More than pitchers getting surgeries to further careers, I wonder how many undiagnosed injuries simply stopped promising careers or perhaps even more commonly, stopped individuals from ever succeeding in the first place. Torn labrums, for instance, are so common and difficult to diagnose (pain is sometimes non-existent, even) that players may be passed off as untalented when they in fact just have had an unhealthy shoulder.
Wikipedia;
quote:In 1992, Rivera was promoted to the Class A-Advanced Fort Lauderdale Yankees of the Florida State League (FSL). He started 10 games in Fort Lauderdale, compiling a 5–3 win–loss record and a 2.28 ERA.[14] He attempted to improve the movement on his slider by snapping his wrist in his pitching motion, but he inadvertently caused damage to the ulnar collateral ligament in his throwing elbow.[17] Elbow surgery took place in August 1992 to repair the damage, ending his season and interrupting his minor league career.[17] It was expected that he would require Tommy John surgery, but during the procedure, Rivera's doctors determined that he did not need ligament replacement.[18] His rehabilitation coincided with the 1992 Major League Baseball (MLB) expansion draft to fill the rosters for the Florida Marlins and Colorado Rockies expansion teams. Rivera was left unprotected by the Yankees but was not drafted.[2] He successfully rehabilitated his arm in early 1993 and resumed pitching that year.
Rivera reported that they moved the ligament. I find that rather unlikely. I'm guessing that they moved the ulnar nerve or much less likely that the ligament was torn at the insertion point and they were able to re-attach it. I'd guess the ulnar nerve was moved but that's just a guess.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Rivera reported that they moved the ligament. I find that rather unlikely. I'm guessing that they moved the ulnar nerve or much less likely that the ligament was torn at the insertion point and they were able to re-attach it. I'd guess the ulnar nerve was moved but that's just a guess.
I think that you are correct, they went in saw that it was not the ligament and moved the nerve (like DK had last year). Mo had chips removed from his shoulder, a few years ago, other than that, he's always been healthy, but he doesn't throw hard and I believe he never did.
JD brings up a good point, most young RHP pitchers do not get called up throwing 80+, sometimes it takes a pitcher time to mature, and by that time he may have encountered injury that sets him back. LHP guys get a pass.It's amazing there are 19-21 year olds throwing 99-100 these days, it will be interesting to see how long their elbow and shoulders hope up (or how long). You can't throw that hard and not get injured.
What I have found to be interesting is that many times you will see a pitcher who had TJS have shoulder issues afterwards, or the other way around. One body part compensates for another.
Again I agree with the swimming, if it was such a great workout for players, the teams would have swimming pools. Eventually everything catches up with you.
JMO.
He's still consistently 92, but for a closer 92 is midling at best...it's that crazy 3 inch jink no one can hit squarely 
Son at 22 is restarting his pitching career after catching for the past 5 years with short relief pitching along the way. He throws in low 90s but after throwing a couple of innings, he has elbow pain. Currently doing the long toss work out program. Is this just from lack of pitching, or is this pain likely to become an injury?
PUHD,
Very hard and would not be fair to diagnose elbow pain over the internet.
Making the transition to position player to pitcher is not as simple as some think, a lot of the success I think has to do with who the player is working with (instructor) to make the transition. Could be as simple as fixing mechanics, or something more serious. Did he modify his weight and conditioning program? How is his core and lower body? I get the impression your son is pretty bulky. Does he have a loose arm. A sore elbow or shoulder could indicate that he is throwing all arm and not using his entire body.
If he is experiencing elbow pain he needs to shut it down until they figure out what is going on.
I saw a friend of mine the other night whose son was drafted out of HS, catcher but because he couldn't hit, they turned him into a pitcher, high 80's tosser who relied on too many curve balls to get outs.
After being told he needed TJS he retired.
Very hard and would not be fair to diagnose elbow pain over the internet.
Making the transition to position player to pitcher is not as simple as some think, a lot of the success I think has to do with who the player is working with (instructor) to make the transition. Could be as simple as fixing mechanics, or something more serious. Did he modify his weight and conditioning program? How is his core and lower body? I get the impression your son is pretty bulky. Does he have a loose arm. A sore elbow or shoulder could indicate that he is throwing all arm and not using his entire body.
If he is experiencing elbow pain he needs to shut it down until they figure out what is going on.
I saw a friend of mine the other night whose son was drafted out of HS, catcher but because he couldn't hit, they turned him into a pitcher, high 80's tosser who relied on too many curve balls to get outs.
After being told he needed TJS he retired.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
PUHD,
Very hard and would not be fair to diagnose elbow pain over the internet.
Making the transition to position player to pitcher is not as simple as some think, a lot of the success I think has to do with who the player is working with (instructor) to make the transition. Could be as simple as fixing mechanics, or something more serious. Did he modify his weight and conditioning program? How is his core and lower body? I get the impression your son is pretty bulky. Does he have a loose arm. A sore elbow or shoulder could indicate that he is throwing all arm and not using his entire body.
If he is experiencing elbow pain he needs to shut it down until they figure out what is going on.
TPM, I got a chuckle out of the bulky comment, LOL! At 6-1 and 245lbs I would have to say that is an accurate statement. He got those genes from the other side of the family. I do know he is working with the pitching staff, they really like his catching though. I have a feeling he isn't letting the coaching staff know this is occurring. I do know TJS won't stop him from staying in the game.
I have many thoughts on this topic but want to address the original question:
1) I am a former D1 and pro pitcher and I played with many pitchers who pitched from age 9 or 10 through college and pro ball for 5 plus years with no significant arm issues at all. I would say that the guys who had the worst mechanics and did not do their arm exercises or didn't pace themselves between outings tended to have surgery. If I had to put a percentage on how many pitchers I played with that did have surgery I would say around 30%. I also have been a personal instructor for 14 years and only had one kid I've worked with have surgery out of over 500. Even that one probably would not have had surgery had they listened earlier to some advice we had given them but I am happy to say he is now a D2 pitcher. The last two sentences are not intended to say "look at how good I've done it" at all, but rather to show that the % of people having surgery is not as great as most people think. It's just more prevalent than before as both the number of players playing youth baseball has increased as well as the media coverage of it so we here a lot more about those surgeries. It's kind of like plane crashes. Yes there are more now than used to be but there are many more planes flying around than used to be and we hear about the ones that do crash more because of the media coverage but in reality there are thousands of planes that fly daily that do not ever crash. This is just my personal experience so is not necessarily indicative of what the actual percentage is overall in the game or surgeries in relation to number of kids that play today.
2) See my post entitled "pitching rant" to address the HS coach or parent responsibility with pitch counts and innings
3) I want to use another physical activity to demonstrate one of the main issues of why I believe there to be younger kids arm injuries.
Track---After watching the Olympics I listened very carefully to some of the track peopele talk about their training. What they always stated was that there was a build up process, a max day and then rest. I do not see this in pitching at young ages. Picture throwing the baseball as a 100 meter sprint. If you went out and ran a couple sprints even after a two-three month lay off, you probably would not hurt yourself and if you had been jogging or running 60-70% of full intensity sprints, you might be able to do several max effort sprints without hurting yourself.
However, what I have observed is that kids whose arms are in the "jogging" phase now go out and "run" 60-80 "sprints" with the arms full speed in a game and then wonder why they are sore or get hurt. There arms simply aren't in shape to handle it. Game pitching is much different than throwing long toss or throwing in the backyard. It's not rocket science.
When I was training for my professional career, I actually started with weights and running in November to get ready for my throwing in January. When I started throwing in January, it was about 3 days a week and I was preparing for Feb. 15th when we would report to Spring Training. Our first 4-6 bullpens as starters were between 30-40 pitches with most being at a 60-75% intensity then gradually get to 2 innings off of a mound and increase the intensity in long toss as well to prepare for April and my first start of 5-6 innings. As you see, there was no 100% out of the gate approach and there should absolutely be both pitch and inning limits for young pitchers.
If a HS coach won't consider these things when coaching then he should be fired or what I might suggest is having him get on a track and run 80 sprints at 90-100% intensity with no real build up process and see how his body feels for the next couple of weeks if he can even walk. Different sport but same principle applies.
Your arm needs proper training, rest, etc. but learning how to do that for a young pitcher is paramount.
I had Tommy John surgery because I had horrible mechanics when I was 12-17 and was very overused. Times have changed and there should be much more focus on training a pitcher correctly, not just putting him on the mound because he can throw the ball over the plate even if it appears he can physically do it 70-80 times. Doesn't mean damage is not being done. just my two cents...
Brandon
1) I am a former D1 and pro pitcher and I played with many pitchers who pitched from age 9 or 10 through college and pro ball for 5 plus years with no significant arm issues at all. I would say that the guys who had the worst mechanics and did not do their arm exercises or didn't pace themselves between outings tended to have surgery. If I had to put a percentage on how many pitchers I played with that did have surgery I would say around 30%. I also have been a personal instructor for 14 years and only had one kid I've worked with have surgery out of over 500. Even that one probably would not have had surgery had they listened earlier to some advice we had given them but I am happy to say he is now a D2 pitcher. The last two sentences are not intended to say "look at how good I've done it" at all, but rather to show that the % of people having surgery is not as great as most people think. It's just more prevalent than before as both the number of players playing youth baseball has increased as well as the media coverage of it so we here a lot more about those surgeries. It's kind of like plane crashes. Yes there are more now than used to be but there are many more planes flying around than used to be and we hear about the ones that do crash more because of the media coverage but in reality there are thousands of planes that fly daily that do not ever crash. This is just my personal experience so is not necessarily indicative of what the actual percentage is overall in the game or surgeries in relation to number of kids that play today.
2) See my post entitled "pitching rant" to address the HS coach or parent responsibility with pitch counts and innings
3) I want to use another physical activity to demonstrate one of the main issues of why I believe there to be younger kids arm injuries.
Track---After watching the Olympics I listened very carefully to some of the track peopele talk about their training. What they always stated was that there was a build up process, a max day and then rest. I do not see this in pitching at young ages. Picture throwing the baseball as a 100 meter sprint. If you went out and ran a couple sprints even after a two-three month lay off, you probably would not hurt yourself and if you had been jogging or running 60-70% of full intensity sprints, you might be able to do several max effort sprints without hurting yourself.
However, what I have observed is that kids whose arms are in the "jogging" phase now go out and "run" 60-80 "sprints" with the arms full speed in a game and then wonder why they are sore or get hurt. There arms simply aren't in shape to handle it. Game pitching is much different than throwing long toss or throwing in the backyard. It's not rocket science.
When I was training for my professional career, I actually started with weights and running in November to get ready for my throwing in January. When I started throwing in January, it was about 3 days a week and I was preparing for Feb. 15th when we would report to Spring Training. Our first 4-6 bullpens as starters were between 30-40 pitches with most being at a 60-75% intensity then gradually get to 2 innings off of a mound and increase the intensity in long toss as well to prepare for April and my first start of 5-6 innings. As you see, there was no 100% out of the gate approach and there should absolutely be both pitch and inning limits for young pitchers.
If a HS coach won't consider these things when coaching then he should be fired or what I might suggest is having him get on a track and run 80 sprints at 90-100% intensity with no real build up process and see how his body feels for the next couple of weeks if he can even walk. Different sport but same principle applies.
Your arm needs proper training, rest, etc. but learning how to do that for a young pitcher is paramount.
I had Tommy John surgery because I had horrible mechanics when I was 12-17 and was very overused. Times have changed and there should be much more focus on training a pitcher correctly, not just putting him on the mound because he can throw the ball over the plate even if it appears he can physically do it 70-80 times. Doesn't mean damage is not being done. just my two cents...
Brandon
quote:Originally posted by agamennone1:
Your arm needs proper training, rest, etc. but learning how to do that for a young pitcher is paramount.
I had Tommy John surgery because I had horrible mechanics when I was 12-17 and was very overused. Times have changed and there should be much more focus on training a pitcher correctly, not just putting him on the mound because he can throw the ball over the plate even if it appears he can physically do it 70-80 times. Doesn't mean damage is not being done. just my two cents...
Brandon
Your two cents is very much appreciated.
The occurance for TJS in pro ball, considering the numbers is surprisingly low. I do believe this to be a better system in instruction and college players being treated better than in the past (thank you Boyd Nation).
I also agree that because of better communication and knowledge there should be less incidence of injury for young players and better ways to manage yung pitchers.
There are still stories of young pitchers going from the mound to the backstop or ss. That responsibility lies on both the coach and parent.
PUHD asked a question. I tried to answer the best I could, what is your opinion? Mine is that the player needs to stop and see what is causing the pain. The pain could already be an injury.
Catchers have a very high incidence of TJS. Pitchers that catch put themselves at a greater risk, especially if the arm is not trained properly.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by agamennone1:
Your arm needs proper training, rest, etc. but learning how to do that for a young pitcher is paramount.
I had Tommy John surgery because I had horrible mechanics when I was 12-17 and was very overused. Times have changed and there should be much more focus on training a pitcher correctly, not just putting him on the mound because he can throw the ball over the plate even if it appears he can physically do it 70-80 times. Doesn't mean damage is not being done. just my two cents...
Brandon
Your two cents is very much appreciated.
The occurance for TJS in pro ball, considering the numbers is surprisingly low. I do believe this to be a better system in instruction and college players being treated better than in the past (thank you Boyd Nation).
I also agree that because of better communication and knowledge there should be less incidence of injury for young players and better ways to manage yung pitchers.
There are still stories of young pitchers going from the mound to the backstop or ss. That responsibility lies on both the coach and parent.
PUHD asked a question. I tried to answer the best I could, what is your opinion? Mine is that the player needs to stop and see what is causing the pain. The pain could already be an injury.
Catchers have a very high incidence of TJS. Pitchers that catch put themselves at a greater risk, especially if the arm is not trained properly.
For PUHD and TPM---
My opinion on this is that throwing a baseball in general is the least well taught part of baseball. The reason is simple...I can get the ball to my target with accuracy and even velocity but my mechanics of throwing may be horrific. This is a much easier one to demonstrate in person so I may try and shoot video this and post if we are able to on here.
In the interim, most people rotate like a merry go round when they throw which means they are putting strain on the front part of the arm and the smaller muscles, tendons, ligaments associated with those muscle groups. If you notice which areas tend to have the most arm surgeries it is front part of the elbow(TJ) and front part of the rotator cuff. Rarely do you see back side of arm injuries(tricep, lats, rear deltoid).
If people can learn to rotate their bodies more like a ferris wheel as they throw(forward and down) and get flexion on their front side then it automatically gets your head going forward, followed by your arm but triggers big muscles to do the big work instead of small muscles to do the big work and the braking.
I always tell our kids, picture a freight train going 70-100mph and trying to stop that using bicycle brakes. People don't realize how "wrong" mechanically they throw because end result still works...for a time.
I have made some pretty bold predictions in the past few years and one just recently that was so obvious to me but surprised me that the powers that be did not see it in the Rangers front office. Nephtali Feliz, although a great young arm does not have starting pitching mechanics at all but "re-coils" greatly. I thought it was a poor move to try and make him a starter simply because of his mechanics, not because of any other reason. As a reliever, he may only throw incorrectly 20-30 times roughly every other day at full effort whereas being a starter, that is now pushed to 90-120 times plus a full bullpen session or two in between starts. That is a recipe for disaster when you have poor mechanics. Incredible arm with good end result so nobody messed with him but if I was their pitching coach I would have been pushing him to make changes and I think his end result would not have suffered at all.
So back to the original question, catcher's have poor throwing mechanics in general by not squaring their back foot when they throw back to pitcher, rotating like a merry go round and putting pressure on front side muscles instead of back side muscles. Not all, but most.
I have a very good friend who is a big league catcher who was having issues with arm soreness and was actually on DL last year because of it and he called and asked me what to do and I walked him through it and met with him about 3-4 times to make sure he understood the throwing mechanics and what was correct and then he went out and did it. He went this whole year without one issue and saw improvement in throwing down to 2nd, etc.
At younger ages, the danger is increased because kids athleticism is much different than a MLB catcher and definitely switching a player from pitcher to catcher in youth games will increase risk of injury in my opinion. The way around that is to implement the pitch counts and then not let the kid catch until the next game to give him time to rest or vice versa, if you catch him the first game then don't let him pitch the 2nd game and so on. Let him wait till the next day. The reason why these two positions are so important is because of the number of throws the two positions make.
okay, I'm worn out
I will definitely have to post some video on this once I get some time to shoot it to explain further.Brandon
You really don't have to verse me on the specifics on pitching mechanics.
But I do think it is important to stress that just because the ball arrives in the proper place doesn't mean that it has been executed in a safe manner.
Something I was trying to relate to PUHD.
But I do think it is important to stress that just because the ball arrives in the proper place doesn't mean that it has been executed in a safe manner.
Something I was trying to relate to PUHD.
Brandon, thank you for the information on conditioning. When son was a LL pitcher he went to a local college coach and was taught the towel drill that Tom House uses. I will inquire from son what type of training/conditioning he is using and post it here.
