Pitcher throwing to an unoccupied base?

When the pitcher threw to 3rd base did he step towards third, or did he just throw the ball to 3rd?

If he just threw the ball to third it's a balk. If he stepped towards 3rd and threw the ball it is not a balk.

Need some more info before we can determine if it's a balk or not.

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If he just threw the ball to third it's a balk. If he stepped towards 3rd and threw the ball it is not a balk.

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..... our pitcher steps off and throws to 3rd.

If pitcher stepped off first he doesn't need to step to the base.

In any case, it seems that the ump got it wrong.

One of the few problems I have with baseball rules is that we always put exceptions at the end of the rules....I think the careless umpire student only reads the first part and not the last.....and we end up with results like the above call....

Lets take that rule.

Rule 8.05 (d) states a pitcher can not throw or feint a throw to an unoccupied base EXCEPT for the purpose of making a play or trying to make a play.

Does it come accross easier if we word it like this.....

Rule 8.05 (d) Except for the purpose of making a play or trying to make a play, a pitcher can not throw or feint a throw to an unoccupied base

probably wont help much, but it does put the exception in the forefront.......

Unless there is something we cant see..., it was a blown call.

piaa - Please re-write the rules. Your example makes so much more sense.

style - I should have read it better.

UMP BLEW THE CALL.

He stepped off of the mound. The ump didn't call a balke because of his movement, He said he called it because he threw to an unoccupied base.

Funny thing is the coach for the other team played SS for Oklahoma U. when they won the College World Series in 1994, and played 8 years in pro ball, and he even said it was a balk. Guess playing does not an umpire make.

and sometimes its the opposite

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playing does not an umpire make

Got that right. I always get a kick out of some of the ex-player TV announcers and their attempts to explain the rules.

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Originally posted by StyleMismatch:

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playing does not an umpire make

Got that right. I always get a kick out of some of the ex-player TV announcers and their attempts to explain the rules.

No doubt! Joe Morgan has a complete and total inability to grasp the rules and he routinely spouts off on something when he flat wrong! My wife usually mocks me when I start yelling the proper rule explanation at him when he is lost. She thinks it is pretty funny.

I am going to assume the pitcher was RH. If when he came set and he picked his leg up to deliver to the plate the runner stole BUT the pitcher did not cross his back leg AND then stepped to third then you open the door to debate whether it is a balk or not (basically it is the right handed equivelant to the LHP throw to 1B move). He has made a move toward the plate but also satisfying the requirements for another balk rule he steps to 3B. Is that a balk or not?????

If he stepped off then he is no longer in a position to deceive a runner. He can legally throw the ball where he wants - even to left field.

If he flinched / moved / paniced when the runner left 2B and then stepped off / threw to 3B then that is a balk.

I love baseball - you have to be smart and good a debating.

In your sitch if he picks his foot up and throws to third to get the runner he is OK. If he started toward home and then threw to third it is a balk. If you think he hung his foot therefore stopping his motion, then it's a balk. And finally if he crosses the back plane of the rubber completely then he has to pitch or go to second. Anywhere else and it's a balk.

He came set, checked the runner, the runner had already broke to 3rd, the pitcher stepped towards 3rd and threw the ball, the 3rd baseman tagged the runner. The ump called balk because he said "pitcher can not throw to an unoccupied base"

cccs -
In your original post, you said your pitcher stepped off and threw to 3rd base.

In your last post, you said he stepped towards 3rd and threw the ball.

These are two diiferent situations.
Based upon what actually occured can we determine if there was a balk or not.

The reason I bring this up, is because as an umpire we have to make the decision based upon what happened at the time. Yet over the past 7-days, your explanation has changed. It could be a typo on your part, or as you have read the various situation, maybe you revised your situation based upon what actually happened.

Bottom line, the umps explanation for the balk was wrong. But was there a balk??? It's hard to tell.

Pirate fan he did step off, he checked the runner, who had broke to 3rd, the pitcher stepped towards 3rd, and threw, he was off the rubber when he threw and stepped off towards 3rd after he saw the runner had broke to 3rd. The ump and the opposing coach never questioned the pitchers move, only that he had thrown to an unoccupied base.

If he stepped off then it is not a balk no way, no how.

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Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
If he stepped off then it is not a balk no way, no how.

Unless he

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Originally posted by cccsdad:
stepped off towards 3rd after he saw the runner had broke to 3rd.

If he stepped (with his right foot) directly toward third base then that would be a balk, but if he properly disengaged the rubber it would not be a balk. It seems that the umpire didn't have a great grasp of the rules in this situation.

He came set, picked up his front foot and stepped towards 3rd, he made no deceptive move he made the same move you would when you throw to 3rd on a pick off. stepped towards 3rd with his front foot. Again, his motion was not brought into question, just that he threw to an unoccupied base.

If that is what he did then as long as the runner was actually stealing he is OK.

The ump got it wrong. Doesn't even pass the "common sense rule", let alone the rule stated above.

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Originally posted by cccsdad:
He came set, picked up his front foot and stepped towards 3rd, he made no deceptive move he made the same move you would when you throw to 3rd on a pick off. stepped towards 3rd with his front foot. Again, his motion was not brought into question, just that he threw to an unoccupied base.

If the runner made any motion that could be construed as being an attempt or fake attempt for third base then this move is legal. Unfortunately this umpire must not know or understand the applicable ruling.

FYI cccsdad, the action you describe is not "stepping off" it is a direct move "from the rubber".

Well he was disengaged from the rubber when the throw was made. He did not step BACK off the rubber.

Exactly the point. He was on the rubber, stepped to the base and in doing so disengaged from the rubber. This is a straight move and is considered from the rubber. If the ball goes out of play then it is one base. If he had stepped off then it's two bases.

I was in a tournament in Northern Wisconsin when I first began to umpire. The umpire I was paired with made a call on a play just like this one. The runner took off for second, and the pitcher went from his stretch and stepped toward second base to make the throw BEFORE STEPPING OFF the rubber, thus he threw to an unoccupied base because first base, not second base was occupied at this point. The play was called dead, and a balk was called for making a throw to an unoccupied base. The correct thing for the pitcher to do would have been to step off the rubber then throw to second base.

That is not correct. He did exactly what he was supposed to do. He stepped to the base to make a play. Your partner didn't understand the proper ruling.

I understand that the rule states it is not a balk if the right handed pitcher is trying to make a play on the runner. It just doesn't make sense in the event of a runner attempting to steal third that a pitcher, in the middle of his pitch, can step to third in the form of a pick (assuming that he did not make a move home). I would consider that a balk. However, it is legal for a pitcher to come off the back of the rubber in the middle of his pitch is he steps with his lead foot back like a pick to second. As long as he stepped with his lead foot at the runner and not a straight pick/throw to third. If what people are saying is legal, how is that any different in the event of a single runner on first base and a pitch turning to pick at second in the event of a runner stealing. As a former player, a baserunner steals when he sees the left heal (right handed pitcher) raise off the groung. At that point he is committed to go home. If what you're saying is true about a pitcher picking to an unoccupied base if he is attempting to make a play on a runner, then what would be the point of ever having pitch outs? A pitcher could just turn in the middle of his pitch and pick to second. I understand that it seems people are interpreting what they feel the rule states but it just doesn't past the smell test to me.

Thanks,
Dave

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Originally posted by miller_time:
If what you're saying is true about a pitcher picking to an unoccupied base if he is attempting to make a play on a runner, then what would be the point of ever having pitch outs? A pitcher could just turn in the middle of his pitch and pick to second.

So much to answer and so little time. Let me address the above. A pitcher cannot turn in the middle of his delivery to home to throw to a base, occupied or otherwise. That would be a balk. I think you're confused about what constitutes "the middle of his pitch."

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As a former player, a baserunner steals when he sees the left heal (right handed pitcher) raise off the groung. At that point he is committed to go home. If what you're saying is true about a pitcher picking to an unoccupied base if he is attempting to make a play on a runner, then what would be the point of ever having pitch outs? A pitcher could just turn in the middle of his pitch and pick to second.

No he's not committed to go home just by lifting the foot: For example R3 the RHer can lift the leg just like a LHer can to first. If no R3 and no "play" at 2nd, ie. no R2 nor R1 "going or feinting" to 2ND, then yes F1 is committed to pitch once the FF is lifted.

With R1, F1 doesn't simple step through to 2nd, because, if no bodies going or feinting, it's a balk. So it would be a roll of the dice for F1 to attempt this unless, there was really a play there.

The OP, F1 did not "disengage", he made what sounds like a perfect move to third, now I didn't see the move so will take your word for it, and you state the BU "stated, balked him for throwing to an UOB, so very simply, if R2 was going, the move was legal
and the Umpire just blew it. piaa_ump I'd bet dollars to donuts hit it exactly on the head, "read the whole rule".
Now my question, you seem to have understood this rule pretty clearly, why was this call not "protested""? This is a prime example of "when to protest", when an umpire incorrectly enforces a rule. Now had he said I balked him for not stepping too third or something judgemental, ya your stuck.

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Originally posted by jjk:
[QUOTE]With R1, F1 doesn't simple step through to 2nd, because, if no bodies going or feinting, it's a balk. So it would be a roll of the dice for F1 to attempt this unless, there was really a play there.

To jimmy03, i was referring to being in the middle of his motion without making a commitment to home.
For jjk, so a pitcher could only turn and throw to second in the middle of his motion if R1, on first is stealing (assuming R1 is the only runner on base)? In that event what keeps a runner that is stealing from recognizing that the pitcher is throwing to second base and immediately stopping and going back to first? Would that be a balk for throwing to an unoccupied bag? Or would it be an umpire judgment call whether it was a bluff or a steal? Would it actually be possible for the runner to get into a "pickle" from this situation?

Thanks again,
Dave

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Originally posted by miller_time:
In that event what keeps a runner that is stealing from recognizing that the pitcher is throwing to second base and immediately stopping and going back to first? Would that be a balk for throwing to an unoccupied bag? Or would it be an umpire judgment call whether it was a bluff or a steal? Would it actually be possible for the runner to get into a "pickle" from this situation?

Thanks again,
Dave

The 3 codes differ slightly on what constitutes a balk for throwing or feinting to an unoccupied base. It is NOT a balk if:

FED: It is an attempt to put out or drive back a runner.

NCAA: It is an attempt to retire a runner or prevent the runner from advancing.

OBR: The pitcher is making a play on the runner.

FED & NCAA are pretty lenient here. If the runner breaks and the pitcher throws (or feints) to the advance base, it is a legal move even if the runner recognizes the move and returns. OBR appears to be more strict, since a "play" is generally defined as (among other things) a throw in an attempt to retire (not drive back) a runner, but when is the last time you saw a pitcher balked for this? I've never seen it happen.

Of course it would be a different matter if, when the pitcher made his move to 2nd, R1 was just standing there or moving back toward 1st. Now you have a balk in all codes.

You say the pitcher is commited to pitch when he lifts his left foot. This is intrue, it is only the beginning of his motion. It allows him to do a number of things including pitching, throwing to a base or throwing to an advance base to make a play. Assume R1 only, when F1's heal goes up he can certainly go to first or roll around to the advancing runner. If in his motion his foot goes past the rubber then he then limited to pitching or going to second.
Now back to the OP, it was the same thing except tp third. Again he can go to second, third or home. Once his foot breaks the rubber then he can only go to second or pitch.
So the conclusion is as long as his foot doesn't pass the rubber he can go to any base that the runner is on or advancing to. The judgement comes from the umpire as whether the runner was advancing or not.

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Originally posted by miller_time:

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Originally posted by jjk:
[QUOTE]With R1, F1 doesn't simple step through to 2nd, because, if no bodies going or feinting, it's a balk. So it would be a roll of the dice for F1 to attempt this unless, there was really a play there.

To jimmy03, i was referring to being in the middle of his motion without making a commitment to home.
For jjk, so a pitcher could only turn and throw to second in the middle of his motion if R1, on first is stealing (assuming R1 is the only runner on base)? In that event what keeps a runner that is stealing from recognizing that the pitcher is throwing to second base and immediately stopping and going back to first? Would that be a balk for throwing to an unoccupied bag? Or would it be an umpire judgment call whether it was a bluff or a steal? Would it actually be possible for the runner to get into a "pickle" from this situation?

Thanks again,
Dave

If you are serious about coaching, try this:

http://umpireacademy.com/store/

Order the Balk DVD...best on the market. You'll understand better with visuals.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:http://umpireacademy.com/store/

Order the Balk DVD...best on the market. You'll understand better with visuals.

I second that. Jim goes into the different rules codes too.

quote:

If you are serious about coaching, try this:

http://umpireacademy.com/store/

Order the Balk DVD...best on the market. You'll understand better with visuals

I third it...........

I own it,
I watch it regularly........
I show it at my association meetings........

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
You say the pitcher is commited to pitch when he lifts his left foot. This is intrue, it is only the beginning of his motion. It allows him to do a number of things including pitching, throwing to a base or throwing to an advance base to make a play. Assume R1 only, when F1's heal goes up he can certainly go to first or roll around to the advancing runner. If in his motion his foot goes past the rubber then he then limited to pitching or going to second.
Now back to the OP, it was the same thing except tp third. Again he can go to second, third or home. Once his foot breaks the rubber then he can only go to second or pitch.
So the conclusion is as long as his foot doesn't pass the rubber he can go to any base that the runner is on or advancing to. The judgement comes from the umpire as whether the runner was advancing or not.

I really hate to stay on this issue but I keep thinking about it and I just can't grasp how this interpretation of the rule 8.05d applies. In rule 8.05a is uses the phrase "pick off play" (i.e. (a) The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery; If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick off play). In 8.05d, it states to "throw" or feint a "throw". What is the difference between a throw and a pick? I understand there is a difference with runners on second and third compared to just first. In the event a runner is only on first with a right handed pitcher, I would consider he is "committed" to go home once he lifts his left heel (I know people are going to say why I'm wrong but hold on). I would consider this movement part of a motion naturally associated with his pitch. If you are arguing that the pitcher does not have to go home at this point, then I pose the question what would be the advantage of ever pitching out of the stretch? A pitcher could always go out of the windup and until he "makes his motion home", it would be legal for him to turn and make a play on an advancing runner. I just feel like there is a difference between a "throw" and a "pick". I interpret 8.05d as the pitcher can throw to a bag to make a play on a runner as long as he hasn't made any motion naturally associated with his pitch. I don't know how a right handed pitcher can make any legal play but to go home once he lifts his left heel assuming only a runner on first .

Thanks guys,

P.S. I'll definitely look at the video in the link

How would he ever step to first without lifting his foot in some manner.
Let us talk about a runner at first only. If the pitcher is in the wind-up it takes two body parts to consitute the begining of the pitch. If he lifts his foot, without starting his hands, he can step to first and throw. If he starts his hands first he must go home.
Same sitch but from the stretch. Anytime before he comes set he may step to first and throw. Once he comes set he can step to first from the rubber. He can also make a jump or jab step. All three moves require a throw.
If you get a copy of the tape suggested above you will see all this demonstrated.

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Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
How would he ever step to first without lifting his foot in some manner.
Let us talk about a runner at first only. If the pitcher is in the wind-up it takes two body parts to consitute the begining of the pitch. If he lifts his foot, without starting his hands, he can step to first and throw. If he starts his hands first he must go home.
Same sitch but from the stretch. Anytime before he comes set he may step to first and throw. Once he comes set he can step to first from the rubber. He can also make a jump or jab step. All three moves require a throw.
If you get a copy of the tape suggested above you will see all this demonstrated.

Of course a pitcher would have to lift his foot before he could throw to first and he would also have to step to the base. What I'm saying is that is his first movement cannot be with his left leg (right handed pitcher) once he is set prior to making the throw to first. I understand the jump or jab step but that motion has to be simultaneous. There is a move that pitchers do occasionally that is rarely called a balk. The pitcher is in the stretch, and a split-second before the jump throw, he slightly buckles his left knee or slightly raises his left heel in order to try to throw the runner off. Are you saying that the move would actually be legal since he only made one movement?

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Originally posted by miller_time:
The pitcher is in the stretch, and a split-second before the jump throw, he slightly buckles his left knee or slightly raises his left heel in order to try to throw the runner off.

That's a Balk!!!. Time, that's a balk. You, second base.

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:

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Originally posted by miller_time:
The pitcher is in the stretch, and a split-second before the jump throw, he slightly buckles his left knee or slightly raises his left heel in order to try to throw the runner off.

That's a Balk!!!. Time, that's a balk. You, second base.

I completely agree with you! Now let's say that there is only a runner on first base he steals. The right handed pitcher who is set lifts his left leg and turns to make a play at second as if it were a pick to second. I consider that to be a balk for the same reason. Also, let's consider the same situation but a runner on second who steals. If the pitcher lifts his left leg and with out picking to second, steps directly to third in the attempt put the runner out by making a move like a pick to third. I consider that a balk as well! I've looked all over the place and it seems so hard to find a straight answer and reasoning. I've seen several posts where umpires claim that it's a legal move but I don't see how. People keep refering to 8.05d but I interpret that as a "throw", not a "pick" once a pitcher has made any motion naturally associated with his pitch.

Jimmy03, what is your reasoning for calling the original post a "balk". Again, I completely agree with you and I would argue that if the pitcher's first movement once he is set is his left leg moving (right handed pitcher and only a runner on first), then he has made a motion associated with his pitch and the only legal play he can make is to pitch home. Am I wrong on this issue? It seems like it's so easy to talk in circles with this issue.

Thanks

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Originally posted by miller_time:
Now let's say that there is only a runner on first base he steals. The right handed pitcher who is set lifts his left leg and turns to make a play at second as if it were a pick to second. I consider that to be a balk for the same reason.

Nope, not the same. Think about the foot move some more.

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Jimmy03, what is your reasoning for calling the original post a "balk".

Started and stopped.

When he lifted to throw he did so in a smooth continuous manner and did not make a move to home and did not start and stop.

Order the video. Be the first coach on your block to understand balks.

If he moves the foot or heal but does nothing else, it's a balk. But if he picks his foot up to step to first or rolls back to second to throw at a stealing runner, it's legal. Whether you call it a pick or a throw it makes no difference. The rule says he can step to an unoccuppied base to make a play.