Yes, didn't mean to imply that metrics is what matters. For us it is just another tool in evaluation, but not everything. In fact, son is not what we call a "showcase warrior" (an individual who has excellent numbers from showcases, but can't produce in actual games.)
The high school season is short. My son’s team played the first games a week after tryouts. The coaches have a reasonably good idea what their lineup, pitching rotation and roster will be going in. Changes are more likely to be because someone failed than a bench player improving.
The bench player needs to participate in every practice like it’s the seventh game of the World Series. He has to stay physically and mentally prepared to take advantage of the opportunity when someone fails.
One pinch hitting or one batter relief appearance may change the player’s status. At the least a positive result leads to another opportunity to prove himself.
@anotherparent posted:My son was on varsity as a freshman, but didn't play much. He didn't understand all of the decisions. I know he had an exit interview with the coach, but I don't know/remember what he said, or what the coach said (getting it filtered through a 15-year-old - hmmph). Sophomore year and after he was a starter, he played different roles each year, depending on the other players and what the team needed.
I agree with PF that many coaches are put on the defensive by any type of question about playing time. And how can a player or coach talk about this without mentioning other players? It's the right thing for a coach not to talk about other players, so then he necessarily has to be vague: get stronger, faster, etc.
Some great responses on this thread from 2017: https://community.hsbaseballwe...king-to-coach?page=1
Swampboy's post is a must read.
This topic always garners good dialog and several advice gems as is the case with this thread.
HOWEVER... The OP stated from the get go...
"... However before the games started the coach told him that he would be starting and alternate between his primary position and OF."
The coach is already fully aware of his "primary position". A coach doesn't forget that a player catches. There is a reason he isn't getting time there in this set of circumstances. The only dialog the player might consider having in this instance is to maybe offer catching pens if needed.
If the young player has some skills, keeps at it with the extra catching work and the passion sticks, it is likely that he will earn other opportunities down the road. But there are no guarantees. Just as the OP mentioned he is moving up with travel ball and the position is very competitive, the same may be true as he makes his way into the next level, high school, and beyond. The funnel usually narrows, not widens. The competition will grow and improve. The player just has to do everything in his power to assure his growth curve is sharper than all others. Oh, and hit. And be a thousand percent willing to contribute however the team needs.
A very interesting story from "60 Minutes". The game of baseball teaches adjustment in life. Coaches need training in "Social Psychology"
https://www.grant.kyschools.us...loads/9_1_20_Cut.pdf
Bob
@Consultant posted:A very interesting story from "60 Minutes". The game of baseball teaches adjustment in life. Coaches need training in "Social Psychology"
https://www.grant.kyschools.us...loads/9_1_20_Cut.pdf
Bob
You almost lost me at “60 Minutes” - a show that I used to enjoy before political bias took it over. But I digress.
I read the stories in the link with great interest. And to me those stories illustrate exactly what is wrong with the youth of today. They have never been allowed to fail. They have never been told they weren’t good enough for something they wanted. Mommy and Daddy have made sure that didn’t happen. And as a result we have a generation of soft, entitled kids that expect everything they want to be handed to them. Life is not fair. Life involves a lot of failure - just as baseball does. That’s why baseball is a great metaphor for life. In reading those stories, the common thread us that an early in life “failure” spurned them on to achieve great things later in life. That is certainly a lesson that is a good and appropriate reminder that kids need to be allowed to fail - so they can grow from the experience
@adbono posted:You almost lost me at “60 Minutes” - a show that I used to enjoy before political bias took it over. But I digress.
I read the stories in the link with great interest. And to me those stories illustrate exactly what is wrong with the youth of today. They have never been allowed to fail. They have never been told they weren’t good enough for something they wanted. Mommy and Daddy have made sure that didn’t happen. And as a result we have a generation of soft, entitled kids that expect everything they want to be handed to them. Life is not fair. Life involves a lot of failure - just as baseball does. That’s why baseball is a great metaphor for life. In reading those stories, the common thread us that an early in life “failure” spurned them on to achieve great things later in life. That is certainly a lesson that is a good and appropriate reminder that kids need to be allowed to fail - so they can grow from the experience
When I played there wasn’t a travel group for every age. I played 9-12 LL majors (players had to make teams), 13-15 Babe Ruth (players had to make teams and 16-18 Legion (multiple high schools representing one Legion).
In LL I had to wait my turn just to play. There’s wasn’t minimum playing time then. I got ten at bats at age nine and struck out eight of them. Those 12yo pitchers who were 5’9” throwing 65-70 were scary. I became a full time (every inning player) at eleven. I wasn’t a full time pitcher until twelve. Then I was the 5’7” kid throwing upper sixties.
At thirteen in Babe Ruth I was a first time 60/90 player on the field with high school freshmen. I played most of the time. But it was a struggle at times. Being sixteen on Legion was the first time I didn’t feel overwhelmed as a younger player.
Early in my sixteen year old season I sat two straight games. I walked away from the field blowing on my glove like I was blowing off the dust. All my father said, “Don’t like sitting. Do better in practice.”
Besides adbono, has anyone else actually read what was in the link that Bob posted? It's great stuff.
I agree...definitely worth the read.
@Consultant posted:A very interesting story from "60 Minutes". The game of baseball teaches adjustment in life. Coaches need training in "Social Psychology"
https://www.grant.kyschools.us...loads/9_1_20_Cut.pdf
Bob
Bumping this in hopes that more people will take the time to read it. It’s great stuff that many can relate to. I certainly can. I was cut from the Junior High basketball team in 7th grade. For the entire next year I was in our driveway practicing - even if I had to shovel snow to be able to dribble the ball. I was determined to make the team in 8th grade. And I did, but I hardly got to play. Then we moved to Texas, I had a growth spurt, and my determination started to pay dividends. My HS (at the time) was a basketball powerhouse and the practice sessions were grueling. I continued to work hard and turned into a very good HS basketball player. But more than anything I turned into a better overall athlete, which ultimately paid off in baseball. So just like the stories in Bob’s post, my work ethic was established early on - and it was fueled by failing to achieve something I wanted as an adolescent.
These topics that pop up every so often about players not getting to play their primary position, don't get at bats, don't get get enough innings just drives me crazy. It happens to everyone. In MS, in travel ball, in HS, in college, in professional ball. Just keep grinding, keep working hard everyday, when your time comes, be the star!
Great story from last night's game inspired me to write the above. It's about Deric Fabian, brother of Jud Fabian. As a freshman ( yes, Florida plays freshman) last year Deric played regularly at 3rd base but lost his primary position when he began to make too many errors and not have productive at bats.
Deric had a bad accident last fall in practice. It took some time to come around, he is fine now, but he never was able to get back to playing on a regular basis.
So last weekend Florida's star SS suffered a concussion when sliding into second base. He did not pass concussion protocol to play last night.
Guess who got to be the SS? Guess who was the star of the game and helped Florida to shut out Vandy?
You guessed right, Deric Fabian!
@TPM posted:Swampboy's post is a must read.
It was a great one!
Swampboy: “I also advise players against asking coaches where they need to improve in order to get some playing time. If you really don't know, ask your teammates instead. They do know, and they'll be glad to tell you where you suck. ”
@TexasLefty posted:It was a great one!
“I also advise players against asking coaches where they need to improve in order to get some playing time. If you really don't know, ask your teammates instead. They do know, and they'll be glad to tell you where you suck. ”
Then there's also the time your teammates come up and ask why the heck you're not playing, or why you were taken out, or that you should be out there instead of ____.
@Momball11 posted:Then there's also the time your teammates come up and ask why the heck you're not playing, or why you were taken out, or that you should be out there instead of ____.
That can be true too. But usually only gets traction if the starters are saying it. I don’t think there is a kid on the bench that doesn’t think he should be playing or at least be given more of a shot.
I loved Consultant's article, as usual. But I wonder if you could also write one about kids whose playing dreams were crushed and who collapsed personally as a result? I can certainly think of such cases (or one case because of injury). So the question is, what is it that causes some people to turn failure into success?
Is it, as per this thread, a kid who will take the opportunity to advocate for himself with his coach? Or is it something else?
Parent
failure is when I was at Ft Campbell jump school. Will the chute open? Since our Army Company won the Post Softball championship the General assured my chute would open.
This was 15 days after our invitation to the College WS. MSU also won the Rose Bowl the same year. Powerful teams in the Big 10. In one year, I graduated with no honors, play in College WS, go to boot camp and assign to the New Mexico desert
at WSPG and a game with Willie Mays team.
Baseball teaches a player to adjust.
Bob
Bob I also am a proud graduate of Benning School for Wayward Boys and Ft Campbell. I bet we are the only ones here that know what WSPG is! First visit there I thought the heat rising from the blacktop was strange. I then realized it was thousand of tarantulas!!
GoodKnight;
Yes, they were in the batter's box, when we played in Silver City, NM.
The desert wind "sandblasted" my glasses. We learned to adjust and enjoy the opportunity to experience new situations. The wind and light air [5,000 ft evaluation] added 50' to a fly ball.
You and I were taught the art of "independence" at an early age.
Bob
@Good Knight posted:Bob I also am a proud graduate of Benning School for Wayward Boys and Ft Campbell. I bet we are the only ones here that know what WSPG is! First visit there I thought the heat rising from the blacktop was strange. I then realized it was thousand of tarantulas!!
The centerfielder (and RHP), star RB and friend from High School recently retired. His last assignment was to lead the 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell as acting senior commander and was a 3-star brig. General. With him in CF and me in LF nothing ever hit the ground, but mainly because he was a beast. He played for Army in college too.
Gunner who was that?
A friend of mine also commanded 101 and later became Vice Chief of Staff of the ARMY. He flew the Rangers into Iraq ahead of the invasion to destroy radars.
Bob
"You and I were taught the art of "independence" at an early age."
I'll. say. The ARMY drafted me the day I graduated from IOWA. Paid me $43 the first month.
@anotherparent posted:I loved Consultant's article, as usual. But I wonder if you could also write one about kids whose playing dreams were crushed and who collapsed personally as a result? I can certainly think of such cases (or one case because of injury). So the question is, what is it that causes some people to turn failure into success?
Is it, as per this thread, a kid who will take the opportunity to advocate for himself with his coach? Or is it something else?
Advocate? Lets define this so we are all speaking the same language. My definition of advocate is beat out the other kid playing your favored primary position. Have a better and more accurate throwing arm. Hit better. Hit farther. Run faster. Field better. Pitch better. Show better baseball instincts and IQ. Yes, life is not fair. There are players who every parent and kid on the team "think" should be playing the primary position yet the coach does otherwise. Are we to pout about that? Talk behind the coach's back about what a horrible decision-maker and person he is? Coaches are just as fallible as the players they coach. Tough job no matter how skilled. Some of the players and parents will favor the coach and some will disagree.
Regarding the player talking to the coach...
What exactly is the player supposed to say in words (advocate) to change the coach's mind? Coach all the parents and teammates agree that I am the better player and thus I should be starting? I have worked twice as hard as the other kid so now you should let me play the position? I cannot think of a good way to advocate. It forces the coach to explain one player over another if the "advocating" player persists. Maybe the coach knows the kid playing the primary position is decent there but horrible somewhere else. Team considerations can outweigh pure, straight-up talent evaluation at one given position.
I am not trying to be a wise-guy here. For those that see no harm in speaking to the coach, please respond with the types of questions you think might be appropriate.
@Good Knight posted:Gunner who was that?
A friend of mine also commanded 101 and later became Vice Chief of Staff of the ARMY. He flew the Rangers into Iraq ahead of the invasion to destroy radars.
Scott Brower
Well, I agree with that. My son was playing in the field but DHed for freshman year and half of sophomore year, on the varsity. He was frustrated, freshman year he said nothing. Sophomore year he was still frustrated; we, as parents, wondered whether he could talk to the coach. I think that's when I first found HSBBW through google. I read on here that a player could ask the coach how he should improve to get more at-bats. It was probably a thread just like this one, with the same set of opinions. We were terrified that this was the wrong thing to do, finally I asked his hitting instructor whether that was an o.k. thing to do. The guy said "of course" with an implied "why hasn't he done this already?" So my son did, I think actually he talked to the assistant coach. I'm sure he did not phrase it in terms of other players. He was put in the lineup more, hit well at the end of the season. He was also pitching quite a bit.
But what I would have liked from coaches would have been more opennness. If they had said to him, look, you are hitting mostly grounders in practice and in games, and we need to see more line drives, he would have known what was going on, and what he had to do. But, to my knowledge (at least, what he shared with me), they didn't tell him anything like that. So it was all guessing on his part, and probably he was guessing wrong.
It all worked out in the end. I think he knows now what was going on back then, and agrees with it. But that didn't help in the moment, so I understand the people who have these questions.
My kid wasn't playing as much as he wanted on his 15U travel team. We encouraged him to talk to the coach, but to do so in a way that was team-oriented, e.g., "I think I could really help the team if ...", as opposed to "I want to play more". While perhaps a subtle distinction, the coach really appreciated the team-first nature of the communication. He did start playing him more and he's been a regular starter ever since. This approach might not work in all circumstances, but it aligns the coach and player in a team-first conversation, as opposed to a you against me conversation. Anyway, one example of successful advocacy...
Almost everyone that has ever coached talks about the relationships with their players being the thing that endures - and the thing that is ultimately the most important. But relationships are a two way street. A coach can’t always be the one to initiate it. Sometimes a relationship begins when a player shows enough courage to respectfully approach a coach about having a conversation. Sometimes that’s exactly what a coach is wanting to see in a player - the confidence to stand up for himself. There is no absolute right or wrong answer. It depends on the situation and you better have a good read on it before doing anything.
So framing this from a parents perspective. You have a player who has worked hard really pretty much all year. In the off season you discuss as a family what you can afford time and money wise and plan out a training schedule. But you are not super knowledgeable about developing a soon to be High school player so you make some mistakes. Perhaps get lessons with the wrong teachers or aggressively train for a position you don't end up playing.
You are in the dark about how your son is progressing due to inexperience. But he works hard and wants to play in college so you want to do things right.
A short conversation with the coach could end up really helping a player focus on the appropriate training and set a plan for improvement.
@BB328 posted:So framing this from a parents perspective. You have a player who has worked hard really pretty much all year. In the off season you discuss as a family what you can afford time and money wise and plan out a training schedule. But you are not super knowledgeable about developing a soon to be High school player so you make some mistakes. Perhaps get lessons with the wrong teachers or aggressively train for a position you don't end up playing.
You are in the dark about how your son is progressing due to inexperience. But he works hard and wants to play in college so you want to do things right.
A short conversation with the coach could end up really helping a player focus on the appropriate training and set a plan for improvement.
Whether or not your premise is a good one depends entirely on the capability of the HS coach you are dealing with. A conversation like that with a really good HS coach could be very helpful. On the other hand, a conversation with many HS coaches could actually do more harm than good.
What does he want to discuss, more playing time or position change?
At this point neither, he's a starter who plays most innings and has accepted that his position is wherever the coach needs him. Son is just doing what he is told. Just getting the daily practices, becoming more comfortable playing a new position, coach holding them accountable for each other, and bonding with his teammates has made it worthwhile so far.
As a less seasoned parent I just wanted learn what was appropriate so I could advise my son. He was very frustrated at the beginning of the season but hanging back seems to be the right move so far.
I do wish more coaches offered end of the season assessments at a MS and HS level. I could only see it benefitting the program in sense that the players getting better helps the program. In our town they seem to really care about their program, have experienced coaches, take pride in it.
IMO, It's never wrong to ask a coach for input on what's needed or missing in taking the next level step - what are the top 2 or 3 things I can do to improve? That's a low profile way to start a discussion, and let the coach determine the direction. If that creates an issue, then he's not really a coach.
Thank you for the better explanation about your original post. I have a better understanding of what you are asking.
Since your son is playing on a regular basis and accepts that he will play where coach needs him, he is learning a very important lesson, that there is no i in team.
Hang in there, I think he will be fine and more importantly so will you.