I think it is hard for all of us parents to generalize about HS baseball coaches when for the most part we have had close contact with really only ONE - the one our kid plays for. Personally my son has played for exactly ONE HS program and ONE DFW Select team so it is hard for me to comment on coaching attitudes and behavior in a broad sense.
I can tell you this - I have been extremely happy with mys son's select team coaches AND his HS coaches. For that reason I hate to see everyone paint these men with a broad stroke.
And as someone else said, there is going to be politics in baseball at the HS level AND the college level. Instead of interfering with the coaches you might want to teach your son how to act like a man and deal with it directly with his coach. It will be a skill that will serve him well in sports AND in the working world when he has a real job (remember "office" politics?)
What I want to know is why don't we ever hear from a parents whose sons are playing over one of these players who is better. There must be plenty of them, judging from what I have read here for year.
My guess, is that the field is not as slanted as many believe, especially those whose sons are watching from the bench. And one thing I never use as a guage is statistics. Your eyes tell you (and the team) more accurately who is better, or, more precisely, who is more valuable to the lineup of a given team.
My guess, is that the field is not as slanted as many believe, especially those whose sons are watching from the bench. And one thing I never use as a guage is statistics. Your eyes tell you (and the team) more accurately who is better, or, more precisely, who is more valuable to the lineup of a given team.
I have often been intrigued by this if he is a senior he plays. If a kid is a junior or even a soph why would you not play him if he is better?
Crawdad,
You're right, of course, my only contact w/ any HS baseball program has been through my eldest son. I was sort of divining what I felt were some of the approaches of various HS coaches (as articulated by some coaches who have weighed in on this topic, as well as some parents who have observed the process).
The only point I was trying to make was that there can be different, yet still entirely legitimate approaches...some coaches make judgments based primarily on degree of skill/talent, while some consider other factors such as effort/age/willingness to have worked their way through the ranks, etc.. Personally, I don't have a problem with any of these...
You're right, of course, my only contact w/ any HS baseball program has been through my eldest son. I was sort of divining what I felt were some of the approaches of various HS coaches (as articulated by some coaches who have weighed in on this topic, as well as some parents who have observed the process).
The only point I was trying to make was that there can be different, yet still entirely legitimate approaches...some coaches make judgments based primarily on degree of skill/talent, while some consider other factors such as effort/age/willingness to have worked their way through the ranks, etc.. Personally, I don't have a problem with any of these...
I love to play teams that reward playing time by seniority. They usually are pathetic. No different than a business that puts people in posistions of authortity based on time served instead of productivity and ability. In our program playing time and a place on the team is earned from day to day game to game year to year. The best nine play. You dont graduate into a starting role you earn it.
Coach May, Great post!! I agree. As a baseball parent over the years I have done and said some things that may have influenced coaches (in a subtle way) but I have always thought my primary responsibility was to set a good example and to have a positive influence on my son...not... control each and every situation.
As a side note let me add something about players and their ability to talk to coaches. Many times I read posts that suggest a player talk to a coach about position/playing time “problems”. That is a tall order. Last season my son (college junior)was asked to give up catching and be a weekend starter on the mound. He really didn’t want to pitch so I suggested he talk to his coach about it. He quickly informed me that talking to the coach about it was NOT an option. The coach pulled him from catching and he pitched the rest of the season....he never discussed it with his coach.
Fungo
As a side note let me add something about players and their ability to talk to coaches. Many times I read posts that suggest a player talk to a coach about position/playing time “problems”. That is a tall order. Last season my son (college junior)was asked to give up catching and be a weekend starter on the mound. He really didn’t want to pitch so I suggested he talk to his coach about it. He quickly informed me that talking to the coach about it was NOT an option. The coach pulled him from catching and he pitched the rest of the season....he never discussed it with his coach.
Fungo
Regarding approaching a HS coach, my son's select coach told us to go to two weeks of practices first, rain or shine cold or hot and observe.
By doing this I have a good understanding of where my son fits in compared to the other kids.
By doing this I have a good understanding of where my son fits in compared to the other kids.
Will, the problem is, which player is actually "better"? When I look at a group of players, I can tell which one is faster, which one gets a better jump, which one has a stronger throwing arm, which one has a more accurate throwing arm, which one hits the ball farther when he pulls it, which one hits better to the opposite field, which one hits better for average, which one gets on base more often, etc. Except when I'm wrong, because the last couple of times when they practiced or played I wasn't there, or a kid suddenly gets "hot" or "cold" or whatever.
It always cracks me up when people confidently announce that Johnnie is "better" than Joe. Around here pretty much all the players competing for positions and playing time are pretty darn good. Most of them are better at one or more aspects of the game than the other players they're competing with for playing time at their position - and vice-versa.
Having said that, I'll, wade into the "senior" controversy with this: I think that a returning starter has to be beaten out for his spot - clearly - before you bench him for a younger player. My reason for that is that I've seen a lot of cases where the new phenom was perceived as "better" mostly because he was "new" - and being judged as better based on his theoretical potential, while the senior was being measured by boring old reality. So I give the seniors the benefit of the doubt - to a point.
It always cracks me up when people confidently announce that Johnnie is "better" than Joe. Around here pretty much all the players competing for positions and playing time are pretty darn good. Most of them are better at one or more aspects of the game than the other players they're competing with for playing time at their position - and vice-versa.
Having said that, I'll, wade into the "senior" controversy with this: I think that a returning starter has to be beaten out for his spot - clearly - before you bench him for a younger player. My reason for that is that I've seen a lot of cases where the new phenom was perceived as "better" mostly because he was "new" - and being judged as better based on his theoretical potential, while the senior was being measured by boring old reality. So I give the seniors the benefit of the doubt - to a point.
My sons HS coach believed in the senior playing even if not that good---don't ask em why because I cannot tell you why--it did not affect my son because he played as a soph and the frosh year on the JV was a great transition for him in the first year of HS.
At our school, the 5-year seniors (8th graders can play HS ball in our city) are starters. They really have to mess up to lose their position. The 4-year seniors are pretty much judged on ability, but the coach will show some preferential treatment to them. Seniors that have less than 4-years are treated like everybody else. In most cases we have more Juniors than seniors and the Juniors have to work really hard to keep their starting positions. Hustling sophomores, actually are bumped up pretty quick. I was wondering out loud one day about this while we were working in concessions and the booster president told me the following:
The is so the Juniors will respect the Seniors (team captain, etc.). Because we usually only have 4 or 5 Seniors still in the program each year, the Juniors know that we can't field a Varsity team without them. So to keep them from getting cocky, the Juniors know that a sophomore can take their spot in a hearbeat if they mess up.
As far as talking to the coach about playing time, a parent should NEVER do that, and in our school's case, the players probably shouldn't either. The ones that do the best do what they are told, when they are told, no questions asked and hustle 110% all the time.
The is so the Juniors will respect the Seniors (team captain, etc.). Because we usually only have 4 or 5 Seniors still in the program each year, the Juniors know that we can't field a Varsity team without them. So to keep them from getting cocky, the Juniors know that a sophomore can take their spot in a hearbeat if they mess up.
As far as talking to the coach about playing time, a parent should NEVER do that, and in our school's case, the players probably shouldn't either. The ones that do the best do what they are told, when they are told, no questions asked and hustle 110% all the time.
I will talk with parents about playing time if they so wish to talk in private---if they don't agree with reasons they can pack up and go home--and if you talk to the player he will tell you the guy in front of him is better--the kids know
Well, I'll throw my $.02 into the ring. I'm one who did confront a coach, and in retrospect it was NOT in my son's best interest for me to do so.
The situation was not directly playing time, but indirectly I suppose it was related. My son was under this coach for two years. The coach obviously disliked my son, and in all candor, at times my son's frustration with the situation got the better of him. And it finally got the better of me as well. The issue that I confronted the coach on was his prejudicial treatment of my son. If my son made one mistake, not even necessarily an error, but one mistake and he would be pulled. At the same time, multiple other players would make 3, 4, even 5 errors in one game and would never have a word said to them or have their playing time adversely affected in any way. The straw that broke the camel's back came when he pulled my son for not getting a bunt down. This on a team where virtually none of the players were consistently successful in bunting situations.
In anger, I confronted the coach after the game for his prejudicial treatment of my son. Of course, he denied it, but he did stop treating my son differently than he did the other players. He also cut his playing time. For the balance of the season, no matter what the circumstance, my son only played every other game.
In retrospect, I wish that I had not confronted the coach. At least then he would have had the opportunity to play as long as he didn't make any errors and didn't strike out. (A bit of an exageration, but not much!)
Would it have been better for my son to talk to the coach? No, that really wasn't a reasonable option. Was it really necessary for me to talk to him? I honestly don't know, it seemed like it at the time. If I had it to do over, I think I still would have talked to him because what he was doing was unquestionably wrong, and was harmful to some of the kids. But I should have done so at a different time, in a different environment, when I was not as emotionally engaged in the events and circumstances. And I probably should have used more mediating rather than confrontational language.
I hope my experience may help someone else.
The situation was not directly playing time, but indirectly I suppose it was related. My son was under this coach for two years. The coach obviously disliked my son, and in all candor, at times my son's frustration with the situation got the better of him. And it finally got the better of me as well. The issue that I confronted the coach on was his prejudicial treatment of my son. If my son made one mistake, not even necessarily an error, but one mistake and he would be pulled. At the same time, multiple other players would make 3, 4, even 5 errors in one game and would never have a word said to them or have their playing time adversely affected in any way. The straw that broke the camel's back came when he pulled my son for not getting a bunt down. This on a team where virtually none of the players were consistently successful in bunting situations.
In anger, I confronted the coach after the game for his prejudicial treatment of my son. Of course, he denied it, but he did stop treating my son differently than he did the other players. He also cut his playing time. For the balance of the season, no matter what the circumstance, my son only played every other game.
In retrospect, I wish that I had not confronted the coach. At least then he would have had the opportunity to play as long as he didn't make any errors and didn't strike out. (A bit of an exageration, but not much!)
Would it have been better for my son to talk to the coach? No, that really wasn't a reasonable option. Was it really necessary for me to talk to him? I honestly don't know, it seemed like it at the time. If I had it to do over, I think I still would have talked to him because what he was doing was unquestionably wrong, and was harmful to some of the kids. But I should have done so at a different time, in a different environment, when I was not as emotionally engaged in the events and circumstances. And I probably should have used more mediating rather than confrontational language.
I hope my experience may help someone else.
Let me tell you a different side to the coin--- when my son was 16 years of age he was on a summer team that had three college freshman in the outfield where my son played---the first game my son doen't start and the Coach comes down between games to apologize to me for not playing my son--perhaps he anticipated a problem--I do not know-- no need for apologies --the boy is learning by just being on the team with the college kids---as it turned out between jobs etc that the college kids had, my son got into the second game and never left the lineup after that for the next three years
He had no problem regarding playing time as he expected that the college kids would start. Same thing when he got to college--he anticipated redshirting the first year.
I have always believed that you earn your playing time--it is not given to you-- and every situation is different. No two player situations are alike
He had no problem regarding playing time as he expected that the college kids would start. Same thing when he got to college--he anticipated redshirting the first year.
I have always believed that you earn your playing time--it is not given to you-- and every situation is different. No two player situations are alike
TR,
You contridict yourself with your last post.
Most of us dads don't run a Showcase/Select Baseball organization. Most of us wouldn't have a coach come down into the stands to appologize to us.
While I agree that it is not a good idea to talk to the coach....your situation shows us exactly how much politics there is in baseball.
You contridict yourself with your last post.
Most of us dads don't run a Showcase/Select Baseball organization. Most of us wouldn't have a coach come down into the stands to appologize to us.
While I agree that it is not a good idea to talk to the coach....your situation shows us exactly how much politics there is in baseball.
Montanadad
that is just the way it is. It does not make it right but. In some situations the "starters" get a little more rope. the kid busting his tail to get some time makes a mistake and some coaches get all over them. But a coach worth his salt can not have a kid constantly starting kicking the ball all over the place but it happens.Why who knows. but i believe a coach has to accentuate the positive with kids that see the field less than the "starters" that pat on the back when he did well will go a long way if called upon due to whatever circumstances later on. Your starters can most times absorb a kick in the rear after a bad performance because they most likely know they will be out there again. I feel you have to give your "second line guys their opportunities along the way. There may be non confeence games or situations where the score would dictate things. you can not expect the kid to be ready to fill in if he does not get some at bats and playing time.
that is just the way it is. It does not make it right but. In some situations the "starters" get a little more rope. the kid busting his tail to get some time makes a mistake and some coaches get all over them. But a coach worth his salt can not have a kid constantly starting kicking the ball all over the place but it happens.Why who knows. but i believe a coach has to accentuate the positive with kids that see the field less than the "starters" that pat on the back when he did well will go a long way if called upon due to whatever circumstances later on. Your starters can most times absorb a kick in the rear after a bad performance because they most likely know they will be out there again. I feel you have to give your "second line guys their opportunities along the way. There may be non confeence games or situations where the score would dictate things. you can not expect the kid to be ready to fill in if he does not get some at bats and playing time.
Kellerdad
Back then I was not anything more than a HS dad who was deeply involved in my home towns rec and sports dept.---there is no contradiction here--this team was not even in our twon
I was just indicatiung how some coaches do things when it comes to playing time
Back then I was not anything more than a HS dad who was deeply involved in my home towns rec and sports dept.---there is no contradiction here--this team was not even in our twon
I was just indicatiung how some coaches do things when it comes to playing time
I put up the original post, so far Natural has pretty much nailed my situation. Because he lives where football rules, same area as us. I would never speak to a coach at this level about his decisions for his team. Our family has already made plans to move from this school district before now. Due to many factors most are due to the I'm better than you attitude of the community as a whole. I don't want my kids to ever think that way. Other HS coaches I know who also know my son are elated we are moving and just want to know when and where. Maybe my glasses aren't so pink after all
Our 5-A school is football-centric also, the b.b. coaches are also f.b. coaches, and to some parents who show up and watch the games it might appear that f.b. players get better treatment.
But after going to the tryouts and practices I observed that the coaches really want to play the best 9 and let the best 9 hit. Out of 9 starters plus the dh 5-6 are football players.
Granted the f.b. players have first shot because the coaches know them, but all players are given a chance every practice to prove themselves. If a non-starter comes in and rips line drives during the on-field b.p., they will get a chance.
So, unless you have been there and seen it you don't know the whole story. If I based my opinion on what I saw at the games I would be off-base.
But after going to the tryouts and practices I observed that the coaches really want to play the best 9 and let the best 9 hit. Out of 9 starters plus the dh 5-6 are football players.
Granted the f.b. players have first shot because the coaches know them, but all players are given a chance every practice to prove themselves. If a non-starter comes in and rips line drives during the on-field b.p., they will get a chance.
So, unless you have been there and seen it you don't know the whole story. If I based my opinion on what I saw at the games I would be off-base.
I completely agree with P-Dog. If a younger player is even only a little better then the senior, I want the senior in there. That being said, as soon as the senior takes his position for granted and doesn't give 100%, he would be out of there. I say this even though my son was stuck behind seniors in the infield for two years. Yea I was upset about playing time, but he did get his fair share when I think back on it now. With rosters of 16 and more players, just about anything the coach does can be argued for and against. On the other hand, my son told me that if a player came onto the school team that was better than him, if it made the team better he would move to another poaition. This will be his senior year, he has ss all to himself because he earned it through hard work and effort (he was the MIP from the team last year). He didn't really enjoy sitting as much as he did, but he absolutely can't wait for the first game this year.
Another Texas poster.
I agree with all of the posts that the player must go to the coach. If that fails, there is no reason the parent shouldn't go - to get information, not to be confrontational. You would do the same if we were talking about math class and his grades, wouldn't you?
But the reality for those of us in Texas is that unless you are lucky enough to have a real baseball coach and an Athletic Director that backs baseball, the boys that do not play football will suffer. Football players will always get the extra time.
In several situations I am familiar with, the baseball (2nd sport) coach was primarily the linebacker coach. His LB's all made varsity and played - and many made lots of errors and stupid outs. Another time, the secondary coach was the baseball (2nd sport) coach. Any football secondary player was on varsity and playing. I know some of it was to reward the football players - the coach told them so. I also think it was partially because the coach was already familiar with their athletic abilities, so he favored the known over the unknown.
BTW, not playing football affected my son's HS baseball career, but I did not go to the coach (son would not hear of it). My son talked to the coach (although he never fully believed what he was told), worked his butt off and accepted the fact that life was not fair. That could be why he is still playing when 99% of his former teammates are not. He finished HS with a good relationship with the coach, although he was never a starter.
Good Luck to you and your son, Baseball 24-7. Tell him to hang in there and let him know it will be totally different whenever he gets a full-time baseball coach.
I agree with all of the posts that the player must go to the coach. If that fails, there is no reason the parent shouldn't go - to get information, not to be confrontational. You would do the same if we were talking about math class and his grades, wouldn't you?
But the reality for those of us in Texas is that unless you are lucky enough to have a real baseball coach and an Athletic Director that backs baseball, the boys that do not play football will suffer. Football players will always get the extra time.
In several situations I am familiar with, the baseball (2nd sport) coach was primarily the linebacker coach. His LB's all made varsity and played - and many made lots of errors and stupid outs. Another time, the secondary coach was the baseball (2nd sport) coach. Any football secondary player was on varsity and playing. I know some of it was to reward the football players - the coach told them so. I also think it was partially because the coach was already familiar with their athletic abilities, so he favored the known over the unknown.
BTW, not playing football affected my son's HS baseball career, but I did not go to the coach (son would not hear of it). My son talked to the coach (although he never fully believed what he was told), worked his butt off and accepted the fact that life was not fair. That could be why he is still playing when 99% of his former teammates are not. He finished HS with a good relationship with the coach, although he was never a starter.
Good Luck to you and your son, Baseball 24-7. Tell him to hang in there and let him know it will be totally different whenever he gets a full-time baseball coach.