Pitch Counts in HS?

I knew how many pitches my son threw after every HS game. His coach kept the pitch count. I would either get from my son after the game or from the coach. He never went over about 94 pitches. If he got to 80 something the inning before, they would usually put someone in to close. He threw four compete games during the season. Totals for those games were 94,92, 71 and 67. The other games he threw, he came out prior to completing the game based on pitch count.

Hi my2b and welcome to the HHBBW. I have seen many threads on this subject before and you can search for "pitch count" and find many previous threads.

IMHO, YES, you should worry about pitch count.

Throwing tired is when you do damage and it may not show up right away. How many and how often is different for many kids as is the appropriate rest period in between pitching events. It also varies for which part of the season you are in (early vs late in the season). If your coach is not counting and adhering to a limit shame on him!

Young arms with grouth plates not fused should stick to a strick pitch count.

My son's HS coach started out around 45 to 50 pitches and increased about 10 pitches each week until you get to 80 or 90. Some kids can go to 100 or more if they are 17 or 18 year old players. All this is very individually driven. These standards are lower for younger kids (around 14 and under).

My son tried to rest 1 hour for each game pitch thrown (50 pitches 50 hours rest before next start). This is more or less a rule of thumb so to speak. Many people like to use it because it is easy to use.

Hope this helps?

Strict pitch counts are a good idea for players who don't long-toss year round or who don't at least condition their arm prior to the season; who haven't properly warmed up; who have poor mechanics; who aren't in top condition; or who have racked up a high pitch count in the most recent start or in a single inning.

Otherwise, I'm not much of a believer in strict pitch counts. There are some pitchers who I'd be concerned about after 35 pitches, and others I'd not worry about after 100 pitches. After all, it's usually the pitchers legs and not the arm that tires. In fact, I think enforcing a low pitch count for h.s. kids who meet the criteria I mentioned above is actually counter-productive.

The thing is that I am learning is that all pitchers are different and should be treated as such. If a pitcher's usual outing is 90-100, that's ok and that is where it should remain give or take. All pitchers begin each season on a lower count in the beginning. Watch for the getting tired signals which could be not following through, or leaving it up too high, or his arm slot changes. The coach should be doing this, if he knows what he is doing.

A lot also depends on what type of pitches a young pitcher is throwing, and at what velocity.
Pitch counts are important, IMO, spread out over 7 innings is good, but watch for innings with long pitch counts, that's when the pitcher tires and that's when things can happen.
JMO.

Im with TPM on this one, personally i think pitch counts are kinda useless. This past year as a sophmore i threw 5 strait complete games and know for a fact i was over 100 pitches in 4 of the games and in the 80's for one. And that was during school ball season and i had to arm pain or weekness in my arm after a few days of rest from each outing over the whole summer when i was playing legion. My fastball velo has actually gone up over the summer and right now i am throwing the fastest i ever have and my catcher is estimating around 80. So i have concluded that for me at least a pitch count is useless, ill let the coach know if i need to be taken out becasue i want a future in baseball and dont need to jeopardise it.

I worry about it, but my son's not a full-time pitcher, so these other folks know a lot more about it. We didn't worry about it when he was younger, and he had some growth-related overuse injuries until about age 14. His arm is now finally doing great, and I don't want to see any other overuse injuries.

I think part of my worry is that 2B only pitches occasionally (he is MIF/3B), so coaches don't have him throw pens, or work with mechanics, or anything like that. But when he does pitch, he can be very effective, so they leave him in there. He pitches mostly in relief, but started 3 games in 2009, and won all 3 - 2 were complete game shutouts. 2Bdad got me a pitch counter for last Valentine's day (he's a hopeless romantic! ) and I use it. He got close to 90 once, and 2Bdad was ready to go take him off the mound himself, but the coach took action.

Nick, hopefully you meant NO arm pain or weakness. Arm pain or weakness is not normal. My son has always been a high pitch-count high inning guy but NEVER has had arm pain or weakness. He even likes to throw the next day.

Nick, I was trying to figure out where TPM said pitch counts don't matter. She says it depends, everyone is different and pitch counts start out low and increase over the season. How would you know this uless you are counting the pitches?

You need to be aware that there are coaches out there that will and do OVER USE arms. Too many pitches in a game or in a single inning, not enough rest inbetween starts are just a few things that can damage your arm. As Bum points out pain after throwing is something to be concerned about and I believe it depends on where the pain is. Pain in the muscle is usually not a big deal. Pain in the joints you may need to find out what is causing it. This also is a cumlative affect and continued over use can add up to big problems.

Good luck with your approach!

here we go again. whats next How many ground balls and throws a kid should be allowed to do in practice. sorry for the sarcasm but I just can't help it.

this pitch count thing goes on and on. I was watching a major league game and a guy is pitching a 3 hit shutout in the 7th inning and the announcers are wondering if the manager will lift the guy as his pitch count is such and such.

There will always be some controversy over the number of pitches. However, there is indisputable evidence that the number of arm injuries and subsequent surgeries is very alarming among young pitchers and players.

At the risk of sounding like a salesman, I highly recommend that any young pitcher and his parents contact 3PSports if they are concerned about this. This group includes some of the foremost experts in baseball and the medical profession, including Doc Andrews himself. The only thing I know for sure is that the medical profession and the coaching profession have not always seen eye to eye when it comes to this subject. 3PSports with Rick Peterson, a well regarded former MLB Pitching coach, Jim Duquette a former MLB GM, several others among the tops in the business have partnered with ASMI and Doc Andrews to find some common ground. They might just save a lot of young arms from being injured while at the same time actually produce much better results when it comes to production.

A word of warning to those who have sons that are primary position players and only pitch when needed. This can be very dangerous, possibly equally or even more dangerous than being a pitcher only.

Example 1... Last year there was an Aflac All American who was generally regarded the top catching prospect for the 2009 draft. He hurt himself pitching, not catching, in high school and that resulted in Tommy John surgery. He still signed for a lot of money, but he dropped to the 4th round.

Example 2... This year there was an Aflac All American who is considered a possible top 2 round pick as a middle infielder. He could only DH in this year's Aflac game because he was scheduled for TJ surgery about a week after that game. He got hurt while pitching in an “important” game.

Neither of the above were a pitching prospect in the least... college or pro... both had TJ surgery that was a direct result of them pitching while in high school. Neither accumulated a lot of innings pitched or extra high pitch counts. One was a catcher, the other a shortstop.

Just something to think about.

It isn't surprising that a position player who pitches would come down with a serious overuse injury. Pitching/throwing done in just the right amounts can build up the arm to help it handle the stresses involved. When it comes to the UCL it is mostly the muscles that help reduce the load on the UCL that can be strengthened. That's why there's a risk beyond a certain pitch count or when pitching with too little rest. The muscles that offload the UCL during pitching become fatigued and the UCL very quickly begins to see higher loads than it has been strengthened enough to handle. With a position player the UCL hasn't been strengthened (or injured) through pitching. However, the muscles that offload the UCL haven't been trained to have the stamina and they can become fatigued far sooner than would happen to someone who has developed the stamina in those muscles through pitching. All too soon the UCL which hasn't been strengthened through pitching is subjected to much higher loads as the muscles fatigue at a much lower pitch count than one would expect from a pitcher. Suddenly, the UCL is injured.

Pitching safety is very difficult to determine. Pitching can build up muscles, tendons and ligaments if done in just the right amounts and it can also damage tendons and especially ligaments if done just a little bit too much. Unfortunately, every pitcher is different and no one has figured out a way to determine just what the right amount of throwing is for each pitcher that will allow them to strengthen their UCL without damaging it. Even if they did, they'd then have to worry about the shoulder which may have different thresholds.

I think every pitcher is different and that one has to try to find the best approach based on trial and error with an eye on risk vs reward. The easiest way to avoid pitching injuries is to never throw a ball, but there's not much reward in that approach.

JMO

Yes, I DID not say that pitch counts do not matter.

My feeling is that eventually (notice that I use the word eventually) some issues catch up with a pitcher, actually eventially issues seem to catch up with many players, pitchers or not. That is why it is very important to monitor young pitchers and all young players, and make sure that a regular conditioning program is in place.

I go with PG, follow the advice of those in the profession that see injuries on a regualr basis and follow their suggestions for each particular age group.

My son's HS team had great pitching and marginal offense.

We went extra innings at least half a dozen times. Without looking it up, I'd say our opponents had pitchers go over 100 at least 10 times (in 36 games) and maybe as many as 15.

We won two games, one in the 9th and one in the 10th where we beat the other team's starter. One was in the 125 pitch range, the other was around 135-140.

In the state semi-final, we had to lose twice. Our opponent was down in the 4th of game one and brought in their best pitcher. He finished that game and they came back and beat us in the bottom of the 7th. He then (after an hour break) started the next game and proceeded to beat us with a complete game shut out. Total pitch count on the night was 172. He now attends the University of Arizona and I trust (pray) that his arm is OK.

Count pitches and DON'T rely on anyone else counting them for you...