Pointers for a new pitcher??

Personally I am not a big fan of pitchers who have a very short arm action. I think it ends up placing too much stress on the arm, especially as they get older and throw harder. I watch the first video and from the angle of the camera I should be able to see his throwing hand in the high power position. I never see it and so it tells me that he is not getting much action out of the arm in more of a full circle motion from the moment of the high power position into release.. In simpler terms, it appears he is short-arming the ball.

I would agree. Short arming the ball will work ok for him on the smaller fields but as soon as he moves up to the larger fields, it may come back to bite him a little. Maybe even a lot. Pitchers and outfielders should focus on big circles when they throw. It will take some stress off the arm and get more out of it with less effort. Sort of like a short fishing pole and a long fishing pole. The longer takes less effort to cast because of its length.
I also noticed a number of curve balls in the footage. At this point, I might be a little more concerned with that especially since he still is learning the proper mechanics.
I wish him luck.

BaseballByTheYard

The short arm action has been my biggest concern. It works well behind the plate and in the infield, but I agree that on the mound he needs to lengthen the arm motion.

I've tried to explain to him that his motion is like drawing a bow - he's leading back with his elbow instead of leading back with the ball. I'm thinking of putting an L-screen behind him on the mound and having him work on reaching back and touching it with the ball before starting forward. I'll see how that goes.

As for the curves... I have an agreement with him that he can throw whatever type of pitch he wants as long as he throws it palm down. If I see any torquing of the arm to the other side (palm up), he gets to go back to nothing but fastballs.

He's learned to throw the curve much like a circle change, just with a different grip.

Rob T,

It sounds like you are on the right track. If he can learn to make a smiley face action with leading the ball he will get there. Even though I do not like the drill of stopping at each important phase, it might help him in this case. Have him stop his action at the point of the high power position and adjust the arm and hand until the motion to that point is smooth, longer, and he is leading with the ball.

Your son catches and pitches? That's tough enough on the arm and if he continues to throw that many curve balls, he won't have an arm left, nor will he be playing much baseball.

In two years, he'll be in high school and be playing against better competition than I saw on your videos. If he opts to pitch rather than catch, he will have to lose the short arm delivery, focus on developing the fastball, then the change up.

I am sure you'd rather he have success in high school and beyond, if that's his goal. Look to the wisdom on this site, consider an instructor who knows pitching mechanics and lose the curve ball.

Any 13 year old can strike out kids who have rarely seen a curve ball.

I do know this- my son pitches and catches and he has different arm motions for each situation. When catching his arm motion is a lot shorter than when he pitches. When he pitches and is trying to pick off the runner from first base his arm action looks almost identical to his arm action when he catches and tries to throw a runner out attempting second base. I do know that when he throws like that his velocity drops quite a bit but his release time is very fast.

Getting the pitcher who has caught a lot to think differently about the timing and motion can do a lot to help them. Another issue with this is that a catcher will be more prone to open up early and have a smaller than normal stride that a pitcher should have. This is all due to catchers having to have a quick catch and release time and so there is less focus on staying closed and striding longer. So, work on longer arm action coupled with working at a slower pace and also work on staying closed as long as possible.

quote:

Your son catches and pitches? That's tough enough on the arm and if he continues to throw that many curve balls, he won't have an arm left, nor will he be playing much baseball.

While I appreciate the concern - the more recent research shows that fast balls are just as harmful, if not more harmful than a curve.

A good number of the strikeouts in the linked video are circle changes, not curves. (His change breaks down and away from right handed batters)

The far greater risk is overuse. To that end, my son hasn't thrown more than 75 pitches in a game this season - and not more than once a week.

He's been doing the thrower's ten and working with resistance bands for the past 6 months or so. He's also got the advantage of just now starting to pitch at 13, rather than the typical pitcher that already has 3-4 years of wear on his arm at this point.

He's far more of a contact pitcher than a strikeout pitcher. He uses movement and changes speeds to get batters to swing at pitches they can't hit hard. One of the games in the video was a 7 inning complete game where he threw 72 pitches, struck out five, walked one and had 16 outs by ground ball. Not a single ball hit in the air.

quote:

In two years, he'll be in high school and be playing against better competition than I saw on your videos.

Well, of course - I'd expect HS players to be better than 13u players. Some of the players in that video aren't all that good, but most of them are going to end up being the same kids he will face in HS. A little older, a little better - but still the same kids.

A curve his hardly unique in 13U travel ball. I would say it is actually rare to have a successful pitcher that doesn't throw an occasional curve or at least a good change up. Not to mention kids throwing sliders, cutters and splitters. Maybe at 46 feet pitchers can just throw the ball past batters, but at 54 or 60, the batters can catch up to just about any fastball if they know it's coming.

I wouldn't worry about people saying "no curveballs", I have been hearing it for 5 years. GBM son started throwing breaking balls when he was 11 and he just turned 16. Have had many a soul tell me that sons arm would be toast by the time he got to HS. Well, sons arm is still good going into his sophmore year.

Knowing your son and watching him carefully is the best advice. Teach son the importance of warning signs and that he has the power to shut his arm down no matter what. Overuse is the leading cause for serious injuries related to throwing and pitching.

I would also chime in that pretty much every competetive pre-HS team of 13 years olds has pitchers who know how and do throw breaking balls. Even here in Idaho you will not find a team of travel 13u kids who don't throw breaking balls. Just watch the LLWS. What have they done to help with preventing arm injury? Limited total pitches to decrease "overuse". It's interesting that no national little league sanctioning body has outlawed breaking balls but almost all have limited how much total pitches a kid can throw over a period of time.

GBM,

It isn’t the curveball all by itself that dangerous for a young arm, its how its executed. So if you understand how to properly throw it, then fine, let your kid throw them all day if you like. But do all dads, or coaches for that matter know what the right way is? Saying no curveballs as a general philosophy is a safe one for the masses.

As for outlawing breaking balls, is the reason no one’s done it because no one believes they’re dangerous, or because there’s no way to do it?

From the National Athletic Trainers Association position statement in the Spring of 2011:
"Parents and coaches should restrict the use of breaking
pitches in order to prevent pitching-related arm
injuries.20 If an individual pitcher can throw breaking
pitches on a limited basis and remain symptom free,
then it may be allowed; however, if the use of this pitch
precedes the development of any throwing-related
symptoms, it should be immediately terminated and
the athlete should seek medical attention. Evidence
Category: C"

The NATA summary of the only prospective study:
"A subsequent investigation20 of 3 suspected risk factors
(pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics) found
that the use of breaking pitches and high pitch counts
increased the risk of both elbow and shoulder pain among
youth pitchers. Specifically, the risk of elbow pain among
pitchers using the slider increased 86% and the risk of
shoulder pain in those throwing curveballs increased 52%.
In addition, higher single-game pitch counts and higher
cumulative (season-long) game pitch counts were associated
with an increased risk of shoulder pain. This association
between game pitch count and shoulder injury was
strongest among 9- to 10-year-old and 13- to 14-year-old
pitchers."

Any parent should be very happy their son, at age 16 is not having arm/elbow or shoulder problems.
It is not an age for celebration or gloating in my opinion, especially in light of the issue being one of repetitive stress/cumulative microtrauma which shows for pitchers after the accumulation of pitches over a number of years.
GBM has provided his opinion clearly and with his usual bit of flare.
In my opinion, for others with sons ages 10-16, this is not an issue of either curve balls or overuse.
It is both which factor into the current evidence, as NATA stated earlier this year.

How come no one ever has much to say about properly throwing a fastball and instead pick on how one throws a breaking ball? Everyone picks on the breaking ball as being the main culprit when it is not. What the studies don't show is that almost all "good" pitchers throw a breaking ball of some sort. What they also don't usually show is that the kids getting injured are playing longer seasons, more leagues, and pitching more frequently. ASMI research has even now proven that the highest stress on the arm is the fastball. Yet, you will never show up at any LL game anywhere in the country and hear- "wow, this kid is throwing a lot of fastballs". If they throw a breaking ball however you almost undoubtedly will hear something like- "he shouldn't be throwing breaking balls at that age, he's gonna have all kinds of arm trobles".

Trust me, I know, I have seen it over and over again. I have also seen kids- a lot of kids, at young ages who don't even throw a breaking ball and have chronic joint pain and ice after every game and no one thinks anything of it. Why? Because, little Johnny isn't throwing a breaking ball- he is fine (or so they think)! One of the hardest throwing pitchers on our HS team doen't even understand the concept of how to even throw a breaking ball and he suffers from chronic elbow pain.

It's not that I am advocating for Li'l Johnny to go out and throw a myriad of breaking balls, don't get me wrong, I am just saying that way too much emphasis is placed on the dangers of throwing breaking balls when in fact, the real problem lies in bad mechanics in general and also in overuse.

Rob, I wish your kid the best. Catching and pitching will excessively wear his arm down if he does both. You chart every pitch and I am sure you know how many curve balls he throws. Based on the video and your calling of all the curves, it seemed excessive.

I hope he improves his mechanics,because whether he is throwing too many curves or just all fastballs, the short arming combined with excessive use is likely to cause him arm problems.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
It's not that I am advocating for Li'l Johnny to go out and throw a myriad of breaking balls, don't get me wrong, I am just saying that way too much emphasis is placed on the dangers of throwing breaking balls when in fact, the real problem lies in bad mechanics in general and also in overuse.

Where did anyone ever argue that bad mechanics and overuse were not the main cause for injury? I sometimes wonder if you actually read what others do post. The point being made is that bad mechanics and overuse coupled with lots of breaking balls isn't healthy for youth pitchers. Keep in mind as Stats posted and what I beleive to be true, most don't through a curve properly and that isn't just limited to youth pitchers. Now in your case, you being a very fine self taught pitching instuctor that may not pertain to your son, but keep in mind that just because, at this point in time your son has no issues that someone elses son won't.

I was kind of in awe watching the video, my opinion (and that may not necessarily be everyone's) is that a young pitcher should be throwing a higher ratio FB to his other stuff. And that he would go an entire game (even if ONLY 72 pitches). Not to mention that he catches when not pitching and is having a mechanical issue. FWIW, chances are very great that he won't be doing either when he reaches the HS level, if you continue that path.

Well, he may be fine, but then again he may not. So with a 50-50 chance why would you want to increase it by doing certain things that can cause injury?

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
How come no one ever has much to say about properly throwing a fastball and instead pick on how one throws a breaking ball? Everyone picks on the breaking ball as being the main culprit when it is not. What the studies don't show is that almost all "good" pitchers throw a breaking ball of some sort. What they also don't usually show is that the kids getting injured are playing longer seasons, more leagues, and pitching more frequently. ASMI research has even now proven that the highest stress on the arm is the fastball. Yet, you will never show up at any LL game anywhere in the country and hear- "wow, this kid is throwing a lot of fastballs". If they throw a breaking ball however you almost undoubtedly will hear something like- "he shouldn't be throwing breaking balls at that age, he's gonna have all kinds of arm trobles".

The only thing I can tell you is, throwing a FB is at least using the “natural” motion someone would use picking up a rock and trying to kill meat for the table. Its not likely some caveman would try to bonk a squirrel with a breaking rock. Here’s what I’ve been told most often. There are a lot of ways to throw a breaking ball that use supination or that put a lot of stress on the elbow, and those are the things that frighten many who understand the pitching motion.

Yes, a lot of mistakes can be made throwing FBs too, an some of them can cause problems, but evidently the conventional wisdom says a badly thrown FB does not have the potential danger a badly thrown breaking ball does.

I think you’re wrong about “them” usually not showing that the kids getting injured are playing longer seasons, more leagues, and pitching more frequently. As far as I know, the “national” conversation by Drs and organizations like ASMI, very much incorporates overuse as a bad thing, not good. It may not be true in every case, but believe me, its so far ahead of what was being said even 5 years ago, its amazing. So progress is being mad, but it takes a lot to change the course of a ship as old and massive as the “Ship of Baseball”.

quote:

Trust me, I know, I have seen it over and over again. I have also seen kids- a lot of kids, at young ages who don't even throw a breaking ball and have chronic joint pain and ice after every game and no one thinks anything of it. Why? Because, little Johnny isn't throwing a breaking ball- he is fine (or so they think)! One of the hardest throwing pitchers on our HS team doen't even understand the concept of how to even throw a breaking ball and he suffers from chronic elbow pain.

It's not that I am advocating for Li'l Johnny to go out and throw a myriad of breaking balls, don't get me wrong, I am just saying that way too much emphasis is placed on the dangers of throwing breaking balls when in fact, the real problem lies in bad mechanics in general and also in overuse.

I think you’re very likely right about there being less emphasis on bad mechanics than breaking balls as an injury issue. But think of it the same way most people think about velocity and pitcher forecasting. While there are some things that CAN help predict a pitcher’s success, for the most part those things are pretty subjective, except for velocity. While everyone with any baseball knowledge at all understand that pitching depends on many more things than velocity, it’s the only objective thing there is.

What you’re saying about mechanics is pretty much the same thing. Its easy to point to breaking balls , because generally they’re easy to pick out. But if you got 100 coaches of varying expertise and experience, and asked them to look at the same 5 pitchers and pick out any bad mechanics, how many things do you think would be listed? IOW, what is “bad” mechanically, is very subjective, and depends a lot on how the observer was trained. Its very hard to come up with a national definition when there’s so little agreement.

One other thing about breaking balls. I think a compelling reason for not throwing them pre-puberty, is that they’re not necessary for pitching success. A kid who has a decent FB and a good CU, combined with good command, can have enormous success on the small field, and as we’ve seen in the last decade with the proliferation of the CU in the ML, there can be enormous success on the big field as well. So, there’s an option which most would agree is the least “dangerous” for the kids, but just as successful. To me it’s a no-brainer, except for one thing. There aren’t a lot of coaches who a) understand that, b) can teach command, or c) aren’t afraid to call it in a game, and make no mistake, with all the coaches calling pitching now-a-days, they’re the ones calling so many curves.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
One other thing about breaking balls. I think a compelling reason for not throwing them pre-puberty, is that they’re not necessary for pitching success. A kid who has a decent FB and a good CU, combined with good command, can have enormous success on the small field, and as we’ve seen in the last decade with the proliferation of the CU in the ML, there can be enormous success on the big field as well. So, there’s an option which most would agree is the least “dangerous” for the kids, but just as successful. To me it’s a no-brainer, except for one thing. There aren’t a lot of coaches who a) understand that, b) can teach command, or c) aren’t afraid to call it in a game, and make no mistake, with all the coaches calling pitching now-a-days, they’re the ones calling so many curves.

BINGO!
Great point, CB not necessary for success in youth baseball.

I see no problem really with youth throwing breaking balls- never had and probably never will. The majority of case by case incidents I have personally seen with youth pitchers who have pain- chronic pain is due, in my opinion, from a mixture of bad mechanics, poor conditioning, and overuse. Most of them throw such a low frequency of breaking balls that I just don't see the connection of breaking balls leading to injuries. If you have bad mechanics which can range from everything such as short-arming all the way to a timing issue, it won't matter what you throw- you will more than likely have pain issues from time to time or a very limited depth of pitch counts before fatigue sets in which causes mechanics to get worse leading to injury..

I know of one kid in particular who has been taking professional pitching lessons for years- spent thousands and thousands of dollars, doesn't throw hardly any breaking balls at all (maybe 10 or less per game), and he has one of the worst chronic elbow pain issues that I have ever witnessed. I believe that genetically he has a strong arm and good joints- no problem there. But with him it has always been a timing issue- his arm just lags so far behind (the opposite of short-arming or rushing the arm) that his elbow is placed under a stress load almost twice as long as a normal pitcher. It's no wonder to me why he has elbow pain- every pitch for him is like throwing 3 for a normal pitcher. Who cares about what he throws- fix the timing issue- the mechanical breakdown.

Too easy in todays world to just link youth and breaking balls with injury- that is not the real story.

GBM,

You are never going to change your opinion on the curve ball and given your location being in the hotbed of baseball, you have seen it all.

That being said, leading medical experts, i.e. Dr. Jobe disagree with your assessment.

If a kid's goal is to be successful at a younger age, the curve ball will certainly help. If a kid's goal is to have longevity in the game, chances are he won't have the arm to do it.

There are only so many pitches in an arm and overuse combined with throwing curve balls at an early age will accelerate that process.

Proud Dad,
For some people it is what it is. This topic actually is a very good example of that. The OP has posted a 13 year olds win-loss record and his ERA (which means nothing). Now I know and most here that with the frequent use of his CB, he will be successful. Will that frequent use of that pitch, plus his mechanical issue get him to the next level without injury. I do beleive that is the whole idea, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!

This doesn't pertain to people who actually know what they are talking about, or how to teach correctly, but the majority of youth players are taught by their dads to pitch, and I am willing to bet that most don't know how to teach correctly. I find it interesting that former pitchers at the highest level won't teach very young pitchers the true CB. I am pretty sure it is because they know and understand that at this point, the FB is much more important than any other pitch. So why take the chance? Why not just wait until the growth plates ARE close to being closed?

There is no doubt that a young pitcher can be successful without the use of a breaking ball until he reaches a certain age. Most of the really good youth coaches (and those on this site) will tell you that they do not let their pitchers use breaking balls until they reach a certain age. It's not just because it may cause injury, but also because the development of the FB is more important than being the best darn youth pitcher in your state.

I beleive that a person can do what they wish with their own player, but stay away from mine. Coaches telling parents that "it's ok", well I would find my son a new coach asap. Just as there are many coaches who would allow Rob T's son to continue throwing cb with those mechanics, I know a lot of coaches that would not allow a 13yo to do what he is doing.

Which at this point is more important, results now or results later?

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Proud Dad 24:
GBM,

You are never going to change your opinion on the curve ball and given your location being in the hotbed of baseball, you have seen it all.

That being said, leading medical experts, i.e. Dr. Jobe disagree with your assessment.

If a kid's goal is to be successful at a younger age, the curve ball will certainly help. If a kid's goal is to have longevity in the game, chances are he won't have the arm to do it.

There are only so many pitches in an arm and overuse combined with throwing curve balls at an early age will accelerate that process.

I diasgree. There are not only "so many pitches in an arm". That is just another load of **** handed down by unknowing Dads at little league games. If that were true then it would also mean there was only so many swings in a batters arm or so many runs in a runners legs.

Overuse, regardless of what pitches they are throwing at that point, will all lead to injury. Some erroneously think that adding a breaking ball on top of all else is like the straw that broke the camels back with injury. There is no data to back that up though. The final straw is that "extra" game to get that win, or the "extra" inning to secure the win all the while the pitcher was already fatigued and sore.

If a kid wants longevity in the game, it won't matter what pitches he throws but rather what mechanics he has, conditioning and frequncy of outings (limiting overuse). Throwing a breaking ball at the youth age will not be the cause for him exiting the game prematurely due to injury. His cause for exiting the game early due to injury will generally be because of "overuse". One can't assume this scenerio of youth pitchers-

Kid A: Throws two pitches- fastball and Change-up. Will make it to post HS play because he didn't have breaking ball which would have destroyed his arm

Kid B: Throws three pitches- fastball, breaking ball and Change-up. Will not make it through HS due to him throwing the breaking ball

TPM-I totally agree

GBM-As an unknowing Dad, who blew his arm out and had good mechanics, this won't be the last load of **** I share

Shelby,

I read the article and all I can say is that he offers some good sound advice coupled with a lot of his own opinion that even he can't support with real data.

I have read hundreds of articles about the issue over the years and the only ones that really have any weight whatsoever with me are the ones where they compile real data without a pre-biased opinion. Those reports that I have read show no correlation whatsoever with breaking balls leading to injury. Even in the article you listed thet guy admits the leading cause of injury is overuse. Here are is exact words-

quote:

The most significant data regarding injuries with youths points towards high pitch count as the leading cause of injury.

That's overuse. I have seen enough youth baseball in my years to know and put together the dots- where they really line up. The biggest correlation I see with youth pitching and injuries are due to poor mechanics, poor conditioning, and overuse. I have never seen a correlation of breaking balls being the cause leading to injury. I would however agree that all pitches need to be properly taught and at the appropriate age and time. But this doesn't mean that we should wait until say HS to teach the breaking ball. Take the fastball for example- if a pitcher at any level or age can't learn to throw that pitch with the correct mechanics, it doesn't matter what happens after that if he doesn't correct his basic mechanicvs- he will always be prone to injur his arm, regardless of age, morso than another pitcher with good mechanics.

Like i brought up previously about the young pitcher I know who has had years of professional training and yet he has a myriad of elbow problems which are not related in one way to him throwing a breaking ball. It wouldn't have mattered what age he started pitching at, his basic mechanical problems would arise no matter what.

I personally would like to see more articles focusing on the real issue with youth pitching injuries- that of overuse and bad mechanics. We have seen a spike recently with the overuse issue but that isn't the whole picture. We need more articles focusing on better conditioning, better use of mechanics and more articles explaining the dangers of pitching while fatigued or partially injured. I tell everyone of my pitchers who i work with what to watch out for regardless of what they throw or how many varriation of each pitch they throw- I could really care less in regards to injury prevention.

My main focus in teaching them is first- what pain to watch for and what pain is bad pain. Any interior joint pain should be addressed immediately and I teach them that interior joint pain is not good and can be very detremental to their overall longevity with the game. Pain near or around their elbow or shoulder should also be a warning sign of what to watch for as being bad due to a myriad of factors. Pain in the general muscle groups such as the triceps or bicep or forearm is not as bad but it is the first sign of fatigue or small injury which is what tells them to start shutting it down and give the ol arm a rest.

The next important thing I teach is to properly warm up and warm down before and after pitching. It is extremely bad to throw all out on a body that is not warmed up to throw. I have seen a lot of injury with players who rush getting ready and do not properly stretch out and warm up.

Next is the importance of conditioning the arm and body to be able to throw a lot. I am a big fan of throwing (not pitching) a lot and working the arm into proper shape this way. Nolan Ryan who had a long carreer has this same philosophy.

Above all though, I teach them that them and only them have the control over how much they throw, how often they throw and when to stop throwing. I teach them that they themselves should be their own judges, keeping all aspects of the things taught to them in their ever present mind, to have the final say on their pitching. If their arm is starting to hurt or body is fatiguing- they themselves need to take themslves out of the game or stop throwing. If it goes against what a coach wants or against his designs, remind yourself that only you have the power to control your overall goals and that often times coaches and even parents do not nor should not control immediate satisfaction at the cost of destroying future overall goals.

quote:

Originally posted by Proud Dad 24:
TPM-I totally agree

GBM-As an unknowing Dad, who blew his arm out and had good mechanics, this won't be the last load of **** I share

You can have the best mechanics, throw no other pitches than justt he fastabll and still throw your arm out- it's called overuse. Not sure of your own individual case but usually, pitchers who throw their arm out almost always complain of pain in arm leading up to the outing where they hurt their arm. Some pitchers can only throw 30-40 pitches in a game without "overuse" while others can go 75-100 without "overuse". Each pitcher is different. There are a myriad of factors tha go into it but generally, arms just don't instantly blow out wothout some creeping or nagging pain manifesting itself prior to the date of injury.

GBM,
I don't think that anyone is arguing the points that you have made, the discussion of poor mechanics and overuse has been a topic here long before you ever arrived. We all can agree that can lead to injury.

Now start throwing lots of curveballs and sliders at a young age with the above. Now add on top of that an underlying issue to the arm or elbow, then there becomes a recipe for disaster, perhaps later. Keep in mind that everything one does as a youth pitcher can or cannot come back to haunt the older pitcher.

Please see the info provided here by infielddad. As far as any studies (IMO),sometimes maybe just some good old fashioned common sense should be considered.

That's all that has been stated, nothing more, but you seem to make more of it than it really is. If you feel that allowing 10-14 year olds to use the curve ball for success is necessary, that's your opinion, but be aware that most really good coaches don't allow that and neither do a lot of parents.

I would like to see young pitchers develop proper mechanics and hit locations with a fastball and change up prior to throwing a curve ball. Yes, he will win more games and have a lower ERA if he uses the curve ball....and we know how much that matters at 13 .

My 2015 LHP has been working with a very good instructor (same one as Casey Crosby of Detroit used years ago) who also believes in teaching kids to become "pitchers" and learn to get command before the use of a curve ball. He has faired very well in absence of a curve ball, and learned how to use his fastball, change-up and location to keep hitters off balance. Has he missed out by not throwing the cuve....not at all. He will begin to gradually learn the curve ball this winter, yet still use it sparingly this Spring and summer.

As others have shared, why risk a future arm when you don't need to. And for those that support it's all in the mechanics, there's very few 12-13 year old pitchers who have excellent mechanics...and even fewer 12-13 year old coaches who can properly give high level pitching instruction. IMO.

Good post GoBlue.

Who you let mentor, teach your son, and their philosophy makes a huge difference in the young pitchers future success as well as future health. It's NOT always about what is going on right at that particular age, but taking the future of the pitcher into consideration is of the upmost importance, IMO.

Instead of worrying more about stuff that really doesn't matter at certain ages (wins, era), he is taking a LHP and forcing him to develop and use his FB and an off speed. Good for him!

You also make a great point about the mechanics of youth pitchers, it takes years and years to perfect mechanics and then there is always the tweeking as they grow and mature. Why risk anything that may even have the slightest chance of harm?

Best of luck!

I have been posting here since 2005 and curveballs at a young age is one of the most hotly discussed topics on the site. A few years back I started a thread on the exact same topic...I was teaching lessons to an 11 year old LHP who's father insisted on continuing to develop the young man's "dynamite" curveball. I was very skeptical about supporting this for a few reasons.

I had the pleasure of meeting Dr. Andrews in July and spoke to him about ASMI's studies pertaining to curveballs. He explained pretty much exactly what the studies had said...that a curveball thrown properly will have no greater effect on the arm than a fastball would. I contested that I am still hesitant to teach younger children throw curveballs because of repeatability. A young pitcher does not know how to make physical adjustments in order to continually repeat proper mechanics when throwing a curveball. Often times younger pitchers compensate for their lack of physical strength and thus rely on certain aspects of their mechanics that would be detrimental to their bodies. The concept of "proper mechanics" with younger pitchers are often times a moot point because consistency is very rarely, if ever, achieved with still-growing bodies.

Dr. Andrews replied that he agrees completely, and I told him that it would be great if a study could be done to see how many pitchers that come to him with severe arm injuries that require surgery are under the age of 18 and analyze how many of them threw curveballs at a young age. He said that unfortunately the data would be subjective and therefore impossible to appropriately view (due to the fact that a survey would have to be conducted and authenticity and truthfulness could not be verified), but that it certainly would be an interesting study to independently run instead of having the subjective data included in another study like it has in the past.

In terms of the OP, there are many more issues than the curveball at this point. For one, the "short arm" action should be corrected, regardless of what position you play. Once the elbow is parallel with or above the shoulder, the elbow should never be higher than the ball. Also, following through would behoove the OP's son greatly.

Well said TPM and JH. As someone fairly new to the site and just beginning the journey with my oldest son, I appreciate the perspectives, knowledge and discussions that occur. Although I am selective on what I share/post I read and follow on a daily basis. I see potential in my LHP 2015 but understand he hasn't even thrown a high school pitch yet He has much development ahead of him and lots of things can happen over the next 3 1/2 years.

quote:

Originally posted by GoBlue55:
I would like to see young pitchers develop proper mechanics and hit locations with a fastball and change up prior to throwing a curve ball. Yes, he will win more games and have a lower ERA if he uses the curve ball....and we know how much that matters at 13 .

My 2015 LHP has been working with a very good instructor (same one as Casey Crosby of Detroit used years ago) who also believes in teaching kids to become "pitchers" and learn to get command before the use of a curve ball. He has faired very well in absence of a curve ball, and learned how to use his fastball, change-up and location to keep hitters off balance. Has he missed out by not throwing the cuve....not at all. He will begin to gradually learn the curve ball this winter, yet still use it sparingly this Spring and summer.

As others have shared, why risk a future arm when you don't need to. And for those that support it's all in the mechanics, there's very few 12-13 year old pitchers who have excellent mechanics...and even fewer 12-13 year old coaches who can properly give high level pitching instruction. IMO.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. However, you did mention one thing that stood out to me and I want to make a point of it. You stated in your last paragraph you said "why risk a future arm when you don't need to". This has been my sentiment all along thrugh the years only I am applying to kids who improperly throw a baseball or who throw so much it's overuse. If I go and watch a LL game and watch 10-12 years olds and see a kid icing his arm I will often inquire about the kid as to why. Most often times it's because he has elbow pain or "little league elbow" as it is called. But, as I recall, the kid never threw a breaking ball as far as I can tell. I have seen this scenerio quite a few times over the years- watching kids pitch who don't really have a breaking ball and yet have chronic elbow pain from merely throwing "fastballs" in games. And then, I see these same kids go out week after week, and throw and then ice over and over again. Some parents I have talked to. Some coaches I have even talked to. Very few however listen. Somehow, they think it is just "natural" pain and that is what happens when you pitch.

What we need to learn to understand is that the majority of LL elbow cases are due, in my opinion, to a lack of proper mechanics coupled with overuse. Look, it doesn't matter what pitch type a kid throws, if he has bad mechanics, the weaker link is going to expose itself sooner or later. In a pitchers arm, that weak link is the UCL. The highest stress on a kids arm (ar any person for that matter regardless of age) is during the phase of going from the high power position and then into the rather violoent acceleration of the arm into release. That period where the forearm becomes rather parallel to the ground (called "maximum external rotation") is the period where the greatest stress called "valgus stress" occurs. It is this acceleration phase, not what grip their hand is placing on a ball, that injurs a pitchers elbow. It happens slowly over time and if pitcher does not get enough rehab (rest)time between pitching, the arm can't repair itself quick enough which over time will lead to a larger tear and perhaps even requiring ligament replacement (TJS).

What I want to focus on here is what seems clearly obvious- the greatest stress placed upon the arm during the throwing phase is when the arm is at the moment of maximum external rotation. If a pitcher has bad mechanics which either places his arm in a precarious position, or his timing is off, or both (often times) he will place a higher than needed stress on the elbow. It is during this acceleration phase that a pitchers elbow gets damaged, not what happens at release or right after release. Release and after motions lead more to shoulder injuries and not elbow due to an improper follow through or weak or unbalanced shoulder deceleration muscles.

So, if we can note that the greaest stress is not what happens at release but what happens during the acceleration phase, then it is easy to see where the real problem lies. It is not "throwing curveballs", but rather what exactly is happening during the acceleration phase regardless of what grip they have at the time. When Strasburg ruptured his UCL he had a Change-up grip- the pitch having the least valgus stress. It wasn't just that one pitch, it was what led up to it.

I don't think anyone of us have a perfect knowledge of what "good" or even "excellent" mechanics are supposed to look like let alone teach them. I don't believe anyone has that figured out yet. However, we can go backwards and reverse analyze what healthy pitchers do/ don't do and also what unhealthy pitchers do/not do. Wedo know that the ratio of injuries in professional players is about the same in youth amd HS players. We also know through recent studies that there is solid correlation between the amount of breaking balls healthy pitchers throw and that of unhealthy pitchers. The evidence is beginning to drastically show that it isn't "what" a pitcher throws that is causing injury but rather "how much" he throws without adequate rest for the arm to repair itself.

I also see the same thing with pitchers that are overusing their arm with very little rest in between. 9-10 year old kids throwing over 100 pitches over a weekend tournament,not counting warm-ups and pitches in between innings. And coaches just making sure they stay within the "allowed" innings for the tournament but disregarding the number of pitches.

I don't pretend to have the answers but applaud all those parents and coaches who take care of these young arms.

Appreciate the thoughtful responses.

I found this from ASMI. It appears that the gurus are getting this thing sorted out correctly-

http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/position_statement.htm

Here is what it states in full-

quote:

Position Statement for Youth Baseball Pitchers

Updated March 2011

With the rise in elbow and shoulder injuries in youth baseball pitchers, the adult community needs to take steps to prevent these injuries. Research points to overuse as the principle risk factor. Poor pitching mechanics also contribute to injury risk. Another suggested risk factor is poor physical fitness.
Throwing curveballs has been suggested as a risk factor, but the existing research does not support this concern. However, a youth pitcher may not have enough physical development, neuromuscular control, and proper coaching instruction to throw a curveball with good mechanics. Throwing curveballs too early may be counter-productive, leading to arm fatigue as well as limiting the youth's ability to master fastball mechanics.

Thus, the recommendations for preventing injuries in youth baseball pitchers are:

Watch and respond to signs of fatigue. If a youth pitcher complains of fatigue or looks fatigued, let him rest from pitching and other throwing.
No overhead throwing of any kind for at least 2-3 months per year (4 months is preferred). No competitive baseball pitching for at least 4 months per year.
Do not pitch more than 100 innings in games in any calendar year.
Follow limits for pitch counts and days rest. (Example limits are shown in the table below.)
Avoid pitching on multiple teams with overlapping seasons.
Learn good throwing mechanics as soon as possible. The first steps should be to learn, in order: 1) basic throwing, 2) fastball pitching, 3) change-up pitching.
Avoid using radar guns.
A pitcher should not also be a catcher for his team. The pitcher-catcher combination results in many throws and may increase the risk of injury.
If a pitcher complains of pain in his elbow or shoulder, get an evaluation from a sports medicine physician.
Inspire youth pitchers to have fun playing baseball and other sports. Participation and enjoyment of various physical activities will increase the youth's athleticism and interest in sports.

Of most importance is that ASMI states 3 factors-
1. Overuse
2. Poor mechanics
3. Poor conditioning.

It also states this-


Throwing curveballs has been suggested as a risk factor, but the existing research does not support this concern.

I will leave that all for you guys to interpret but it seems that the guys who know- the medical doctors and researchers are shifting the focus of injury away from the curvball usage and instead into overuse.

GBM- Isn't that exactly what everyone in this thread has been stating?

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
GBM- Isn't that exactly what everyone in this thread has been stating?

I have come to the strong conclusion that GBM doesn't read posts by others, which is an indication of how one feels about others and their opinions.
Nothing he just stated is not anything anyone doesn't agree with.
I did like the part that mentions the steps in order basic throwing, FB, CU. That's been my point and I have made myself clear.
As we all have noticed, GBM has a way of turning things around to his advantage, after all is said and done, but the bottom line is that we have heard in the past that his son threw breaking balls at a very early age (10) and was hugely successful.
Sorry, but that is not my philosophy and my opinion is, based upon my knowledge and experience that is a risk that we wouldn't take even if we had to start all over AND there is no way in he ll our son would plsay with a coach that believes that it is necessary to do so.

Back to the original post, the way I see it, the player is at risk, with mechanics that need improvement and using too many breaking balls, I would most likley seek out the help of a professional and there are plenty around that know what they are doing.
BTW for what it worth, icing and why players do it doesn't indicate a problem, mine has been doing it since he began pitching at 8 and does to this day. It doesn't indicate injury, but a routine that helps aid in his recovery.
I am expecting to get a whole disertation on the pros and cons after that statement.

Have a great day everyone!

TPM: Maybe it is because he & the posters son in Flintoide's thread share some things in common. JS!
And the Ice / Don't Ice thing! Ha! Yes, you are right! H.C. will call / text: "Don't Forget to Ice", while his Pitching Coach, doesn't agree with ice! Wonderful!

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
GBM- Isn't that exactly what everyone in this thread has been stating?

Go back and read the entire thread. Several posters were stating the idea of throwing curveballs at an early age (pre- high school) to be the cause for kids damaging their arms. I was merely bringing up that research is showing that throwing curveballs at an early age is not what is causing kids arms to be blown out.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
GBM- Isn't that exactly what everyone in this thread has been stating?

I have come to the strong conclusion that GBM doesn't read posts by others, which is an indication of how one feels about others and their opinions.
Nothing he just stated is not anything anyone doesn't agree with.
I did like the part that mentions the steps in order basic throwing, FB, CU. That's been my point and I have made myself clear.
As we all have noticed, GBM has a way of turning things around to his advantage, after all is said and done, but the bottom line is that we have heard in the past that his son threw breaking balls at a very early age (10) and was hugely successful.
Sorry, but that is not my philosophy and my opinion is, based upon my knowledge and experience that is a risk that we wouldn't take even if we had to start all over AND there is no way in he ll our son would plsay with a coach that believes that it is necessary to do so.

Back to the original post, the way I see it, the player is at risk, with mechanics that need improvement and using too many breaking balls, I would most likley seek out the help of a professional and there are plenty around that know what they are doing.
BTW for what it worth, icing and why players do it doesn't indicate a problem, mine has been doing it since he began pitching at 8 and does to this day. It doesn't indicate injury, but a routine that helps aid in his recovery.
I am expecting to get a whole disertation on the pros and cons after that statement.

Have a great day everyone!

And I have come to the strong conclusion that TPM doesn't have a very good memory concerning the facts.

For starters, son started throwing his breaking ball at 11 1/2 years old. TPM is off by almost 2 years!

You seem to always jump on the boat to blast me whenever an opportunity arises. If you agree with what I say about breaking balls not being bad if thrown right, why the debate? It is because deep down you honestly believe throwing breaking balls before HS will destroy an arm. My whole case all along has been over poor conditioning, poor mechanics and overuse. ASMI, in their latest written statement did not mention breaking balls as being something to avoid. They stated the same exact three things I have been making all along.

So, whereas my son did start throwing breaking balls at 11 1/2 years old, he was very advanced at that time. He had already mastered to some degree both the fastball and changeup. My son has never had elbow or shoulder problems and I believe it is because he has not been overused, he has basically smooth mechanics and he is properly conditioned because he does throw a lot (not pitch a lot- difference).

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
BTW for what it worth, icing and why players do it doesn't indicate a problem, mine has been doing it since he began pitching at 8 and does to this day. It doesn't indicate injury, but a routine that helps aid in his recovery.
I am expecting to get a whole disertation on the pros and cons after that statement.

Have a great day everyone!

The jury may still be out on the whole ice thing but we have been told by doctors that it is better not to ice if there is no injury. Icing is for speeding up the blood flow to help speed up the recovery of damaged tissue. My son doesn't ice because he doesn't damage his arm. It's an opinion thing for sure but do realize that icing too much is not good for the arm, especially if it is already pretty healthy..

GBM:
Thank-you for your input. We get your point of view. But, maybe we can just leave it at the simple fact is, as anyone whom takes the time to research it will find, there are differing points of research results findings, and first hand knowledge from parents of M.S., H.S., College level, MiLB, & MLB players on sites like these. So, for the sake of not wanting to frustrate people with beating a dead horse... Can we just say, you, they, have made your / their point. Now it is up to the parents to decide for themselves with the opinions stated & their own research.

GBM- What are you talking about? Every single time a player throws a baseball there is damage to tissue and ligaments throughout the arm, in all areas. Throwing a ball overhand is not a natural motion and thus puts strain on these body parts each time the motion is completed. Recuperation of these body parts is the reason why people take time off from throwing and pitch count/innings limits exist in the first place.

I am not talking about icing vs. not icing because there are many valid opinions from both camps. But your reasoning is blatantly wrong kinetically and I for one don't appreciate you continuing to flood these public message boards with misinformed knowledge with blinders on.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
GBM- What are you talking about? Every single time a player throws a baseball there is damage to tissue and ligaments throughout the arm, in all areas. Throwing a ball overhand is not a natural motion and thus puts strain on these body parts each time the motion is completed. Recuperation of these body parts is the reason why people take time off from throwing and pitch count/innings limits exist in the first place.

I am not talking about icing vs. not icing because there are many valid opinions from both camps. But your reasoning is blatantly wrong kinetically and I for one don't appreciate you continuing to flood these public message boards with misinformed knowledge with blinders on.

What I am speaking of is what we term "injury". A normal outing should not be termed "injury". A sprained muscle is an injury. Something that prevents you from normal operation of work schedule is an injury.

What misinformation are you speaking of? I wasn't aware I wa sgiving out misinformation. Perhaps you could pleasently list the exat areas of my misinformation rather than just spout off negative comments.