I would be interested to know what the folks think of a strategy throw only FB first time thru the order.
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If the team can hit, you’ll get shelled.
a future relief pitcher.
Bob
How fast is fast? What is the pitchers out pitch?
Lefty or righty?
oldest son's HS coach used to say that he'd try to get the pitcher through the 1st trip by just using FB (2 and 4 seam) and Change, unless a breaking ball was needed in a tight situation.
As long as you can get away with it, then sure why not. Heck, I might even just keep calling FB. That is until the team proves they can catch up to it. I absolutely despise watching a kid get overwhelmed with 2 FBs, only to get a bloop 2 strike hit on a fancy little curveball that didn't bounce.
The real problem with throwing ONLY FBs the 1st time through the line-up is that very few pitchers have the true velocity to accomplish this feat. At least against decent competition. Plus you have to add into the equation that the high strike is rarely ever called. This makes climbing the ladder very hard. Not impossible, but very difficult without a secondary pitch.
Depends on the talent you are playing and velo, of course. I'm not sure that is a long term strategy though.
Son gave up 3 home runs Sunday to Northwestern in 1.2 innings. He said later he threw 60% fastballs, more than any other pitcher in the game. Didn't seem to work well. I didn't see the pitch speeds, but 57% of pitches were strikes. I'm not sure if that's good or bad?
Iowamom23 you will best understand this because we play Ankeny Friday. And I think too many FB's and those boys will drill you.
@Good Knight posted:Iowamom23 you will best understand this because we play Ankeny Friday. And I think too many FB's and those boys will drill you.
GK, your post implies that your son's coach is advocating throwing nothing but fastballs first time through the order? If so, doesn't every hitting guru on the planet advise hitters to "hunt fastballs"? Didn't the Astros cheat in order to know when fastballs were coming? Unless the pitcher is Jacob deGrom, why do you want to make the hitters' job that much easier by letting them know that all you're throwing is number one and daring them to hit it?
like a lot of things in life, it depends. contrary to popular opinion, i don't think you need elite velo to accomplish this. it helps, of course.
with good command and movement, you can live with 2 seams down and get them looking for a ball running down and in (to righties). your "out" pitch now becomes a 4 seam that's maybe a couple mph higher and above the hands.
To be successful, throw strikes, trust in your defense.
TPM;
correct, however it is important that the Coach conducts his practice time on defense. Minimum 30 minutes daily.
Bob
The example I gave him was state semi finals, junior year. Son's first inning was fine, no one on base. Second inning, 9 FB called in a row. 5 hits. All fb were 92-94mph and his average spin on the fb is 2485, so it does move. He got shelled. Insisted on calling his own games the next year. Nothing but fb might work for normal games in hs, but for good hitters, it isn't going to fly for very long.
Great advice given. The one thing I would add is a pitcher doesn’t always command all his stuff. I would say go with what is working best for you that particular day. That’s why it’s important to work all your stuff in bullpen prior to outing. Not sure what level your son is, but fast ball only isn’t gonna work very long. But, if on a given day, that IS working, stick with it until the other team makes you change your approach. My best advice is to pitch to your strength not their weakness. In the long run, that will be what is best for you. If I’m gonna get beat, I want to get beat throwing my best pitch even if they KNOW it’s coming. I think a lot of times pitchers / coaches try to get “too cute”.
@Consultant posted:TPM;
correct, however it is important that the Coach conducts his practice time on defense. Minimum 30 minutes daily.
Bob
Practice, Practice, Practice!
@younggun posted:Great advice given. The one thing I would add is a pitcher doesn’t always command all his stuff. I would say go with what is working best for you that particular day. That’s why it’s important to work all your stuff in bullpen prior to outing. Not sure what level your son is, but fast ball only isn’t gonna work very long. But, if on a given day, that IS working, stick with it until the other team makes you change your approach. My best advice is to pitch to your strength not their weakness. In the long run, that will be what is best for you. If I’m gonna get beat, I want to get beat throwing my best pitch even if they KNOW it’s coming. I think a lot of times pitchers / coaches try to get “too cute”.
Great post. Hope all is well with your lefty!
TY TPM. He is doing well! Just too far away. The west coast time zone makes for LATE games here on east coast. Haha
@Good Knight posted:Iowamom23 you will best understand this because we play Ankeny Friday. And I think too many FB's and those boys will drill you.
Please beat them. And I agree.
The “fastballs only first time thru the order” mentality makes me crazy. If you are a facing a good team this strategy will insure two things ; 1) you will be behind 3-0 at the end of the first inning and, 2) there won’t be a second time thru the order. I’m a big advocate of changing speeds and IMO that starts right from the jump. I tell the HS pitchers that I work with to own their game - which includes shaking off a pitch if necessary. You can’t throw 9 fastballs in a row and expect good results.
Pitch selection predictability = short outing.
I don't like that strategy especially to 3,4,5 hitters that can do damage. SPs should have at least 3 pitches. Highlight certain pitches in certain counts to specific hitters. Always have a pre-game strategy with PC and catcher for those hitters that can hurt you.
JMO.
i agree with everyone saying that throwing the same pitch to 9 batters in a row is a recipe for disaster but the question just said "fastball". to me, that means 2 seams that run arm-side, cutters that run glove-side and 4 seams that "rise" (don't fall as much as you expect them to). you can put together a pretty good game plan if you can command those three. locate in and out, up and down. move it in and out...this isn't even getting into the different movement and shapes you can get by changing your grips for your 2 seam and cutter.
I don't think you should be only fastballs the first time through but it can make sense to mostly lean FB the first time through and only occasionally use the breaking ball and then mix it up later.
Lance Lynn does that pretty well, he goes like 80% FB the first time through the order (I think he might use two fastballs) and only occasionally mix in the slider mostly late in the count and then later he mixes in the slider more.
So I would never throw 100% FB but maybe 70-30 or even 80-20 the first time through and then throw less FBs the second time through. That might be a compromise that works for the coach.
I would never go totally one pitch except for bottom of the order hitters who are way to late on the FB and who you might help with offspeed stuff because even if you go 80-20 (like Josh Hader) it still leaves a bit of doubt in the hitters mind even if 4 out of 5 are fastballs compared to a 100% one pitch guy, even mariano Rivera threw 10% other pitches.
If you can locate or if the team hitting is meh
Good news is that he talked to coaches and they agreed to let it all hang out. Will throw all 4 pitches from the get go.
Now it is a double header with lots of MLB scouts there. I love it when the pressure is less because they are there to see the "other" guy for a change.
Play ball!
@Good Knight posted:Good news is that he talked to coaches and they agreed to let it all hang out. Will throw all 4 pitches from the get go.
Now it is a double header with lots of MLB scouts there. I love it when the pressure is less because they are there to see the "other" guy for a change.
Play ball!
You mean that was the coaches idea? <smh>
TPM yes they usually make him throw only FB for the first time thru. I hate it but he can get by with it against most HS teams.
But my philosophy is to shut up unless I want to coach.
Is this strategy because your kid has an exceptional FB and the opponents hitting is suspect against plus FB? There's a logic here I am missing or the coaches have the lefty grove era pitching philosophy.
I think most hs coaches think kids can’t hit 90+ fastballs and that may have been true at one time, but it’s not anymore.
He has a 95 mph 2400 rpm fb, but the opponent is not only not suspect, they are states #1!
Well hell, problem solved! Coaches decided to start a pitcher that has never pitched a varsity game. That should work. <smh>
@baseballhs posted:I think most hs coaches think kids can’t hit 90+ fastballs and that may have been true at one time, but it’s not anymore.
One of the things I found to be the most frustrating about HS coaches is that their mentality was to coach to the bottom of the roster - and the reality is that if you look at ALL HS players, it’s true that most can’t hit 90. The better players can but the average HS player can’t. So HS coaching strategies tend to apply to the average player more than the good player. For example, lots of HS coaches emphasize hitting the ball on the ground. The reason they do that is they believe that it gives the hitter a better chance of getting on base. They know that an average (or below average) HS infielder isn’t going to field the ball cleanly, make an accurate throw, and have the throw caught near as often as a fly ball will be caught. But if your son is a college level hitter that can drive the ball, the “hit the ball on the ground” is not a good approach - and it can be incredibly frustrating if a good hitter is forced to play the game in a way that’s below his level of ability.
@adbono posted:One of the things I found to be the most frustrating about HS coaches is that their mentality was to coach to the bottom of the roster - and the reality is that if you look at ALL HS players, it’s true that most can’t hit 90. The better players can but the average HS player can’t. So HS coaching strategies tend to apply to the average player more than the good player. For example, lots of HS coaches emphasize hitting the ball on the ground. The reason they do that is they believe that it gives the hitter a better chance of getting on base. They know that an average (or below average) HS infielder isn’t going to field the ball cleanly, make an accurate throw, and have the throw caught near as often as a fly ball will be caught. But if your son is a college level hitter that can drive the ball, the “hit the ball on the ground” is not a good approach - and it can be incredibly frustrating if a good hitter is forced to play the game in a way that’s below his level of ability.
You want to provide some data and statistical evidence to back this claim up? You are literally lumping a group of guys into one basket without any evidence other than what you think. That's pretty dumb
@coach2709 posted:You want to provide some data and statistical evidence to back this claim up? You are literally lumping a group of guys into one basket without any evidence other than what you think. That's pretty dumb
I realize that what I said doesn’t apply to every HS coach. But it does apply to a lot of them - and I know this because more than one HS coach has told me that’s their philosophy. So it’s not just based on what I think and what I have seen.
There are just under 15,000 high school baseball teams in the United States. You need to define what "apply to a lot of them" means because there is no way on Earth you can say that you have encountered 7,500 of them to even say HALF of them claim this. You are literally making all this up because I seriously doubt that you have put the time into proving this.
@adbono posted:One of the things I found to be the most frustrating about HS coaches is that their mentality was to coach to the bottom of the roster - and the reality is that if you look at ALL HS players, it’s true that most can’t hit 90. The better players can but the average HS player can’t. So HS coaching strategies tend to apply to the average player more than the good player. For example, lots of HS coaches emphasize hitting the ball on the ground. The reason they do that is they believe that it gives the hitter a better chance of getting on base. They know that an average (or below average) HS infielder isn’t going to field the ball cleanly, make an accurate throw, and have the throw caught near as often as a fly ball will be caught. But if your son is a college level hitter that can drive the ball, the “hit the ball on the ground” is not a good approach - and it can be incredibly frustrating if a good hitter is forced to play the game in a way that’s below his level of ability.
Most coaches will leave the good players alone though, they are coaching the worse players and let the good players do their thing.
@coach2709 posted:There are just under 15,000 high school baseball teams in the United States. You need to define what "apply to a lot of them" means because there is no way on Earth you can say that you have encountered 7,500 of them to even say HALF of them claim this. You are literally making all this up because I seriously doubt that you have put the time into proving this.
You can believe what you want. I’m relating what I have seen in large HS programs and what I have been told by some HS coaches. This topic has also come up in conversations I have had with college coaches and hitting instructors (with pro ball experience). I don’t make things up and I also don’t have to prove anything to you.
@adbono posted:You can believe what you want. I’m relating what I have seen in large HS programs and what I have been told by some HS coaches. This topic has also come up in conversations I have had with college coaches and hitting instructors (with pro ball experience). I don’t make things up and I also don’t have to prove anything to you.
No you don't have anything to prove to me or anybody else but your name dropping and making outlandish claims that you cannot back up don't help your credibility any
@coach2709 posted:No you don't have anything to prove to me or anybody else but your name dropping and making outlandish claims that you cannot back up don't help your credibility any
If your experience is different than mine that doesn’t make me wrong. You are entitled to your own opinions - as out of touch and uninformed as they may be.
@adbono posted:If your experience is different than mine that doesn’t make me wrong. You are entitled to your own opinions - as out of touch and uninformed as they may be.
If your experience is different than mine that doesn't me wrong as well if you want to go that route. But speaking of out of touch try not to forget that you're claiming how it is for the vast majority of high school coaches when it is literally impossible to take at best anecdotal evidence by your own admission and use it as proof........while trying to name drop to sound more important.
@coach2709 posted:If your experience is different than mine that doesn't me wrong as well if you want to go that route. But speaking of out of touch try not to forget that you're claiming how it is for the vast majority of high school coaches when it is literally impossible to take at best anecdotal evidence by your own admission and use it as proof........while trying to name drop to sound more important.
Jesus, dude! Give it a rest. Slow day in Hooterville or what?!