted by smalltownmom:

People talk about not letting their son pitch over
a set # of pitches, but what do they do? Interrupt the game to tell coach to take him out?

Which is exactly what I did in game 1 senior season. The coach promised a 75 pitch limit for the first three starts. I went down to the fence (at 100+ pitches) and asked the pitching coach to take him out after the end of the inning. I was immediately the bad guy, which wasn't important. I was scolded by my son after the game, screamed at by the coach on the phone, and so on. I didn't care. I don't have a ton of friends, but I'm not a doormat either.

War was declared. I called 04's college coach who called the HS coach and blasted him. Newspapers started writing about it. The only thing that was important was not abusing arms. 04 understood it was his arm, and he was responsible for it. He kept his pitch counts and limited himself the rest of the year, since the coach wouldn't.

A month later 04 took himself out of a game with 15 k's in 6 innings telling the coach "I've pitched enough." He was close enough to 100 pitches. That may sound unconventional and there are likely HS coaches throwing up reading this. We did what we had to do.

Sometimes young people need help understanding their worth.

And it doesn't always end in college- son's good friend from high school, now @ a D1 LHP threw 150 pitches in a game last week-end. Some estimated he threw upwards of 200-250 including warm up pitches. Yikes!! But you can't tell a college coach to take your son out- and at that level the player would not say no to his coach. Player appears to be fine.

You can't do in college what we did in HS, but you definately can in HS. There isn't the need to as there is in HS, based upon my limited experience. College starters pitch once a week, usually the same night. Not so much in HS. College coaches are more invested. hoping to have a pitcher for 4 seasons, perhaps over 5 years. HS coaches, not so much.

Boyd's World tracks college pitch counts. There was one at 160 a couple of weeks ago, but very few over 125. 04 had several complete college games his soph year, but never went over 110 pitches, very flukey.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
I could throw and throw and throw and I'd never get tired. Soreness was never an issue for me all throughout my days of pitching and I never worried about how many pitches I'd throw or how many days rest I'd get.

Josh: Just curious, during your high school varsity years and in college before your surgery, how much time did you take off in the winter?

My son has a so-called "rubber" arm, has never had soreness (except for typical post-pitching muscle soreness), and never ices. I'm beginning to think that his not pitching for a minimum of three months (Nov, Dec, and Jan) every winter is extremely important. Perhaps-all things being equal-living in the northeast is beneficial for pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by slotty:

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
I could throw and throw and throw and I'd never get tired. Soreness was never an issue for me all throughout my days of pitching and I never worried about how many pitches I'd throw or how many days rest I'd get.

Josh: Just curious, during your high school varsity years and in college before your surgery, I how much time did you take off in the winter?

My son has a so-called "rubber" arm, has never had soreness (except for typical post-pitching muscle soreness), and never ices. I'm beginning to think that his not pitching for a minimum of three months every winter is extremely important.

An inordinate amount of successful MLB pitchers come from cold-weather states. The most important part of MLB success is actually being physically able to play. All the talent in the world is useless if you can't play.

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
An inordinate amount of successful MLB pitchers come from cold-weather states. The most important part of MLB success is actually being physically able to play. All the talent in the world is useless if you can't play.

A coach once repeated a statistic that he heard at the ABCA conference. I do not recall the exact numbers but the message was that many/most ML pitchers started pitching when they were 15 or 16 years old.

There is some good stuff on here. I don't doubt that there would be an inordinate amount of successful MLB pitchers from the north. Had we to do it over again, I believe we would have insisted on a season break each year, but this is the sport he loves. Knock on wood, things are good and no serious injuries thus far, but future stuff is always a concern. Ous son is still young. Every pitch counts in the long run, and many weren't too important.

So the question is, what do you consider to be the pitch cap in the high school season? post season? (With this in mind-- pitcher is doing well, not struggling, and no big pitch count innings. For example, perhaps a strikeout pitcher, lots of foul balls)

ASMI has a set of recommended pitch counts, weekly and yearly limits, rest guidelines, by age, etc. I believe they are the most widely recognized authority. Of course, I forwarded this to my son's HS coach who dismissed it immediately. We moved to Plan B, described above.

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/position_statement.htm

quote:

Originally posted by Texas1836:

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
An inordinate amount of successful MLB pitchers come from cold-weather states. The most important part of MLB success is actually being physically able to play. All the talent in the world is useless if you can't play.

A coach once repeated a statistic that he heard at the ABCA conference. I do not recall the exact numbers but the message was that many/most ML pitchers started pitching when they were 15 or 16 years old.

Many started pitching later than that, being converted position players.

quote:

Originally posted by slotty:

quote:
Originally posted by J H:
I could throw and throw and throw and I'd never get tired. Soreness was never an issue for me all throughout my days of pitching and I never worried about how many pitches I'd throw or how many days rest I'd get.

Josh: Just curious, during your high school varsity years and in college before your surgery, how much time did you take off in the winter?

My son has a so-called "rubber" arm, has never had soreness (except for typical post-pitching muscle soreness), and never ices. I'm beginning to think that his not pitching for a minimum of three months (Nov, Dec, and Jan) every winter is extremely important. Perhaps-all things being equal-living in the northeast is beneficial for pitchers.

My high school varsity years were very sporadic in terms of a consistent program because my high school coach pretty much didn't provide me with one. I did, however, play basketball in the winters which effectively provided me with the time off that was required for my arm. I played in the Jupiter tournament in late October and didn't start throwing off a mound again until February. I didn't have much of a long toss program over the winters, although I wish I had, but I suppose no one is perfect.

In college my coaches implemented a fairly specific offseason training program that included 4-week lifting phases (a strength phase, an endurance phase, etc.). During this time we'd also include a gradually progressed throwing program, which I felt adequately prepared us for opening day. We'd take the months of November and half of December off entirely from throwing, and begin our program in late December...getting off a mound once the second semester started in January.

quote:

My son has a so-called "rubber" arm, has never had soreness (except for typical post-pitching muscle soreness), and never ices. I'm beginning to think that his not pitching for a minimum of three months (Nov, Dec, and Jan) every winter is extremely important. Perhaps-all things being equal-living in the northeast is beneficial for pitchers.

Slotty,

That sounds exactly like my son before entering professional baseball. Then later came TJ surgery, shoulder surgery, and other shoulder issues. Chances are, sooner or later, if a pitcher pitches long enough, he is going to suffer an arm injury. Those that don't are rare. Sometimes these injuries are caused by accumulation, sometimes they are caused by one specific outing. Sometimes the injuries are a result of poor mechanics. Most young pitchers and sometimes their parents think there is this rubber arm right up until the time the arm is injured.

QUOTE]
A coach once repeated a statistic that he heard at the ABCA conference. I do not recall the exact numbers but the message was that many/most ML pitchers started pitching when they were 15 or 16 years old.[/QUOTE]


Many started pitching later than that, being converted position players.[/QUOTE]

Anecdotal, our FedEx man came by a bit ago. He pitched in the ML for two seasons and spent a good bit of time in AAA. I asked him when he started pitching. Said he was a center fielder because of his arm and started pitching at age 18.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Most young pitchers and sometimes their parents think there is this rubber arm right up until the time the arm is injured.

Without a doubt, PG. That's why I used the "so-called" qualifier and put "rubber" in quotation marks.

I know that as long as he trains properly, gets good advice regarding his mechanics and pays attention to it, doesn't pile on the innings, gets proper rest between starts, and shuts it down for a while during the off-season, the rest is pretty much out of his hands.

The second any coach or parent tells of kid with a rubber arm, mark that kid for future surgery. That is their rationalization to abuse that arm and ignore all the relevant data about pitch limits.

It was common for my sons college coach to throw his starters 120+ and sometimes into the high 140's. When my son was a freshman, their incoming class had 3 potential MLB draftee's as pitchers. Every one of them became injured and undrafted. My son went through labrum surgery after his freshman year and will undergo TJ this year, a year after graduating (injury sustained mid junior year).

Anyone that takes pitch counts lightly, is lying to themselves.

Chip

I actually do have a small problem with pitch counts. I understand the recommendations made by ASMI. I respect Doc andrews greatly as a top Surgeon.

I do believe in pitch counts, but not the same pitch count for each individual.

If someone said it dangerous to lift 150 lbs more than 10 times would you believe that? Surely you would if you couldn't lift 150 lbs one time. But if you were a very strong 275 lber you could easily lift that and would probably need to lift it more than 10 times to gain even more strength.

I'm not trying to compare weight lifting to throwing a baseball. Just trying to say that each individual is different. It takes work to master anything. Some break down after 50 pitches, some after 100 pitches. You work to get better, and you have to watch out for reaching that point where you have overdone it and it has reached the danger area. However, that point is different from one pitcher to the next. There are pitchers who have blown their arm in spite of the fact they threw a lot less than some other healthy pitchers.

Truth is... There are a lot of TJ surgeries to pitchers who have been on pitch counts. Perhaps the pitch count they were on was the wrong pitch count for them!

PG,

You’re making the same mistake so many others make about this. No one, not Dr. Andrews or anyone else has ever said the upper limits suggested are equally protective for every pitcher, and anyone who says they’ve said that needs to show that quote to me.

The limits are only stopgap things to try to mitigate what the true problem is. Those pitchers thought to be so much more prepared and so much “better”, from getting overused/abused to put up an almighty win.

The worry isn’t about the kid who seldom gets to pitch, because the chances he’ll ever be allowed to throw pitch numbers way over any limits are next to nothing. The worry is for the kid who’s getting shoved out there every chance the coach gets, is sought after by other teams to shore up their pitching for tournaments and such, and who’s dad or himself won’t tell the coach he’s been throwing in another venue.

And that’s the main reason there are pitchers having a lot of TJ surgeries who are on pitch counts! If pitchers could only play on one team, or it were mandatory to turn in every pitching appearance to some national database so his “REAL” workload could easily be found out, don’t you think things would be just a little different?

Nothing against PG, but I’ve seen kids throw a bunch of pitches for their team one day, go to a showcase the next day and throw again because they’d already planned the trip, then come back and 2 days later get sent back out to throw again for his team. His coach thinks he’s had 3 full days of rest, and he’s not saying anything different. For sure that’s not the fault of the people putting on the showcase, but rather the fault of the parent 1st and the child second, but that’s what goes on!

My point is, at least with some kind of limits, there’s a minimum of protection. Of course its not enough protection for someone who finds ways around them, but it does help those who don’t try to get around them.

quote:

There are a lot of TJ surgeries to pitchers who have been on pitch counts.

What???? How can this be?

One of the issues at my sons college, was that there is very little time allotted to pre season bullpens. The net result, was that the coaches would try and throw multiple simulated innings, sometimes with just a couple of minutes rest between innings. The net result would be a modest pitch count, but virtually no rest between.

Recovery is also a key component in injury prevention.

PGStaff,
How do you determine an individual pitch count then, if not by the statistics of probability as set forth by the best minds in medicine today?

Well if I decide my pitchers have a max pitch count of 75 and a pitcher goes out and blows out his elbow on pitch 74, then I'm safe right? If it had happened on pitch 76, then I'd be in trouble...


If we're going to make such a fuss about pitch counts, then count every single pitch. In the bullpen before the game, before each inning, and game pitches. They should all count.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Well if I decide my pitchers have a max pitch count of 75 and a pitcher goes out and blows out his elbow on pitch 74, then I'm safe right? If it had happened on pitch 76, then I'd be in trouble...


If we're going to make such a fuss about pitch counts, then count every single pitch. In the bullpen before the game, before each inning, and game pitches. They should all count.

Seems like you're trying to pick a fight with a statement like that, doesn't it?

Reasonable people see the difference between a 100 pitch count and throwing 108. They also see the difference when the pitch count was supposed to be 100 and winds up at 138. Reasonable people also understand the differences between customary and excessive. There would tend to be more understanding if 138 were the exception, rather than 138 being the rule.

All we can do is make our best judgement with the best data available to us at that given point in time. Finding exceptions or issues doesn't make the data invalid, only imperfect.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
How do you determine an individual pitch count then, if not by the statistics of probability as set forth by the best minds in medicine today?

I have never seen the rationale for how they picked the nice round 100 number.

Please post a link if you know where ASMI, or anyone, studied the effect of various specific pitch count limits and determined that 100 - not 110, or 90, or 180 was best.

quote:

PG,

You’re making the same mistake so many others make about this. No one, not Dr. Andrews or anyone else has ever said the upper limits suggested are equally protective for every pitcher, and anyone who says they’ve said that needs to show that quote to me.

The limits are only stopgap things to try to mitigate what the true problem is. Those pitchers thought to be so much more prepared and so much “better”, from getting overused/abused to put up an almighty win.

The worry isn’t about the kid who seldom gets to pitch, because the chances he’ll ever be allowed to throw pitch numbers way over any limits are next to nothing. The worry is for the kid who’s getting shoved out there every chance the coach gets, is sought after by other teams to shore up their pitching for tournaments and such, and who’s dad or himself won’t tell the coach he’s been throwing in another venue.

And that’s the main reason there are pitchers having a lot of TJ surgeries who are on pitch counts! If pitchers could only play on one team, or it were mandatory to turn in every pitching appearance to some national database so his “REAL” workload could easily be found out, don’t you think things would be just a little different?

Nothing against PG, but I’ve seen kids throw a bunch of pitches for their team one day, go to a showcase the next day and throw again because they’d already planned the trip, then come back and 2 days later get sent back out to throw again for his team. His coach thinks he’s had 3 full days of rest, and he’s not saying anything different. For sure that’s not the fault of the people putting on the showcase, but rather the fault of the parent 1st and the child second, but that’s what goes on!

My point is, at least with some kind of limits, there’s a minimum of protection. Of course its not enough protection for someone who finds ways around them, but it does help those who don’t try to get around them.

First of all here is what I posted and I don't feel there were any mistakes.

quote:

I actually do have a small problem with pitch counts. I understand the recommendations made by ASMI. I respect Doc andrews greatly as a top Surgeon.

I do believe in pitch counts, but not the same pitch count for each individual.

If someone said it dangerous to lift 150 lbs more than 10 times would you believe that? Surely you would if you couldn't lift 150 lbs one time. But if you were a very strong 275 lber you could easily lift that and would probably need to lift it more than 10 times to gain even more strength.

I'm not trying to compare weight lifting to throwing a baseball. Just trying to say that each individual is different. It takes work to master anything. Some break down after 50 pitches, some after 100 pitches. You work to get better, and you have to watch out for reaching that point where you have overdone it and it has reached the danger area. However, that point is different from one pitcher to the next. There are pitchers who have blown their arm in spite of the fact they threw a lot less than some other healthy pitchers.

Truth is... There are a lot of TJ surgeries to pitchers who have been on pitch counts. Perhaps the pitch count they were on was the wrong pitch count for them!

Regarding the radar gun or showcases or playing for more than one team, here is what I think.

As a coach the radar gun was very helpful in finding out when a pitcher was losing velocity. This means the pitcher is getting tired. Throwing with a tired arm is dangerous. Young kids who are capable of throwing hard... THROW HARD! With or without a radar gun. You don't start throwing harder just because a radar gun is pointed at you.

I see many more pitchers than Doc Andrews (thousands more) He is perhaps the greatest sports surgeon of our time. The majority of the pitchers he sees are already injured. I have never, not once, seen him at a showcase or tournament. Still, I would definitely consider him an expert on arm injuries. He is definitely not an expert on showcases, tournaments, or even pitching. Anyone in the medical profession will recommend things with maximum safety in mind. That is what they are suppose to do... no one would recommend 200 pitch limits. Truth is the safest pitch count is "0" if you don't want to injure your arm. Problem is "0" pitches will not lead to being a successful pitcher. It takes work to be good at anything, including pitching. That ammount of work can be different depending on the individual. Akk Major League pitchers have pushed the envelope at some point.

Playing for more than one team or attending a showcase could become an issue withy pitchers if someone is a complete fool. If people want to be an idiot they are going to make mistakes. Coaches and players that don't trust and communicate might be a problem, but both have to understand there are limitations.

So to me the biggest problem is the players are competitive and young kids think they are invincable. Too many coaches are competitive and get wrapped up in the moment. Sometimes this combination leads to stupidity.

quote:

PGStaff,
How do you determine an individual pitch count then, if not by the statistics of probability as set forth by the best minds in medicine today?

CPLZ,

That is a great question. First of all I'm not againt ASMI recommendations as a general rule. Especially for very young pitchers. When people like Rick Peterson work with Doc Andrews that blend of pitching coach and doctor working together makes a lot of sense.

However like everything, each individual is different. Here is the way we handled pitch counts in college. Early season everyone would be on a very low pitch count. We never had a pitcher throw a complete games early in the season. No one threw over 50 pitches. We would then increase that to 75 pitches after it was obvious that a pitcher could throw 50 without mechanical breakdown and pitches 40 to 50 showed the same stuff, command, and velocity as pitches 1 thru 10.

Then it became an individual thing with a maximum 100-110 pitches. No one pitcher ever threw more than 110 pitches in a game. Some would never get to that limit. Minimum 4 days rest after throwing.

Relief pitchers were never on a strict pitch count unless they entered the game early. Those long relievers were also spot starters. Even our closer would get at least one day off if he went 20 or more pitches.

We had very few injuries. I really think the lack of injuries were mostly a result of conditioning. We instituted martial arts into off season workouts and I really would do that again if I were to coach.

Bottom line... We had guys who would be on 100-110 pitch counts, we had guys on 75 pitch counts, we had guys on 50 pitch counts. We had one guy (soft thrower) that didn't have a pitch count. We felt good about the guys who were on 100 and we felt the 75 pitch guys were in danger after 75 pitches. First sign of a problem required rest and medical advice. We wanted to win just as much as anyone else. We thought doing things this way was the best way to win. Injured pitchers don't win you many games. We didn't have many injuries and we won lots of games.

Lastly, I think even more important than pitch counts is sufficient recovery. If a pitcher is not recovered completely he shouldn't be on the mound. He is taking the mound with an arm that isn't ready. This usually pertains to time in between appearances, but rain delays and your team hitting in an extra long inning, can also create problems.

To be clear regarding the previous post. The pitch limits we used were not absolute strict counts. If a guy was on 75 pitch counts but he appears to be breaking down he might not last 75 pitches. If he was breezing at 75 he was allowed to finish that inning if he continued to breeze. Sometimes that would cause us to increase his future pitch counts.

Bottom line... Pitch counts were always used and considered very important. Velocity readings were also very important. When a pitcher all of a sudden loses a lot of velocity (5-6 mph or more) it's time to call it a day.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
To be clear regarding the previous post. The pitch limits we used were not absolute strict counts. If a guy was on 75 pitch counts but he appears to be breaking down he might not last 75 pitches. If he was breezing at 75 he was allowed to finish that inning if he continued to breeze. Sometimes that would cause us to increase his future pitch counts.

Bottom line... Pitch counts were always used and considered very important. Velocity readings were also very important. When a pitcher all of a sudden loses a lot of velocity (5-6 mph or more) it's time to call it a day.

Common sense once again applied.... if everyone would just use common sense and keep things simple....

If the kid was able to throw 133 pitches, then it really isn't a story. I don't see a big deal since neither the pitcher or coach has no reservations about it. For some pitchers, 50 is too many while others have rubber arms and can throw 130-140 with ease.

my son was over used in our legion program. but we didn't know then what we learned later.

it's much easier to learn here, then it is to make the trip to watch the DR. perform tj on your son.

call it what you will,over use, pitch count etc. hind sight is 20/20.

.

"hind sight is 20/20."

Kinda' hence the name 20dad!

"He's got foresight!"......"And hindsight too!"

.

quote:

Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:
Common sense once again applied.... if everyone would just use common sense and keep things simple....

The trouble with that is, common sense ain’t so common.

Actually though, the problem isn’t that there’s a lack of common sense, as much as it is that the numbers are so huge, there’s bound to be some percentage of jerks in the mix. Luckily, the vast majority of coaches don’t cause problems, and the vast majority of parents don’t allow their kids to be in situations that make things worse than they should be. But we aren’t talking about a few thousand or a few hundred thousand coaches and parents. We’re talking about millions, and there’s just no way to get them all to act in the best interests of all players. About the best that can be done, is to reach as many as possible with the education necessary, and hope they do the right thing with it.

quote:

The trouble with that is, common sense ain’t so common.

Yea, 50% of people have below-average intelligence.