Pitcher receiving signals

First of all how does the batter get first base on a balk ?

Secondly if he, the pitcher, is not on the rubber he can do whatever he wants, basically.

I think your umpires need some training

Thanks for reply. What I suspected was that the pitcher is an in-fielder before they touch the rubber and figured we could signal how ever we wanted directly to him.

I think what we ran into is something that I see quite often. I see coaches that immediately try to manipulate the ump teams early in the game. Those type coaches test the umps to see what they can get away with. The good ones, umps, see right through it. The young ones, that might not be sure of a league based rule might cave-in to the aggressive coaches. I think in my case, we got duped by the opposing coach. Unfortunately, the BU got duped too. So, we had to comply for that game.

6.1.1 Requires the pitcher to take his sign FROM THE CATCHER with his pivot foot in contact with the rubber. Signs from the coach can be given anytime.

There is no penalty prescribed for taking signs from F2 while off the rubber, certainly not a balk. The PU should warn the pitcher and eject him from the game if he does it again. In this case, the pitcher's (and coach's) actions were entirely within the rules.

The written rule is different among NFHS, OBR, and NCAA. All of the written rules differ from actual practice.

NFHS requires the pitcher to take "his signs" from the catcher while on the rubber, and the penalty is a ball/balk. However, the pitching regulations don't start until he intentionally toes the rubber, and signs taken from behind the rubber are exempt. Also, as TRhit notes, awarding the batter 1st base is creative, but hardly correct under any code except Calvin Ball.

NCAA doesn't care who is giving the signs, but the pitcher has to take them from the rubber. Penalty is a ball, and is not a balk even with runners on base.

OBR also requires the sign to be taken from the rubber. There is no penalty; the umpire should just tell the pitcher to not do that.

Now for the reality, as has been discussed many times on umpire message boards. The whole point of this rule is to avoid quick pitches, and to enforce a modicum of rhythm to the pitchers initial motion. Experienced umpires don't worry about signs and who gives them or if any are given at all; they just make sure that the pitcher doesn't quick pitch.

Regarding the original post, think about a R1, R3 situation, and the catcher comes out in front of the plate to give defensive signals. Do we actually require the pitcher to be on the rubber while this is going on? No, because the rules don't refer to defensive signals but rather just the pitchers signs. So the umpire was wrong to award first base and wrong to believe that any infraction had occurred. Even if the pitcher were getting his signs from the bench, established practice is to ignore it-- as long as he pauses as if he is geting signs from the catcher just prior to starting his motion.

3FG - I agree with you 100% on OBR, NCAA and "reality." Disagree on the penalty in FED. If F1 "quick pitched," the penalty is a ball or balk. But for just taking signs from F2 while not engaged, it's the same as OBR. Tell him to not do that, and if he insists, dump him.

Could the coach call the pitches from the dugout without ever using the catcher and the pitcher not on the rubber?

Instead of the catcher squatting and giving signs could the catcher, pitcher, IF and OF look into the dugout and see a set of signals come from the coach as to whether he wants fastball, curve, change etc.... Then the pitcher gets on the rubber and throws a pitch.

I hope that makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
If F1 "quick pitched," the penalty is a ball or balk. But for just taking signs from F2 while not engaged, it's the same as OBR. Tell him to not do that, and if he insists, dump him.

Don't think so. Here is the relevant section of 6.1.1 "He shall take his sign from the catcher with his pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate. The pitching regulations begin when he intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate."

If he's not engaged, there is no proscription to taking signs (and quite a few other things, like throwing to a base). However, whatever is proscribed by 6.1.1 has the ball/balk penalty associated with it. It is listed just following 6.6.3: "PENALTY (Art. 1,2,3): The ball is dead immediately...". Unlike OBR it is not a "don't do that."

This isn't just my opinion; Childress in the Baseball Rule Differences lists balk/ball as the penalty for not taking a sign while on the rubber.

Coach2709: Under all codes, once a pitcher does get on the rubber, he needs to at least simulate taking a sign. Otherwise he is at risk for being called for a "quick pitch". And, for the safety of the catcher, he actually should take signs from the catcher just to make sure they aren't crossed up.

3FG: I stand corrected on the penalty in FED. I'm looking to prevent that call though.

Great topic, I too have run in to this and have various umps take each stance, they simply are interpreting what they want. If the pitcher does not "shake his head in acknowledgement" to the coach giving the sign then toes the rubber and shakes his head at the catcher then I have been told that is the way to do it. He is an infielder if he is off the rubber he should be able to get a sign from his dad in the parking lot if he wants to.

As noted, it is a balk in HS, but I certainly wouldn't enforce it unless it was a huge problem. I simply head it off at the pass and tell him to not to do it. I personally don't care where the signals come from as long as he properly stops a little before pitches. In other words, I won't let him quick pitch in any level. Coaches sometimes try to play mind games and complain about things like this, but also, things like gloves, sleeves and coaches position in the box between pitches. This isn't to try and buy a call or to intimidate the umps but to get into the pitcher's or opposing manager's head. It's bush and should be shut down quicking by the officials.