just got home from watching Hebron and Coppell. Hebron pitcher threw 132 pitches. Is that too many for a high school game? Just curious if anyone had an opinion.
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We all have opinions.......
Depends on the kid, his conditioning, and whether or not he ever intends on using his pitching arm for anything useful after his baseball career is over.
Depends on the kid, his conditioning, and whether or not he ever intends on using his pitching arm for anything useful after his baseball career is over.
Call me crazy and my arm hurt after T-Ball practice...but,,,YES it is 20 + to much. If Meat gets to 110 I hope he has the balls enough / and intelligence enough to tell his coach "his arm hurts" and come out of the game.
And it's not just the 20 pitches, it is the extra inning with the warm-up pitches and the throw overs to first to hold the runners.
I use to think that if a pitch built up arm strength ... long toss and such that he should be able to handle the work but the more I see these boys throw the more I have come around to a 100 / 110 pitch count and only then on a warm night.
And it's not just the 20 pitches, it is the extra inning with the warm-up pitches and the throw overs to first to hold the runners.
I use to think that if a pitch built up arm strength ... long toss and such that he should be able to handle the work but the more I see these boys throw the more I have come around to a 100 / 110 pitch count and only then on a warm night.
Heard Pearce pitcher threw 143 pitches in 7 innings? 
Pitch counts should be one factor in deciding when a kid should come out. There are several others.
FWIW, if I had a kid who felt fine on the mound puss out on me because he heard he was at 110 pitches and his dad told him that was too many I would throw up in my mouth.
FWIW, if I had a kid who felt fine on the mound puss out on me because he heard he was at 110 pitches and his dad told him that was too many I would throw up in my mouth.
I played baseball at Sam Houston State years ago. While I wasn't a pitcher, our coach was a firm believer that it wasn't the sheer number of pitches, but the type of pitches (curves, sliders, etc...) Then again, we weren't a very good team. lol
Many pro teams cut their pitchers off well before that. Why would anyone make a practice of letting kids do so?
120, 130, 140? Too much.
120, 130, 140? Too much.
Heard Pearce pitcher threw 143 pitches in 7 innings?
WOW... WAY TO MUCH.... Does Pearce have anyone else that could have came in and Pitched???
WOW... WAY TO MUCH.... Does Pearce have anyone else that could have came in and Pitched???
It also has to do with the amount of 'stressful' pitches. Meaning runners in scoring position, tight ballgame, etc.
For a good pitcher, there is no difference in a pitch with runners on and a pitch with no runners on.
I agree with you Texan if you are saying that there shouldn't be that much difference in production from a good pitcher whether or not they are in the stretch or the windup. However, saying that there is no difference between stress on the arm with no runners on versus having runners on base is inaccurate. Stressful pitches can be classified in general as pitching with RISP.
Put a pitcher on the mound with no runners on all day and let him pitch. Then put a pitcher on the mound who is throwing with runners on base, especially in scoring position all day. Which one do you think will go longer?
Pitch counts today are becoming higher and higher in terms of what is the cutoff for high school kids. This is a scary topic! I don't feel that a 14 or 15 year old should ever throw above 65-70 pitches. The interior anatomy of the shoulder and arm is still rapidly developing, and having a kid put that much stress on his arm from overuse can really hinder proper development of those areas.
I feel a little different for 17 & 18 year olds that have established themselves as 'big game' pitchers through the course of their HS career. Still think that 100 should be the cutoff for these guys.
Put a pitcher on the mound with no runners on all day and let him pitch. Then put a pitcher on the mound who is throwing with runners on base, especially in scoring position all day. Which one do you think will go longer?
Pitch counts today are becoming higher and higher in terms of what is the cutoff for high school kids. This is a scary topic! I don't feel that a 14 or 15 year old should ever throw above 65-70 pitches. The interior anatomy of the shoulder and arm is still rapidly developing, and having a kid put that much stress on his arm from overuse can really hinder proper development of those areas.
I feel a little different for 17 & 18 year olds that have established themselves as 'big game' pitchers through the course of their HS career. Still think that 100 should be the cutoff for these guys.
If a pitcher experiences different physical "stress" (to the point that it is harder on his arm) depending upon whether or not runners are on, then he hasn't developed the mental toughness and focus that he needs. JMHO
Not saying that some pitchers aren't more stressed with runners on. We all know that some pitchers are affected. But not all are. Some thrive on pressure.
Not saying that some pitchers aren't more stressed with runners on. We all know that some pitchers are affected. But not all are. Some thrive on pressure.
quote:Originally posted by ironhorse:
Pitch counts should be one factor in deciding when a kid should come out. There are several others.
FWIW, if I had a kid who felt fine on the mound puss out on me because he heard he was at 110 pitches and his dad told him that was too many I would throw up in my mouth.
I once thought as you did but then I grew up.
Unfortunately to many people like you still exist in baseball to the point that young men get hurt and many never get to realize their potential or their dreams.
I believe in building arm strenght and finishing a situation on the mound. I would never tell my son to come out of a game or discuss it with a coach. My conversations are with the pitcher about the reality of his arm and that he has to realize one win today "for the team" might be the worst decision he makes on the mound "for the team" in the future.
Heck, I have encouraged my boy go finish, to go back out there and get the win way too often. I just hope I didn't let him do to much damage already at 16....because I use to think like you do.
I think the biggest pitch count abuse occurs at the JV level. It occurs on a frequent and regular basis at most schools.
great point Uncle Ethan. Heard of a freshman kid who has thrown a perfect game this year, the other night he threw 160+ pitches! 
In a 7 inning game if you have to throw 140 pitches it must be a high scoreing game. A slow game at that..oh and let not forget the over lifting in the wieght room because most of the kids are pumping iron and hurting and staining there muscle trying to get bigger and ready for Football. Thats where most kids start the arm problems.
quote:Originally posted by MeatsDad:
I once thought as you did but then I grew up.
Unfortunately to many people like you still exist in baseball to the point that young men get hurt and many never get to realize their potential or their dreams.
I just hope I didn't let him do to much damage already at 16....because I use to think like you do.
Whatever. Unfortunately people like you still exist that believe one indicator should determine what's right for a kid.
Listen closely...THERE IS NO HARD AND FAST NUMBER WHERE EVERY KID SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN. It's that simple. Sometimes a kid should be done at 60. Sometime another kid may need to be shut down at 100. Sometimes the same kid may need to be kept to 80.
110 pitches is a lot for a young arm. No doubt. For the record, I have had a kid throw over 110 pitches once in my career. It was a late round playoff game and he threw 123. At no point was his arm in jeopardy, but it was still something I wrestled with.
I don't like high pitch counts either. But if you're a coach, multiple factors go in to every decision on the baseball field.
quote:Originally posted by ironhorse:
110 pitches is a lot for a young arm. No doubt. For the record, I have had a kid throw over 110 pitches once in my career. It was a late round playoff game and he threw 123. At no point was his arm in jeopardy, but it was still something I wrestled with.
And how do you know it was not in jeopardy? Look at pro ball (minors to majors). How many clubs cut their adult pitchers off well before 123?
quote:Originally posted by ironhorse:
I don't like high pitch counts either. But if you're a coach, multiple factors go in to every decision on the baseball field.
This happens when coaches put their W-L record ahead of their concern for pitchers' arms. Some coaches do this. Others don't.
We played a team last week where the opposing pitcher threw 149 pitches. He cramped up during the 6th (?) inning to the point that the trainer came out and spent a good deal of time stretching him as he lay on the ground by the mound. Then he continued pitching.
North has a player that was a very dominating pitcher when he was younger. His freshman year, we had a football coach coaching baseball and he pitched this kid WAY more than he should have, calling curve balls every other pitch. Kid hasn't pitched since then. He had a pretty promising future on the mound in my opinion. It was an elbow problem that finished him.
High pitch counts are over rated to an extent.... Occasionally we have had pitchers get well over 100 pitches, and when this happened we put them on 7 days rest. IMO rest is way more important then number of pitches thrown... I have more experience with pitchers coming up lame throwing 50 pitches, and trying to relieve on two days rest then high pitch counts once every 7 days.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
And how do you know it was not in jeopardy? Look at pro ball (minors to majors). How many clubs cut their adult pitchers off well before 123?
Because he still pitches for me and I see him every day. His arm is in better shape than ever and he's getting some attention, so it looks like I didn't ruin his future. Whew!
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
This happens when coaches put their W-L record ahead of their concern for pitchers' arms. Some coaches do this. Others don't.
Nice ignorant point. Some coaches do that. You're right. Your award will arrive soon, Senor Obvious. News flash: Most coaches don't. While I know that's not a commonly held belief in the stands, it's true.
Listen to my singular point: Pitch counts are a tool, a piece of information. Think about it. Why is 110 too much, but maybe not 109 or 108? Or he should be done at 80 but not 79? Because they're round numbers? That's not rational. Multiple factors decide when a kid should be pulled. And no, W-L record isn't one of them among most of us.
Keep being cynical against the men who are coaching and caring for your son. It's very beneficial for hs baseball in general.
I think I'm going to apply for a moderator position for the sole purpose of limiting the insolent comments and demeaning sarcasm. There are enough words in the English language to get our points across without personal attacks.
I agree KC, but it's hard to be chippy every time the testosterone kicks in around here. 
You'd be surprised at the number of people that feel that there is no need for moderation....period. And while the behavior seems extreme at times, you'd be shocked at many of the other message boards. Having said that, I could use occasional help with this moderation thing --- let me know if you are serious with your....."threat". 
ironhorse, most regular posters have some degree of experience with a coach(s) that have abused their authority when it comes to pitch count. It is a subject that we discuss on a fairly regular basis -- with similar passion on either side of the argument. Please continue with respect to all -- there are only a few here that have earned the right to be called "idiotic".
You'd be surprised at the number of people that feel that there is no need for moderation....period. And while the behavior seems extreme at times, you'd be shocked at many of the other message boards. Having said that, I could use occasional help with this moderation thing --- let me know if you are serious with your....."threat". ironhorse, most regular posters have some degree of experience with a coach(s) that have abused their authority when it comes to pitch count. It is a subject that we discuss on a fairly regular basis -- with similar passion on either side of the argument. Please continue with respect to all -- there are only a few here that have earned the right to be called "idiotic".
ih, one can play Russian roulette & get away with it sometimes. Do you care to play?
There are some guidelines set by those who have put this to scientific study. You might want to acquaint yourself with them.
The line on pitch counts must been drawn somewhere. Else why even bother to look at them if they are to be ignored at whim? Or to be more accurate, to be ignored when the coach really wants to get that "W".
Would you leave a kid in to pitch 120+ in a blow out? Please answer that.
If you answer "no", please explain why not?
Yet you left a kid in to throw that many when the game was important to you.
My point is made.
Knowledgable folks explain that the chance of injury increases when the pitcher gets tired. No, it is not a certainty. But the odds do go up. And, like Russian roulette, you don't know when you will get away with it and when the boy will pay.
Not to mention cumulative damage that can occur.
Why take the risk?
How many pro pitchers go to the kind of pitch count that you had your pitcher throw? What percent of them? And those folks are paid to win. Don't you think if it was a good idea or low risk, that most of the pro pitchers (who are grown men with mature bodies and the best in training) would consistently be throwing those kind of numbers?
I judge each coach individually by their actions. There are many good coaches. Some of them are posters on this site. Yet there are some bad apples, just as there are everywhere in life - coaches draw no pass there. And there are some with good intentions, but under pressure to win they make some questionable decisions. And I do know that their ability to put food on the table for their family depends upon winning. The pressure can be great.
I stand by my statements. Feel free to disagree.
There are some guidelines set by those who have put this to scientific study. You might want to acquaint yourself with them.
The line on pitch counts must been drawn somewhere. Else why even bother to look at them if they are to be ignored at whim? Or to be more accurate, to be ignored when the coach really wants to get that "W".
Would you leave a kid in to pitch 120+ in a blow out? Please answer that.
If you answer "no", please explain why not?
Yet you left a kid in to throw that many when the game was important to you.
My point is made.
Knowledgable folks explain that the chance of injury increases when the pitcher gets tired. No, it is not a certainty. But the odds do go up. And, like Russian roulette, you don't know when you will get away with it and when the boy will pay.
Not to mention cumulative damage that can occur.
Why take the risk?
How many pro pitchers go to the kind of pitch count that you had your pitcher throw? What percent of them? And those folks are paid to win. Don't you think if it was a good idea or low risk, that most of the pro pitchers (who are grown men with mature bodies and the best in training) would consistently be throwing those kind of numbers?
I judge each coach individually by their actions. There are many good coaches. Some of them are posters on this site. Yet there are some bad apples, just as there are everywhere in life - coaches draw no pass there. And there are some with good intentions, but under pressure to win they make some questionable decisions. And I do know that their ability to put food on the table for their family depends upon winning. The pressure can be great.
I stand by my statements. Feel free to disagree.
In my opinion, you both make good arguments. We all acknowledge that this is not an exact science. I believe there are a limited number of throws in an arm -- mechanics and conditioning may extend the number, but it is still finite. Pro players -- men with bodies in the best possible physical condition -- hurt their arms....in spring training....early in the season....middle of the season....while on pitch counts....while on their own "watch". All three of my sons pitch(ed) --- there have been arm injuries --- nothing too serious. PantherSon pitches for a coach at East that generally believes that 100 pitches is a decent limit. Has he had kids that have gone over 100 over the years? A few times. Did it cause an injury? Not am immediate one -- and nothing to suggest one after the fact. The next 101 pitch performance might be a few too many --- would he be to blame? I don't take that stance.
All I can ask is for a coach that cares about his kids. Only God knows the number of pitches in each arm.
Despite the "roughness" of your debate, it is obvious that you are both passionate about your view --- which means you both care about your kids, as coaches and dads.
Texan -- you've been here long enough to know how this discussion is going to end up.
Thanks posters.
All I can ask is for a coach that cares about his kids. Only God knows the number of pitches in each arm.
Despite the "roughness" of your debate, it is obvious that you are both passionate about your view --- which means you both care about your kids, as coaches and dads.
Texan -- you've been here long enough to know how this discussion is going to end up.
Thanks posters.
quote:Originally posted by ironhorse:
Pitch counts should be one factor in deciding when a kid should come out. There are several others.
FWIW, if I had a kid who felt fine on the mound puss out on me because he heard he was at 110 pitches and his dad told him that was too many I would throw up in my mouth.
I agree that pitch count is just one of the factor, but there is nothing wrong with having limits that are pre-planned.
quote:Originally posted by Panther Dad:
.... All I can ask is for a coach that cares about his kids. Only God knows the number of pitches in each arm....
Agreed. Only God knows, but consider this. God has built a communications system into the young man's body. Pain, aches, tightness and a tired feeling are among these indicators. This is the rub, only the young man is getting these messages from his body but he is likely 1) inexperienced in reading them (compared to pro pitchers), 2) lacking in good judgement, 3) under the authority of people who control his playing time and who must win to keep their jobs, 4) given to peer and competitive pressure, 5) given to male-ego/hormones/adrenaline and 6) taught by football coaches, dad's etc who want him to be "tough."
This is not a knock on coaches. They don't know what the kid is feeling and they are not medical specialists in shoulder/arm injuries. However, no one (coaches and parents) should assume the kid will know when to say when and have the courage to stick to it.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Would you leave a kid in to pitch 120+ in a blow out? Please answer that.
If you answer "no", please explain why not?
First off, I'll turn off my sarcasm button as not to offend the masses and be as respectful as possible. (However being told I don't care about kids and it's a shame people like me exist in baseball tends to warrant my previous responses...
).If it was a blow out it is highly doubtful I would have a kid throw that much, possible, but very doubtful.
Once we wrap up all of the meaningful games (read: we clinch a district title and still have games to play), most of the starters don't play. Our CF could turn an ankle, get hit by a pitch in the jaw, or hurt his shoulder during in/out.
Does that mean by letting them play in the "meaningful" games that I'm not concerned about their safety? They could get hurt in those games, too. I don't think so. But I'm making sure they play in the games that matter, so by your definition I'm putting wins ahead of their safety.
I want to win games, sure. But not in the way you think. I've done enough as far as the win-loss is concerned to be satisfied. If we lost that playoff series I'm not getting any heat. If we won it I'm not gaining any more affirmation than I already have. But I have kids that work 12 months out of the year to be in that spot, to win those playoff games. If I feel that that kid on the mound gives us the best chance to win and without any substantial risk to his well-being, I going to make that call.
I'm done with the topic and we can disagree. That's fine. But understand this: in everything I do the safety of the kids is paramount. You can sit up in the stands and count pitches. Great. You have one kid to be concerned with. I have 80. Every time I put a kid in the batters' box or on the mound. Every time I hit a hard ground ball to a kid, or put him in the cages, or in front of a pitching machine, or lift in the weight room or condition I worry about safety. If one of my kids get hurt I feel responsible, no matter the circumstance. Not as many as you think coach solely for wins and losses and **** sure not for the money. It's about seeing kids achieve more than they thought they could. That's why it's called coaching.
quote:Originally posted by ironhorse:quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Would you leave a kid in to pitch 120+ in a blow out? Please answer that.
If you answer "no", please explain why not?
......
But understand this: in everything I do the safety of the kids is paramount. You can sit up in the stands and count pitches. Great. You have one kid to be concerned with. I have 80. .....
What I have seen supports what Ironhorse is saying. Most of the HS coaches are truly concerned about the health and safety of the kids. He also makes a good point that he has a large number of kids to manage... and there are new ones coming and going each year. The coach doesn't know how to read all the kids' minds and most of the kids want to win worse than anybody else. Therefore it is important for the parents to play a role and understand what their kid's body is saying about their condition and to educate and support the kid on throwing limits. Parents may have to be the "bad guy" sometimes. Coaches should not be upset that parents are concerned about their kids health and parent should realize that coaches are probably doing the best they can and are sincere about the health of the players as well.
Ironhorse, Thanks for giving us the insight "in the trenches." I for one applaud your committment to the safety of your players. Balancing their risk of injury (anytime they are on the field, in the weight room, etc.) against their deisre to compete, should be left in the capable hands of guys like you who are committed to it.
It is quite easy for us (parents) to sit in the stands and second guess or speculate. However, I think the points that NorTex, Texan and you have made are all important for maintaining the integrity of the this topic...Our Kids' Safety Comes First.
Conventional wisdom suggests that for 17s & 18s, 90, 100, 110, or 120 a certainly debatable limits. What is not debatable in my opinion is 130, 140, 150 & 160! I don't care how much rest they get afterwards.
As you all have no doubt discussed in the past, I would suggest that there are a host of MLB pitching scouts concerned about # of pitches and frequency of mound time in both hs and college.
It is quite easy for us (parents) to sit in the stands and second guess or speculate. However, I think the points that NorTex, Texan and you have made are all important for maintaining the integrity of the this topic...Our Kids' Safety Comes First.
Conventional wisdom suggests that for 17s & 18s, 90, 100, 110, or 120 a certainly debatable limits. What is not debatable in my opinion is 130, 140, 150 & 160! I don't care how much rest they get afterwards.
As you all have no doubt discussed in the past, I would suggest that there are a host of MLB pitching scouts concerned about # of pitches and frequency of mound time in both hs and college.
quote:Originally posted by OldDallas:
Parents may have to be the "bad guy" sometimes. Coaches should not be upset that parents are concerned about their kids health and parent should realize that coaches are probably doing the best they can and are sincere about the health of the players as well.
That's the best way to put it. Because obviously without the sacrifices the parents make with their kids the coaches would never be able to be successful. Don't mean to sound like a bitter coach.
quote:Originally posted by ironhorse:
I'm done with the topic and we can disagree. That's fine. But understand this: in everything I do the safety of the kids is paramount. You can sit up in the stands and count pitches. Great. You have one kid to be concerned with. I have 80. Every time I put a kid in the batters' box or on the mound. Every time I hit a hard ground ball to a kid, or put him in the cages, or in front of a pitching machine, or lift in the weight room or condition I worry about safety. If one of my kids get hurt I feel responsible, no matter the circumstance. Not as many as you think coach solely for wins and losses and **** sure not for the money. It's about seeing kids achieve more than they thought they could. That's why it's called coaching.
And you can understand this. I have coached. I chose to use the guidelines set as a result of scientific study. While boys played for me, they didn't have arm problems.
Accidents happen. Bad hops happen. Ankles get twisted. Bones get broken. But these are accidents.
Overuse can be PREVENTED. It is NOT an accident. So your discussion of "meaningful games" and accidents is not applicable. That was merely throwing dust in the air to distract from the real issue being discussed.
Bottom line: You have admitted you wouldn't have a kid throw that much in a blowout. Yet you did have a kid throw that much in a game you wanted to win. My point is made by your own admissions. The win was more important than the risk of arm problems. PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying the latter had no importance to you. Rather I'm saying getting the W was more important to you.
When I coached, I was the adult. I made the decision to minimize the chance of injury due to overuse. I made the choice to develop and use more pitchers. That is why it's called coaching.
Big difference.
We will agree to disagree. I'm done, PD.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
When I coached, I was the adult. I made the decision to minimize the chance of injury due to overuse. I made the choice to develop and use more pitchers. That is why it's called coaching.
Big difference.
We will agree to disagree. I'm done, PD.
You win. You're Earl Weaver and Mother Theresa. Congrats.
(Develop more pitchers...why didn't I think of that?!?!)
Too bad each of you have to end your intelligent posts with shots across the table and/or accusations. This is an age-old debate and there will never be 100% agreement. All three of my sons have pitched. One of the three had a minor injury during his playing days. Does that mean he was over-worked and the other two weren't? Does that mean that his coaches cared more about winning than the others -- or less about his players' safety? Does our relative good fortune mean that PS will never sustain an injury as a result of pitching? I think there are obvious cases when pitchers are over-used. And cases when injuries occur without over-use. I'm not taking sides here -- an argument using scientific findings versus coaches' motive isn't exactly apples to apples, but there were good points from both views. I enourage you all to communicate with your son's coaches. I see parents that seem "afraid" of their son's HS (and summer) coaches. I tend to be optomistic --- preferring to believe that most coaches are sympathetic to genuine parental concerns when it comes to injuries....and many other things. And most coaches are passionate about winning...they hate to lose. As a matter of fact, the Plano East coach wants to instill that into his team, with balanced perspective.
Along with the passion of the debate, Texan and Ironhorse have made good points on either side --- without reference to Train or some kid moving across town.
Along with the passion of the debate, Texan and Ironhorse have made good points on either side --- without reference to Train or some kid moving across town.
PD great post
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
High pitch counts are over rated to an extent.... Occasionally we have had pitchers get well over 100 pitches, and when this happened we put them on 7 days rest. IMO rest is way more important then number of pitches thrown... I have more experience with pitchers coming up lame throwing 50 pitches, and trying to relieve on two days rest then high pitch counts once every 7 days.
Heard through the grapevine that a Lewisville pitcher threw 126 pitches on Monday then came back and threw 66 pitches in relief on Thursday.
Communication among Parents and HS coach.
That's a good one.
That's a good one.
justabigfan
The coach does not care about the kid... IMO the 126 isnt that big a deal, but 2 days rest after 126
That kid should not have pitched again until monday (friday pen).
quote:Heard through the grapevine that a Lewisville pitcher threw 126 pitches on Monday then came back and threw 66 pitches in relief on Thursday.
The coach does not care about the kid... IMO the 126 isnt that big a deal, but 2 days rest after 126
That kid should not have pitched again until monday (friday pen).quote:Originally posted by deemax:
justabigfan...IMO the 126 isnt that big a deal, but 2 days rest after 126quote:...Lewisville pitcher threw 126 pitches on Monday then came back and threw 66 pitches in relief on Thursday.
126 is a big deal. Tread carefully.