Pitching Injuries

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
My son has had chips removed in his elbow (high school), and shoulder surgery (pro ball) & is done.

Our area has many college and pro pitchers. I know of one that has not has surgery. Many have had Tommy John. It seems that most pitchers I've seen have had some surgery.

Just wondering, how many have college or pro pitchers that did not have surgery?

I am definetly convinced that 97% of pitchers will have some type of surgery, at some point in their career. Any type of surgery sets you back, so when it occurs (timing) can be key to the pitchers success or failure.
I am not sure that most pitchers fully recover from shoulder surgery.

I think my 13 year old can be as good as the older son, maybe better.

I don't think it is worth the chance of injury. Casey wakes up in the middle of the night with his shoulder hurting and is in pretty constant pain.

I don't care how good mechanics are, when your tissues result in a release and hand speed of 90+ mph, the weakest link in the chain will give at some point.

All the jobe bands, conditioning and practice in mechanics will not prevent it. It doesn't matter if you listen to Wolforth, House, Marshall or Mills.

TPM, I appreciate your comments.

I asked a varsity high school coach that I know (well, and like) the following. What if a parent comes in and tells you that you can have my son for 5 innings per week if it is the same game and one inning per game if it is multiple games and the maximum pitch count is 80. He told me he would not take the kid. I told him that is why I will not have my kid play high school ball. The stupidity is getting unbelievable out there. Kids throwing in multiple games in weekend tournaments at the age of 10 - 14 so that someone can win a medal. High School coaches that maim kids so they can win. (I'm not talking about all high school coaches. Many of you on this board are great coaches.)

The number of coaches who say the pitch counts and innings should be based upon the individual. Do you know how stupid that is? NO one breaks down until they break down. Smart PARENTS will keep a pitch count, inning count, because many coaches won't.

It's a shame how much I know about baseball now, & what I am concluding is it is not worth the maiming for life. Just don't think the risk/reward makes any sense.

My 13 year old is probably going to bowl and play golf. This will probably be his last season of baseball & will forego playing high school baseball.

I'm posting this so some parents will wake up. We have a kid in our area who is one of the best 13 year old pitchers in the country. I have talked to his dad about this topic, who will not listen, and the kid has had three growth plate fractures. His dad wanted to win tournaments. He is not alone. I'm going to post a suggestion to help minimize injury.

quote:

What if a parent comes in and tells you that you can have my son for 5 innings per week if it is the same game and one inning per game if it is multiple games and the maximum pitch count is 80. He told me he would not take the kid. I told him that is why I will not have my kid play high school ball. The stupidity is getting unbelievable out there

I wouldn't take the kid either. Because the parent is an ###. Is that parent going to next tell the coach that the player can only bat 3rd in the line up? The player can only wear #__?

Where does it end?

------------
A general pitch count number is worthless. I may be able to go out and throw 80 pitches, but your son may only be able to throw 50. If the "pitch count" is a set 80, your son's arm is going to be long-shot and hurting. Mine would not. THAT is why it is an individual thing.

You are not reading correctly.

I would never, ever tell a coach how to coach. I would only tell them what affects the health of my kid. If they cannot respect that, I would have nothing against the coach, he just wouldn't have my kid.

I do not talk to my kids during games (unless I am coaching) nor would I EVER tell a coach he should play my or any other kid at any position or how a batter order should be made up.

Please don't read anything more into what I am saying. I am posting this so maybe some kids won't get hurt that may otherwise will.

I RECAlL COACHING AN 11/12 year old team in a tournament--we were playing by LL rules---we get to thursdays game and we need a win to get saturdays semi sand hopefully final game---both our aces are ready to go but if they go three innings or more they cannot pitch on saturday---in addition the temperatures in the low 100's--- we ecide to throw our # 3 arm on thursday-we get to the 5th inning
and we bring in one of the aces in a tie game---notonly does he give ustwo shutout innings but he gets the hit to win the game---
two things here--now we have aces avaiable for saturdays final round---to this day I am convinced
that the kids bat is tired in the late inninngs if he had pitched and he does not get the winning hit--now for saturdays final round we have our aces avaiable for two and three innings each---we win the title with a two pitcher shutout--wouldyou believe that parents came to us and criticized us for how we used our pitchers----we won without burying the kid arms and we get blasted----that is the thinking you have to deal with

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
You are not reading correctly.

I would never, ever tell a coach how to coach. I would only tell them what affects the health of my kid. If they cannot respect that, I would have nothing against the coach, he just wouldn't have my kid.

I do not talk to my kids during games (unless I am coaching) nor would I EVER tell a coach he should play my or any other kid at any position or how a batter order should be made up.

Please don't read anything more into what I am saying. I am posting this so maybe some kids won't get hurt that may otherwise will.

When I read what you posted, I understood what you meant immediately. But then I have a mindset that a kid’s health should always be the highest priority. I’m always amazed at how fearful some coaches are that they’re conceding something necessary, when all the parent is doing, is exercising his responsibility. It’d be different if the coach was feeding the kid, paying the Dr. bills, and hauling to the emergency room in the middle of the night when the kid has so much pain he can’t sleep.

Why is it that so many people can’t understand the difference between authority and responsibility. I didn’t see anything you said as infringing on the coach’s authority, but he wants to infringe on a parent’s responsibility.

GNATS


with your attitude your son would never play for me regardless of his talent

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
GNATS
with your attitude your son would never play for me regardless of his talent

And that would be perfectly OK with me. But what is it that you’re so afraid of? Somebody stealing your job? Your looking like some kind of unmanly coach who’d be embarrassed if the other coaches found out?

I’m serious, what is the big problem with working with a parent rather than puffing out your chest and saying “My way or the highway?” What if a parent came to you and said his kid had asthma, was an epileptic, or had some other physical condition that had to be considered? Would you tell that parent to pound sand because his kid wasn’t going to play on your team, or would you try to work with him?

Frankly, I don’t see what the big deal is. You assume that every HS coach is beyond reproach in any way, shape, or form, and knows far better than a parent how to raise a child. Now I know the bad ones or ignorant ones are very few and far between, but how do I know you aren’t one of them?

quote:

But then I have a mindset that a kid’s health should always be the highest priority.

Yeah, you're right. I don't have that mindset at all.


If I were to tell a coach that kid A can only pitch on days 1,3,6 and for x number of pitches, he better listen or he may find himself out of a job. If a parent tells a coach that kid A can only pitch on days 1,3,6 and for x number of pitches, that coach may show the parent and kid A the door and let somebody else deal with that headache.

It becomes a matter of who says it and how it's said. If that comment comes from a healthcare provider such as myself, that coach is much more likely to listen and understand than if the player's parent tells him so.

Baseballpapa,

You have brought up a point that merits discussion, I am hoping that it does not turn into one of those coach/parent, who is right and who is wrong (blah, blah) type of topic.

I am with you, if I don't like how the coach uses kids, then mine won't play because it
s not worth it. But until my player leaves home, I am going to make sure that I pay attention to every pitch, every inning, and how many tournaments and camps and showcases that are not necessary. And I am going to make sure that he has other interests in his life as a youngster than just one sport. And if we (either parent) sees something that would compromise the health of son later on, you know we are going to speak up.

That is why the college choice was so difficult (at that time) for son, the wrong guy can make or break a pitcher, so I hear what you are saying. Thanks goodness things have improved at the college level.

IMO, Parents are of the mindset that when it gets broken it can easily be fixed, but the bottom line is that even operations don't "cure" all injuries (as in the case you are using Casey). In 2008 after son had his first surgery, sitting next to a ML pitcher in rehab, he (the pitcher) asked him if it was his first, and he chuckled a bit after son said yes.

I have been called out for stating that players should wait as long as they can to take the mound, mine began at 8 but I wish it had been more like 14, 15. He also was a darn good postion player, as well as a hitter, pitching is just real tough.

FWIW, sons injuries have been physiologically related and most likely never surfaced if he never pitched. The human body has a lot of stuff going on inside and it's not perfect. So I hear ya when you say it doesn't matter how good the mechanics are, how much you train or condition, when you throw 90+ something, at some point, there is going to be a breakdown.

But the thought of injury shouldn't stop you from not allowing your younger one the opportunity to play, but I understand where you are coming from. In sons case, the reward has outweighed the risk, I am sure he would do it all over again if you asked!

I hope that Casey is doing well, it seems like just yesterday that we watched him pitch.

TPM

Casey is a joy to me.

I feel like I failed him by watching him throw too much at every level. He was so competitive he would not let any of his coaches, including me know he was hurting. I was as guilty as any other coach in over-pitching him.

He went 4 and 1 in eight days in high school. I just watched. According to some posters here, I should not have said anything to the coach? By the way, I love his high school coach, not just as a coach, but as a man.

I can give more details how I messed him up, but really want the high school baseball web family here to not duplicate my mistakes.

TPM, I told him who you are and who your son is. He told me that Clemson's pitching coach was the best and he should have gone there.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
I can give more details how I messed him up, but really want the high school baseball web family here to not duplicate my mistakes.

TPM, I told him who you are and who your son is. He told me that Clemson's pitching coach was the best and he should have gone there.

I think that we have all made mistakes, but not until later do we wish we would have done things differently.

I do agree though, people can argue all they want, but the truth is, you just never know who is going to get injured and who isn't, even when everything you do is right.

Kevin O'Sullivan (now HC at UF) is a good man, he would never compromise a pitcher's health and future for a win. I guess that is why the decision not to turn pro out of HS was so easy for son.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
He went 4 and 1 in eight days in high school. I just watched. According to some posters here, I should not have said anything to the coach? By the way, I love his high school coach, not just as a coach, but as a man.

No one is immune from making mistakes and I certainly don't want to pile on and/or make you feel worse about it than you obviously already do, but...

It is often the case that we rely on "experts" to use their good judgment (based on their training and experience) when they are in a position to make decisions that affect a young man's well-being. With all due respect, BBPapa, any coach who allows this sort of workload to land on one, still-developing arm is guilty of at least one of two possible offenses:

(1) He may know the rules, and he may be a genius regarding in-game strategy, but he doesn't know shinola about baseball;

or

(2) He wants to win at all costs, and the h*ll with the potential collateral damage to a boy's physical well-being. Perhaps he thought he could say "sorry" later on, as necessary.

The man may, indeed, be a prince, but it's obvious he doesn't have the required judgment to be a legitimate and trusted steward of a teenager.

Ok, I'll put this out there to learn from you all who have been there.

9 year old baseball. Son threw 15 pitches Saturday and a total of 45 pitches in two games Sunday afternoon.

Please critique / recommend.

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas1836:
Ok, I'll put this out there to learn from you all who have been there.

9 year old baseball. Son threw 15 pitches Saturday and a total of 45 pitches in two games Sunday afternoon.

Please critique / recommend.

Thanks.

Here is the guideline.
If it were my 9 year old, he would have been done for the weekend.
IMO, the bigger mistake made was pitching in two games on sunday. At any age, once the pitcher is done for the game, he should be done for the day.

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/position_statement.htm

TPM - Thanks. He was within strict pitch count limits per ASMI (15 pitches on Saturday is below the threshold for a day of rest and 45 pitches Sunday corresponds to two days rest) but my suspicion was that he should not pitch in two games in one day even if he is within guidelines. Appreciate the response.

What I meant was that mine would have been done the first day with the 15 pitches for the weekend. IMO, the day of rest would have been sunday.

Pro relievers, even with 15 pitches, don't pitch back to back, why should a 9 year old?

But, those ARE the guidelines. I always suggest that your gut feeling should be your guideline.

It's easier looking back in the rear view mirror. These are the things that you think about later on, I suppose when your son might have to undergo surgery in HS or college. I would listen carefully to those that have taken the road before you (see baseballpapa's and JD's post in other topic).

Did your son just pitch, or did he play a position? That should be taken into account as well. At 9 mostly everyone on son's team pitched, and played position, so there was no need for him to pitch the next day.

Thanks for the follow up and clarification.

This is a normal 9 yr old team where all can pitch. You know the drill though, some kids tend to be relied on to pitch more than others. Normal position is SS.

This is our first year in kid pitch and things have changed since I played 100 years ago (when we had 8 games plus two tournaments and were done) hence my inquiry.

The experience of this board cannot be replicated.

No problem.
If he is a ss keep in mind that they get the ball often, and that IMO should be counted as well.

My opinion is less is better (from the mound) until the pitcher physically matures and refines mechanics.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas1836:
This is a normal 9 yr old team where all can pitch. You know the drill though, some kids tend to be relied on to pitch more than others.

Unfortunately, that's the paradigm in 1st year of kid pitch, and if anything it gets even worse! I’ve seen HS teams with as many as 11 pitchers getting innings in a 208 inning season, but 149.67 were thrown by only 3 pitchers. That’s 73% of all innings for just 3 kids. I’m not saying its right or wrong, but I am saying there’s something that needs to be looked at.

Here’s something you might find even more strange. In the years my son pitched on the HSV, there were 379.33 total innings pitched. He threw 153.33 by himself, and with the #2 they threw 232.67. 61% for the 2 of them together, and 40% for him by himself. But to tell the truth, I seriously doubt those two situations even come close to what happens in some programs.

Much has to do with how good the coach thinks the pitchers are, and a lot of it is whether the coach feels his team can compete with pitchers who are less capable.

quote:

Normal position is SS.

This is our first year in kid pitch and things have changed since I played 100 years ago (when we had 8 games plus two tournaments and were done) hence my inquiry.

The experience of this board cannot be replicated.

The problem isn’t so much that more games are being played, as much as it is that the workload isn’t spread around. With only 8 games, its conceivable that only 3 or 4 pitchers get to throw and no one gets overused or abused. But its something quite different if the number of games goes up to 30 or 40 and its basically the same 3 or 4 pitchers throwing the lion’s share of the innings.

As I said, not only doesn’t the paradigm change as the kids go up in levels, in many cases it actually gets worse. And that’s why its so important for parents to understand that as much as coaches say they’re watching the kids carefully, they should never be trusted completely. Its not an indictment on coaches, its reminding parents of their responsibility.

Look at D-1 ball. Every year I look at the Super Regional teams and calculate the average innings pitched for the top 3 pitchers.

Last year it was Texas A&M with the most average innings per pitcher (top 3) and Texas was number two.

I asked someone with the program who had the highest average number of innings for the year and he didn't know.

I think at the high school and college level, many are not measuring.

Thanks to all of you. The boy's comparative advantage is in the middle infield and I don't expect him to pitch for long. Nonetheless we want to avoid naive mistakes and I will talk with the coach.

You made me think about high school though it is five years away for us. Our HS team played three games Saturday and is in Ft Lauderdale now for a tournament. That will require a lot of pitching.

http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html

TPM,

Thanks for that link. That is a really interesting list. I did a little sorting and am surprised to see UCLA was on that list for 17 games--about as many as the rest of the Pac12 combined. Trevor Bauer accounted for 12 of those games and had as many as 140 pitches. Three of Cal State Bakersfield's high of 19 games on the list were in February.

I have been called out for stating that players should wait as long as they can to take the mound, mine began at 8 but I wish it had been more like 14, 15. He also was a darn good postion player, as well as a hitter, pitching is just real tough.


TPM; I agree totally with your above statement and Baseballpapa's conclusion after what his son has experienced! I have been blasted a number of times for my take on this topic.

However, after having my limitied baseball career ended by elbow/shoulder injuries I decided that the same fate was NOT going to follow my kid if I could help it! And I could and did influence it.

After much, much research, I concluded the best bet to protect his arm was NOT to allow pitching, of any significance (more than once a week for 3-4 innings) until his elbow growth plates closed (bio age 16). If some other folks want to gamble with their kids body, then let them have at it but I wasn't going to and did not allow it. At H.S. age once a week, he could pitch twice thru the lineup. From a training perspective I never let him take time off from throwing for more than three weeks. After age 17, he trained with Marshalls system of iron balls and wrist weights and Throwing. Results, strong arm, shoulder and never, ever, has he had a sore arm or shoulder. Why, probably because of elements of all three aspects of this, he didn't pitch much, and he conditioned his arm to throw hard and year round.

Did Coaches like it?? For the most part no so they did what people do, they took a path of less resistance resulting in him staying a position player. Fine by him and me.

quote:

Originally posted by '15 Dad:
TPM,

Thanks for that link. That is a really interesting list. I did a little sorting and am surprised to see UCLA was on that list for 17 games--about as many as the rest of the Pac12 combined. Trevor Bauer accounted for 12 of those games and had as many as 140 pitches. Three of Cal State Bakersfield's high of 19 games on the list were in February.

The Rivals site had a thread on pitch counts and some comments on CSUB, especially the count on the starter for the first Sunday game in 2012. If I remember right, he went all 9 innings with a count near 145 or so.
The CSUB head coach eventually joined the discussion, with Boyd also participating, to explain and defend his position.
Not sure I have ever seen a good college head coach on a message board....it might not happen again anytime soon.

I didn't post the site to diss anyone.

Trevor Bauer probably is an exception to all rules, but if in the future he has an injury, they will point out that he pitched too much and too long in games in college.

I just think that the link can be useful in determining certain criteria during recruiting and that someone IS watching.....

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I didn't post the site to diss anyone.

Trevor Bauer probably is an exception to all rules, but if in the future he has an injury, they will point out that he pitched too much and too long in games in college.

I just think that the link can be useful in determining certain criteria during recruiting and that someone IS watching.....

And I sure don't think you did diss anyone.
The counts are what they are.
The CSUB head coach is a very knowledgeable, thoughtful, intelligent person, inside and outside of baseball. On the Rivals site, he was fully able to explain their approach, training program, and why the pitch counts are not, from his perspective and the literature he relies upon, a negative in any way.
More information is helpful and the Boyd's information provided, is that type of information, in my view, TPM.

I missed that discussion in Rivals could you send me a link?

What becomes alarming to me is when the pitch count is high and the innings are not, that means that somewhere possibly within that game the pitcher may have struggled. A good example of what I mean is on 3/01 a pitcher threw 140 pitches in 5 innings (approx). That's an average of 28 pitches per inning!

Does anyone know why Boyd Nation does not have a current year list up?

I'd like a link to the location of that discussion on Rivals as well.

Thanx

I'd give Savage a pass if Bauer ends up with an injury eventually. Bauer was very forceful in insisting on doing it his way.

I find the whole Bauer experiment to be very interesting. He's conditioned his arm very well on one hand, but he tends to overuse it on the other. I have no idea what the end result will be.

quote:

He's conditioned his arm very well on one hand, but he tends to overuse it on the other. I have no idea what the end result will be.

And whatever the end result is, far too much of a conclusion will be reached based on that sample of one arm.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html

When I posted this link the other day it was 2011, the link now has pc watch up for 2012.

I believe that Boyd Nation changed the way college coaches went about their business. The list used to be pages and pages long.

Bauer is definitely unique and needs to be viewed as an outlier. What happens to him in the future will not be representative of the majority of pitchers. His training techniques and dedication go far beyond the observable foul pole to foul pole long tossing and beginning warm ups from behind the mound. He works hard at flexibility and strengthening over his entire body, from ankles to wrists. I hope he succeeds and the extra work off the field translates into an ability to do more on the field in the long run.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I believe that Boyd Nation changed the way college coaches went about their business. The list used to be pages and pages long.

Does anyone know if injury rates went down? Or, did this have no effect?

Very interesting read to see how some handle pitch counts and suggestions to control these situations and help future pitchers. One thing I don't see too often is people talking about what their kids did or are doing from age 4 or 5 until 12 or 13. While I am a true believer in pitch counts and knowing what your "school" coach will do or not do in this regard, IMHO kids in general do not get the proper training early on in life to help prevent future problems.
You may be asking, WHAT KIND OF TRAINING can a 4 or 5 year old start that will help him when he is 15 to 16? I say something fun like swimming can make a tremendous difference in a young man's development and here's why. I am not talking about jumping in the pool and playing maro-polo either, but doing competitive swimming and learning all the strokes: free style, back stroke, breast stroke, butterfly etc. Most kids are right or left handed and naturally work that side of their body most. Put him in the pool and watch how the dominant arm jumps out of the water (mine at 4 or 5 years old reveled a really dramatic difference from dominant to weak side). It was amazing how low the weak side arm came out of the water compared to the dominant side. After 5 or more years of training both sides of your body in competitive swimming a young athletic body is much better prepared for the demands pitching puts on it for the coming years. His back and shoulder muscles are balanced and has tremendous strength throughout his upper and lower body. Swimming also emphasizes flexibility, a huge requirement for effective pitching.
I realize this may be off topic since pitch count and rest between appearances on the mound seems to be what most target for protecting the arm and I agree! I also believe parents can do a lot for their kids way before you can count that first pitch. So all you parents with future baseball stars, get those young kids out there in the pool!!

Some might say that swimming that much damages the shoulder. So much of what we do or don't do is pure conjecture. In any case, every body is different and what works for one person won't necessarily work for another. All we can do is try to limit the kids as much as is reasonable but there is always going to be a risk vs reward element to it and almost every pitcher will end up injured eventually. Some sooner, some later.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
Some might say that swimming that much damages the shoulder. So much of what we do or don't do is pure conjecture. In any case, every body is different and what works for one person won't necessarily work for another. All we can do is try to limit the kids as much as is reasonable but there is always going to be a risk vs reward element to it and almost every pitcher will end up injured eventually. Some sooner, some later.

I have to agree, help to get them to a point where they can get a shot, see what happens..because life happens and there just isn't a certain anything.
I'm thinking that Maddux should just be the "model"..that pure unattainable point where all pitchers should aim..20 yrs uninjured, happy to the end....who gets that..who in the future can attain it? The guy was a paradox..nobody is getting to the bigs early enough in the 80 mph range...so it's 90+ and imo certain injury..even if it is just the "bone chips" clean-up work that The Express had done...or the "near" TJ that Mariano had (They started to do one but didn't and he re-habed).

Ryan's surgery although commonly referred to as being to remove bone chips was actually to remove calcium deposits and not bone chips. I can't tell for certain from his description if it was calcium deposits in the muscle or bone spurs but it sounds more like calcium deposits in the muscle. He also said he was more accustomed to having significant shoulder pain than elbow pain.

Didn't they do something with the Ulnar nerve for Rivera?