Please, get a backbone!

I'm guessing in the offseason Ortiz gets a 6-8M one year take it or leave it offer without the opportunity for arbitration.

With this trade as well as the previous acquisitions of Hanley Ramirez, Randy Choate, Brandon League, Shane Victorino, and Joe Blanton, the Dodgers have absorbed more than $300MM in future payroll obligations in the last month or so. As Jeff Euston of Cot's Baseball Contract notes (on Twitter), the club now has a $193.75MM in contracts for next season, $133.6MM for 2014, $90MM for 2015, $88.65MM for 2015, and another $90MM for 2016. The Red Sox, on the other hand, are now on the hook for just $45.6MM in 2013, $34.4MM in 2014, $12.75MM in 2015, and $2.45MM in 2016

the above is per MLBTradeRumors

I chose 3rdgenerationnation as my nickname before I found out one of my great grandfathers was a Sox fan. Suffice to say the Red Sox are very important to me.

I love the deal because it give the Sox a chance to exploit the financial fexibility they now have and it provides a clear signal to the remaining players that how they conduct themselves matters. I was very disturbed to hear how few players attended Johnny Pesky's funeral. It's one thing to lose on the field, it's another to thumb your nose at the fan base. I had no problem with Crawford other then he was not healthy and they signed him for too long a contract at the top of the market. Gonzo never understood playing in Boston and did not progress the way he was projected to playing at Fenway. Whatever Becket's issues were could be tolrated when he was throwing 95-97 but were too much of a distraction when he was underperforming his contract.

From the Dodgers perspective much of this might be about Magic wanting to make a splash in LA. Gonzo will be gold in that market.

quote:

Gonzo will be gold in that market.

He'll succeed if he can fly under the radar screen in LA, which is very doable. It wasn't possible in Boston. The media turned on him about a month ago. The fans turned on him after his, "It's God's will we didn't make the playoffs" comment last October. And his whining about having to play Sunday night games because the Sox were a high profile team. He only had 30+ rbi's after the break last year. At a game this year people were shoving the "God's will" comment back in his face when he whiffed or left men in scoring position. He was a .265 singles hitter until the Sox were out of contention.

Dodgers Stadium (Chavez Ravine) is in an area of Los Angeles highly populated with hispanics. We may see another form of "Fernando Mania" with Gonzalez in the lineup, especially if he blows up and hits to his potential. Yes indeed, Gonzo is GOLD in this market!

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
Dodgers Stadium (Chavez Ravine) is in an area of Los Angeles highly populated with hispanics. We may see another form of "Fernando Mania" with Gonzalez in the lineup, especially if he blows up and hits to his potential. Yes indeed, Gonzo is GOLD in this market!

I lived in Southern CA for twenty years. I was there for Fernandomania. Part of it was his personality. Gonzalez has a very dour personality.

Some food for thought:

Does all of this reflect poorly on Theo Epstein's reputation/legacy?

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
Dodgers Stadium (Chavez Ravine) is in an area of Los Angeles highly populated with hispanics. We may see another form of "Fernando Mania" with Gonzalez in the lineup, especially if he blows up and hits to his potential. Yes indeed, Gonzo is GOLD in this market!

I lived in Southern CA for twenty years. I was there for Fernandomania. Part of it was his personality. Gonzalez has a very dour personality.

You're correct RJM, no argument here in regards to Fernando. He had/has that fun and goofy personality that endured him to the LA fans. He was a great story. Adrian Gonzalez was born and raised in SoCal (Chula Vista) and is bilingual. I don't know about him being "dour"? And yes, I had to look that word up on my iPhone . As I stated earlier, the man was very well liked in San Diego...and LA is going to LOVE him!

I know you lived in Southern California in the past, but you've obviously been gone for a long time! As for me, I was born and raised here. I believe that I have a much better grasp on the pulse of the LA fans.......Dodgers are getting ready to take on the Marlins with Kershaw on the bump, it should be fun!

First AB as a Dodger...3 Run Bomb!

quote:

JH said.....Does all of this reflect poorly on Theo Epstein's reputation/legacy?

JH,

Trust me I've thought long and hard about this for a long time.....even before he left. Theo (and his team) made some great moves at the right time, and he definetly made some boners. The bottom line is two world series were won under his watch, and that will be his legacy. Theo made some bold moves (with Jed Hoyer and Cherington), and now it is Cherington's turn to set the Sox up for another run. I don't think it reflects poorly on Theo's legacy as sometimes you have to take some bad with the good. THe worst thing you can do in MLB is not do anything with regards to trades to make your team better.

It will be interesting to see what direction the Sox go with this clean slate. There are a lot of options. I'd love to see them go young like the Nationals (my favorite National League team) and bring in a couple grizzled veterans (ie...LaRoche, Werth) to show the youngsters how to do things.

As I write this Adrian Gonzalez hits a three run home run on his first Dodger at bat. Good for him.

fenwaysouth- My take is the Sox need to formally make Dustin Pedroia captain. They should also can Bobby V... as soon as possible. Like yesterday. I don't care how much of the bad blood that went on was with players that are now former Sox...he's a cancer that doesn't fit the personality mold of that town. Its going to take a few years of rebuilding to enable them to reach the top once again, but they have a sound farm system and no lack of funds to do so.

As a lifelong Yankee fan I miss the rivalry from a decade ago. Pedro vs. Clemens, Varitek vs. A-Rod. I love seeing the Red Sox lose, don't get me wrong. But baseball is a lot more fun to watch when they're duking it out against each other. The best rivalry in sports isn't so good when there's a soap opera in New England.

quote:

But baseball is a lot more fun to watch when they're duking it out against each other. The best rivalry in sports isn't so good when there's a soap opera in New England.

JH,

Agreed. However, for most of my life it has been a soap opera. With the exception of the Epstein/Francona era was it really really good. Francona was the best. They made some exceptional decisions and put a great product on the field. THose were good teams.

I'd love to see Pedey as captain, and Ortiz stay another year. Ortiz agreed to a one year $12M contract which was more than fair. I don't think the Red Sox will offer Ortiz more this time around in 2013. I'd also love to see Varitek come back as a coach. Sorry, but I haven't made my mind up on Bobby V yet. Given their current situation, I want to see Valentine make a positive impact or a statement in the dugout/clubhouse then I will make up my mind. This is now HIS team. Francona got his players to play their best for his tenure with the exception of one month (Sept 2011). I want to see Valentine get the best out of his players, if not then he will be gone. Everybody in Boston wants Valentine fired that is why I know it is the wrong thing to do. Big market fans are too quick to pull the trigger. I'll defer to Cherrington's judgement.

These recent trades were not about the players it was about the money. The Red Sox desire to purge two bad value contracts and one very good value contract (Gonzo) player for the Dodgers desire to make a World Series run starting now. Now, we need to find a trading partner to get rid of Lackey and Dice-K (referece THeo's boners in previous thread). Does anyone have the phone number for the Mets GM? ;-)

THe Yankees will be headed to a similiar impasse in the future unless they start making some moves to get young, make some trades, and jettison some contracts. I'm looking forward the day when it will be competitive again.

Fenway-Isn't this Dice K's last year on contract anyways?

Theo was well-received not only for the big league club, but the minor league system he built. Unfortunately, he capitalized on parts of the system that no longer exist

He would pay overslot to get better prospects in the draft -- now the system is slotted much harder, making you mortgage the rest of your draft if you wish to sign way overslot.

He had a far larger budget to sign international players -- with the exception of Japanese players, international spending is now capped at a very small number.

And of course, he had a phenomenally large budget in general. Now we have a luxury tax that is harsh enough to even scare the Yankees...Theo got out of town when he didn't leave the BoSox enough room between themselves and the tax to sign any more impact players.

He made some very nice scrap heap acquisitions that were instrumental in their winning the World Series, especially the first one. Since then, he's spent a lot of bad money. Perhaps it will be easier for him to build from scratch in Chicago since there will be no expectation for that club to spend big to win right away. Beware when they are close enough to competing that Cubs ownership opens up the pocketbooks, though...

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Some food for thought:

Does all of this reflect poorly on Theo Epstein's reputation/legacy?

I believe Epstein knew what he had done and left five minutes ahead of the posse. He was good at picking out the valuable pieces (Millar, Mueller, Foulke, etc.). He was horrible at big name free agent signings.

Epstein reminds me of the person who believes it when the car sales person says he can't negotiate price any further. Brian Cashman gamed Epstein three times. Cashman had no interest in Lackey and Crawford but played the game. Epstein was so fearful the Yankees would out bid him he overpaid. Yet the one guy Cashman really wanted, Texeira, he laid low and swept him right out from under the Sox after unamed sources said he was signing with the Sox.

There's more that needs to be done. Valentine has to go. He's gas thrown on the fire. An egomanic can't manage MLB egos.

Lucchino needs to go. He created this year's mess. He forced Valentine on Cherington. Cherington didn't want him. He forced the existing coaching staff on Valentine. He wouldn't let Valentine hire his own staff. Before being hired by the Sox he was President of the Orioles and Padres. Enough said! Talk about incompetency rising to the top.

Ownership needs to go or clean up their act. John Henry was a hero for the Sox winning a championship. When they won a second he thought the Sox were on par with the Yankees (they were) and got complacent. He got bored and turned over too much power in the organization to Lucchino. He moved on to purchasing and operating Liverpool s0ccer. If the Red Sox aren't a priority now, SELL THE TEAM. It's in chaos.

quote:

Everybody in Boston wants Valentine fired

I didn't want him hired. I predicted chaos and a 81-86 win season. Injuries made it worse. Valentine is grossly overrated. He's never led a team to as much as a division title. Yet for some reason in his mind it's all about him.

quote:

we need to find a trading partner to get rid of Lackey and Dice-K

Dice K's contract is up after 2013.

Lackey is a player I didn't understand signing. He had a history of arm problems. No one is going to take Lackey unless the Sox pay his salary. Let him get healthy. If he pitches well, then trade him and his attitude (just like Beckett). If he doesn't get healthy pay off part of his salary in a trade or bite the bullet and release him. You don't want him around younger pitchers with his attitude.

the tide is turning

I gotta hand it to the Red Sox...They're dumping their big salaries that are dead weight and getting rid of the cancers.

I wish the Yanks could've gotten rid of Arod this way.

Winning two world series in four years is the most important part of Epstein's legacy IMO. Especially in Boston. No matter what he did after that the Red Sox fans got what they wanted and needed with Epstein.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
I gotta hand it to the Red Sox...They're dumping their big salaries that are dead weight and getting rid of the cancers.

I wish the Yanks could've gotten rid of Arod this way.

Valentine is the biggest problem if you don't count finances, IMO

My White Sox are happy to have Kevin Youkilis

It once again amazes me that teams with too much money in their pockets are often willing to make ill advised moves--any moves, really--just to show they are doing something. I'm talking about the Dodgers here as they took most of Boston's problems off their hands mostly just to get Gonzalez and didn't make Boston contribute much financially towards the salaries they dumped. But if you look throughout the history of baseball, most new ownership groups, especially those flush with cash, want to make a big splash--Remember Texas and ARod--despite it being an extremely risky preposition.

The Yankees had their chance to get rid of ARoid when he opted out of his contract but stupidly gave him more money to come back when they had him over a barrel.

According to The Herald the Sox have been trying to trade Gonzalez since the end of spring training. Given there were spring training issues with players it doesn't take much to read between the lines here. All that's missing are the actual facts. The Dodgers were also trying to obtain Beckett before the trading deadline before he missed two starts with shoulder problems. Eventually the Dodgers decided they wanted Gonzalez enough they were willing took take Beckett despite his shoulder problems and Lackey to help the Sox get out from under that contract.

The Sox saw some daylight. They demanded Crawford (longer commitment and more money) instead of Lackey. Also given the number of top prospects the Sox gave up to acquire Gonzalez they wanted top propects in return. The only prospect the Dodgers refused to give up was Zack Lee. Loney will become a free agent at the end of the year. He's just filler at first base until the season ends.

This was a great trade for the Sox. They got out of going nowhere for several years quickly. For the Dodgers it's yet to be determined. If they win a World Series with the players they've recently acquired in the next three or four years it was a great deal. If they don't win and end up with a depleted minor league system and lack of payroll flexibility like the Sox did, the trade is a disaster.

The Sox now have a core of good young players to build on along with a restored minor league system with several solid MLB prospects. Cherington said the Sox got away from how they won championships. They got caught up in making media noise with big signings. From now on it's build from within, make the good trade and use free agency for final pieces to a championship. When the Sox had an overstocked minor league system Cherington was in change of player development.

It was also suggested by a Boston sportswiter the Sox trade Ellsbury for pitching. His contract is up after 2013. He's a west coast guy who has never at any time indicated he wants to stay in Boston. While he has great potential he's not a 30 homer guy like last year and maybe not a 20 homer guy. He's had significant injuries two of the last three years. Boras is his agent and will command a huge contract. A five year deal would probably be overpaying to watch Ellsbury in decline from ages 31-35 given his game is speed. While yesterday I mentioned using the available money to resign Ellsbury the writer's argument makes good sense. The next year or two will be building back to the top. The Sox are high on AA Jackie Bradley (South Carolina) as a centerfielder.

Think back to last years Sox lineup. Without knowing future trades and free agent signings this is what 2014 could look like

C - Saltalamacchia
1B - Sands (AAA from Dodgers)
2B - Pedroia
SS - Iglesis (AAA), Ciriaco, Bogaerts (AA) or DeJesus (AAA from Dodgers)
3B - Middlebrooks
OF - Brentz (AA)
OF - Bradley (AA)
OF - Kalish
DH - Lavarnway

SP - Lester
SP - Buchholtz
SP - Doubrant
SP - De La Rosa (AAA from Dodgers)
SP - Britton (AA) or Webster (AA from Dodgers)
SETUP - Tazawa
CLOSER - Bailey

RJM,

I would try to resign Ellsbury if there is value. If Boras sets the price too high then walk away. They can't get into long term deals. I love watching Ellsbury play when he is healthy. My only knock on him is his durability.

Jackie Bradley is the real deal. I've seen him play in high school, travel ball, and college baseball. He is moving up quickly through the Sox minor league system after winning two CWS with SC. Keep your eyes on that kid. He has a lot of desire.

quote:

RJM said....I didn't want him hired. I predicted chaos and a 81-86 win season. Injuries made it worse. Valentine is grossly overrated. He's never led a team to as much as a division title. Yet for some reason in his mind it's all about him.

Unfortunetly they don't ask US for advice on this stuff. We're kind of stuck with him until something really good or really bad happens. I just wish it would happen soon. 81-85 win season is turning out to be a very optimistic prediction.

You were exactly right about Theo. He is good at picking the perfect role players but absolutely horrid with free agent signings. I think you'll see Cherington take a different approach.

From Eric Wilber, Boston Globe: Break out Randy Newman's, I Love LA.

From Brian Cashman: “Excellent move by Boston, Unfortunately.”

From Nick Carfaldo, Boston Globe: The three biggest clubhouse problems are gone: Youkilis, Shoppach and Gonzalez.

From Chad Finn, Boston Globe: You mean it's Beckett and Crawford and Gonzalez? And the Dodgers are picking up most of the tab? Holy cow, I don't care if all the Sox are getting in return is Manny Mota, Ivan DeJesus Sr, and a used Magic Johnson Lakers practice jersey, get it done.

They have to take this freed up money and try to extend Ellsbury, pronto. He was one of the best players in baseball last year.

The Dodgers may get a payoff in this trade, but the BoSox win no matter what. They shed just an enormous amount of payroll, most teams don't get gifts like this. The Chicago Cubs would have died for a chance to trade their bad contracts like Soriano, Marmol, etc in a similar deal.

The Dodgers could get a title out of it, which I suppose can make any investment worth it, but they also may be stuck with an enormous load of salary commitments for the next two years and nearly 100M for the following three. Pardon my French, but that's just salary hell.

quote:

Originally posted by Three Bagger:

The Yankees had their chance to get rid of ARoid when he opted out of his contract but stupidly gave him more money to come back when they had him over a barrel.

Yea. The Steinbrenners were in a bidding war against themselves. Now to be fair, Arod did play a big part in their last world series title but has been in a huge decline over the last three years, can't stay on the field with the injuries and needs days off now so he's getting old.

quote:

They have to take this freed up money and try to extend Ellsbury, pronto. He was one of the best players in baseball last year.

Yes, he was one of the best players last year. But he's thirty next year and been injured two of the past three years. Other than last year he's never hit ten homers, driven in more than sixty and never scored one hundred. Other than last year his best OPS was .729. His game is speed and his next contract starts at age 31 and will probably extend to age 35.

I'm indifferent to his being resigned. Chances are the combination of the lesson the Red Sox just learned and what Boras will demand will be Ellsbury's ticket out of Boston. I don't believe the Sox will wait that long and lose him for nothing. He'll be gone by next year's trading deadline.

I agree with RJM that by signing Ellsbury, the Sox may be tempted to pay based on the one career year he had last year and will get numbers much less than that as the injuries take more and more of a toll on him. I would let him go at that price especially since Boros is likely to want him to get a contract based on that one season. If he was 24 or even 25 he might be worth the gamble but at 30, not so much.

Went over my head that he was that old since he is relatively new to the MLB. I would still work on extending him, but there's a much more clear limit on how much I'd pay him. I assume they hope to quickly re-tool and compete again, and you don't want to leave that void open. He'll have next year to show if last was a fluke.

quote:

Originally posted by JPontiac:
Went over my head that he was that old since he is relatively new to the MLB. I would still work on extending him, but there's a much more clear limit on how much I'd pay him. I assume they hope to quickly re-tool and compete again, and you don't want to leave that void open. He'll have next year to show if last was a fluke.

This is his 6th year in the majors. He has five full years. He was the starting centerfielder in the 2007 World Series. We got free tacos at Taco Bell for his performance in the 2007 World Series.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Think back to last years Sox lineup. Without knowing future trades and free agent signings this is what 2014 could look like

C - Saltalamacchia
1B - Sands (AAA from Dodgers)
2B - Pedroia
SS - Iglesis (AAA), Ciriaco, Bogaerts (AA) or DeJesus (AAA from Dodgers)
3B - Middlebrooks
OF - Brentz (AA)
OF - Bradley (AA)
OF - Kalish
DH - Lavarnway

SP - Lester
SP - Buchholtz
SP - Doubrant
SP - De La Rosa (AAA from Dodgers)
SP - Britton (AA) or Webster (AA from Dodgers)
SETUP - Tazawa
CLOSER - Bailey

RJM, I can't imagine the Sox having a starting lineup with that many rookies and unknowns. Not even the Astros had a lineup like that. I'm sure they will sign a few free agents over the winter. Might not be mega contracts but they have to do something. As good as those prospects might seem, we know that not all will pan out in the majors. That type of lineup could easily lead to 100 loss season and the Boston fans wouldn't stand for that.

The Phillies are in the same boat regarding holes in the lineup for next year. And they won't have the kind of money the Sox have for next year. That's the main reason they traded Pence. To free up some money to strengthen a terrible bullpen.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Think back to last years Sox lineup. Without knowing future trades and free agent signings this is what 2014 could look like

C - Saltalamacchia
1B - Sands (AAA from Dodgers)
2B - Pedroia
SS - Iglesis (AAA), Ciriaco, Bogaerts (AA) or DeJesus (AAA from Dodgers)
3B - Middlebrooks
OF - Brentz (AA)
OF - Bradley (AA)
OF - Kalish
DH - Lavarnway

SP - Lester
SP - Buchholtz
SP - Doubrant
SP - De La Rosa (AAA from Dodgers)
SP - Britton (AA) or Webster (AA from Dodgers)
SETUP - Tazawa
CLOSER - Bailey

RJM, I can't imagine the Sox having a starting lineup with that many rookies and unknowns. Not even the Astros had a lineup like that. I'm sure they will sign a few free agents over the winter. Might not be mega contracts but they have to do something. As good as those prospects might seem, we know that not all will pan out in the majors. That type of lineup could easily lead to 100 loss season and the Boston fans wouldn't stand for that.

The Phillies are in the same boat regarding holes in the lineup for next year. And they won't have the kind of money the Sox have for next year. That's the main reason they traded Pence. To free up some money to strengthen a terrible bullpen.

Like I said, precluding trades and free agent signings. First, Ellsbury will probably be traded for a starter at some position. A couple of prospects will get traded for a starter. There will be conservative free agent signings. An example would be Cody Ross. He signed for one year at 3M. A .270-20-80 guy who hits sixth is worth signing for three years at 12M.

Outfield and possibly first is where there will be upgrades. Bradley will probably be the centerfielder. Kalish has to come back healthy and prove himself. He's a top prospect. Short will be one of those four. The pitching looks fine. Doubrant was having a solid rookie year until his arm got tired. One more quality starter would be good.

I don't expect the Sox to make the postseason next year. But it will be fun watching a team of younger players headed in the right direction. For 2013 there may be several stop gap one year contracts. Some of the prospects may be two years away. It's why I selected 2014 for my list. Ortiz may get one more year with the team. Loney could be signed for a year or two. But he's not along term proposition. Posednick could be a starting outfielder next year.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by JPontiac:
Went over my head that he was that old since he is relatively new to the MLB. I would still work on extending him, but there's a much more clear limit on how much I'd pay him. I assume they hope to quickly re-tool and compete again, and you don't want to leave that void open. He'll have next year to show if last was a fluke.

This is his 6th year in the majors. He has five full years. He was the starting centerfielder in the 2007 World Series. We got free tacos at Taco Bell for his performance in the 2007 World Series.

Great pic!

For some reason I was thinking he was one of those 21-year-old phenoms, I'll chalk it up to ignorance and his baby face.

.

I think Jacoby is part native American Indian and that may account for his looking younger than he is. He's getting to that age where that's a big plus!



.

I'm resurrecting this thread for one reason and one reason only. I wanted to give the 2012 jaw dropping historic Red Sox / Dodger trade the space and time it deserves. My conclusion is the Sox come out on top only because they get to hit the reset button, and take a mulligan.

It has been about a month. AGon is hitting .255 since putting on the Dodger Blue. Beckett started 5 games, 1-2 record with 3.45 ERA. Crawford is out for the season, and the Dodgers will not be making the playoffs in 2012. The Red Sox are in the c-r-a-p-p-e-r but have purged more than a quarter Billion in salary.

One of the most memorable trades has really amounted to much ado about nothing.

Well, it ain't over yet. I realize the Dodgers will be playing golf in about 10 days, but we'll see how this works out over the next couple of years. I do not think it will work but we just don't know yet.

I wonder about chemistry. Seems to require a special type of star player and a special new clubhouse to get it right. Chemistry may not be working here, among other things.

quote:

Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
I'm resurrecting this thread for one reason and one reason only. I wanted to give the 2012 jaw dropping historic Red Sox / Dodger trade the space and time it deserves. My conclusion is the Sox come out on top only because they get to hit the reset button, and take a mulligan.

It has been about a month. AGon is hitting .255 since putting on the Dodger Blue. Beckett started 5 games, 1-2 record with 3.45 ERA. Crawford is out for the season, and the Dodgers will not be making the playoffs in 2012. The Red Sox are in the c-r-a-p-p-e-r but have purged more than a quarter Billion in salary.

One of the most memorable trades has really amounted to much ado about nothing.

It's The Punto Trade. He was the quality in the trade. Nick Punto plays with heart. He gets everything from his ability. He's a leader on the field, in the dugout and in the locker room.

The Dodgers gave the Boston Red Sox hope at a quick rebuild and an escape from salary hell to put themselves in their own salary hell...all while likely missing the playoffs. It looked like a bad trade when it happened, and it still does for the Dodgers. They will need to have an excellent season next year to redeem the perception of this move. The Red Sox management must just sit and laugh at how they got the Dodgers to take 250 million in salary from them.