Playing young guys

Great topic. I'm no HS coach and my 2017 son is a freshman at college, but that won't keep me from chiming in.

I have mixed feelings on kids playing up in HS. First off, a middle school kid would have to be amazing (a true no-doubt stud) to make, let alone play, let alone start on a HS V team (and that team would probably have to stink on ice too).

I'm not a fan of Fr playing V unless they play a lot. Not necessarily start, but they should be solid contributors, otherwise let them be leaders and get reps on JV.

Of course, you play the best 9 at that time. However, if two players are truly very close in what they can do NOW, and they are both on the roster, I generally support giving the upper classman a shot. Is this entitlement? Perhaps a little, but I'd call it: true push goes to the older player. Again, if an underclassman is better, he gets the opportunity.

As far as making the roster. In general, IMHO, junior year is the time to cut players, when cuts are needed, who have not developed enough to merit the spot. I'm not a fan of HS rosters with 30+ kids, and I've seen them. But if a hard-working kid sticks with the program and is a senior, AND there is room on the roster, let them stay and ride the bench. Just be honest about their role.

My son was a year behind a catcher whose uncle and brother were the starting catcher for our modest sized HS in NoVA. I was told by other parents that my son would play JV and be the back up until the other kid graduated. Half-way through my son's Soph. year he got the nod and the other player went to DH and 1B. And folded like a tent, batted like 0.100, and was livid about the demotion (I heard). He quit baseball and did not play his senior year, which did hurt the team.

It depends on how good the younger players are. The team that won our league last year had three freshmen starting (2 position players and 1 SP) -- all three are ranked in the PG Top 100 in their class, and all are committed to elite P5 programs. I think any coach who has a "rule" about not playing freshmen might change his rule when the right kid shows up.

I think they are better off playing and developing.  My son was pulled up 3-4 times as a freshman and was basically chasing foul balls.  In addition, he felt like the other guys didn't want him there...which they probably didn't. The bus rides were really awkward for him.  He ended up asking to just stay and play with his own team and turned down the invitation to go to playoffs.  This year he will go up and will be more accepted and be able to actually play.  If they can't hit off varsity and will have a dh, you are taking away their opportunity to grow as hitters, which will hurt you later.

We have a large school (4,000+) and Freshmen rarely make Varsity (a couple of exceptions in the past decade).  A few sophomores make Varsity - my son was one of them last year.  He and another played regularly.  But the other not so much, which caused a bit of consternation.  But then again, they saw higher level competition and played with travel team over the summer.  I'm with HShuler.  Put your best team out there regardless of age.  Younger kids will rise to the occasion.  Older ones will support the younger ones if they want to win.  Ultimately, Coach has to make the call on what's best for winning and his program.  All of the rest of us -- especially parents -- need to get in line and live with it. 

Best players play regardless of age. If a 14 year old is better than an upperclassman, then he starts.

however if there is no real difference between the 2. Play the older kid and work the younger one in to games to prepare him for the varsity competition.

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Coach_TV posted:

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

These kids are coming from travel teams who MAYBE have 15 players to a High School team of 20 or more players.  I can see having the young buck sitting on the bench going very wrong.  While I can agree it's important for the kids to understand that as they get older they will get less and less playing time, with more and more kids on the team, I do not think it's going to go well showing that fact to a 9th grader.

MANY of the JV players last year were in culture shock when they didn't play much.  And I don't think that is indicative of a bad attitude I think it truly was culture shock.  If I was the parent of a talented 9th grader being considered to sit on the bench at Varsity or play half of the JV games I would hope my kid was on JV. While high school baseball does need to have a team first mentality I wouldn't blame a kid for seeking out a home school team where he played in most of the games if all the HC had planned for him was riding the pine at the Varsity level.  It would be very difficult for a 14 year old to accept he's on a team but not playing, especially if he's a stud.

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

Just to clarify, there were around 25 Freshman trying out, the other 45 were 10-12, and many of the 10th graders trying out weren't on the team the previous year.

JV was 10 freshman, 7 Sophomores, 2 Juniors.

V was 3 Sophomores, 10 Juniors, 11 Seniors. 

Of those 11 seniors 8 went on to play in college, six in baseball and two in football. 

+1 Shuler. 

In my experience i've seen it work a few ways. Son's HS typically went with older guys (as CaCo's example) suggested.  My son was one of 3 "hybrid" players who as freshman made varsity but could pay down to JV or move up to Varsity. Funny thing is, the other two pretty much played varsity all season and he played down most of his frosh year, primarily pitching and then got called up to play varsity when the JV season ended. Of the others, one of them started varsity as a catcher all 4 years and was taken in the 11th spot MLB draft when he graduated and the other was a pitcher who was redshirted as a frosh at power 5 and quit his soph year and is no longer playing college ball. 

As a SS, an older kid played and pretty much beat out my kid. He couldn't hit or bunt. Played decent defense. My son was smaller and was probably same level of hitting..although i think he could have done better overall and certainly better at moving runners etc /bunting. Defensively, my son would make all the hard plays and make them look easy but the 4 hopper to short would get him tied up. I think leaving him down ultimately helped him grow as a pitcher but back then i wanted him to be the SS on varsity and did not get my way. 

As a pitcher, he dominated JV and was the #1. I think he had an ERA under 1...maybe a .079. I know these don't matter...back then we loved that s^&*. One thing i wondered about was if he could have had that year of pitching vs varsity level HS guys...would it have helped him be better? I think his PC would have been lower on varsity though as he would have been a bullpen guy. 

It all worked out in the end. I say play the best players, but coaches take a S$%*pile of criticism anyway and i'm not sure if you ever win that argument with the older kid/parent unless you win a lot and then again they won't even be happy if they weren't in that equation. I worked the concession grill, ended up announcing the home games for his junior and senior year and my wife was a teacher/coach at the HS (now an asst principal) and son played travel for the assist HS coach travel team all 4 years in HS so i bet you there were still folks who thought my son got preferential treatment due to that connection instead of his performance. You can't can't win.

One thing I've noticed through a lot of the post is Varsity coach and jr high and all different coaches.  We have 5 coaches total for 7-12 one of which is volunteer.  I as the head coach do head coaching stuff with varsity but I'm at every other game all the way down to help.  Other coaches are considered head coaches for J.V. and Middle school but they are younger guys in most cases that are also with me at the varsity level and ask me how I would like things done.  Just an observation is all.  We also have about 900 in our school and are in the second largest class in the state.

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Not 4000+, but more like 3,800 at ours.  Grades 9-12 all in one building.  Not a campus.  This was the preference of the community a few years back when we had a choice on building out a new campus or spending money remodeling the current school.  The community choose the remodel.  Our HS is considered one of the tops in the country academic wise but it really has the feel of a smaller school with a family atmosphere.  The community did not want to loose that. 

Many of the other large schools in our area have multiple buildings.  Normally frosh in one building and 10-12 in another.  There are a couple of larger schools that have a small college type of campus as well.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

When my older son was a frosh there were 115 kids trying out for Frosh baseball.  Two teams of 16 players on each team.  

By the time my younger one (4 years younger) got there the numbers had dwindled down to about 75.  LAX and shrinking population played a part.

fhobbs013 posted:

One thing I've noticed through a lot of the post is Varsity coach and jr high and all different coaches.  We have 5 coaches total for 7-12 one of which is volunteer.  I as the head coach do head coaching stuff with varsity but I'm at every other game all the way down to help.  Other coaches are considered head coaches for J.V. and Middle school but they are younger guys in most cases that are also with me at the varsity level and ask me how I would like things done.  Just an observation is all.  We also have about 900 in our school and are in the second largest class in the state.

...and I assume most schools are like this.  Our HC graduated from our school, lives in town, but teaches in another District.  He's early 30's, no kids.  Has absolutely no connection to the younger kids, even though our youth baseball program is really good and has a lot of good baseball guys that help run it.  Even when my son and the grade above him were younger and the coach knew they were coming up thru youth/Jr Hi, he never came to a game.  His dad (who had a state title coaching at another school) was heavily involved...knew the kids, came to games, etc.  HS...not once.  He has lost so many good athletes/players over the years because of people's stance that he "just doesn't care".  He isn't a bad coach...and actually does very well in a good league considering that if the best baseball kids would have kept playing his starting lineup would likely be 3-4 kids different every year. 

joes87 posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

When my older son was a frosh there were 115 kids trying out for Frosh baseball.  Two teams of 16 players on each team.  

By the time my younger one (4 years younger) got there the numbers had dwindled down to about 75.  LAX and shrinking population played a part.

Wow, those kind of numbers are amazing from a small town NW Ohio perspective lol.  We don't have 300 boys in the entire HS.  Last year's freshman class had 15 kids come out for baseball....that's by far the largest we've had....at least in the last 15+ years.  Typically it's 7-8.   Son's class had 5.  Of those 5....on a given day depending on who was pitching those 5 were our:

Starting SS,  #1 pitcher, sometime catcher

Starting Catcher, #2 pitcher

Starting CF,  #4 pitcher

Starting 2B

Backup Catcher, DH, #3 pitcher, sometime RF

Gotta have guys who can play multiple positions when you're in a small school lol

Coach_TV posted:

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

Because the younger play can develop more by playing than by sitting on the bench. That's the reason.

Anyway, there is intense competition for playing time, with or without the younger backup on the bench -- for example, this year the varsity will have (rough guess given that some are sophomores) between 9 and 12 players who will end up going D1 and a whole bunch of the other kids will play D3  (right now, 5 current D1 commits, and 4 seniors going D3). Plus, the program is run as a program. What I mean by that, is the coaching style and expectations of the JV coach are closely aligned with the varsity coach. A lot of times the teams will practice together. So it's not like being banished to Siberia.

2019Dad posted:

Coach_TV posted:

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

Because the younger play can develop more by playing than by sitting on the bench. That's the reason.

...

Regarding the bolded... This is a prevalent thought.  But, this is a two-edged sword and it is another situation where each individual brings a different set of circumstances.

If a player hasn't had a lot of competitive game experience or his skill set plays out well in practice but lacks in games, then yes, he should be developing by playing more games at the lower level.  However, if a player plays a lot of competitive travel, will likely face JV opponents that are weaker than he is accustomed and the coaching is deeper and better at V (all of which are often the case), then that player may very well be better off getting daily reps and instruction from those V coaches, playing inter-squad and practicing among those better V players.  Overall, he will develop more there.  He is getting his competitive game action in with travel (and don't forget, many travel teams lean toward little practice, lot's of games).  This can be a difficult situation for the player and parent to accept because this is often the first time the player has not been a key starter on the field.  But, in the big picture, can be better for him in many ways.

Most players on the V/JV bubble fall somewhere between these two scenarios and there are dozens of other factors that come into play.  If that second player is truly likely to see zero PT, that certainly tips the scales.  If he is your best depth option at some position/s and will likely at least get spot action, the program and team are better having him on V.

How will the team and program flourish most?  How will the individual flourish most?  It is a balance.

we have about 2200 kids 9-12, grad classes of just under 600 is standard. We have 70 plus kids for baseball tryouts every year since my boys have been involved in the program. Coach typically keeps 20 on Varsity 20 on JV and 15 freshman.

This year we have 3 pitchers D1 committed and 4 others that will pitching D3 or D2...and we aren't particularly special, that is kind of my reference point a ways back when I said very few if any freshman play varsity.

old_school posted:

we have about 2200 kids 9-12, grad classes of just under 600 is standard. We have 70 plus kids for baseball tryouts every year since my boys have been involved in the program. Coach typically keeps 20 on Varsity 20 on JV and 15 freshman.

This year we have 3 pitchers D1 committed and 4 others that will pitching D3 or D2...and we aren't particularly special, that is kind of my reference point a ways back when I said very few if any freshman play varsity.

Same.  Last year on JV my son faced a kid throwing 87, there was no room for him on Varsity.  Throwing 80 puts you on the bubble of JV/V in most schools in our division, usually landing on JV.  Whereas in many schools across the US 80mph is the stud varsity pitcher.  We have at least 6 kids throwing over 85, and 3 of those are throwing 90+ on V this year, and that is not uncommon.

Personally I think too much is made out of what game they go to. Practice is where kids truly develop. I understand the need for game reps, for sure, but that's not always my main concern. We tell the "tweener" kids they're going to play where we can get them 4 ABs a game (based on talent of course, which these kids have since they're the "tweeners"). If that's a varsity game, so be it. If it's JV, same story. We have some weaker teams in our district, so that impacts our decisions from week to week as well.

But all of our "good JV kids" practice with Varsity every day. They rep everything just like the varsity kids, defense baserunning, signs, dirt ball reads, everything. Hell, we only hit 18 kids in BP (not always, but our most often used BP format), and we have some of those JV kids hitting in groups and some seniors not hitting. Talent decides reps in practice, too.

Later in the year I'm more inclined to bring them to Varsity games even if I'm not sure they'll cross the lines, just to get used to the atmosphere and routine. They'll likely be with us for the playoffs so I want it to feel as normal as possible at that time.

fhobbs013 posted:

 

I also don't want to have to deal with all the drama from parents but I know thats coming just a matter of time.  To me if the younger kid is playing there shouldn't be any doubt he's better.  If we just win every game then no parents will complain right lol.   (I can dream right)

Not that you need advice, but if this is a concern for you, score as much as you can in practice. We normally score BP and defensive reps, and chart and score bullpens for our pitchers. It's obviously handy in decision making, but it is invaluable in parent meetings.

Parents will want to talk batting averages (which are minimally useful in a high school season) and summer ball stats, etc. When you can hand them a piece of paper showing their kids has the worst percentage in defensive reps, or is the 15th of 16 hitters in BP, they tend to have to find a new excuse other than "you're an idiot."

It helps kids in practice, too, especially those JV kids with you, in that they know that everything is being seen by the coaches. And competition in practice is king.

CaCO3Girl posted:

old_school posted:

we have about 2200 kids 9-12, grad classes of just under 600 is standard. We have 70 plus kids for baseball tryouts every year since my boys have been involved in the program. Coach typically keeps 20 on Varsity 20 on JV and 15 freshman.

This year we have 3 pitchers D1 committed and 4 others that will pitching D3 or D2...and we aren't particularly special, that is kind of my reference point a ways back when I said very few if any freshman play varsity.

Same.  Last year on JV my son faced a kid throwing 87, there was no room for him on Varsity.  Throwing 80 puts you on the bubble of JV/V in most schools in our division, usually landing on JV.  Whereas in many schools across the US 80mph is the stud varsity pitcher.  We have at least 6 kids throwing over 85, and 3 of those are throwing 90+ on V this year, and that is not uncommon.

We have around 2600 and 3 teams of around 22 each.  We had a sophomore last year who threw around 89 and didn't move up to varsity until the 3rd or 4th game.  My son threw 84-86 last year and was on freshman team.  It is competitive.  That said, he was happy on freshman team, played a lot, had fun. No complaints.  

ironhorse posted:

fhobbs013 posted:

 

I also don't want to have to deal with all the drama from parents but I know thats coming just a matter of time.  To me if the younger kid is playing there shouldn't be any doubt he's better.  If we just win every game then no parents will complain right lol.   (I can dream right)

Not that you need advice, but if this is a concern for you, score as much as you can in practice. We normally score BP and defensive reps, and chart and score bullpens for our pitchers. It's obviously handy in decision making, but it is invaluable in parent meetings.

Parents will want to talk batting averages (which are minimally useful in a high school season) and summer ball stats, etc. When you can hand them a piece of paper showing their kids has the worst percentage in defensive reps, or is the 15th of 16 hitters in BP, they tend to have to find a new excuse other than "you're an idiot."

It helps kids in practice, too, especially those JV kids with you, in that they know that everything is being seen by the coaches. And competition in practice is king.

Iron horse that is one thing we are going to do a lot more of than has ever been done in our program.  I have added an extra manager/stat guy to help with it.  He loves baseball is very smart but if he had to catch a ball we would take a lot of trips to the E.R.  He wanted to be a part of the program and I think he may help more than some of the guys that are starters by giving us concrete data we can use.

Social media has made this issue an even bigger mine field.  Freshman in the competitive travel ball circuit love to tweet things like "My new VARSITY uniform is sick!"  They don't care if they won't play on V, or if reps on JV will help in the long run, they just want to be recognized as making varsity.  Maybe they think it will help jumpstart their college recruiting too.  Their parents get in on the act too, posting all that stuff on Facebook.

Smitty28 posted:

Social media has made this issue an even bigger mine field.  Freshman in the competitive travel ball circuit love to tweet things like "My new VARSITY uniform is sick!"  They don't care if they won't play on V, or if reps on JV will help in the long run, they just want to be recognized as making varsity.  Maybe they think it will help jumpstart their college recruiting too.  Their parents get in on the act too, posting all that stuff on Facebook.

#blessed 

Seems like there are many opinions on this topic but I think its all relative to the school, the team, the coach and the player(s) in question. Last year, in his first season, our school's new head coach  decided to start a freshman on varsity for the first time in school history. His theory was if he was going to make varsity, he was going to play. This did not sit well with anyone in or outside of the program. This had nothing to do with the kid's talent (IMO, maybe not worthy of immediate play at the varsity level, but definitely should have moved up sometime later in the season), but everything to do with the player's maturity and game knowledge.

To the freshman player's credit, he played very well. Unfortunately his immaturity did kick in and his arrogance and "me first attitude" that all of knew would be his Achilles heel, took over.  It seems the freshman felt his on-field performance allowed him the luxury of having a "voice" in the dugout/locker room. The kind of role that traditionally (and rightly so) is taken on by upperclassmen. My son alluded to me that "some chairs and fists were thrown on several occasions".  Names of plaintiffs and defendants were withheld.  Team chemistry was non-existent for 2/3rd of the season and a team returning 7 seniors (5 of which were headed to D1 schools) started 2-10, finished strong but did not make the playoffs for the first time in 10 years.

So, no sweat off that freshman's back because he has three more years to return to the playoffs, right?  With five NLI signed Division 1 senior players (two pitchers) and three or four juniors and sophomores headed in that direction hoping to make a strong run in states, how important do you think it is to play an untested freshman immediately when there is so much time to work with? You have a group of guys with at least one season playing with one another, who know each other, have built somewhat of a trust and bond with one another, and rather than slowly introduce a new element to that system, you cause an explosion. Was important enough to talk to your seniors about it? New coach vs four yr players at well respected private school.

We had an anomaly last year in our league last year (considered one the top 2 in CA) where we had 7 freshman starters on the seven teams in our league. One team started 3, another two, one team had one and our team started one.  They all had great seasons in games during outside of league play. Keep in mind, coaches notoriously keep the pressure off because games are meaningless counting towards playoffs. Plus, they are not always playing powerhouse teams either. As soon as inter-league games started (keep in mind every team except two in this league had 3-5 Div 1 commits), freshman player batting averages dropped by 43%. In the field, error percentage rose by 56%.  The only shining spot was a freshman pitcher (already committed to power 5 school) was spectacular. He led the league with 10 wins and a 1.21 era. Came with a price though. He threw over 1000 pitches. Remember, still a freshman.

So, when I say it all depends on the situation you really have to put things in perspective. Is it worth it if there are options for the player? Are you taking the player away from his peer group at a time when he may need that time for mental growth? Is he ready for the grind? Do the coaches have the time it takes to groom/assist/even protect the freshman player? Is he ready to step up when it really means something?  It just depends...

cabbagedad posted:

2019Dad posted:

Coach_TV posted:

2019Dad posted:

At my son's HS the coaches are very upfront on these points at the annual parents meeting:

• If two players are viewed as comparable in the coaches' eyes, the younger player will get the playing time. The older player has to be better than the younger player (in the coaches' view) in order to win the job.
• But there is no reason to bring a younger player up to sit him on the bench. So the coaches will say "sometimes the backup is not on varsity"
• "Program -- Team -- Player, in that order"

P.S. -- it goes without saying that the better player will play. The tougher decision is when two plays are close -- roughly comparable. In that case, Younger >>> Older.

I highlighted part of your post and have a simple question...why?  In my opinion having the younger "backup" player sitting on the bench 1) Sends a message to the older player that his backup is sitting right on the bench ready to go and 2) Allows the younger player to learn the varsity coach's coaching style and expectations to better prepare him to play at the varsity level.

Because the younger play can develop more by playing than by sitting on the bench. That's the reason.

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Regarding the bolded... This is a prevalent thought.  But, this is a two-edged sword and it is another situation where each individual brings a different set of circumstances.

If a player hasn't had a lot of competitive game experience or his skill set plays out well in practice but lacks in games, then yes, he should be developing by playing more games at the lower level.  However, if a player plays a lot of competitive travel, will likely face JV opponents that are weaker than he is accustomed and the coaching is deeper and better at V (all of which are often the case), then that player may very well be better off getting daily reps and instruction from those V coaches, playing inter-squad and practicing among those better V players.  Overall, he will develop more there.  He is getting his competitive game action in with travel (and don't forget, many travel teams lean toward little practice, lot's of games).  This can be a difficult situation for the player and parent to accept because this is often the first time the player has not been a key starter on the field.  But, in the big picture, can be better for him in many ways.

Most players on the V/JV bubble fall somewhere between these two scenarios and there are dozens of other factors that come into play.  If that second player is truly likely to see zero PT, that certainly tips the scales.  If he is your best depth option at some position/s and will likely at least get spot action, the program and team are better having him on V.

How will the team and program flourish most?  How will the individual flourish most?  It is a balance.

More than one way to skin a cat, I suppose. But for game reps, there is no travel during HS season (in CA), so our coaches shy away from having a talented kid not play in games. Plus, JV is surprisingly competitive at the CIF-SS Division 1 level. 

 

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More than one way to skin a cat, I suppose. But for game reps, there is no travel during HS season (in CA), so our coaches shy away from having a talented kid not play in games. Plus, JV is surprisingly competitive at the CIF-SS Division 1 level. 

Yeah, 2019, we are in CIF-SS also but not D1...  JV level is not as consistently competitive.  I was referring to the fact that those players play travel games most of the year outside of the HS season so plenty of games are played then.

2019CubDad.....I get the issues you're describing, and some of the blame obviously goes to the kid...especially if he had the attitude issues as bad as you make it sound....BUT....where was the coach?  Chairs and fists in the locker room? C'mon, the coach has to shut that down IMMEDIATELY!!  If it happens once, fine....if it continues, it's on him.  Either he gets the upperclassmen on board if he feels they are to blame....if they won't, then it's on them.  If he feels it's the freshman, make a change...one way or the other he needs to handle it.   If he can't, then he has no business coaching HS kids. A team with that kind of talent going 2-10 is crazy.    I obviously don't know the guy....but I guess I would wonder if was  a "coach" or was he a "guy in a uniform" that got handed a bunch of top level travel kids every year and just had to throw them on the field to win games?

Agreed. I haven't had 5 D1 guys in the last 5 years combined? 2-10 sounds hard to do with that kind of talent. Not saying they win state, but no way their district/conference is that good.

Every kid coming into a HS program is not in the same situation. Every HS program is different. For some kids JV baseball is a huge step down in the level of competition they are used to. For others it's about right. You can hurt a kid by putting him in a situation he is not ready for and you can hurt a kid by not putting him in a situation he is ready for. The most important thing for me for a kid coming into a HS program is put a game plan in place for them. Where are they at? Where do they want to go? How can we get there? This is where you are. This is where you can go. Are you willing to do what it takes to get there?

For the player that would be taking a big step down in the level of competition by playing JV baseball competition being the man on JV vs having a role that is less than they are used to at the Varsity level. So many scenarios I don't believe you can just say "We do it like this." For me I want to challenge the young talented players who have played high competitive baseball. Though they are as or more skilled than older players the more mature savvy less talented player will "teach" them a lot. In many ways.

I don't believe players should be brought up to sit the bench. I believe they should have a significant role if you bring them up. I also don't believe in leaving a kid on JV so he can be the man when he can help your team win games at the Varsity level. The hope is that your JR's and Sr's are so talented that there is no way a Fr or So could unseat them. Of course you want the upper class guys to be the guys. But when that is not the case it's just not the case.

As a parent do you want your kid to play every inning, hit 3rd in the order and be the man on JV vs Play every other game, hit 8th in the order and scrap to stay on varsity? Can you see the bigger picture? Can your son see the bigger picture? Is there value in not seeing your name on the line up care every game? Is there value in having to fight to get in the line up? Is there value in learning that even though your as talented or more talented the bigger, stronger, faster more mature player can own you?

It's a call a coach has to make based on many scenarios and every kid's make up is different. For some I believe it's the right call. For others I believe it's not. If the best interest of the player's overall development and the programs best interest are one in the same it's really not that hard to do. And I believe what is best for that development of your players will ultimately be what is best for your program. Well I believe it should be.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

My son's school has 2,800 kids in HS plus 1,429 kids in grades 7 ad 8 which are in the same building. That's 4,237 at one school! There are numerous other schools within a 10-15 mile radius with similar numbers. It's crazy how dense the concentration of families and kids is in this area. That makes the competition for everything - academic, athletics, and extracurricular -- very strong. 

ironhorse posted:

Agreed. I haven't had 5 D1 guys in the last 5 years combined? 2-10 sounds hard to do with that kind of talent. Not saying they win state, but no way their district/conference is that good.

Sent you a PM

LBmom2021 posted:

Buckeye 2015 posted:

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Lol....I noticed that too.  We have less than 600....and 70 kids trying out as freshmen is crazy to me.  We're lucky if we have 30 in the program total....grades 9-12

My son's school has 2,800 kids in HS plus 1,429 kids in grades 7 ad 8 which are in the same building. That's 4,237 at one school! There are numerous other schools within a 10-15 mile radius with similar numbers. It's crazy how dense the concentration of families and kids is in this area. That makes the competition for everything - academic, athletics, and extracurricular -- very strong. 

 

My sons HS has over 5000 students and there are close to 1300 in his 2018 class. And we still can't find a good catcher ! 

Son's HS team had 5 d1s, all but 1 power 5. 2 were drafted and passed on college. We had at least 3 D2 guys and a few others who went NAIA and we still came up short twice in state playoffs in semis for championships. 

stayfocused posted:

Little bit off topic but I am curious when I see 4,000+ for school numbers.  Is this 7-12? 9-12, etc...???   The largest highschool in my state is about 3,000 and that school looks like a college campus.  I cannot imagine another 1,000.   My son's highschool is in the top 10 largest in state.....we just built a new 72 million dollar highschool that is enormous (or at least I thought it was). 

Allen High School 10-12th only https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_High_School_(Texas)

top ten biggest high schools in texas  http://yestotexas.com/20-bigge...gh-schools-in-texas/

we football alot

Just reading the comments . . . apparently, there are some high schools out there that have high school baseball players -- like, ones who actually get playing time -- who don't play travel baseball. Weird, huh?

The numbers you guys are talking about with regard to D1's are crazy,  3-5 on a team at the same time is hard to comprehend lol.   As far as I remember our HS has had 5 D1's total going back to the 1988 graduating class (I don't think any before that).   4 stayed here in Ohio and 1 who went SEC for a year then JUCO, then to a very good mid-major down South. 

I ran a 15U/16U team for two years....of the 12-14 regulars on that team.  5 are D1 pitchers, including one who originally went JUCO but will be back to D1 next year.   3 other pitchers that went D2 (1 has since quit baseball),  a D1 caliber catcher (went to Marines) and 2 other who got some D1 looks (3B and 1B) that went JUCO and have since given up baseball.  All were 2015's.  I can't imagine what it would be like to have had all those kids all on the same HS team but that's the type of talent some of you guys are talking about at your schools.  That would make for some fun baseball.