Pitching Questions Answered here by MLB Veteran

= Edited by moderator =

Aside from the color..my wife shot the vid...
I appeaciate any comments on this pitcher..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go_QZqnv7FE

quote:

Originally posted by MLBVeteran:
Pitching Questions?


Please note that although some pitching coaches may have "professional" experience, I am currently the only pitching coach with reputable and lengthy Major League Baseball experience, along with statistics and biographies.

It is great that you want to use your experience to help younger athletes but whenever I see a quote from someone who is marketing themselves mention other "pitching coaches" I see a red flag.

Not to mention I dont see how your statement can even have a thread of truth to it. I'm pretty sure there are pitching coaches out there with "lengthy Major League Baseball experience."

I have also found that coaching has little to do with what the coach has actually done, and alot to do with how they instruct and relay sound ideas to the student.

If it was all about what You have done then the greatest players would be the greatest coaches and that just doesn't hold water.

This doesn't mean you are not a great coach btw. Its just MO that when marketing yourself stay away from the temptation of bring up how you are above the other's in the same profession.

Although I don't have any personal experience with his coaching, he was the pitching coach at one of our local high schools a few years back and the accounts I've heard were positive. The league has been fortunate enough to have had several different ex-mlb pitchers and an ex-mlb pitching coach at one time or another.

My son is 9 years old and he has a decent fast ball at 46 mph and a nice change up at 33 mph.

one coach we worked with call him a "finesse" pitcher, as opposed to a power pitcher. he is only 52 lbs dripping wet, so he can't throw any harder until he hits a growth spurt. He locates very well, usually throwing 75% for strikes and walking no more than 3 batters per game. He has 3 complete games and one no-hitter.

Lots of kids are throwing harder, a few 9 year olds are throwing 52.

Is there a magic number my son should be throwing at each year in order to be competitive? I think he will grow, but will be a late bloomer. Should we give up pitching and just work on position play only. He loves to pitch, but I wonder if we are on the right track, or if there is anything else we could/should do. We do lots of core work, a little heavy ball work and long toss when we can.

Gameth I had the same thoughts. So far I haven't seen him help anyone on the site even when asked for help.

Gameth and Bobblehead-
I have answered questions via private mesenging, including analyzing videos and in depth drafting inquiries. It seems to me on this thread, the tone is quite different and I would like to address your comments.

When giving pitching instruction, one must know what it feels like to pitch successfully at all levels, therefore, I am able to relate to all levels. I am not being condescending in my bio, however, take for example a teacher with an undergraduate degree teaching a subject and another teacher with a phD in the subject teaching the same subject. My feelings are although they both may be great teachers, one has more to offer than the other. During my baseball journey, I have run into thousands of coaches, some good, some bad, whose egos were bigger than their knowledge. They just didn't want to let it go, that "they did not make it." If I had a dime for every time I heard one of these coaches give their reason for not making it to another level, I could have retired a lot sooner. Most excuses are laffable and you and your sons, will experience what I am talking about first hand if you have not already. Having said that, there are coaches who have been humbled by this game that actually have "kids learning baseball" in their best interest. That is why I recommend and find it is imperative to research coaches and their credentials...Former MLB players with lengthy careers have been humbled by this game many, many times... that humbling enables a better understanding of the game in its purest form.I have and will continue to coach by keeping baseball fun and sharing my experiences and knowledge of the sport. At the end of the day, every parent wants the right answer and not what someone thinks is the right answer. My baseball journey started in little league at 8 years old and ended at 40 in the major leagues. All I am saying is that I have encountered just about every scenario possible...good and bad. I feel that I am qualified to answer just about any question. I make no apologies for my career. It was because of hard work and dedication and a lot of humbled coaches along the way. Feel free to ask me any questions on the board or in private messaging. I wish you all the luck in seeking your answers.

CADad-
Thank you for your kind words. I truly enjoyed coaching the players. Did you know that Jason Breckley is in the college world series at Fresno State? and Brett Hunter is on the collegiate olympic team? We should all be proud of those guys!

Rich

Rajun Cajun-
Here's my take on your question. Most pitchers in the major leagues have no idea how hard they threw at 9 years of age. At 9 years of age, we are still growing. The most important thing for your son is to develop the proper mechanics. He will eventually grow into those mechanics. By 14 years of age, you will get somewhat of an idea of his potential, but keep in mind, there are late bloomers.
As to the magic number, there are kids who do not throw very hard at a young age and develop into a hard throwing pitcher and vice versa.

The most important thing for your son is to have fun throwing the ball around. I could give you the advice I would give to a 15-16 year old, but we both know that wouldn't be appropriate for his young age. Keep in mind there are no scouts or college coaches at these games, so there is plenty of time for him to work on his mechanics and develop into the player he will become. This may sound too simple, but this is the purest advice I can give. Proper pitching mechanics will enable him to become a better pitcher; the factors of "throwing hard" is a combination of technique and god given talent. We can only control one of them, so let's concentrate on that.

Rich

MLBVeteran,
Your response shows that you are indeed a professional! Regardless of your coaching ability (because we don't know), in my opinion you have identified yourself, where others come to give advice and never do. So for many of us, that makes you credible.
Great posts by the way.

The above comments about you were completely uncalled for.

Just my opinion.

TPM as usual you have to but in.

I was not questioning his credentials.
I was questioning his motives and statements. My son has been coached by guys with as much or more credentials.
His posts seemed more like self promotion. The site is for info and I always thought self promotion was frowned upon. I actually waited to see if he helped anyone but saw no advice in any of his posts until he was questioned.
Pitching is not rocket science even though many try to sell the secrets of pitching to the guppies of this world..

Rajun Cajun,

I thought Rich Rodriguez gave you a very reasonable answer to your question; however, I would go a little further on the subject of your concerns about a 9 yo pitcher's velocity.

The ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute) has published several compelling studies of youth pitcher injury--their primary conclusion is very clear: Overuse is the biggest risk factor for arm injury to youth pitchers. And, the single pitch type that best correlates to arm injuries among youth pitchers? No, it is not the curveball or slider--it is the fastball.

Shocking? Hardly. "Johnny Stud", who can throw strikes in the low 50's at 9 yo, is going to be used more than any other pitcher on his team. The glory of being "team ace" will undoubtedly last for several years. Johnny Stud's father will likely support his son's chronic overuse, because he gets to bask in his little boy's reflected glory, as long as Johnny is going good and winning games.

If you have no idea what an immature growth plate is, and what the stresses of high pitching loads can do to immature growth plates, you should educate yourself.

Youth pitching at LL level should mostly be about developing kids' throwing mechanics and their physical condition for throwing/pitching so they will have fun when they are on the mound. "Johnny Stud" will be much better off, in my opinion, if he is on teams from 9 - 12 yo where at least 3/4 of his teammates share the pitching load.

Of course, "Johnny" and his dad will have to defer some accumulation of glory but, honestly, there is probably not much long-term satisfaction to be gained from 9 yo glory on the mound anyway.

I thought I asked a respectful reasonable question...I was interested to know if you had any comments in regard to this pitcher...well see my previous post on this thread.

JDfromFla-
Hey Jd, I apologize for the skip over,yes,a very resonable question.

I feel after watching the above video, the tempo is a little too fast. By being too quick, this does not give enough time to load up. What happens when one is too quick, the player tends to drift forward too quickly making the arm come through the slot with a short arm tendencey. As for the landing, I find it acceptable. Please keep an eye on the glove in the video, it tends to drop. Remember to keep that left arm balanced and turn in the glove either toward the chest or hip, whatever feels comfortable.
Think of it as a push pull theory.

Many Thanks.

I did look at our stat book and I did find that he pitched the most out of any of our pitchers. I hadn't noticed it because I hadn't really looked for that. I wish all of our kids knew how to pitch. We only seem to have about 3 consistent strike throwers, and 3 inconsistent ones. Not nearly enough to get through a tournament.

Sometimes dads need to slow down, or be forced to slow down and not be drawn into all hype about going for more and trying to increase the numbers on the radar gun.

I will definitely slow down and make sure my boy doesn't get over-worked and do too much pitching, or do too many hard throwing drills. I know he will be a late bloomer physically and I do feel he has two things going for him right now: excellent control from sound mechanics, and a controlled mental approach that he seemed to find all by himself.

We won't be throwing much after his next two tournaments as our season will be ending in mid July. After that he will be doing gymnastics and working on his leg muscles and core muscles. We will throw about 30 pitches a week (20 fast balls and 10 change ups) to keep the dust off, but we won't do more than that. I do like the concept of periodization, at least at this young age.

Thanks!

jdfromfla,

IMO… Your son might want to try to keep his foot more parallel to the rubber.

I think everyone is rooting for Jason to do well in the CWS now that he's getting healthy again and for Brett to be able to strike a good deal with Oakland. None of them were there yet when those guys were playing but they know about them.

Thanks Rich..PG, good feedback! I appreciate the input. I don't mind saying that TPM caught the glove action also
I'll drop another soon and show you how/if hes adjusted.

LAF I have argued for years that the FB is the most dangerous pitch for young pitchers.

JD where did TPM say anything about the glove action ? I reread her post and it was her ussual condescending reprimand of those who questioned MLB s motives. He now has started to make some comments about questions asked. I had waited and checked his posts and saw nothing until he was questioned about his motives.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
JD where did TPM say anything about the glove action ? I reread her post and it was her ussual condescending reprimand of those who questioned MLB s motives. He now has started to make some comments about questions asked. I had waited and checked his posts and saw nothing until he was questioned about his motives.

It was done in a private pm. Actually, my opinions pretty close to what has been said here.

JMO, concerns regarding motives most likely should be left to the site owner.

I didn't see anywhere where she objected to his posts.

Did you?

Oh so your opinion is the only one that counts.
In my opinion we got MLB to give his opinion and that is what he said he would do.
Anyone who didn't see the glove was way too low is blind.
You also argued with me about CBs and Andrews and his assocs have stated that over use and FBs are the main problems. Overuse is a subjective term and over use to one young pitcher is not to another.
Non of us were insulting to MLB nor did we question his credentilas and I am happy to see him respond to questions.
I might ask why you went PM to answer a question when the site is for public info not to chastize other posters who ask good questions.

I should have mentioned that...didn't think where it was written mattered. I think part of the problem was that he didn't respond obviously in a very timely manner...of course if you put yourself in his shoes...he may have not had time to be real quick like us folks who lack a real life
I know my friend Wilkens (His ex-team mate..who he patted me on the head over... ) Is busier than a one-armed paper hanger and if...if he had a minute to post once, he'd be hard pressed to come back and post consistently after the fact..so a little patience and charity may have been in order...sure you giving him a little jiggle may have spurred it..but I can take his word that he was privately talking to posters while we waited for some more public side discussion. Yes it did look like self-promotion...shame that a guy can't come on talk sense and not have to lay out his credentials but I think in a pre-emptive move to have to keep from doing that, it may have been prudent to be a little self-promotive.
You guys can be a tough crowd...me included

Personally I didn't think we were that tough on him. Gameth voiced a legit concern that had crossed my miond as I waited for his responsees to several threads he started. i couldn't find any responses to questions asked.
His credentials are worth noting but his statements and claims were a little prsumptious and inaccurate. That is why I suspected self promotion.
As I said I am happy he is starting to answer questions as he said he would. I actually was dissappointed when he left posters hanging for answers to their questions.

IDK there bobble...factor in Born Agains chide and it looked pretty tough...I think he showed some charactor by not telling the site to bite and look for easier less harsh pastures. I figure he's making a decent buck doing it locally...
But what the heck it's past, I say good to move on...Your concerns, I think, got addressed in a positive manner
As far as TPM's pm'ing me what she observed...look at how you responded to her observation..."Anyone who didn't see the glove was way too low is blind" (I'll point out that you made no comments when asked...) as if to discount that the observation was made...she saw it, was concerned that making the observation would get her derided and so pm'ed that and a couple of other pertainent thoughts...ok..you two obviously have at it..she attempted to avoid that by pm'ing her thoughts..I shouldn't have mentioned it but you went ahead and proved out the point here.

I am not the only one who has a problem with her as witnessed a few days ago.
I would never ride her for contributing to the post. Coming into it and chiding the posters over what I considered legit concerns I will.
I didn't contribute because I was waiting for MLB to anawer the question asked of him. I see other issues aswell.
TPM and I don't get along because of many issues I have had with her including revealing info I gave her in a Private message that was not for public consumption. There are several knowledgeable posters who have had run ins with her and have left the site.

Not sure what BA said but it was deleted quickly and maybe it should have been. I didn't see it.

BHD,

[Edit added: My note below was in re: your one-liner in agreement with idea of the FB being the most risky pitch for youth pitchers....while I was writing it, a fair amount of water flowed under the bridge so it may look very far out of context in this thread...]

In fairness, the connections are not always that obvious to most of us (myself included). ASMI research articles are often so technical in nature that much of the content can be difficult to digest.

Another of the non-intuitive revelations that recently came out of ASMI was: Throwing breaking balls does not seem to correlate with youth pitcher injuries--at least in the studies conducted so far--despite a tremendous amount of 'common baseball wisdom' to the contrary. In fact, Fleisig and Andrews specifically looked for that correlation, hypothesizing ahead of time that it would be found. However, when the presumed correlation was not found, they were good enough scientists to report their findings without bias.

Unfortunately, these limited studies cannot really control for the variation in quality of breaking pitches that might be taught to youth pitchers across the country so "caveat emptor" still remains a sound idea in pitching.

What I take from this (and I recognize I am getting far, far off of the original topic---sorry, folks!) is that if you do know how to teach a biomechanically efficient breaking ball, then go ahead and teach it to young kids before they learn a poor one from somebody else. The flip side is: If you suspect that you don't know enough about the subject to teach it well, then refrain from teaching it at all. Sometimes it does pay to seek, identify, and hire expert help.

I also posted on the regular pitching forum (Opinions/Observations) and really am interested to hear what it is you see...I'm a big believer in more input is better, with the caveat that it has to be waded through and used as necessary.
I'd suggest you guys somehow find a way to bury the hatchet...Let it go, did her divulging your pm harm you (You seem well respected on the site)? Don't pm her anymore. If you look at her or a moderators point of view..it was in HSBBW's best interest to attempt to protect a valued new poster and take his side...jumping the gun? Maybe, but as approriate at least as your concerns were imo
BA was being overly sarcastic and made an attempt at humility generation that, at that point, was unwarrented...in the opinion of the moderator anyway.

First, I did not address anyone in particular regarding comments that were made, which in my opinion were unwarranted and obviously the moderator who deleted them (NOT ME).

I also did mention that the response to the comments was done professionally, kind of telling me where the new webster's intentions might be coming from for posting. I wanted him to know his comments, from another webster here, were welcomed.

Thanks JD, but as usual someone has brought this topic way south of it's original intention. Instead of b*tching about me nothing has been contributed here that is worthwhile.

Laflippin,
I understand what you are saying about the FB being dangerous for young hard throwers. They are often the ones who are used more frequently because of that. While there are so many folks who take pride in their young sons getting much time in games when they are young, it is not healthy. I agree with MLBveteran that the most important thing is developing good mechanics and the rest will come as the player matures.
As far as the dangers of the CB, I also agree. Very few can teach it properly to young pitchers and that can cause issues. The problem with the CB is about the same as the FB. If you get players out often, it's used more frequently, you are used more frequently. That's what I have always said. My son was taught early but didn't begin to actually rely on it until he developed a good FB and CU and even though he threw very hard, young, we limited his playing time. Young players who rely on the CB don't develop their FB or other pitchers.

My understanding from what ASMI and Andrews advocates is that there is no specific one thing, but a combination of things that can damage young arms.

TPM,

I love hearing insightful details from folks like you--the real experiences leading to your son's current level in baseball are valuable experiences by definition.

The conclusions about high velo FB = potential for overuse at young ages caught me by surprise when I read the study...I had really never thought about it in that way before I saw the ASMI research. Wish I had thought of it first...I coulda woulda shoulda been a guru!

laflippin,
Not sure of all of this guru stuff, my husband pointed a lot of this out when son was very young, he's not a guru, just some of it very common sense.

I APOLOGIZE!

I want to say that I'm a bit embarrassed at a few of the comments to Rich/MLBVeteran, and I apologize to him on behalf of the site.

This is a HS Baseball website, filled with parents of players who hope to have as successful a baseball career as possible, whatever level they have reached so far or may ever reach. We even have a few pro players and parents of pro players, and I very much appreciate the information and stories they are willing to share with us!

Here we have a pitcher who played successfully at the highest level and is willing to answer questions for our members. I appreciate him stopping by, and very much welcome any time he is able to spend with us. I realize that he is busy and has other time commitments...and I know that he also is not an avid Internet user, and doesn't spend a lot of time in front of the computer. I think that most of us can understand that, and are respectful enough to be patient about responses.

Rich, thank you very much for your patience with us, and again, I do apologize for the few impolite responses.

Julie

I have been having trouble with my mechanics lately. Actually, today I was pitching and my mechanics were almost different each inning. What must there be in the wind-up?

Should the whole body be goning forward as fast as possible or should there be a balance point and then explode towards the plate?

Should I start with my toes pointing at angle on the mound?

Lastly, how do I throw a quality curveball?

Sshould my hand be facing my head the whole time when throwing it, or should I start it by throwing it like a fastball then role my wrist over at the release?

Thanks MLB Veteran

Lando-

Nothing worse than not being able to find yourself in a game. Hope this helps.

In the wind up, try to break it down into 3 parts:
your initial step back, your leg kick, and your delivery. As to the whole body going forward, the body automatically falls forward as you attempt to deliver the pitch. Think of it as lifting your leg, falling forward and catching yourself before you fall. Yes you do have a balance point , then you fall forward. The only explosion you have is when your foot hits the ground and your arm explodes through the zone or arm slot. Your body should be in a stabilized position so that you can generate as much arm speed as possible. Your toes should point where you feel comfortable. Some pitchers point their toe to help open their hips before they start their wind-up. As to your curve ball, I did not throw one, so I am not the best person to ask.

Best of luck.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Laflippin,
I understand what you are saying about the FB being dangerous for young hard throwers. They are often the ones who are used more frequently because of that. While there are so many folks who take pride in their young sons getting much time in games when they are young, it is not healthy. I agree with MLBveteran that the most important thing is developing good mechanics and the rest will come as the player matures.
As far as the dangers of the CB, I also agree. Very few can teach it properly to young pitchers and that can cause issues. The problem with the CB is about the same as the FB. If you get players out often, it's used more frequently, you are used more frequently. That's what I have always said. My son was taught early but didn't begin to actually rely on it until he developed a good FB and CU and even though he threw very hard, young, we limited his playing time. Young players who rely on the CB don't develop their FB or other pitchers.

My understanding from what ASMI and Andrews advocates is that there is no specific one thing, but a combination of things that can damage young arms.

I have not read the ASMI document on CB's but more or less expected their conclusions. There are more ways to throw a CB wrong than right, which is the problem. We had a HS sponsored tournament with 13YO's playing at our fields last weekend. A couple of HS seniors were helping out and told me that they saw more CB's thrown on Saturday then they saw in their complete HS career.

The problem is that they work at younger ages but once you reach HS you must have a well-developed FB. (Unless you are a lefty with some unique ball movement) Without a good one you won't make it and the reality is that in HS the top 3 pitchers on each team are going to get the majority of the innings, so if you want to pitch much you need to be one of the three and you need a good FB.

I also agree that the real culprit is overuse, and by far the biggest problem is the move to travel/weekend tournaments where lots of innings are needed over a short period of time. If I were running a travel team I would limit kids to 75 pitches per weekend and make sure I developed and brought lots of kids who could pitch.

In hindsight I'd say that the ASMI findings are intuitive as the main thing that hurts arms is throwing harder and most pitchers slow down the arm considerably when throwing curves. On the other hand throwing hard is the one thing that develops arm strength.

So I would still say that throwing curves at an early age is dangerous - to a pitcher's development.

BOF,
I guess it depends on what you call a well developed fastball. I believe that a HS pitcher can be one of the top 3 even in our league with a low 80s (80-82) fastball if he has good control of his breaking stuff. I expect on of our top 3 next season to be a 80 to 82 guy who throws a high percentage of sliders for strikes. I wonder if his arm is going to hold up with all the sliders given that he has had UCL issues in the past but he may be doing less UCL damage throwing 74 mph sliders than he would if he picked up his velocity and threw a mid 80s fastball.

Anecdotally, I threw a lot of sliders when I was in HS at 16yo and although my elbow ached at times I never had any lasting issues.

How is it that nobody addresses the problems with throwing a curveball at the Little League level as again HS ?===two different distances---learn the curve at LL and you need to learn it all over again in HS---no Hi Tech here--just simple common sense

Funny how most don't accept ASMI's findings at face value. Thet see more arm injuries than any other specialists in the world. Their findings are clear. FBs are hard on a young pitchers arm and cause more injuries than CBs.
I have pointed out in the past that I see just as many injuries if not more in catchers and infielders. They do not throw CBs.
As far as effective relying on CBs my son has beat top US teams relying on CBs and a low 80s FB including a HS state championship team. 3 of the players are still playing on the LSU team in their senior year. He has also pitched successfully against guys who have been in the minors for 2 or 3 years.
He has never had an arm injury and as I have said before he was over used all his BB years. I personally think DNA has something to do with it.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
BOF,
I guess it depends on what you call a well developed fastball. I believe that a HS pitcher can be one of the top 3 even in our league with a low 80s (80-82) fastball if he has good control of his breaking stuff. I expect on of our top 3 next season to be a 80 to 82 guy who throws a high percentage of sliders for strikes.

CADad,

I think you are right on target regarding velocity for the average Varsity pitcher. Again I am just now seeing more Varsity players since my son is playing up with them this summer. I see many more throwing below 80 than throwing above. I was at a 16U tournament this weekend and I clocked 3 throwing above 80 (top was 82) and lots more below.

It is a very difficult thing to throw a baseball over 80MPH, the ones who throw in the mid-high eighties have either a) worked VERY hard at it or b) have been one of the few chosen ones with blessed arms. I am beginning to think that 90’s guys are mostly genetic, sure they may work their tail off, but for some no matter how hard they work are not going to throw a baseball at 90MPH.