Pitching at the next level

"IFD,
Pitcher needs to establish ownership of the zone so he can have that command. Top college hitters from what I have seen, who crowd the plate won't back off unless you make them (a good example is Matt Weiters, my son said he was tough in trying to get him off the plate). Then the pitcher has all sides of the plate to work. So not sure why you say pitching inside doesn't make a difference in college,"]

TPM, I said pitching inside made a difference in college, but not a huge difference. I specifically said why...metal bats. Pitching inside makes a huge difference with wood bats but in college, the inside pitches that break wood end up often times being bloop singles to good college hitters.
Thanks for the efforts to educate me. But my comment was very different than your quote about it.
I was not commenting on guys like Andrew Miller or those who are the elite prospects.
I was attempting to comment on the players that I feel are getting lost on this site. Not the elite player that everyone appreciates, but the other 95% who have a lot of ability and plenty of room for improvement. I can relate to the struggles and improvement of that group and thought I would post on those skills I feel can make a difference for them.

I think there are complex forces involved sometimes and some players experience these at different times of their development. A top level recruit or draftee is going to experience a different type of pressure than someone who has to earn a name for themselves and claw their way up. Having to perform or sit is the ultimate pressure imho.

It is easy to be confident when all you have ever experienced is success. The Indians had a young man who made it to the majors last year and all he had previously was success. He struggled mightly this spring and found himself back in the minors. When asked, Jeremy Sowers said the hardest thing he needed to do was re-gain his confidence. Learn to trust his stuff if you will.

When it is going your way, it is easy to trust your stuff. When the hitters adapt to your stuff, then true pressure is experienced. It is not easy to instantaneously right the ship. Learning how to adjust may be the biggest factor in deciding who succeeds and who fails when players can no longer get by with superior athletic ability alone.

IFD,
I understood why you made the comment regarding the bats.

I was trying to point out why I thought pitching inside in college made a difference.

My second paragraph was directed to anyone regarding the discussion.

Maybe Andrew Miller was not a good example. I'll go with another one, 4th round pick this year, Daniel Moskos. Daniel struggled his first year as a LHP with limited innings. After pitching well at the cape, he had a good year finding a role as a closer and played for Team USA last summer. He would be a good example of what I was talking about.

My player pitched against some of those players in HS PG sites as examples and did well. But that doesn't mean he found no difference when he went to college. You do meet up with many of the same players you pitched against in HS, but IMO, I found the game to be played differently than the HS game.

The original question was about pitching at the next level and the challenges they faced. IMO, all players face challeges whether they are the few elite prospects or the other 95% IFD refers to, whether they played in every PG wood bat or showcase or not. I have yet to meet anyone, who claims that they have seen no difference in the difference between HS and college pitching.

CD brings up a good point. IMO, most players that become successful, usually do not find success easily at first. Adjustment is the key, and I think all agreee on that point.


JMO.

quote:

4th round pick this year, Daniel Moskos

FWIW - Daniel was taken with the 4th overall pick in the draft this year and not in the 4th round. He was actually taken two slots higher than Andrew Miller was the previous year.

quote:

Learning how to adjust may be the biggest factor in deciding who succeeds and who fails when players can no longer get by with superior athletic ability alone.

Dan, as we've discussed in the OH/KY/PA/WV forum before, so much about college for pitchers and position players is about adjustments. This is true for the kids that go on to pro ball... out of HS or college. Son's HS teammate went as a first round pick and is an excellent pitcher. However, everytime he's moved up, he's struggled at first adjusting to a higher level of play and a different game. Just to be expected I believe. If a kid can't make the adjustment... physically or mentally... then obviously he won't be successful.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

4th round pick this year, Daniel Moskos

FWIW - Daniel was taken with the 4th overall pick in the draft this year and not in the 4th round. He was actually taken two slots higher than Andrew Miller was the previous year.

CD,
Thanks, got to learn to read over my posts!

Love sounds like he has the right attitude as well.

I have been known to pull a few legs but I mean what I have said. My son 's 1st inning was in Florida against Florida State. They were ranked #1 in the nation at the time. He was wearing a glove that had the Canadian flag stiched into it and the FS players were openly making fun of it. He pitched the 9th striking out 2 ,1BB and a ground out. If he wasn't prepared he would have not done well.
He has pitched against guy who have been in the Minors for 3 years at 17 yo. He pitched aginst a team that had several minor league players and college players and in that game he was still 16 and struck out 5 in 2 innings. Including a guy who just gtot drafted last year. Why after doing several things like that who he find it a big transition ? He threw against Weglarz who was drafter 94th overall and Wegs hit 23 HRs in A ball and hasw never got a hit of my son the year he was drafted infront of approx 10 crosscheckers. He faced a guy named Waltenbury who was drafted last year from the Ontario Blue Jays 4 times and walked him once,struck him out and grounded him out twice. Waltenbury hit for the cycle against a D1 college that summer. In a Royals camp he faced 6 batters in 2 innings striking out 3 and GO 3. He was the only pitcher to not allow a BR. The hitters were all college players from the US and a couple guys who were just realeased from the minors. One was drafted in 2000 and went all the way to AAA. He was a slugger but lacked defesive skills.
Anyone who has faced top competition should have a strong belief in what he can do. Does he have bad games ? yes he does. But he gets over it. To me one of his biggest asets is his mental ability to handel pressure and in fact relish in it. There was no adjustment in terms of skill or mental toughness. He had to get used to waiting his turn, pitching in relief and not being the guy the coach turned to.

One thing I have noticed is that the 90 mph guys usually have the most adjustments to make in regard to pitching.

One thing I would add is that if you are looking at HS to get you to college interms of skill and knowlege you will probably find it hard er than those who have played Elite travel ball.
One poster mentioned that you will face a team of hiiters you had trouble with in HS. Well I look at it that they will face the pitcher they hated to face.

BHD, I am quoting your posts, and this will seem like I am singling you out, but I am not.

quote:

He has pitched against guy

(one)

quote:

He pitched aginst a team

quote:

Including a guy who just got drafted last year

quote:

He threw against Weglarz

quote:

He faced a guy named Waltenbury who was drafted last year from the Ontario Blue Jays 4 times

quote:

In a Royals camp

quote:

One was drafted in 2000

Those are all important indicators of potential success at the next level whether it is college or professional baseball.

quote:

Why after doing several things like that who he find it a big transition ?

Here's why.

Until you face every batter on a college team in an entire season you won't appreciate the fact that, from a competition point of view, that many of the players at the next level were not only the top player on their high school team, but likely a top player in their entire high school baseball district.

Until you face every batter on a professional team in an entire season you won't appreciate the fact that, from a competition point of view, that many of the players at the next level were not only the top player on their college team, but likely a top player in their entire college baseball conference.

I've been very fortunate to observe both now, and even with our friend bbscout's respected opinion and advice, I did not fully understand how staggering the changes are at the next levels.

It has been quite fascinating to observe, though......................

FO,
That was a very good post and very true!

quote:

Originally posted by lafmom:
Dan, as we've discussed in the OH/KY/PA/WV forum before........

If I need the truth, knowledge, a shoulder to lean on, expert advice, or an American Idol critique; thats the place I go.

FO If your trying to correct my typing forget it I am a lost cause.

Unfortunately my son has never been given the chance to do all the things you indicate. He has pitched 2 seasons of college ball and that is why I commented about being pr5epared before you arrive at college. He did get to pitch against minor league hitters and we understand the odds of going Pro. Having been personally invoved with a minor league team for about 10 years and being around ML players we are aware of the **** shoot especially for an 85 mph LHP.
My son found it an easy move to college ball. I was very pleased with his 2nd year up to exam time and he did get to face several good teams. He had a 3.1 ERA (2nd lowest of 17 pitchers) and the lowest OBA with only 3 extra base hits over 33 innings. He threw 2 innings after exams. 1 was a 3 up 3 down against college of Charleston and then the 2nd was a 4 run inning giving up 3 extra base hits. Messed his ERA a bit but thats BB. Last year they had no pitching coach per say and that didn't bother him. He has been taught well, knows what to do and was properly prepared for college. Some of the names I gave were quality hitters. My son pitched to Wegs infront of the cross checkers and threw about 60 pitches he fouled 2 off and the rest he missed.
I really don't get all the fuss about the next level stuff. Every game is a challenge.
Our HS ball is not the be all and never was a big deal. My son pitched against 1 US HS . They were State champs that year. The Jesuit HS from New Orleans. He was 16 and was not supposed to pitch against them since we had a tourney in a couple days. Our team was down 7-0 after the 1st inning so the coach got mad and sent him in . He gave up 1 run in the 2nd inning and then shut them down cold. We came back and ended up losing 8-7. 3 of the guys went to LSU that year from The Jesuit team.

Many of the great players that went through the Jays organization went through my home town. We got to know most of them very well.

A good sinker will add an entirely new dimension to his arsenal even at 85 from the left side.

Speed may get folks noticed, but location and efective pitching will get you places.

.

BHD,
It is wonderful to be proud of what your son has done in the past. It is a source of great pride and he obviously performed well.
Unfortunately, playing time in baseball at the college and professional level is not based on what you did before.
In 2005, our son was selected to play in the Midwest League All Star game. His selection was a topic of discussion because he was not even a starter on his own team until about 5 weeks into the season when he got a chance and the coach told everyone he performed so well he couldn't be taken out the lineup.
After that MWL game when he again played well, I told him how amazing it was what he had done during those first 2 1/2 months of the season. I will never forget his comments to me.
He looked me straight in the eye and said "Dad, beginning tomorrow, none of that matters. If I don't perform and continue to improve the next 70 games, no one will care I hit .310 in the first 70 games."
That is life in college and professional ball. My memory of what he did in the MWL is a cherished one. It means absolutely nothing to those who evaluate whether our son's ready and who set the line-ups and determine prospects.

He is an off speed pitcher and has been since 10 yo. He has been working on his FB since all the scouts have told him they want him in the high 80s. He has had lots of interest since he was 16 but they all want velocity in the high 80s.

BHD,
I don't get your examples. You post bits and pieces to prove your point.

IFD's son makes a great statement, it's not what you did yesterday that counts, that's only what got you there, now you have to move forward or no one cares. That statement is for every level that one plays at.

What does players from the Jays organization have to do with this discussion?

However, your example of a #1 team making fun of your son's glove is a good example that maybe there is no difference regarding some things, that was HSish, IMO.

quote:

no one will care I hit .310 in the first 70 games."
That is life in college and professional ball. My memory of what he did in the MWL is a cherished one. It means absolutely nothing to those who evaluate whether our son's ready and who set the line-ups and determine prospects.

No one agrees more with this than I do. He was home for 10 days in the summer and when he left he said he was going to be starting more this year and would have to adjust to that mind set. Personally I am concerned that he will not be ready because he had a terrible summer due to a separtion from his Southern girl friend. He lost 10lbs and is out of shape for the 1st time in his BB life.

My whole point to love is that before you head to college prove to youself that you belong at the next level before you get there. My son's success is the froundation of that belief.You build the foundation by playing at levels that challenge you to play at that level. You can'y expect to walk out and play at thye college/pro level if you have not done the ground work before you get there. We live in an area that is full of opportunity for BB players. We have had 3 or 4 minor leagus teams within 15 mins from my home. They have all folded but we were lucky to have gotten some wonderful training and experience while they were here.
i just got a call from a guy the other day who managed the baby Jays teamand he is in the Independant League organization and wants my son to call when he is finished college. he has had ML scouts grab him as he walked off the mound and told him he has ML presence on the mound. You don't get this unless you are taught how to act. As a young pitcher I always told him to act like he was winning even if he was getting blasted. Never stretch your arm of act like they are getting to you.

quote:

What does players from the Jays organization have to do with this discussion?

I don't know if I answered this but everything you do is a building block both mentally and skill wise.

The Jays point is that we have been exposeed to the next level after college and for some HS. I have talked/watched and learned from these guys. My son has done bull pens with Ron Davis who invited him to come out and work out with him. Ron saw him throwing in the outfield in a game and wanted to work with him .He was a P coach for a pro team out of Welland. that is an example of the training he received.
To say yesterday means nothing isn't totally true except in that you have to go out in do it again and again.

BHD,
If a player is asked to join a college team, or drafted, it means he has proved that he can play at the next level. It's naturally understood that you have to lay that foundation for those opportunities. Playing against good competition and doing well proves that you earn the opportunity, that doesn' always translate into success at the next level.

Once you get there you have to adjust to the differences in the game, your situation, your surroundings, your schedule, your conference, etc. There is so much to learn as you move forward. The player who stops learning, lives with his past accomplishments, good or bad, doesn't succeed. In HS a player out of shape is still able to play on that level, at the next level you can't get away with that. Same with bringing one's personal issues to the game, struggling in school, etc.

So stating there is no difference is not a true statment, IMO, there is a difference, regardless of if it is personal, physical or just learning new things to improve one's game, there is a difference at every level. JMO.

I think you misunderstand. I never imply that you stop learning.
A pitcher has been taught well has all the tools and he also knows that he has to learn I see this as an ongoing progression.
A pitcher should know what good mechanics are, a good selection of effective pitches and his defensive role. He should under stand where he goes when a ball is put in play and his cuts.
A well trained pitcher know were to go wihout having to think about it. He reacts to each situation almost automatically.
Many times I wantch pitchers who don't have a clue and are often late or still standing on the mound. If you have to learn this stuff when you arrive at college I would think you have some catching up to do.
At college the pitcher has to adapt if you like to each type of hitter but he should have been doing that for a couple years at least before college.
to me you should have these skills before you arrive on campus. Most coaches seem to be looking for guys that can contribute right away and need little baby sitting. I have alway believed that P coaches are there to keep you on track. Look for the things that creep in to put off a pitchers effectiveness.
One of my friends who is in the Magors told his on minor coach to stop messing with his delivery.Had a bit of an altecation with him. The guy let him go back to what he was doing and was moved up quickly after that.

The resonal stuff you are absolutely right. This caught us by surprise and we have never had to deal with this before. It could be a career killer. We have talked to them both. She understands but he dosen't. She agrees with us and points out how well he did when they started dating which was at the beginning of ball season in Feb. I told her I am personally thrilled with her and am happy that they met but he has to devote himself to BB and accademics. I made sure she knew how much my wife and I liked her. I am confident it is a 1 off.

Last Winter I listened to my son speak at a LL fund raiser and he was asked what knowledge/skills a pitcher needs to bring to the HS and College levels. He said.

quote:

No one can say that this is what you should know when you get to this level or this level, because like "baseball tools", knowledge and skills differs from case to case and learned as situations arise. A pitcher needs to know himself, his strengths, weaknesses, set goals that even he thinks are unattainable, and then fight like hell to reach them. If you do that you will not be cheated, if things go your way you will take those next steps, and if you don't you will have the time of your life trying.

I think I remember that answer almost word for word because it was then I figured out what really made him tick, what put him in the position he is in today, and likewise I think any player who does succeed has that same make-up.

Today we just back from my son's official visit. For those that don't know, he has verbally committed to a Pac-10 school. I read this thread in the hotel room and so the next day I asked my son's host, a sophomore pitcher who threw considerable innings as a frosh, "What was the hardest thing in making the transition from high school to college". Without hesitation, he told me the mental aspect was the hardest. The intensity, the speed of the game, the expectations of the coaches, the time pressure in playing ball and going to school, it all requires a lot of mental toughness.

Can you handle failure?

Now a funny story. He also said his pitching coach told him that velocity was only #4 on a list which includes location, change of speeds, and movement. Later, at breakfast with the coach, he told the coach he told my son this.. the coach looked at him and asked,

"Do you know why velocity is only #4 on the list?" to which the host shrugged his shoulders.

"Because by the time you get here you are already expected to have it."

Not to be rude or anything, but some of you get carried away with one upping eachother at times. I posed a question in this thread that was totally ignored while some of you who know eachother well, argued....I do enjoy reading your posts, but don't forget some of us would like to get your opionions because of your extensive knowledge and experience.
I guess I will just stick to reading,perhaps being a newbie, my posts are not worthy maybe it's because I'm from California

And Bum,
just like real estate - location, location, location

quote:

My son never even had a paid pitching coach or lesson, ever. He is currently a scholarship player at D1 in California, RHP, good size, smart, and very naturally athletic....I wonder if he will make it, this will be his first experience with a full time pitching coach, he is very coachable as he knows he has everything to learn at this point. He has been at it a couple of weeks, and is happy and positive so far, although tired.
His coaches have told him he will be playing in a summer league out of state next summer - does that mean he is likely to redshirt this season?
Don't know much about baseball, but am willing to learn if you all are up for educating me.

Summer ball is played after the season, and they usually assign the players early in the fall.
So the summer college league will set there roster and find host family's for the players invited.

It does not mean your son will redshirt.
Thats a totally differant subject.

PS. don't feel slighted, It's just the way it rolls on the HSBBW.
Also welcome.
EH
EH

iheartbb.. all new HSBBW members are expected to be scolded, dumped on, ridiculed and mocked. That's the good news. The bad news is we haven't done that yet.

iheartbb, why don't you ask again?

iheartbb,

Your son will be going to one of the many excellent summer college baseball leagues, this has nothing to do with how much or how little he pitches at his school and I doubt seriously a red shirt will even be discussed unless your son is injured.The summer leagues will allow him to pitch innings in a great enviornment with great host families and enthusiastic crowds.Young players benefit greatly in these leagues and you rarely hear of bad expeiences from them.

catchersdad

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
Not to be rude or anything, but some of you get carried away with one upping eachother at times. I posed a question in this thread that was totally ignored while some of you who know eachother well, argued....I do enjoy reading your posts, but don't forget some of us would like to get your opionions because of your extensive knowledge and experience.
I guess I will just stick to reading,perhaps being a newbie, my posts are not worthy maybe it's because I'm from California

iheartbb,
No one tries to 1-up the other, one poster will just try to to get the others to conform to their way of thinking. You have to remember you're dealing with parents of athletic kids who have been building their own "recipe for success" for years. If you are expecting a canned answer, you're not going to find it here. Actually, looking at your "honest/upfront" post you aren't far from being one of "us" , you just don't know it yet.

btw- Don't get too down on your CA home....................you can always move anywhere East and live happily ever after

quote:

Originally posted by lovethegame25:
For those who have sons that have gone on to pitch in college & the pros, I was curious to know what was the biggest challenge they faced on the mound when they reached the next level. I know that being a great pitcher in high school does not mean you will be a great pitcher in college and beyond. Just wondering what obstacles some might have experienced that might help might son when he goes off to play college ball next year.

This was an excellent set of questions to start off this thread...and many fine answers provided...and it even prompted iheartbb's great query...

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
My son never even had a paid pitching coach or lesson, ever. He is currently a scholarship player at D1 in California, RHP, good size, smart, and very naturally athletic....I wonder if he will make it, this will be his first experience with a full time pitching coach, he is very coachable as he knows he has everything to learn at this point. He has been at it a couple of weeks, and is happy and positive so far, although tired.
His coaches have told him he will be playing in a summer league out of state next summer - does that mean he is likely to redshirt this season?
Don't know much about baseball, but am willing to learn if you all are up for educating me.

If anyone can contribute more to iheartbb please do...canned or otherwise. It appears that iheartbb's son is in a position unlike most pichers at that level...he has pure raw talent that has not been nurtured, tamed, or exploited.

I'm hoping that iheartbb will recieve some more good answers and then feel compelled to keep us updated on the son's progress.

Welcome aboard the HSBBW...and thanks for the flower...

Summer league has as mentioned nothing to do with RS. If you check some out they will have all levels of players.
If you are looking for a league to get development I would investigate that as well and also make sure it is a fit just like college. 1 player had a 9:00 curfew and was not thrilled. It is important that you investigate where he is going.

iheartbb,
Sometimes when a discussion is going on about a particular question, etc, other questions get overlooked.

I think that most of us go above and beyond trying to help most newbies feel welcome. If you felt slighted, I do apologize.

My suggestion, for all new posters, so that you do not feel slighted, is to start a new discussion going under the proper heading.

Excellent observation and advice TPM.

I thought there was some pretty good replies, that gave good information, to the original question here.

quote:

By lovethegame25 - For those who have sons that have gone on to pitch in college & the pros, I was curious to know what was the biggest challenge they faced on the mound when they reached the next level. I know that being a great pitcher in high school does not mean you will be a great pitcher in college and beyond. Just wondering what obstacles some might have experienced that might help might son when he goes off to play college ball next year.

PGStaff, I agree 100%, had my son read over this thread last night. I think the mental challenge will be the biggest thing he will need to deal with and he is ready for the challenge. Thanks for everyone's input.

Okay, my bad, maybe one upping was a poor choice of words, more like manic arguing at times.
Thank you to all who responded. Good idea about starting a new topic TPM (I'm already learning!)

I thought my questions were in line with "Pitching at the next level".