Pitchers Hit by batted balls

+1 oldman - what I have been saying for years...outside is not outside anymore, it is middle to most who know they have to crowd the plate.  The art of pitching inside is being lost.

Absolutly Back foot. To expand on that during a 3 game series this year the opposing team was just staying outside all series against my son and he was just wearing them out. Two players on the opposing team who had played travel and JC with my son went to the pitching coach and said your pitching to his strength. Reply was the scouting report on him has him pulling most of the time! My son told me yes, most are going that way this year because they refuse to pitch inside anymore and you can forget about the inside and get as close to the plate as possible.

 

 

OMM - I purposely included the inner ankle and shin pad.  I will agree with you that the front side protection like elbow pad and upper arm pads are the biggest issue when you talk about the problem of hitter's armor enabling them (unnaturally) to crowd the plate at will.  So if only the front side pads were to be banned, I would be satisfied.

 

But the inner ankle/shin pad is where hitter's pads all began. You say this pad is "not for a pitched ball... it's for a ball that is fouled off".  Well guess what, that's a pitched ball.  It's the result of pitching inside... inner half strikes and near-strikes mostly... Good pitch movement getting in on the hands.  So hitters beat that pitch down off of their inner shin and ankle sometimes... and when that happens a good pitcher is going to hit that same spot the very next pitch every time. That's part of the drill in my book. 

 

To your question, I can't say for certain if I ever personally fouled a 90+ FB off of my shin but, I fouled plenty of mid to high 80s FBs off my shin and ankle. That's a special kind of pain for sure... even more fun if you already have a nice bruise there from an earlier AB or game. I remember a conversation I had years ago with a former MLB player about this. He was talking about how hitters were becoming fine with wearing pads... this was early 90s.  He recounted about how guys back in his day (70s to early 80s) would foul balls off their shins and ankles repeatedly at times... how over the course of the season it could sometimes get to the point where they could barely walk.  So when it got that bad, they would go get a soccer shin guard and sheepishly put it on under their sock, hoping no one would notice.  Anyway, his point at that time was how things were changing with guys starting to openly wear more and more pads.  Today, nobody even questions it.  And meanwhile pitchers haven't added a single piece of protection in the history of the game.  If the pitcher can stand out there without any protection, then the hitter can stand in without all the armor.

Oldman:  not to change this thread into a pitching philosophy discussion, however your point does go towards primarily pitching outside, which is always going to be the location that is driven up the middle towards the pitcher.

 

I have had this debate with both pitchers, and coaches.  They just don't like inside to pull hitters....why???  Most pull hitters take the inside pitch, and hit it a mile -- FOUL.  That sets up other pitches, but as you stated, if all you do is throw a steady diet of outside pitches, like to your son, they get crushed a lot of times.

 

My son was somewhat struggling with this with his HS coach early in the season.  My son throws inside... A LOT, and his coach wants very few (if any) inside pitches, and mostly outside.  Being a LHP, he works a riding four seamer into the hands of a RH hitter, and a very + wipe-out hard curve (hence screen name "Back foot slider").  Don't get me wrong, he has a very good two seamer that has good tail, and sink....but it is only effect because of his other two pitches.  Coach also wanted Jr to throw a back door slider on the outer plate to a RH hitter....you better guess right, and not hang it, those are also "up the middle" pitches.  Jr. knows he never throws a pitch that he can't throw with 100% confidence, and with an "F - you" behind it....so early on he shook off many signs, at first was not received well coming from a Frosh P on varsity.  Luckily success breeds little criticism, so his coach has backed off.

 

I am a fan of coming up with protection for the pitcher to wear, but  if you throw inside, you will also decrease the odds of the ball hit up the middle when throwing outside.

Pitchers need to spend time working on position specific reaction training. Though not a cure all by any stretch such training would improve their ability to defend themselves in this type of situation. Even partially getting a glove in the way would mitigate the injuries sustained. The Bryce Florie incident of 2000 is a good example. At the 3:20 mark you can see (view from behind Florie) in slow motion the ball coming at him and his glove coming up in a defensive move. Even in that incredibly short amount of time he was reacting. My point is I doubt he spent any time training to react to that specific play. Such training may have improved his reaction time.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfiJ2M-uq2g

Re: pitching inside.  Like others have mentioned, I've noticed that the majority of batters coming up to the plate wearing elbow protection.  I've also notice the amount of HBP is up significantly this year.  Our varsity pitching staff has tallied 34 so far this season, with my son accounting for 6 of them.  Batters are essentially standing on the plate and taking away the inside pitch. 

Like BFS, I disagree.  A 2" larger glove is quite a bit heavier and more cumbersome and would actually make P's instinctive glove hand reaction slower. 

 

I do have a related concern.  Many modern pitching mechanics have the arm-side leg rotating well beyond the plant leg at finish, leaving the P facing sideways to the hitter and his glove hand back toward 2b.  This leaves him even more vulnerable.  Combine that with the "armour" issues and pitching more away and we could see increases in these types of hard come-backers and resulting injuries.

Good additional points by Cabbage.  Larger glove is a logical idea, but not workable and not overly effective of the reasons stated.  As it is, you don't see many pitchers out there with a MIF glove.  Likewise, the suggestion earlier about improving defensive reaction time sort of misses the point. In many cases, pitchers who've been hit report "I never even saw it".  Pitchers react to contact largely on where they saw their location at contact. And changing mechanics is obviously problematic.  To pitch competitively, guys must commit fully to every pitch.  For Chapman, that means 120% stride differential and a somewhat violent follow through.  I'm guessing that has something to do with how he throws 105 at times and only 99 at others. Ultimately nothing will eliminate the inherent risk for pitchers.  That's why restoring the natural balance between pitcher and hitter is so important. I realize I'm a broken record on this, but every parent of a pitcher understands it well.  It doesn't get talked about enough, so harping on it here because I think a lot about it... Even when I'm trying not to.  And not just when it happens to McCarthy, Happ, CJ Wilson, and Chapman.  I would say we are seeing an increase over the past decade+.

cabbagedad:

 

You are correct, the trend today is VELOCITY!  That is attained with a very aggressive rotation around the posted lead leg, which most often leaves the pitchers somewhat sideways at follow through...exact position BFS Jr. was struck just above the ear. 

 

I think the days of finishes like Maddox are behind us for the most part, and as long as speed is King, you will see finishes like you describe.  Having said that, I still think there are hits, that regardless of your finish, you would be hard pressed to react to (read: Soylent's last post).....so although it could possibly help if P was in a better fielding position, I think the emphasis in speed will dictate the pitcher will likely be somewhat defenseless. 

https://twitter.com/Rachel__Ni...379374960640/photo/1

 

An interesting picture...

 

And the video of the play...

 

http://bleacherreport.com/arti...-status-and-recovery

The aggressive "Leg Rotation" bit my son earlier this year.  I was listening to the live internet/radio broadcast of him making his second appearance of the season in late February.  My heart stopped beating for a few seconds when the radio announcer stated that 247son had taken a line drive off his hip and the trainer was on the mound evaluating him.  The ball was actually drilled off the back (hamstring area) of his arm-side leg.  He stayed in the game and finished the inning, but had a knarly bruise & sore leg for a few days.  I had immediately texted him after the incident, asking him to call me after the game knowing that it would be at least an hour before he'd get back to me...I was relieved to hear that he was okay.

Line drives back through the box is one of the scariest things to deal with as a "Pitcher's Parent"...but with that said, I'm not a proponent of protective head gear, unless there is a comfort level that allows a pitcher to compete at the same level.

 

Got to disagree that high velocity guys should not be expected to follow thru in better shape. I will give a few examples. Nolan Ryan. high velocity good fielding position after. Tom Seaver -same. JR Richards same All were high velo guys..  Seems that in recent times not enough time is spent on finishing in a good fielding position. It seems who cares just throw as hard as you can. This is not to say that some sort of protective gear isn't feasible or required. And people who say, including guys on MLB network that high velo guys are not Greg Maddux throwing just are not right. Maddux WAS a hard thrower, when needed, but he fielded his position great.

Sorry to be so blunt, but that is completely inaccurate (or lack of understanding) of not only that incident but getting hit in the face period.  That particular incident has been studied by scientists and experts on human reaction time extensively and documented in scientific literature.  Bryce Florie had no chance, whatsoever, to react in time based on physics and humanly possible reactions.

 

No improvement training is enough or is it even possible to have fixed that incident and most these types of incidents in general.

 

I know more about that incident and this issue in particular than most everyone (if not everyone) on this site.  Firsthand knowledge and a TON of research on the topic.  Sorry, but that is the truth.

 

End of that story.

 ...pitchers who've been hit report "I never even saw it".

 

Not true.  Certainly not in all cases.  Our older son was hit in the face in a well-documented game in the Cape Cod League.  He reported to me that he saw the ball the whole way.  Every inch.

 

Q (me):  Why didn't you try to stop it?

 

A (son): I did Dad.

 

Eye witness accounts showed that his glove (like Chapman's) was also rising up to try and stop the ball - just never got there - just like Chapman's.

 

Virtually impossible to stop if the ball is hit on the button.  Not better mechanics, not better training, not a bigger glove.  Almost…impossible…even perhaps impossible.

 

Period.

How about this "rule" - if you are a pitcher and you want to wear protective headgear - wear it.

 

If you dont want to wear it - dont wear it.

 

How difficult heh?

 

Instead - we get endless debates that go round and round - once again waiting for someone to dictate what we must or must not do.

 

Then we start all over again debating the dictate.

 

What a massive waste of time IMO.

 

 

Can you give me some resources backing this up?

 

Are you saying that human reaction times cannot be improved?

 

“Doctors and scientists said that breaking the four-minute mile was impossible, that one would die in the attempt. Thus, when I got up from the track after collapsing at the finish line, I figured I was dead.” Roger Bannister

 

The current world record for the mile is 3:43.13

 

I see no value on placing limits on the human potential. It serves no purpose (except perhaps to stroke the ego) and hinders improvement.

Cannot be improved enough to make a difference.

 

Ball is over halfway back to the pitcher before his brain even begins to fire signals that danger is on the way and it is not possible to move limbs or duck with the remaining time to make a difference.

Can you give me some references to study on the subject?

 

What kind of numbers are you talking about?

Well, since you made your assertion first, you should provide a reference as to how more training would help (enough)?  But I'll go first since you asked.

 

Watch the whole thing (only 5 or 6 minutes), its but one source on the topic….  (I don't plan to go back and forth on this, so you may get the last word).

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfiJ2M-uq2g

Couple of comments.

 

first for those saying that gear can be worn if available, otherwise don't complain.  Players, like most humans are slow to accepting change.  While I'm the epitome of libertarianism, I think mandated protection will get everyone on board.... it is time.

 

also those thinking a better fielding position will avoid the hits similar to Chapman, are wrong.  That bullet would have had to catch his glove.....no reaction of the pitcher is going to save him on that...I'd like to see the batted ball speed on that one, but my guess is well over 100MPH, Seaver, Maddux, et. al., would have been laidout.

Simple question; Would you rather be drilled in the face with a softball from 43' away or a baseball from 60'6" away? Answer better be neither... That's my point. Anyone who tries and downgrades the impact of a softball breaking a pitchers face obviously does not know the consequences of pitching in a softball game.

Not buying or selling this argument but local D1 head coach says he believes the real culprit is becoming:  BBCOR bats.

 

Says that they can't really find guys that can hit with as much power as they did in the past so they preach and preach take everything back up the middle.  Swears he has had more pitchers hit in the last few years than he can ever remember because this has become the approach.

 

 

How about Bob Gibson for a hard thrower who finished in poor fielding position? It cost him a good portion of the season in 1967.

Hitting the ball up the middle is a new approach because of BBCOR? Come on now. That is possibly the silliest thing I've heard in a long time.

I played in the era of the hottest bats and the approach of taking the ball up the middle was taught then. It is the proper approach to hitting as it gives you more field to work with.

To me it sounds like a college coach that wants the old bats back to improve their offensive output.

Are you seriously trying to get sensitive and puff your chest out at me on a message board? You don't have to list your resume with me buddy! I'm not the one... I made a blanket statement in response to your "core of a softball less dense" yadda yadda. So, answer the question; Would you rather be drilled in the face with a softball from 43' away or a baseball from 60'6" away? What a joke!

I don't think whether getting hit by a softball or baseball is in the spirit of the original post.

 

Both are bad.  

 

Let's move on.... 

 

 

"Pitchers getting hit by batted balls." That's the topic.

 

Conversation has been what type of equipment could combat injuries. I posted pic of softball pitchers have face masks available and maybe baseball can look into a similar device.

 

Sorry to respectfully disagree, but comments are exactly what the original post is about.

Photos do show Gibson looking off balance when that line drive hit him, but a rocket to the ankle of the landing leg is pretty hard for any pitcher to defend against when it gets there before his throwing arm follows through and recoils.  

 

BTW, the line drive was hit by Roberto Clemente.

 

 

And I made the comment that women pitch standing up and finish standing up. Males will end at diff position. I was asking how heavy that thing was due to fact it could strain neck muscles if it's heavy and guys end pitch in bent over lower position. Both pitchers end in diff positions so their reaction times to protect face r diff. 

Ounces, not pounds. Not certain of precise weight, but I have held one and it is ultra-light. The adjustment would be something covering the face more than the weight. That's why I said I feel it needs to start in little league and graduate with that group each year.

RJM true, thought of Gibson when I wrote post. My main point being that this has become an overlooked part of the pitching process that in my opinion could in some small way help. Backfoot not my point that anything would have hepled on a rocket that hit Chapman but on others. It is the assumption that just because you throw hard that you should not in the time honored phrase, come to a fielding position after delivering the ball. Gibson was Gibson, but there was no more maximum effort delivery then Sandy Koufax, who finished in a fielding position. And Chapman doesn't throw that much harder.

 

Getting hit with either baseball or softball is damaging.

 

However, I would rather take my chances with the softball.  The softball is heavier but not as hard. More importantly we see baseballs coming off the bat at over 100 mph at times.  Usually those coming off the bat at the highest speeds are hit squarely right up the middle (at the pitcher).

 

A first base coach was killed by a batted baseball.  Caused them to make a rule that base coaches had to wear a helmet.

 

So the question would be... What is the most damaging?  Getting hit by the larger softball at a shorter distance, or getting hit by the harder object traveling at a much greater speed at a longer distance?

 

This might require our physics experts that post here.

Get over yourself and move on huh? Show me EXACTLY where these personal insults occurred. Let me be more specific-- "insults" I generated towards you. Not the obvious ones you threw my way from out of the blue. But then again, I must remember that I am an "absurd person", "ridiculous poster" and "I am a joke". Don't worry, I'll let the "horse's behind" comment go because it was similar to sticking up the ring finger to someone as opposed to the middle finger. Remember that "ignore" comment you made? Let's go ahead and utilize that... 

This might work.

 

KE (kinetic energy) = 1/2mv^2

m = mass

v = velocity

mass of baseball = 5 1/4 oz.(145 gr)

mass of softball (12") = about 6.62oz. (183 gr)

 

Assuming velocity is the same at impact the softball, weighing more, would impart roughly 1.26 times the energy. A mitigating factor here would be that the softball imparts that energy over a slightly larger surface area due to the larger ball diameter so energy exerted per square inch might come out to be nearly equal.

 

 

 

 

I'm always surprised there are not more injuries in softball due to the closeness of the field. I'm worried just as much before/during a softball game as I am a baseball game. And I've seen plenty of batted balls where I cringe, but then by the time the ball makes it to the fielder (pitcher, 3rd base, etc) it seems almost as if that ball had died. It's really interesting IMO. 

It may also depend on how the infield is conditioned. Some fields play like a beach while others play like a parking lot. Hitters prefer parking lot, fielders prefer beach. LOL

I'm talking line drives even... They seem like they die too. I get to watch a lot of baseball and a lot of softball each spring. And I mix it in with plenty of girls soccer too... 

Based on memory, I recall line drives staying hot until around the grass line, if not a few feet more. However, they do lose steam a lot sooner than baseballs do.