How many pitches should a kid be expected to throw at this point in the season? JV / Varsity level
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
IMO --- Pitch counts will almost always depend on the kid, regardless of what point in the season. Your average HS pitcher is probably capped in the 60-80 range this early in the season. However, there are always exceptions. I don't think there is much difference in how a JV pitcher is handled VS a varsity pitcher -- at least not in regards to pitch count. The strength, experience, and health of a pitcher will likely determine pitch count, not what level he plays.
Good post Nuke... Now do what I say and hit the mascot...
No more than 225 this early in the year.
3. Fastball/Curveball/Change Up
What would the response be to 107, this time of year?
On a Saturday tournament game.
On a Saturday tournament game.
You would be hard pressed to find any MLB pitchers who throw over 100 pitches in an outing the first few weeks of the season. If it's not good for a professional pitcher who has just completed 6-8 weeks of spring training, I can't imagine it being a good thing for a 17 year old high school kid. But like I said earlier -- there are always exceptions and every kid is different.
It depends in part on where you are and how long you've been throwing already. In warmer climes, some kids started a while back. Here in VA, we're just getting started. Further north, they may not get going for a while yet.
But using VA as a guide, I wouldn't want to see anyone going over 60 pitches in a scrimmage just yet, and really, I would cap them at something closer to 35. By mid-March it could go to 60-80 range, and by early April you could start inching up.
I generally don't like to see HS guys going over 100 until you go slightly beyond, MAYBE, come playoff time. My observation has been that pushing them beyond 100 is counterproductive anyway because you will often see a drop off in effectiveness starting around 85 even for a guy in mid-season form. After 100, he is not going to suddenly rally and get his stuff back, he's more likely to go downhill rapidly.
But using VA as a guide, I wouldn't want to see anyone going over 60 pitches in a scrimmage just yet, and really, I would cap them at something closer to 35. By mid-March it could go to 60-80 range, and by early April you could start inching up.
I generally don't like to see HS guys going over 100 until you go slightly beyond, MAYBE, come playoff time. My observation has been that pushing them beyond 100 is counterproductive anyway because you will often see a drop off in effectiveness starting around 85 even for a guy in mid-season form. After 100, he is not going to suddenly rally and get his stuff back, he's more likely to go downhill rapidly.
Oh-oh, not the dreaded pitch count discussion.
Yes, but MLB doesn't know what its talking about. Besides who would you trust, multi-million-dollar medical research or your HS coach (who may have read that same research somewhere in cyberspace and chuckled).
All kidding aside, are warm-up pitches included in the pitch count? If not, why not? Don't the pitchers throw just as hard in warm-up as they do against a batter; or is he using only a percentage of his power? Here's my 2 cents - pitch to contact!
quote:Originally posted by Nuke:
If it's not good for a professional pitcher who has just completed 6-8 weeks of spring training, I can't imagine it being a good thing for a 17 year old high school kid.
Yes, but MLB doesn't know what its talking about. Besides who would you trust, multi-million-dollar medical research or your HS coach (who may have read that same research somewhere in cyberspace and chuckled).
All kidding aside, are warm-up pitches included in the pitch count? If not, why not? Don't the pitchers throw just as hard in warm-up as they do against a batter; or is he using only a percentage of his power? Here's my 2 cents - pitch to contact!
quote:Originally posted by Old School79:
What would the response to 107, this time of year?
On a Saturday tournament game.
Hopefully:
- The young man is in excellent shape.
- He has excellent mechanics...or a great knuckelball.
- His coach knows him very well and can tell if he's "OK" or not.
- He had a no-hitter going, or was locked in a close game and was extremely effective.
- He gets the proper rest time & recoup regimen.
- He has a great season!
Absent any one of those things, I'd have some concerns.
WAG!
Different coaches, at different schools, had two of our Summer players, throw in excess of 100 pitches this past weekend. 
I would not be happy if my son pitched over 100 in a high school game! Save that, if necessary, for summer ball when it matters! My son pitched 80 in pitches in a game this past weekend, and that was fine. His arm is in good shape, and he runs, ices, and advils after each outing. Then runs the next day!
quote:Originally posted by Old School79:
Different coaches, at different schools, had two of our Summer players, throw in excess of 100 pitches this past weekend.
quote:Originally posted by MustangMom:
Save that, if necessary, for summer ball when it matters!
Don't let summer coaches or anyone else for that fact fool you into thinking that high school ball doesn't matter. Sure, you can attend some events in the summer where there are hundreds of scouts. But when one of those scouts attends your sons high school game and witnesses a meltdown or even a great outing, that counts just as much as the summer ball event they attend. Exposure is exposure is exposure! Pitch in a big hs game, let's say a playoff game against a team that eventually wins state with a first rounder on the team, and that outing counts just as much as any summer ball game(good outing or bad).
But I agree, 100+ pitches in this past weekends cold weather and this early in the season would make me a little angry as a parent.
I am missing a KG commentary right about now.
quote:Originally posted by MustangMom:
I would not be happy if my son pitched over 100 in a high school game! Save that, if necessary, for summer ball when it matters!
This is why a lot of good HS coaches get worn out. Not that there are any good HS coaches anymore. All the good coaches work select ball obviously.
[/QUOTE] Not that there are any good HS coaches anymore. All the good coaches work select ball obviously.[/QUOTE]
Ironhorse...I'll assume your comment was made tongue in cheek and that you don't really think all "good" coaches are in the select ranks. There are plenty of good if not great HS coaches out there...and I'd argue that most really care about the kids and are teaching life lessons along the way in addition to baseball. In today's busy world, many of the high school coaches out there spend more time with the kids than do their parents.
Ironhorse...I'll assume your comment was made tongue in cheek and that you don't really think all "good" coaches are in the select ranks. There are plenty of good if not great HS coaches out there...and I'd argue that most really care about the kids and are teaching life lessons along the way in addition to baseball. In today's busy world, many of the high school coaches out there spend more time with the kids than do their parents.
quote:I would not be happy if my son pitched over 100 in a high school game! Save that, if necessary, for summer ball when it matters!
This is what is wrong with youth sports today... think about how pathetic this person is...
she is a mother of a high school student and she takes time out of her day to log on here to make comments about how high school ball is useless relative to summer ball...
hopefully she is not teaching her son those same values....
summer select vs. high school baseball is almost apples and oranges...
i would bet you a million dollars "mustang"mom.. that if your son's high school team was in about the third round of playoffs in high school ball yet his summer team was starting up and playing in a showcase tournament (i know that wldn't happen because of the time of year the h.s. playoffs take place)... but if so, I bet your son would choose to be with his high school team. Think? Better yet if your son's high school team made it to Austin, but yet his select team was headed to "Perfect Game" in East Cobb, he would still choose high school over select...
yes select teams are better, they are pulling kids from all over - duh.
doesn't mean that high school isn't more important or just as...
think you'd see a dog-pile after a select tournament/showcase or after winning regionals to get to State?
Probably the only dog pile in all of select only happens in Farmington...
But, JMHO
and no i don't coach high school baseball, and no i am not a parent of a kid who even plays high school baseball...
quote:
summer select vs. high school baseball is almost apples and oranges...
Yes.
Homework assignment for you parents. Go ask your kids that have played a couple of seasons on varsity which season is more intense, more fun, and really fires them up. 9 out of 10 will say high school ball.
doubleday I know 6-5a coaches is teaching life lessons
quote:Originally posted by dieselpusher:
doubleday I know 6-5a coaches is teaching life lessons
Alright EVERYONE and especially Diablo con Huevos, I was not meaning to compare HS to Summer ball in a disrespectful way. Sorry it came across that way! There is no comparison, both are great! My son loves high school ball, and summer ball, and gains good knowlede from each.
I am not pathetic taking time out of my day to post here, you all are posting too!!! Does that make you pathetic? NO! Yes, I am a mother of a hs student and proud of that!! I NEVER said hs ball was useless, you are putting words in my mouth, Diablo. That is not fair! My son, my husband and I all have a great respect and love for the game- high school and summer ball!! My son's hs coach is great, and is a wonderful influence on my son!! We totally respect the time and interest his coach puts in!
All I intended to express was that in our experience and others that we know, there seem to be more scouts looking in the summer than at high school games, except for deep into playoffs, you can't dispute that! That is what I meant by "when it counts". And, as for my values, Diablo, we have always taught our son that it is important to play hard no matter where or who you are playing or whether it is practice, scrimmage, game or district game, and that is exactly what he does!! Integrity is important!
I am not pathetic taking time out of my day to post here, you all are posting too!!! Does that make you pathetic? NO! Yes, I am a mother of a hs student and proud of that!! I NEVER said hs ball was useless, you are putting words in my mouth, Diablo. That is not fair! My son, my husband and I all have a great respect and love for the game- high school and summer ball!! My son's hs coach is great, and is a wonderful influence on my son!! We totally respect the time and interest his coach puts in!
All I intended to express was that in our experience and others that we know, there seem to be more scouts looking in the summer than at high school games, except for deep into playoffs, you can't dispute that! That is what I meant by "when it counts". And, as for my values, Diablo, we have always taught our son that it is important to play hard no matter where or who you are playing or whether it is practice, scrimmage, game or district game, and that is exactly what he does!! Integrity is important!
quote:Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:quote:I would not be happy if my son pitched over 100 in a high school game! Save that, if necessary, for summer ball when it matters!
This is what is wrong with youth sports today... think about how pathetic this person is...
she is a mother of a high school student and she takes time out of her day to log on here to make comments about how high school ball is useless relative to summer ball...
hopefully she is not teaching her son those same values....
summer select vs. high school baseball is almost apples and oranges...
i would bet you a million dollars "mustang"mom.. that if your son's high school team was in about the third round of playoffs in high school ball yet his summer team was starting up and playing in a showcase tournament (i know that wldn't happen because of the time of year the h.s. playoffs take place)... but if so, I bet your son would choose to be with his high school team. Think? Better yet if your son's high school team made it to Austin, but yet his select team was headed to "Perfect Game" in East Cobb, he would still choose high school over select...
yes select teams are better, they are pulling kids from all over - duh.
doesn't mean that high school isn't more important or just as...
think you'd see a dog-pile after a select tournament/showcase or after winning regionals to get to State?
Probably the only dog pile in all of select only happens in Farmington...
But, JMHO
and no i don't coach high school baseball, and no i am not a parent of a kid who even plays high school baseball...
quote:All I intended to express was that in our experience and others that we know, there seem to be more scouts looking in the summer ...That is what I meant by "when it counts".
Well at least you openly acknowledge that you want your son to be in it only for himself. Hopefully he feels it "counts" when he lines up alongside his HS teammates as well. Even if there may not be as many scouts in the stands and as good of a shot at individual acclaim.
I miss baseball being a team sport. Thanks, summer ball.
quote:Save that, if necessary, for summer ball when it matters!
So mom, when something "matters" is it useful or useless... so if it "doesn't matter" would it be useful or useless?
six of one/half-dozen of another...
and of course there are more scouts at summer select... they pull from a bigger pond... if select teams had to take only kids out of their neighborhood area and high schools could pull from anywhere... <Cough, (Grand Prairie HS 1994) cough cough>
then scouts would covet high school games more.....backpedal all you want, no biggie....
I never knew the whole team gets drafted/goes to college. who we kidding. if you are good then show it off and some might follow.
who we kidding. if you are good then show it off and some might follow.
Ok... as usual I can't keep my mouth shut so here goes...
Show of hands... All those parents who support baseball because its a team sport.
Show of hands... All those parents who support baseball because they think their kid is really good and should get a baseball scholarship.
Wanna take a guess at the majority on this one...
Show of hands... All those parents who support baseball because its a team sport.
Show of hands... All those parents who support baseball because they think their kid is really good and should get a baseball scholarship.
Wanna take a guess at the majority on this one...
Maverick - parents support baseball because their kid plays...period. No matter if their son is college bound or not. Ball games played around the metroplex is attended only by parents or someone close to a player. In all the years that my sons have played, I have never met someone at a game who just happens to be a fan of team sports. Recruiters excluded.
I support baseball because my son loves to play. He's far from getting any type of scholarship, but it doesn't matter to me, as long as he enjoys the game. It's up to him to care about his teammates, not me. However, if he asks me to support a teammate in any capacity, I'm more than sure I'd do it.
I support baseball because my son loves to play. He's far from getting any type of scholarship, but it doesn't matter to me, as long as he enjoys the game. It's up to him to care about his teammates, not me. However, if he asks me to support a teammate in any capacity, I'm more than sure I'd do it.
I usually stay out of discussions like this because for business purposes it's not a good idea to tick anyone off. But this is actually quite an interesting conversation... Mustang Mom said something that I'm sure she wishes she hadn't said, and it gets right to the heart of a lot of complaints that I hear from coaches.
"The guys are selfish. They have no idea how to put the team's needs first." or
"How about my parents - could you do one of your mental skills training talks for them?"
I think many student-athletes would like to be true team players and the beauty of it is that if they do this, they will be rewarded many times over. Alas, society tends to lead them another direction
I think MMom is also very brave for jumping back into the fray with her response. I do completely agree with Diablo's points (other than MMom is pathetic - I'm quite sure she's not - no I don't know her). My main problem with her post is that baseball for her now seems to be about baseball later (getting recruited). Enjoy HS ball now and college/pro ball later if that's in the cards.
It's fine for parents to care about their son most, but it would be useful for them to teach and emphasize a different priority -- an idea that Mustang Mom seems to believe in even if she actually communicated the opposite in her first post. The only thing that matters is doing your job right now to the best of your ability. Practice. Weight room. Classroom. 7th inning of a tie game. Spring. Summer. October in the bigs if you happen to be so fortunate. Doesn't matter.
I hope in the future that all parents, myself included, will monitor their own communications with their children about what's important. Try to put the ego aside and deal with life's challenges head-on. Eliminate excuses and resolve to give your best effort one step at a time and accept whatever happens. (This defines winning the mental game of life or baseball, IMO.) Keep pushing to figure out the best way and have the discipline to do what you know is right. DON'T EXPECT FOR LIFE TO BE FAIR. If you think life should be fair, you're probably certifiably crazy by now. Please don't pass that on to your child. When he's 5, sure. When he's 15...NO! Good things WILL happen, although it may take a while and may even take a different form than expected.
Okay, I'll stop...
And yes, 100+ is probably too many this early.
-Aaron
"The guys are selfish. They have no idea how to put the team's needs first." or
"How about my parents - could you do one of your mental skills training talks for them?"
I think many student-athletes would like to be true team players and the beauty of it is that if they do this, they will be rewarded many times over. Alas, society tends to lead them another direction
I think MMom is also very brave for jumping back into the fray with her response. I do completely agree with Diablo's points (other than MMom is pathetic - I'm quite sure she's not - no I don't know her). My main problem with her post is that baseball for her now seems to be about baseball later (getting recruited). Enjoy HS ball now and college/pro ball later if that's in the cards.
It's fine for parents to care about their son most, but it would be useful for them to teach and emphasize a different priority -- an idea that Mustang Mom seems to believe in even if she actually communicated the opposite in her first post. The only thing that matters is doing your job right now to the best of your ability. Practice. Weight room. Classroom. 7th inning of a tie game. Spring. Summer. October in the bigs if you happen to be so fortunate. Doesn't matter.
I hope in the future that all parents, myself included, will monitor their own communications with their children about what's important. Try to put the ego aside and deal with life's challenges head-on. Eliminate excuses and resolve to give your best effort one step at a time and accept whatever happens. (This defines winning the mental game of life or baseball, IMO.) Keep pushing to figure out the best way and have the discipline to do what you know is right. DON'T EXPECT FOR LIFE TO BE FAIR. If you think life should be fair, you're probably certifiably crazy by now. Please don't pass that on to your child. When he's 5, sure. When he's 15...NO! Good things WILL happen, although it may take a while and may even take a different form than expected.
Okay, I'll stop...
And yes, 100+ is probably too many this early.
-Aaron
quote:My main problem with her post is that baseball for her now seems to be about baseball later (getting recruited). Enjoy HS ball now and college/pro ball later if that's in the cards.
good stuff Ctraub...
In my personal belief the two biggest things students/PARENTS really don't get is that:
One, your kid (or you) really aren't as good as you think you are (relative to best high school has to offer in talent) and two, EVEN IF you end up playing in college, half of college freshman, in my personal experience, are done with baseball by the end of sophomore year....
Over the last 20+ years, I have worked with/coached over 400 players that went on to play collegiate baseball... and like clock-work, half are done by 2nd year in... whether the game passed them by (didn't make proper adjustments) academics fell off, didn't care to play anymore, etc, etc, etc... whatever the reason, they were done... had to start focusing on the real world issues from that point on..
Bottom line: if you enjoy thegame, play the game the right way... hustle, do your best with your ability, and have fun... if you're in it for "secondary" reasons you won't enjoy it nearly enough..... and soon it will all be gone and you'll be looking back saying "man, I wish...."
JMHO
DCH... I agree whole hardedly with your last comment. If your not having fun, go find something else to do...
quote:Probably the only dog pile in all of select only happens in Farmington...
We actually see them a lot! Here are a few from WWBA Championships...
PG,
Great pics...
Didn't get any dog pile pics but I did take this one at Farmington?
Great pics...
Didn't get any dog pile pics but I did take this one at Farmington?
Not to downplay what Perfectgame does as they are really one of the good guys when it comes to baseball but comparing Farmington to any Perfectgame dogpile is like comparing gold to dirt.
Nothing beats Farmington for amateur baseball. Just look at the difference in pictures in relation to fans and environment. Better yet take the time to go there. It is worth the trip whether your kid is playing or not.
I know a little off topic but since mentioned I have to chime in.
Nothing beats Farmington for amateur baseball. Just look at the difference in pictures in relation to fans and environment. Better yet take the time to go there. It is worth the trip whether your kid is playing or not.
I know a little off topic but since mentioned I have to chime in.
quote:Not to downplay what Perfectgame does as they are really one of the good guys when it comes to baseball but comparing Farmington to any Perfectgame dogpile is like comparing gold to dirt.
Sorry, I didn't mean to change the subject.
The pictures were simply a response to a previous post. I didn’t comment at all on the Connie Mack World Series. Wasn’t comparing anything, and didn’t even mention Farmington. But there are many of the very best teams in the country who play WWBA and I’m fairly sure that they would say “dirt” just doesn’t seem to be the right word.
Just to be clear, I've gone on record many times saying that the Connie Mack World Series is the best amateur tournament of all outside of the College World Series. This is primarily due to the fans and ceremonies that surround the games in Farmington. The fan support from those in New Mexico is absolutely amazing. Most of the teams are among the best, all though some teams are not as competitive. I was especially glad to see them finally go to the wood bats.
I really don’t like the Gold to "Dirt” comparison. Though I do understand that these are completely different events and that Farmington deserves everything positive mentioned. It is the "Gold" standard.
First of all, the fans do fill the stadium in Farmington and it is an absolutely great event with some of the best teams in the country. I agree that it should be considered “GOLD”. I have no problem with that.
However, the number of scouts and college coaches that attend the WWBA tournaments is much, much, larger. Would anyone really care to argue that? Should THAT be considered “DIRT”?
Not to start an argument, but based on the MLB Draft and College Commitments, most all of the very best teams in the country, with the most talent the past few years, do play in the WWBA. This can easily be proven based on results. Of course, there are some who might say that is not what is important.
The pictures, if nothing else, should show that teams do care about winning at other events. The desire to win, enjoyment, and sense of accomplishment, is not limited to any single event.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Not to start an argument,
I agree so I will leave your post alone this time Jerry.
Solid Gold regards,
Jerry,
Gold to dirt was probably a bad choice of words. Probably should have used apples to oranges or something else. Also nothing was intendended to demean any Perfectgame events.
What you guys do for amateur baseball is great and is appreciated.
Gold to dirt was probably a bad choice of words. Probably should have used apples to oranges or something else. Also nothing was intendended to demean any Perfectgame events.
What you guys do for amateur baseball is great and is appreciated.
Boy this thread has gone 180, I thought it started with a question of how many pitches boys should be throwing this early in the season and now it is where the best place to watch/experience a baseball game. This is fantastic............I love keeping people guessing. Makes me smile.
Iluvgoodbaseball,
Thanks for the compliment. It really was the word “dirt” that bothered me somewhat. Though I certainly have nothing against dirt! Maybe Farmington as “gold” and PG WWBA as silver or bronze would have been a bit easier to take. Just seems like there could have been several choices somewhere between Gold and Dirt!
That’s enough from me about that, so to get back to the original topic and slide out of here…
IMO, It depends on what condition the individual is in. However, caution should always be the main objective. Too little is safer than too much.
We have a rule for all pitchers in our spring league (50 pitches) at 50 pitches the pitcher comes out, no matter where the game happens to be at the time. This goes for the guys who are ready to go that far. Some we pitch for an inning during the first few weeks. Pitchers who have had a long inning are done even if they haven’t reached 50 total pitches. In other words, we don’t take any chances on hurting arms early in the season due to overdoing things. Same goes for later in the season except the pitch counts are increased.
At the high school level, I could see where things could be a bit different depending on each pitcher and/or program. Pitchers are not all equal in ability or conditioning.
Note: At some point there has to be some risk involved. In order to find your potential you, at some point, need to push the limits. I doubt many ever reach their potential by always playing it safe.
Thanks for the compliment. It really was the word “dirt” that bothered me somewhat. Though I certainly have nothing against dirt! Maybe Farmington as “gold” and PG WWBA as silver or bronze would have been a bit easier to take. Just seems like there could have been several choices somewhere between Gold and Dirt!
That’s enough from me about that, so to get back to the original topic and slide out of here…
quote:How many pitches should a kid be expected to throw at this point in the season?
IMO, It depends on what condition the individual is in. However, caution should always be the main objective. Too little is safer than too much.
We have a rule for all pitchers in our spring league (50 pitches) at 50 pitches the pitcher comes out, no matter where the game happens to be at the time. This goes for the guys who are ready to go that far. Some we pitch for an inning during the first few weeks. Pitchers who have had a long inning are done even if they haven’t reached 50 total pitches. In other words, we don’t take any chances on hurting arms early in the season due to overdoing things. Same goes for later in the season except the pitch counts are increased.
At the high school level, I could see where things could be a bit different depending on each pitcher and/or program. Pitchers are not all equal in ability or conditioning.
Note: At some point there has to be some risk involved. In order to find your potential you, at some point, need to push the limits. I doubt many ever reach their potential by always playing it safe.
quote:Note: At some point there has to be some risk involved. In order to find your potential you, at some point, need to push the limits. I doubt many ever reach their potential by always playing it safe.
However, even in Texas. You would agree that stretching out Sophomores past 100 pitches, in late February, in 40-50 degree weather is unacceptable?
Coach T and Diablo, good stuff. 