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75 replies

Pitcher throwing to an unoccupied base?

M miller_timeMember
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
If he moves the foot or heal but does nothing else, it's a balk. But if he picks his foot up to step to first or rolls back to second to throw at a stealing runner, it's legal. Whether you call it a pick or a throw it makes no difference. The rule says he can step to an unoccuppied base to make a play.


Please watch this video to around 40 seconds.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AoWch1NK_vw&feature=user

The right handed pitcher breaks his left knee as he picks to first base which is called a balk. Yet you argue that if he picks his left foot up then it is legal to step to first as long as he doesn't stop his motion. Would you argue that it was a legal move and it shouldn't have been called a balk?
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
There iss a difference between knee popping and lifting your foot to move to first base. I will balk a knee pop everytime. The other thing that will get you balked is hand or arm flinching. We have a kid locally that will come set, look over his right shoulder and flinch his right arm. I'm fine with it up until the arm moves. I have a regular umpiring partner that was famous for knee flinching when he played high school. I got him a number of times.
M miller_timeMember
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
There iss a difference between knee popping and lifting your foot to move to first base. I will balk a knee pop everytime. The other thing that will get you balked is hand or arm flinching. We have a kid locally that will come set, look over his right shoulder and flinch his right arm. I'm fine with it up until the arm moves. I have a regular umpiring partner that was famous for knee flinching when he played high school. I got him a number of times.


Ok so how is it different? I agree that it is a balk but I feel like my reasoning may be different than yours. If you're going to call a balk for a "knee pop", which one of the 13 possible balk rulings are you using for justifying your decision? I don't want to post all 13 balk situations here so here's a link to the mlb website with rules.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2008/official_rules/08_the_pitcher.pdf

I personally consider it a violation of 8.05a which talks about making a natural motion associated with his pitch. However, if this was the case which I feel it is, it would also be illegal to lift the left heel and turn and throw out a stealing runner at second base.

There is a comment further on that states: With a runner on first base the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first, and throw to second. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base.

I do agree that a pitcher can throw to an unoccupied base in an attempt to retire a runner, just not once he has lifted his left heel as I consider that a motion naturally associated with his pitch.
Rule 8.01b says: After assuming Set Position, any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption.

Also, I can't find the situation of a pitcher turning to retire a stealing runner once he lifts his leg (right hander) actually taking place anywhere. I would think that it would be a huge advantage for the pitcher to do so but apparently it's just not that common....Do you have any examples of this situation in real life without requiring me to order a $40 video?
Last edited by miller_time
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by miller_time:

If you're going to call a balk for a "knee pop", which one of the 13 possible balk rulings are you using for justifying your decision?



8.05 A

Surely your career and your players are worth a $40 investment to be a better coach and teacher.

You simply will not accept our explanations, so witness the move and explanation by the head of the number 1 professional umpire school.
Last edited by Jimmy03
Michael S. TaylorMichael S. Taylor1,000+ posts
We are arguing very much the same thing with a slight difference. You are hung up on the heal. Whether he is pitching or making a move to first he can't lift the heal and set it down. Most times, your heal lift and my knee pop are one and the same. Both things happen at the same time. If he is going to make a move to first he has to lift his foot and step toward first before he can throw. 8.05c comment. The heal lift that you are talking about is a 8.05a violation.
M miller_timeMember
We're not arguing the same thing. You are saying that it's legal for a right handed pitcher to do an "inside move" to second base with only a runner on first as long as the runner is stealing. I am saying that it's illegal and should be called a balk. I was using the knee pop as an example to prove my point. It seems like any reasoning you guys give on here for it to be legal can easily be diputed as I've tried to do through the past several posts. I don't care about the heal or leg. A baserunner is taught to look at the left heal of a right handed pitcher.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6INuw7LrLKk

And by the way, I'm not a coach....I'm an umpire. I played for about 15 years and I have been umpiring for the past 6. In that time I've only heard once of a pitcher turning and throwing to second to try to get an advancing runner out in the form of an "inside move". It caused a big debate which really made me start thinking about it.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by miller_time:
We're not arguing the same thing. You are saying that it's legal for a right handed pitcher to do an "inside move" to second base with only a runner on first as long as the runner is stealing.


Yes. As long as it is a continous move, F1 may turn, step and throw to second to make a play.

quote:
I am saying that it's illegal and should be called a balk.


According to the rules, JEA, J/R, BRD and years of professional interpretation and practice, you are mistaken.

quote:
I was using the knee pop as an example to prove my point.


Again, the knee pop is starting and stopping, a completely different animal.

quote:
It seems like any reasoning you guys give on here for it to be legal can easily be diputed as I've tried to do through the past several posts.


Only you believe so.

quote:
I don't care about the heal or leg. A baserunner is taught to look at the left heal of a right handed pitcher.


And that is dangerous.

quote:
And by the way, I'm not a coach....I'm an umpire.


Even more reason to invest $40. Coaches and players deserve knowledgable umpires.

quote:
I played for about 15 years and I have been umpiring for the past 6.


Neither of which is any indication of rules knowledge.

quote:
It caused a big debate which really made me start thinking about it.


That's a good start.
Last edited by Jimmy03
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
Miller_time,

You're reading too much into the rule (I give you credit for reading them). It is true that making any motion associated with the pitch and not delivering the pitch is a balk.

But one of the three things a pitcher can legally do from the rubber is step and throw (or feint a throw to 2nd or 3rd) to a base. You cannot step and throw to a base without lifting your free foot (heel). Merely lifting the heel does not commit F1 to the plate, even though it is a motion naturally associated with the pitch.

What matters is what the foot does next. Does it move toward home? Now F1 is committed to pitch. Does it move toward 1st? F1 can still throw to 1st (or 2nd) by first stepping there - placing the foot on the ground. Does it continue behind the rubber? Now, F1 can only throw to 2nd or pitch.

Once he starts ANY motion, F1 must continue in one smooth continuous motion, either to pitch or step & throw. He's allowed to lift his free foot before he decides what to do with it (he MUST lift it to do anything), but if he hangs the leg, or flexes the knee or lifts the heel before lifting the leg, it's a balk because he started a motion and stopped.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
To take off on dash's post, as Evans puts it, if you want to understand one rule, you need to understand them all.

The rule book has over 200 "errors", including outright mistakes, contradictions and omissions. It was written in "add-on" style. When the rulemakers wanted to add a rule, they did just that, rather then go back and correct or change what was already written.

The pitching regulations are a prime example. In one area it says that any time a pitcher begins his motion, he must pitch (let's call that "A".) In another area, it states he can step and throw to a base, which requires a motion that is part of his delivery. (let's call that "B")

How to live with both rules. Basically the rule makers are saying he must do A, unless he does B.

Translated roughly, that means that if a pitcher does not step and throw to a base, once he begins his motion he must continue, uninterrupted, to deliver the ball. That's why we say things like, "started and stopped" when he flinches, or pops a knee, or lifts a heel and doesn't throw to a base or pitch.

MLB has been promising a rewrite for at least the last 15 years to fix all these areas that can cause confusion. Who knows when it will happen.

Until then, you really have to understand all the references to any one situation to rule on it.

And, owning the JEA, J/R and BRD doesn't hurt.
R RPD100+ posts
PIAA, MST, J03, DR...you guys are awesome -- really appreciate your ongoing expertise.

Here's a followup question:
R2, R3, 2 outs, full count on the batter.
RHP knows they'll be breaking on the pitch.
Hoping they'll leave a little too quickly, RHP steps towards 3rd and throws to 3rd.

Is it accurate then to say that had R2 been running as soon as RHP lifted his leg, then the move is legit and R2 becomes an easy out? And that if R2 hadn't started towards 3rd, it would then be a balk?
D dash_riprock1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RPD:
PIAA, MST, J03, DR...you guys are awesome -- really appreciate your ongoing expertise.

Here's a followup question:
R2, R3, 2 outs, full count on the batter.
RHP knows they'll be breaking on the pitch.
Hoping they'll leave a little too quickly, RHP steps towards 3rd and throws to 3rd.

Is it accurate then to say that had R2 been running as soon as RHP lifted his leg, then the move is legit and R2 becomes an easy out? And that if R2 hadn't started towards 3rd, it would then be a balk?


Legit either way. Even if R2 doesn't break (there's no guarantee the runners are off on the pitch in your sitch.), he can throw to 3rd in an attempt to retire R3, running or not. It is common to see a runner on 1st stealing, and LHP steps & throws behind him (to 1st), resulting in a rundown (not a pickle).
JMW37JMW37100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
You say the pitcher is commited to pitch when he lifts his left foot. This is intrue, it is only the beginning of his motion. It allows him to do a number of things including pitching, throwing to a base or throwing to an advance base to make a play. Assume R1 only, when F1's heal goes up he can certainly go to first or roll around to the advancing runner. If in his motion his foot goes past the rubber then he then limited to pitching or going to second.
Now back to the OP, it was the same thing except tp third. Again he can go to second, third or home. Once his foot breaks the rubber then he can only go to second or pitch.
So the conclusion is as long as his foot doesn't pass the rubber he can go to any base that the runner is on or advancing to. The judgement comes from the umpire as whether the runner was advancing or not.


Come again? . . . Sounds like you're saying that a RHP pitcher can lift his left heel and swing to 1B! If that's what you're saying, I believe I'd have to disagree.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMW37:

Come again? . . . Sounds like you're saying that a RHP pitcher can lift his left heel and swing to 1B! If that's what you're saying, I believe I'd have to disagree.


Here we go again.

The rules allow a pitcher, in either set or windup, to step and throw to a base. Please tell me how one does this without lifting his heel.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMW37:
Perhaps I am making an assumption that you don't intend, but I read this as he is swinging his left foot without moving/disengaging his right foot from the rubber.



The rules don't require disengagement to step and throw to a base. Stepping off the back of the rubber is one of the three things a pitcher can do, not a prerequisite for the other two.

OBR 8.01(b) ... From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher’s plate with his pivot foot.

AND
(c)... he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.
Last edited by Jimmy03
JMW37JMW37100+ posts
I still think we're talking about 2 different things. I am fully aware that he does not have to step off the back of the rubber. I'm talking about a RHP picking up his left foot as if to deliver the pitch and simply swinging that foot around (as opposed to "spinning"). If that were a legal pick, why wouldn't you see it....EVER?

If it is in fact legal, I will stand corrected.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JMW37:


If it is in fact legal, I will stand corrected.


What part of c)... he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw, wasn't clear?

It is legal, you stand corrected.

I see it often. the left foot is raised slightly to clear the ground and is swung quickly.

It does come with a danger if not exeucted properly, e.g. it is not done smoothly and continuously, it will be balked. Additionally, many coaches have the same misunderstanging you had, and don't teach it.

Again, the Evans balk video is a must for every umpire and pitching coach.
Last edited by Jimmy03
P pilsner500+ posts
I can't say I'm sure what you mean by lifting the foot "as if to deliver a pitch" but simply picking up the non-pivot foot and in a continuous motion swinging it around toward the base to which the pitcher throws is perfectly legal.
You see this move more commonly made to second base but it's not illegal to make the same move to first. You virtually never see it to first because it's notoriously slow since the right hander starts with his back to first base.

It's like the pick-off move from the wind up position which is legal under OBR. In 15 years of officiating I have never seen a pitcher attempt it. I don't recall ever seeing a pitcher in a MLB game try it either. However, not having seen it doesn't make it illegal.

Additionally, there's a physical risk involved. To make this move from the set position the pitcher will have to pivot on the toe of his right (pivot) foot. If he catches his heel on the rubber or in the hole that is usually in front of it he could end up with a nasty ankle injury as well as a balk call.
Last edited by pilsner
H Hanse23Member
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Here we go again.

The rules allow a pitcher, in either set or windup, to step and throw to a base. Please tell me how one does this without lifting his heel.




In the windup, with a man on first, a pitcher must step off with his right foot <RHP> or left foot <LHP> in order to make a throw to a base.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Hanse23:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Here we go again.

The rules allow a pitcher, in either set or windup, to step and throw to a base. Please tell me how one does this without lifting his heel.




In the windup, with a man on first, a pitcher must step off with his right foot <RHP> or left foot <LHP> in order to make a throw to a base.


FED rules only, not in OBR.

You'll note that in this almost two year old thread I quoted Rule 8.01 which is the pertinent OBR rule.
Last edited by Jimmy03
C Chrisumpire10+ posts

  You said the pitcher stepped off the rubber before throwing to 3rd base, did he step off the back of the rubber withwith his pivot foot?  If yes once he did he is now a fielder so he can do anything.

If he didnt step off the back of the rubber with his pivot foot.....The rule reads it is a balk if the pitcher pics to an unoccupied base UNLESS IT IS FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING A PLAY.  When it says "unless it is for the purpose of making a play" what play would this be considering in runners section of rulebook it says appeals for runners tagging up or missing the base are not considered making a play?  the only play it could be is stealing early, stealing before the pitcher GOES HOME because we're talking about a PIC OFF MOVE.  If the pitcher made a LEGAL pic off move to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play(stealing early) it is not a balk.   A comment is added at the end of this section of the rulebook that says it must be obvious it was for the purpose of making a play which means the runner must show they are stealing before the pitcher goes home.  Remember it must be a legal pic move meaning pitcher has to step right at the base, must step ahead of the throw.....

All in all you said the pitcher stepped off the rubber before throwing to the unoccupied base, if he stepped off legally he is now a fielder so its not a balk considering a fielder can throw anywhere anytime, if he didn't step off legally, as long as the runner was stealing and the pitcher made a LEGAL pic move its not a balk, i.e. picture if the base was occupied when the pitcher picd if it was a legal move.

Knowing this rule would be dynomite in little league why, because most people don't know how this rule works.  Defenses could get lots of outs abusing this rule since many don't know it.  You could say its cheap, but its really taking advantage of knowing the rules which is not cheap since anyone can read the rules.  If your going to try it I suggest seeing if the umpire knows the rule 1st lol.

Last edited by Chrisumpire
M Matt1310,000+ posts
Chrisumpire posted:

When it says "unless it is for the purpose of making a play" what play would this be considering in runners section of rulebook it says appeals for runners tagging up or missing the base are not considered making a play?  the only play it could be is stealing early, stealing before the pitcher GOES HOME because we're talking about a PIC OFF MOVE.  

If you are saying it's illegal for a pitcher to remain engaged with the rubber and throw to a base to make an appeal, you are incorrect. An appeal is a play--the exception you cite is for appeals not being allowed after intervening plays, in which appeals are not included.

C Chrisumpire10+ posts
Matt13 posted:
Chrisumpire posted:

When it says "unless it is for the purpose of making a play" what play would this be considering in runners section of rulebook it says appeals for runners tagging up or missing the base are not considered making a play?  the only play it could be is stealing early, stealing before the pitcher GOES HOME because we're talking about a PIC OFF MOVE.  

If you are saying it's illegal for a pitcher to remain engaged with the rubber and throw to a base to make an appeal, you are incorrect. An appeal is a play--the exception you cite is for appeals not being allowed after intervening plays, in which appeals are not included.

YOUR incorrect buddy!  Read "appeals" in rulebook again, 5.09 (c) (4), or 7.10 in the old rule book, says appeals are not a play.  So if the pitcher stays in contact with the rubber and pics to an unoccupied base for an appeal it would be a balkbalk since an appeal is not a play.  If a runner was stealing that unoccupied base that would be considered for the purpose of making a play which would not be a balk.  

Yes appeals if done must be done before the next pitch or play or if the play resulted in the 3rd out of the inninginning it must be done before the defensive team leaves the field.

M Matt1310,000+ posts
Chrisumpire posted:
Matt13 posted:
Chrisumpire posted:

When it says "unless it is for the purpose of making a play" what play would this be considering in runners section of rulebook it says appeals for runners tagging up or missing the base are not considered making a play?  the only play it could be is stealing early, stealing before the pitcher GOES HOME because we're talking about a PIC OFF MOVE.  

If you are saying it's illegal for a pitcher to remain engaged with the rubber and throw to a base to make an appeal, you are incorrect. An appeal is a play--the exception you cite is for appeals not being allowed after intervening plays, in which appeals are not included.

YOUR incorrect buddy!  Read "appeals" in rulebook again, 5.09 (c) (4), or 7.10 in the old rule book, says appeals are not a play.  So if the pitcher stays in contact with the rubber and pics to an unoccupied base for an appeal it would be a balkbalk since an appeal is not a play.  If a runner was stealing that unoccupied base that would be considered for the purpose of making a play which would not be a balk.  

Yes appeals if done must be done before the next pitch or play or if the play resulted in the 3rd out of the inninginning it must be done before the defensive team leaves the field.

MLBUM 5.2(5): "The pitcher, of course, is allowed to throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making an appeal."

Do not fall into the trap of reading the rule book alone and without understanding the context of each rule.

Last edited by Matt13
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