Pop Time & Velo

jas critical as the stopwatch times,if not more so is accuracy

Like TR said, accuracy is important. Assuming his throws are close to the bag you're on the right road. He'll grow a lot the next couple years.

I'm in your neighborhood. PM me if you want. I have a catcher son that just graduated from a neighboring school and will be playing at the next level. I might be able to help.

He's pretty accurate during games. At practice, he tends not to be as accurate. When there is a runner needing to be thrown out, if the pitcher gives him a chance, there isn't many he can't throw out. Stanwood, you have a PM. Thanks.

The pop times and velocity are probably in the Top 50 in his class in the country.

I am a pop time/velocity first, accuracy second, guy.

Here is my thinking FWIW.

If you have a runner that steals 2B in 3.5 seconds and a catcher who throws 2.3 to 2B. You need a pitcher who can get it to the plate in less than 1.2 seconds to have a chance on a "perfect" throw. The accuracy is important, very important, in this case.

With the same 3.5 runner and 1.2 pitcher if your catcher pops 1.9 the throw only needs to be somewhere close.

Now if I have a 3.4 runner, my 2.3 catcher can be right on the money accurate every throw and he will never throw out the runner unless the runner slips or gets a bad jump. In 10 steal attempts this catcher will be 0 for 10.

On the other hand the 1.9 catcher with far less accuracy actually will throw this runner out once in awhile. Even the worst accuracy guys will be on the money once in awhile. And he doesn't need to be right on the bag with the throw because he gets it there almost a half second quicker. In 10 attempts this catcher will throw out some runners.

Obviously the best catchers have a quick release, strong arm AND they are accurate. But accuracy only counts when the ball gets there in time. That said, the secret is to improve in all areas.

gametimer, Those pop times and velocity are very good.

I had no idea they were that good. Not a baseball guy other than I love to watch him play and have learned to love the game. Don't tell him that as he needs to continue to think he needs to keep working his tail off. Thanks for the input everyone. Sounds like he's on the right track for what he wants to do which is play at the next level, whatever that might be. He plays with the DBAT Mustangs so he should get plenty of exposure there.

While I humbly defer to the expertise that PG has acquired over the years, i find it hard to buy in 100% to the suggestion that accuracy is not a priority.

True that speed of throw gets it there sooner but its also true that an inaccurate throw adds a lot of time to the tag because it takes a lot longer to move a gloved ball to the tag area than it would for an accurately thrown ball to do the same. And that is without considering the advantage it gives a runner on the angle to take to the bag when he sees where the fielder is lining up his glove to take an inaccurately thrown ball.

Now as to OPs son having those good numbers without formal training, you may not want to slow him down by having him think about a trainers words. Just let him fire away for now. Just sayin....

Just firing away without any training or thought given to technique is a prescription for becoming "unfixable" at some point if the current technique is not good.

Actually, accuracy is very important. However if you can't get it there in time, accuracy becomes unimportant. If you can get it there in time, accuracy is very important. Too slow is simply too slow, no matter how accurate the throw is.

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:
Just firing away without any training or thought given to technique is a prescription for becoming "unfixable" at some point if the current technique is not good.

But if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

W/O seeing the competition or the technique its obviously hard to critique.

Generally speaking from observing my son and his friends, if a player isn't always working to improve his game there won't be any ability to fix it later as he will be done playing.

As the player progress they compete for playing time/opportunities with equally/more talented players, so while his pop times may seem good now, it doesn't mean squat if the competition is better. Good throwing technique etc. takes a long time to get right, if ever at all.

quote:

Originally posted by gametimer:
My son attended his first college camp this week and recorded pop times of 1.95, 2.01 and 2.04 with velo's of 76, 78 & 77.

Gametimer,

Do the pop-times and velo's correlate with eachother? If so, those are indeed well-above average showcase times for a catcher your son's age.

Couple of questions about the timing. Was there a batter in the box during the throw to prevent cheating up early? Was there a runner running? It sounds like your son has a very good arm for his age out of the crouch. Which can make it easier to cheat on a showcase throw without a batter in the box and create an unrealistic pop-time that is virtually impossible to duplicate in a live-game situation.

One thing I will point out that bodes well for your son's mechanics, having not ever seen him, is that the fastest time to 2B was on the slowest velocity throw (if both were in fact timed at the same time). We are only talking about 1 MPH, however, but when dealing with hundredths of a second, it means a lot, especially since there is a 1-tenth difference between the fastest throw and the slowest. What that tells me is that he most likely has a pretty quick release when he focuses on just getting the ball into the air. When he reaches back for something extra, it costs him valuable time. All of this is a bit speculative, however, having not actually seen the throws.

All-in-all, a catcher who can let a ball go out of his crouch in the upper 70's should be throwing around 2.00 with decent mechanics. And even if he was able to cheat out of his crouch early, a showcase throw of under 2.0 is impressive at 16.

Top 50 in his class??? Are you sure? I have been clocked at 1.92 (class of 2015). Does that mean I'm the best catcher in my class?

If you throw the ball to the outfield, does the pop time end as it flies over 2B? Or when it hits the fence?

LE1996- There is sooooo much more to catching than just pop time. Therefore throwing a 1.92 would only prove that you have good catch and throw skills, not that you are the best catcher in your class in the country.

quote:

I have been clocked at 1.92 (class of 2015).

Just curious, but where did you hear that you threw this time? Was it at a showcase, tryout, practice throw that your coach or dad timed?

There are many important variables when considering the validity of those times. Did it happen in a game, with a batter in the box, with a coach timing the throw who knows what they are doing?...That is the only way that throw means much in the wide scheme of things. I can tell you that as a coach who travels around the country training catchers, there are far more "showcase" throws under 2.0 than realistic ones. And most people end up making a false assumption that college coaches can't tell the difference. Certainly not trying to come across skeptical, but having put a watch on some 100-150 catchers from High School to NCAA Div. 1 ball in the past year during game situations or realistic throwing conditions, I can say that the number of true sub-2.0 throws is much much lower than what many people think. I can honestly say that I can count the number of actual game throws under 2.0 on both hands and still have fingers left.

If your throw was in a game with a competent coach holding the watch, then it most assuredly says that you have a very good throw to second base, but there are so many more factors that would go into judging your overall ability behind the plate and the throw itself. Receiving, Blocking, Etc...

One of the most important things to watch for in a catcher actually pertains to the throw. Are the mechanics you use creating an efficient throwing motion or will they compromise your arm's health in the next few years.

I can unfortunately speak from personal experience, as I had an extremely strong arm when I played (85+ out of the crouch by the time I was 18) but the flawed throwing motion I used caused my arm to fall apart far too early during my playing career. Because I was able to throw well at an early age, nobody ever tried to change my mechanics. Trust me when I say that I wish someone would have ignored the times on the watch and said something.

Just something to consider when evaluating yourself or comparing your throw to other catchers around the country, as it is certainly one of the harder things to do as an athlete.

Nice post Jay..... listen to this guy GTIME, he knows what he's talking about! GED10DaD

I saw a local kid who had a PG measured pop time of 1.9. When I looked at the video, he was out of the crouch and just about in front of the plate when he caught the ball. A catcher has 2 jobs when a runner is running 1. LET THE UMPIRE SEE THE PITCH. 2. Then explode out of a crouch and throw.

Another knock against showcases and clinics is when they prove time and again that they care more about collecting fees than they do about proper form.

Of course when you receive a ball hugging the plate and already in a throwing stance you will have great POP.

And the smarter coaches there will discount you severely.

Gotta agree with PG Staff. Most aspects of catching can be taught and improved. Velocity is the one thing that cannot be significantly improved.

When son was a senior in HS I asked the scouting director of the St. Louis Cardinals at a pre draft workout "Why are you so high on my son as a catcher when it's obvious he lacks catching skills?" His reply (regarding his arm strength): "What your son lacks, we can teach.... What you son has, no one can teach".
Fungo

Great post Fungo and so true. PG said the same thing really in his post.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
Gotta agree with PG Staff. Most aspects of catching can be taught and improved. Velocity is the one thing that cannot be significantly improved.

Certainly there are gifted athletes out there, and I believe we all have a "genetic ceiling", some higher than others. However, I would have to respectfully disagree with the idea that significant improvements in velocity cannot be made or taught.

Mechanically speaking, I think we can agree that improvements in the general throwing motion will impact overall velocity in a positive manner. Most people underestimate those improvements and the effect that they can have on velocity and the release efficiency of a catcher.

I've been fortunate to witness the results of three Summer/Fall's worth of an arm strengthening program up here in New England. Two years ago a local catcher went from 73mph to 83mph max velocity, and over 80mph out of his crouch with improvements to just his throwing motion (not throwing mechanics out of his crouch). The average gains throughout the program were around 5 MPH. Just this past year a player went from 83-84mph last year to over 90mph this Fall. After watching video of the throws, one could most certainly tell it was most definitely the result of an adjustment in the throwing motion.

In my opinion, that is very significant. Especially in the context of catching, considering that for every 5mph gain, a catcher will see a 1/10 of a second drop on their throws to second base purely as a result of the velocity increase. That is assuming the improvement in arm action did literally nothing to speed up the release, which is not likely.

Fungo, I would have to guess that your son probably has a terrific throwing motion if a scout singled out that particular skill-set, but IMHO I would argue that what your son does naturally can in fact be taught, and gains in velocity can be significant.

The ability to improve velocity depends alot upon the physical maturity of the player and addressing mechanical issues. Many times the player has the velocity but due to poor mechanics and/or physical conditioning top velocity is rarly achieved so he "looks" slow. i.e. my son is in consistantly high 80's, in HS he consistantly threw around 80-83 with occasional throws over 85 or so. Many would say he picked up a few mph while I think he just became more consistant.

quote:

I would argue that what your son does naturally can in fact be taught, and gains in velocity can be significant.

Sure, gains in velocity CAN be significant. No argument there.... The question remains WHY? Taught or God given???? ANYONE that throws 90 plus has has significant gains in velocity, but for every player that has had significant gains in velocity there are dozens that were taught and DIDN'T have significant gains in velocity..... Male babies aren't born throwing 95MPH..... They picked it up somewhere.

It is possible to teach someone to throw 95 mph. However, it's only possible if that person is "capable" of throwing 95 mph. Unfortunately not many are "capable" of doing it and most who can, came by it fairly "naturally".

It's much easier to master "technique" while working on improving arm strength as much as possible. In many cases arm strength will never reach acceptable standards for certain levels.

If it were any other way professional catchers would be a dime a dozen, at least defensively.

That said, it is possible to improve both technique and arm strength. But the sad truth is... if God didn't give you a good enough arm, your chances of being a catcher at a real high level are very slim, even if you can throw it on the bag every time.

I understand that there are excellent catching coaches who claim other things are more important. I wouldn't call myself an excellent catching coach, but I agree with those who are... However IMO the other things are most important among the pool of candidates. To be in the pool of candidates you have to have acceptable arm strength.

Is the catcher with the strongest/best arm the best catcher? No, not for sure, because all the other things become more important. However, does anyone know of a Major League catcher with a weak arm?

To me, one of the prettiest things I can see on a baseball field is the catcher that has a true cannon! While all things can be improved, that is the most natural thing. When they convert a position player to a catcher, no one is thinking about the guy with a weak arm. Often it's the infielder with a strong arm or even a pitcher. Sometimes catchers even become pitchers because they have real good arms.

The fact is if you want to play at a high level you are going to need to be capable of making accurate throws very quickly. It's hard to say that one is more important than the other (arm strength vs. accuracy) because both of them are very important. Here's an analogy: which is more important to have in a car an accelerator pedal, or a brake pedal? You need both for the car to do what you want it to do. In our case, we want to throw out base runners...we need to be able to make accurate throws very quickly.

With that said, I do think that amateur players should spend the majority of their time focusing on making accurate throws because that is an area that can ALWAYS be improved. I'm also a big advocate of long tossing to develop a stronger arm so I'm not ignoring it, just choosing to place more emphasis on accuracy.

I'm fortunate that I get to work with college athletes. Most of the players I coach are probably already very close to their ceiling in terms of velocity and arm strength. So, do I want them to improve their arm strength? Yes. But, my guys probably benefit more from focusing on improving accuracy so thats what I put the most emphasis on.

If I coached younger athletes, who were much further away from reaching their arm strength ceiling, I might place more emphasis on gaining arm strength and I don't think that is a bad approach for youth coaches to take.

I'll take a guy that throws a 2.0 on the bag every time ALL DAY LONG! The fact is though, that those guys aren't all over the place...they're hard to find! I've said it before and I'll say it again...every time I get a recruiting email about a player, letter in the mail, or I talk to a players parents you can guarantee that I'm told the catcher throws a "1.95". When I put my stopwatch on them the number is usually MUCH different...especially if it's a game situation with a live pitcher and hitter, and the catcher can't cheat because he doesn't know which pitch the runner is stealing on.

If your goal is to catch in HS you might be able to get away with having one or the other. But if you want to catch at a high level college or play professionally, you better have a strong arm and be able to make good throws!

And I'll go ahead and say it for the record...I'm sure if you look hard enough you could quote me as saying "accuracy is more important than arm strength" somewhere.

I've posted this several times in various threads on this board before, but I will do it again: I have personally timed dozens of in-game MLB throw-downs using frame-by-frame video at 60 FPS, and almost ALL of them are right around 2.0.

There was one and one only below 1.9.

I don't doubt that high school kids can throw a 1.9-ish throw in a simulated situation (my son did) but if major league catchers are throwing 2.0's in games, then I take the hundreds of high schoolers with "official" sub-2.0 times with a grain of salt as big as second base.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I have personally timed dozens of in-game MLB throw-downs using frame-by-frame video at 60 FPS, and almost ALL of them are right around 2.0

How have you slowed it down frame by frame to 60fps? TV is broadcast at 24fps.

Of course, there is a big difference between pop times in drills and pop times in games. It's not always possible to get every catcher during a game. In-game pitches with in-game hitters are much different than workout throws. I don't know a single baseball coach or scout who would think that the workout pop times will be the same in actual games. there are differences, not the least involving the throw/pitch. But most kids who can pop in the 1.80 range in workouts without a lot of cheating are the most likely to throw in-game around 2.00.

2.00 on the bag works nearly everytime unless the pitcher is slow to the plate. That is the reason 2.00 is the magic number.

In order to accurately evaluate a catcher the in game throws are far more important. But the workout times help separate which catchers are most likely to be the best in game throwers.

Over the years this has proven to be fairly accurate. If we look at the current Major League catchers that we timed in high school... Nearly, if not all, had excellent pop times and showed good arm strength.

Cheating is a concern, but I think it is overblown to an extent. The biggest cheaters are usually not among the best catchers.

Here's a question... How much time can be cut out of the pop time if someone cheats? You can only cheat so much without it looking foolish. Nobody is out there catching the ball in front of homeplate. Some of the cheating young kids do, actually is counter productive to their pop time IMO.

To me, bottom line... If I'm looking for a prospect, throwing ability and quickness are far more important than accuracy! Accuracy then becomes the most important thing among the group who has the arm and quickness. Arm strength (by itself) is a valuable tool. Accuracy (by itself) only counts if it is combined with other things.

That said, how outstanding catching coaches go about getting the desired results is something they know much more about than I do. If it's accuracy first, and that works, that's great.

I think we all understand the importance of accuracy. It is vitally important! I'm just referring to how it works in scouting. If a scout gets a call from one of his contacts and the word is "This guy has a great arm" that means much more than "This guy is very accurate". Now if the word is "This guy has a great arm and every throw is on the money" That's even more interesting.

Here is the guy everyone projects to be the first catcher selected in next year's draft. There's even an old video of him throwing from behind the plate when he was a freshman or sophomore in HS. Scroll down and all his poptimes (workout) will be listed.
Top Catching Prospect

PGStaff,

I think you basically hit the nail on the head when you said that coaching and scouting are two separate things.

When I am coaching my catchers I talk more about accuracy, and making quality throws. However, when I am recruiting catchers you better believe that I want a guy that has a great arm!

I don't disagree with anything that you've said and I think it's important that people can clearly understand the differences of working with catchers that are already on the team, and selecting catchers to be on the team in the future. Hopefully, I have selected catchers with good arms, and I can make them more accurate throwers!

Catching101,

I'm sure we would agree on lots of stuff.

Also, I'm sure you know much more about developing catchers than I do!

This of course is all moot if the catcher isn't batting his weight. Most programs are looking at offensive qualities over defensive. I know because son worked so hard on defense, not a great hitter, but has good pop and velocity. Hitting will always trump defense.

quote:

How have you slowed it down frame by frame to 60fps? TV is broadcast at 24fps.

I am pretty sure this is wrong. On digital TV, hitting the frame advance button, there are 60 fps.

Each program is different and the level of the players in the program will be different and teams needs will vary. There is a level of defensive ability that must be there. Your not going to catch even if you can mash if you can not catch at a certain level. You may DH. You may go to 1b or corner OF but your not going to catch unless you meet that criteria. What that criteria is will be based the coaching staff. What the other options on the team are. Etc etc.

I am not speaking for Catching101 but I would be willing to bet that he is not going to put a defensive liability behind the plate simply for his stick. There are other ways to get that bat in the line up without hurting the team in a critical position like the catcher is. What about it Catching101?

Thats not to say that a better defensive catcher might not play behind another kid. But that other kid is good enough defensively to get the job done and brings a great bat to the line up. You can bet if that better offensive catcher starts hurting the team behind the plate his bat will be found in a different spot in the line up.

Rob,

I know that all movies and standard TV is broadcast at 24fps (its actually 23.9something to be exact). I would be curious for you to test your tv out. Next time you see a football or basketball game on tv (there is a running clock on the screen) would you mind testing that. I'd be curious if you can press the frame advance button 60 times before :01 is taken off the game clock. Maybe you can, it will be interesting to see?

Coach May,

There is certainly a give and take...I'm going to play the player that gives me the best chance to win. USUALLY, that is the better defensive catcher. I'm also a fan of having more than one full time catcher so that one catcher doesn't catch every game of the season. An ideal playing time split would probably be 60/40 or 70/30. If you catch one player all year long he is going to be physically exhausted by the end of the season and not as productive during the postseason.

But, yes, I am going to generally give the nod the best defensive catcher...as long as he is not atrocious offensively!

The DH can play into this as well. If you have a really good defensive catcher but really weak offensively then it's possible to hit for him with a DH. We did this two years ago when we had a stud pitcher in the high 80's and low 90's. We tried to use one of our better athletes / hitters as a catcher but he just couldn't handle the catching part. There wasn't anywhere else open on the field so we put a freshman behind the plate and the other guy hit for him. Rode them to the state championship appearance.

Obviously we were lucky it worked out that way but you can get creative with the lineup using a DH.

Lots of great points and good information from some very knowledgable people. But the one point I want to make, and PGStaff brought it up, is that I believe there are far more athletes capable of generating those higher velocity's than actually do. If you look at video of throws at the highest level of the game, their movements are much different than what is routinely taught to those trying to reach those higher levels.

What catcher's at that level do naturally, can be taught. Does that mean a catcher whose body is only capable of generating 80 MPH will all of the sudden be able to throw 85 MPH? No it does not. But there are far more catchers capable of achieving a better, faster, more efficient throw to second base than many coaches give credit to. Do I think accuracy is any less important? Absolutely not. But I think it is important to understand that not only can we improve accuracy with instruction, but also the overall efficiency related to velocity in the throw.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
The pop times and velocity are probably in the Top 50 in his class in the country.

These are fine numbers, but rank nowhere close to top in his class. If that were the case, I'd have a first rounder on my hands.

Very few high school catchers are ever drafted in the first round. When that happens it's because of their hitting ability. Brian McCann was drafted in the 2nd round and at the time there were many high school catchers with better pop times. A few years ago Jeff Clement was the first catcher selected in the draft (3rd Over all pick). He was quickley moved to first base. Buster Posey wasn't even a catcher in high school.

quote:

Originally posted by Catcherz_Dad:
These are fine numbers, but rank nowhere close to top in his class. If that were the case, I'd have a first rounder on my hands.

For a rising junior, yes they are. Sort through PG's database and you will see.

Can you tell me when a HS catcher was last drafted in the 1st Round?

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Can you tell me when a HS catcher was last drafted in the 1st Round?

2011 Draft, ABA-ex Blake Swihart, #26 overall to the Red Sox.

Good kid. GED10DaD

quote:

Originally posted by GunEmDown10:

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Can you tell me when a HS catcher was last drafted in the 1st Round?

2011 Draft, ABA-ex Blake Swihart, #26 overall to the Red Sox.

Good kid. GED10DaD

Winner, winnder, chicken dinner. Before that?

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
Before that?

Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 1st RND in 2003 by the Braves??? I think..... Mauer for sure, 1st overall in 2001.

Very few and far between. I know another one they over looked in 2011.... GED10DaD

Checking our database of players, here are some catchers that were drafted in the first rd out of high school since 2001. The number drafted out of college is much higher.

Rough average is one high school catcher drafted in first round or supplemental first round each year.
Many others were drafted in rounds 2-5.

Joey Mauer 2001 Twins
Jeff Mathis 2001 Angels
Jarrod Saltalamacchia 2003 Braves
Neil Walker 2004 Pirates (now plays 2B)
Max Sapp 2006 Astros
Hank Conger 2006 Angels
Devin Mesoraco 2007 Reds
Kyle Skipworth 2008 Marlins
Steven Baron 2009 Mariners
Kellin Deglan 2010 Rangers
Justin O’Conner 2010 Rays
Blake Swihart 2011 Red Sox
Brett Austin 2011 Padres

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I am a pop time/velocity first, accuracy second, guy.

Here is my thinking FWIW.

If you have a runner that steals 2B in 3.5 seconds and a catcher who throws 2.3 to 2B. You need a pitcher who can get it to the plate in less than 1.2 seconds to have a chance on a "perfect" throw. The accuracy is important, very important, in this case.

With the same 3.5 runner and 1.2 pitcher if your catcher pops 1.9 the throw only needs to be somewhere close.

Now if I have a 3.4 runner, my 2.3 catcher can be right on the money accurate every throw and he will never throw out the runner unless the runner slips or gets a bad jump. In 10 steal attempts this catcher will be 0 for 10.

On the other hand the 1.9 catcher with far less accuracy actually will throw this runner out once in awhile. Even the worst accuracy guys will be on the money once in awhile. And he doesn't need to be right on the bag with the throw because he gets it there almost a half second quicker. In 10 attempts this catcher will throw out some runners.

Obviously the best catchers have a quick release, strong arm AND they are accurate. But accuracy only counts when the ball gets there in time. That said, the secret is to improve in all areas.

gametimer, Those pop times and velocity are very good.

This is all well and good, but it assumes the runner is perfect all the time, they are not.

Some runners nobody throwing out just like some catchers nobody running on, few and far between though.

On average all things considered equally, on target, strong throws, with great releases, at any level will get 40% of base runners.

This is rare to get done consistently, on target, strong game throws, with quick releases.


Arm strength determining catchers loses allot of games, but it looks good. :*

Velocity is a small part of the equations of getting a ball to second and the most diminishing return of all factors of time to second.

Just a thought....

I've seen POP times that were below 2.0 that are a direct result of catchers at showcases cheating by quite a considerable amount. In other words, they are squatting right behind the plate (where a bat would take their head off on a swing) and then stepping substantially in front of the plate when releasing. My son is not a catcher so I'm wondering, from those of you who are or who have sons that are, am I off here or should there be a "line" from which they throw (like outfielders) during showcases.

pop times are just indicators---as noted sbove the pitcher and the runner also figure into the equation during a game--- there is no'CHEATING' WITH REGARD TO POP TIMES YOU EITHER THROW OUT THE RUNNER OR YOU DON'T

Agree, TR...

My point was more about the classic throw to second that you see at Showcases (no runner, no batter).

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
pop times are just indicators---as noted sbove the pitcher and the runner also figure into the equation during a game--- there is no'CHEATING' WITH REGARD TO POP TIMES YOU EITHER THROW OUT THE RUNNER OR YOU DON'T

+100%.

You either throw the guy out or you don't.
Pitcher is a bigger factor than a guy throwing 70mph or 90 mph.

reminds me or my earlier history with another sport. Used to raise bird dogs...

A common reference and or distinction to describe a good prospect dog was show or meat.

The show dog looked good all day, but couldn't find a bird, the meat dog found them all day but couldn't win a show.

It was rare that that dog had both, and actualy the trend was to breed for show and was not good for the sport.

You guys can talk about "show" and "meat" all day but the fact is that those catchers who show above average catch and throw skills get college scholarships to big programs. Catchers (now more than ever) are a big defensive need. Shutting down a running game is important. If you have a solid catch and throw guy, you will teach your staff how to help shut down the running game. Why do we assume the guy with the hose isn't accurate?

To the OP, when the 2012 class were juniors, the average pop time for the top 15 pop times was ~1.88 with a velocity of ~80mph. Not far off from where he is.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
You guys can talk about "show" and "meat" all day but the fact is that those catchers who show above average catch and throw skills get college scholarships to big programs. Catchers (now more than ever) are a big defensive need. Shutting down a running game is important. If you have a solid catch and throw guy, you will teach your staff how to help shut down the running game.

To the OP, when the 2012 class were juniors, the average pop time for the top 15 pop times was ~1.88 with a velocity of ~80mph. Not far off from where he is.

Point Yadi Molina 90mph throw, accurate one of the best throwers in the game, threw out 25%
of steal attempts last year, years before around 40%.

So at best at the highest level by the best 40% the best you can do.

Yadi Molina, Hymie Garcia, match up last three years not one runner thrown out on steal attempt at second with this pair. Garcia is slow to the plate and bad at holding runners on, and he's left handed.

So you have the best throwing catcher matched up with a average or below average pitcher on holding runners on, and you have nothing. :]

The teams that spend the time working with pitchers on times to plate, and on holding runners on, are way ahead.

They also tend to have well rounded catchers that can hit, block, handle pitchers, get called strikes*which is my measurement of a catcher* and can run, will win today, especially with the new bat affects... all hands must be offensive today.

showme,

You make some good points that is for sure. However, I think you would agree that all important things are not based on statistics. Maybe I should say any single statistic in the case of a catcher.

All phases of catching are important. When we talk about “pop times” it is just “one” of many important things. Never should it be downplayed as unimportant. Regarding pop times, there is no question that “in-game” pop times are the best measurement. However, the next best measurement is “non-game” pop times. Over the years we have compiled both on many catchers (thousands of catchers) in nearly every case the catchers with the top non-game pop times also had the top in-game pop times. Never have we seen a 2.3 catcher be able to “cheat” enough to pop a 1.8 pop time. I actually believe the cheating usually doesn’t even help the catcher achieve a much better pop time. The quickest we have ever recorded didn’t cheat much, if at all. Catchers with great technique and strong arms always have the best pop times. Those that cheat so much they lose good technique are just hurting themselves. Gaining too much ground takes too much time. Much of the reason for workout pop times being better has to do with the controlled environment. All that said… any catcher that can cheat and throw a 1.7 is very talented. Maybe even talented enough to do it without cheating some day.

BTW, we have thousands of catchers videos from various showcases over the years that people can view for free. I think people sometimes exaggerate the amount of cheating that goes on. It is darn near impossible to catch the ball in front of home plate because the ball is not lobbed to the catcher and it is from a BP distance. At one time we actually had a hitter swing and miss pitches… we had a catcher get hurt. Then we had a staff member just hold the bat over the plate… we had a catcher get hurt. It’s much easier and safer to just look and see who is cheating and who isn’t. It’s not very difficult to pick out.

Now about statistics and Molina…

Last year McCann (all star catcher) started 118 games behind the plate. He had 133 runners attempt to steal. Molina started 131 games and had 65 SB attempts. McCann had 104 bases stolen while Molina had 46.

It’s kind of like the best outfield arm keeping runners from advancing. Seldom do we see the best arms throwing out the most runners because only the +runners would ever test that arm. The great arm is respected, be it an outfielder or catcher.

Anyway this throws some of the stats out the window. Those who do try to steal a base are the +base stealers, no easy CS. Once again, this is based on the ability to get the ball to 2B accurately quicker than the time an individual runner can get to 2B. That is the pitcher to pop + In-Game pop time vs. the runners steal time. Obviously there are variables involved which include the consistency of these times, pitch types and location. Everyone understands how important the pitchers time to the plate plays into the equation as well as the ability to hold runners. If you have a 1.2 pitcher and a 1.9 catcher, don’t run with a 3.4 runner, especially in a fastball count.

Texas Rangers were 5th among all MLB teams in stolen Bases last year. In the World Series (7 games) they stole “one” base. They only attempted 4 SB. All 4 by the same player (he was thrown out 3 times).

That is what is commonly referred to as stopping the running game. Texas catchers also shut down the Cardinals, but the Cardinals were 29th among 30 MLB TEAMS in SBs.

So it wasn’t the statistics, it was Molina’s ability and reputation that stopped the Rangers running game, just as it stops most teams from running.

Everyone realizes that good pop times and strong arms alone are not anywhere near enough to be a great catcher. However, there comes a point where the catcher needs to have the ability to get the ball there on time. Because the guys who steal bases at the highest levels can really run much faster than the average high school player. In fact, the entire game gets faster at every level.

This is actually a good discussion with many good points. I hope some young catchers read it.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
Point Yadi Molina 90mph throw

Just wanted to make sure that any numbers thrown out there are realistic for those trying to gauge their own skill-set.

Yadi is 83-86 out of his crouch. Not 90. Can he crow hop close to 90? There is a very good possibility.

But the MLB average arm strength out of crouch is around 78-82 MPH.

This is info directly from more than one full-time scout.

A lot of people tend to forget that 80 MPH out of your crouch is a cannon!

PG,

Very well said aas usual. For some reason today, I cannot articulate well but you took the words right out of my mouth.


CCJr,

Thanks for the clarification. Yadi has a cannon but I didn't think he was 90 from behind the dish.

BTW, did you happen to get a time on Yadi in the NLDS Game 7 throwing out Utley on the breaking ball? Utley had a great jump and was still out by a step. I timed it 6 times and was right around 1.72 every time. Best time I have ever gotten.

CCJR,

First of all, I'm sure you know much more about catching than I do and I respect that, but I have to dispute the 78-82 average velocity.

Where do you get that information? I have never seen an average velocity for MLB catchers. How is that information compiled?

Personally I think if scouts said that, it was just because they didn't know for sure, anymore than they would know the MLB average velocity at any position other than pitchers. I'm not sure that information even exists. Then again you never know these days with all the new technology.

We have actually recorded velocity of many high draft picks and MLB catchers when they were high school age. 78 is excellent for a high school player and I guess 80 could be described as a cannon. Once in awhile we get mid 80s and even higher in a few cases. I will admit that some of the best pop times we have ever recorded were by catchers with 78-82 or slightly higher velocity. Some were by catchers with lower velocity. there are guys who get it there quickly with low 70s velocity.

For the record, in most cases this is not the result of cheating. And most often these are the kids going high level college or getting drafted.

Wow! I haven't been over here in a while and this is an awesome discussion by all. Thanks for all the input. I'll have my son read all this. I think it is all useful information. Just an update, he averaged 1.9 on two throws this fall in our scout league scout day with a velo of 78 so pretty close to what he did at the showcase earlier this summer. His summer coach told me he had him right at 2.0 most of the summer in game situations, but it is hard to tell as he just doesn't get the opportunity to throw down much in games. Not many runners. Not sure if it was due to my son or our pitchers holding runners well. Probably a little of both. Anyway, thanks for the input. This board never ceases to amaze me with the amount of knowledge and the willingness to share it.

Nice comments appreciated PG. yes I think stats are measurable. Take CERA for example. Mcain Catcher's ERA is much better than Molina's. 3.61 vrs 3.87

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/f...on/c/sort/catcherERA

and yes reputation does keep some from running but is over rated. IE Could have ran at will with Garcia.

And the amount of steal attempts seem to be way down, ie. unnecessary to win a World Championship :]

Need to see the numbers on CS

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/f...ealingPct/order/true

this POP thing is about something that's barely over the Mendoza line. I wonder at times if it's statistically irrelevant.


What I am seeing in travel ball is pitchers becoming the focus on holding runners on. Several pick off per series is common recently.

I think as a result of having 1.9 guys behind the plate and still being able to steal at will, is bringing this change to a field near you.

PG,

The information came from two extremely credible scouts (one who's also a roving instructor within an organization) whose word I would take for face value every time, no questions asked.

Many scouts I know actually do spend time getting the release velocity of balls to second base (and at a lot of other positions as well) and I know for a fact that both of these gentlemen spent time last spring training doing exactly that. Is it an exact average? Nope. It is a very close estimate based on a fairly decent sample size.

Keep in mind we are talking about an average. Some higher, some lower. But we are talking about the whole here. Not the select great arms in the game. There are catchers in the big leagues who come out of their crouch around 75 MPH. There are also a few catchers in the big leagues who can get it up over Molina's average. I do NOT know this as fact whatsoever, but I once heard from a fairly credible source that Taylor Teagarden was high 80's to 90 MPH out of his crouch. Absolute hose. Matt Wieters was also the closer at GT and was clocked routinely at 94-95 off the mound. I am sure he is upper 80's out of his crouch as well if not higher. But most of the catchers in the big leagues aren't anywhere near that velocity.

You mentioned that you have seen some of the top HS guys around that velocity. The thing to remember is that those young guys who are being looked at as a potential draft pick are being looked at in part because of the strength of their arm. I have no statistical basis, but I would venture a guess that the collective out of crouch velocity averages in Double-A are probably better than those in the big leagues. Healthier arms, younger, more athletic players. In time, however, those velocities will likely diminish as the player gets older. They will still have a big league job, however, because of all the other intangibles they bring to the table at that point in their careers. Guys like Jason Varitek, John Buck and Brian Schneider still spend time behind the plate at the big league level, yet their ability to throw out runners is horrendous. They do so because they are able to offer other important qualities to the ballclub. But their out-of-crouch velocities are included in a scout's approximate averages of a big league catcher's throw.

The thing to remember here is that this is all one big math problem. Get rid of the ball around or under .75 with a release velocity of around 75 MPH (127.28 feet per 1.157 seconds, correction thanks to Xan!) = 1.91 seconds. Calculate for the natural deceleration of the ball through the air and you are looking at a throw which is right around the MLB average to 2B. There are HS catchers in the country who can get down around that mark. A 2.0 throw at the MLB level is no different than a 2.0 throw at the HS level if we are strictly talking about time. So to say that there is a big jump in velocity of the catchers at the MLB level simply because they are big leaguers doesn't really make much sense to me. MLB catchers are still, on average, throwing 1.9-2.0 to 2B. So are some of the best HS catchers in the country.


Redbird,

I have seen video of that throw, but I don't trust my internet connection/frame-rate enough to believe that my timing of that throw is accurate. I am, however, getting a similar time. Incredibly quick release, as he was already up out of his crouch before the ball even hit his glove. He actually cheated a bit on that throw (and still got the strike call).

quote:

Originally posted by CCJR:
The thing to remember here is that this is all one big math problem. Get rid of the ball around or under .70 with a release velocity of around 75 MPH (126.5 feet per 1.25 seconds) = 1.95 seconds. Add in the time it takes travel the last 6 inches and calculate for the natural deceleration of the ball through the air and you are looking at throw which is right around the MLB average to 2B. There are HS catchers in the country who can get down around that mark. A 2.0 throw at the MLB level is no different than a 2.0 throw at the HS level if we are strictly talking about time. So to say that there is a big jump in velocity of the catchers at the MLB level simply because they are big leaguers doesn't really make much sense to me. MLB catchers are still, on average, throwing 1.9-2.0 to 2B. So are some of the best HS catchers in the country.

Your math is slightly off. If a player has a release time of .70 and they throw the ball 75mph their pop time would be 1.85.

The distance from the back point of home plate to the middle of 2B is 127.28ft (or 90*the square root of 2 for you geometry guys!).

When the ball is thrown 75mph it is traveling 110fps (feet per second), which means it would travel the 127.28ft in 1.157s.

So...if a player has a release of .7s and is throwing 75mph, the ball will get there in around 1.857s (.7+1.157).

This is based on the catcher releasing the ball directly over the back point of the plate and the middle infielder catching the ball directly over the middle of 2B. For the purposes of math, you must assume those two things to be true. It would be impossible to measure results based on anything other than that (catcher closer or further from home plate, middle infielder catching the ball in front of the bag, wind, friction of the air against the ball, etc.).

I didn't think that I'd ever get to put my engineering degree to use, ha!

quote:

Originally posted by Catching101:

Your math is slightly off. If a player has a release time of .70 and they throw the ball 75mph their pop time would be 1.85.

The distance from the back point of home plate to the middle of 2B is 127.28ft (or 90*the square root of 2 for you geometry guys!).

When the ball is thrown 75mph it is traveling 110fps (feet per second), which means it would travel the 127.28ft in 1.157s.

So...if a player has a release of .7s and is throwing 75mph, the ball will get there in around 1.857s (.7+1.157).

This is based on the catcher releasing the ball directly over the back point of the plate and the middle infielder catching the ball directly over the middle of 2B. For the purposes of math, you must assume those two things to be true. It would be impossible to measure results based on anything other than that (catcher closer or further from home plate, middle infielder catching the ball in front of the bag, wind, friction of the air against the ball, etc.).

I didn't think that I'd ever get to put my engineering degree to use, ha!

Xan, You're absolutely right (post corrected). I actually did the math correctly when I wrote it out. Saw 110 feet and for some reason added the .15 to 1.10 instead of 1 second flat. So the point I am trying to make is that a .75 (corrected from .70) release time with 75 MPH gets you around or under the average MLB pop time...not the average HS time or NCAA D1 time; it's the average Major League Baseball time to 2B. (Change was applied to original post, Thanks for the correction Xan)

We can be as specific about the exact measurements as we want to (I might ask to take advantage of that engineering degree from time to time Xan, lol). But my point remains that there is no big jump in velocity in regards to the catchers who are able to generate pop-times under 2.0 seconds. Regardless of the level they are playing at. You can get to 1.9 or lower with a sub-75 MPH arm. Sure it might take well-above average athleticism, but when you think about the math, a 78-82MPH avg release velocity for a big league catcher shouldn't seem so unrealistic. Especially when you go back and take a look at the average pop-times for high school catchers around the country. It's not near 2.0. Last time I checked it's somewhere around 2.3+ (PG?).

Jay,

You're correct! I just started doing a lot more research this year about pop times, velos, release times, etc. I've come across a lot of interesting info and am enjoying researching it!

Are you guys taking the loss of velocity over that distance into account or just using release velocity over the entire distance?

We all know that 75 mph at release is going to be significantly less than that at 127 feet.

Pitchers throwing 90 mph from approximately 55 feet release point will often register around 83 mph at the plate. The slower the release velocity the bigger (faster) the drop in velocity over any distance (I think).

So if I am correct, 75 mph over 127 feet should lose somewhere in the neighborhood of what??? 15-16 mph? If that is somewhere close, then the average speed over that distance would be about 66-67 MPH. Which would change the pop time considerably.

What am I missing?

Anyway, I still having a little trouble believing that 78-82 average velocity. First of all that is a big range to begin with. While I’m sure there are some old veterans hanging around that might only throw 75 these days, I actually know most of the younger guys. Among that group I would think 82 would be about as low as I would expect. Then again I have seen some great pop times from 78-82 velocity guys. Anything in that area with a quick release = very good pop time!

Sorry, I don’t know what high school average is. Actually that would be impossible to know.

However, I can take all the high school catchers that we have in our database and come up with an average time. Problem is… Would that average tell us anything important? Maybe it would be easier and more worthwhile to list the top 50 or 100 pop times and velocities we have recorded over a certain period. I do know the top two velocities both became pitchers in the SEC. The other problem is that most of the pop times we have recorded are not game pop times, but I’m guessing there would be a lot of familiar names on the list.

PG,

No, that is not taking loss of velocity into account. That is impossible to calculate because of all the variables: head wind, tail wind, does the ball have true backspin and travel straight, some sidespin and cut/run, etc. The only reason the ball loses velocity is because of the friction against the air. If it were in a vacuum the velocity would remain constant.

It's not perfect, but it's probably as close as we're going to get...at least from me!

PG,

We have gotten a bit too technical here with the exact measurements, but it really wouldn't change the poptime at all considering that nobody refers to the deceleration of the ball when referencing release velocities from catchers.

It still comes down to this. 2.0 in high school is NO different than 2.0 in MLB. Just looked at the recorded pop-times during the PG Northeast Showcase. The average of the BEST throws of each catcher there was 2.13, with an average velocity of 76 MPH. Best two throws were 1.97 and 1.96, both with release velocities of 80 MPH. This is a sample size of 31 catchers, most of whom could be considered college prospects and probably doesn't represent the overall averages from the majority of the high school rosters out there. Just the cream of the crop.

Having spoken to countless scouts, roving catching instructors and organization personnel over the years, and timed a great deal of catchers at that level myself, the accepted consensus is that the MLB average throw is around or just under 2.0 seconds. Not 1.7, not 1.8, not 1.9...We are talking about the average.

If the MLB average velocity were higher than 78-82, more MLB catchers would throw sub 1.8s to 2B, and they don't. If they did, you'd have to make the argument that MLB catchers don't have the ability to get rid of the ball as quick as HS catchers, but make up for it with dramatically superior arm strength. While I do believe that age does become a factor in quick release ability, it still doesn't prove MLB catchers are throwing harder than 80MPH on average. It is still just math.

Please understand that these are mostly workout pop times. So in most every case they would be quicker than actual game pop times. This is taken from thousands of catchers since 2003.

Christopher Kirkland 6-3 190 1.72
Dane Phillips 6-2 195 1.72
Tyler Marlette 5-11 195 1.72
Luke Bailey 6-0 195 1.73
Taylor Hightower 6-1 190 1.73
Austin Maddox 6-3 220 1.75
Tyler Marlette 5-11 200 1.75
Brandon Sedell 6-1 208 1.75
Austin Hedges 6-1 185 1.75
Andrew Susac 6-1 190 1.75
Cameron Gallagher 6-3 210 1.75
Robert Scott Leffler 6-2 175 1.75
Eric Haase 5-11 185 1.75
Cameron (CJ) Saylor 5-10 185 1.75
Christian Garcia 6-4 190 1.75
Torre Langley 5-9 175 1.76
Ryan Babineau 6-2 190 1.76
Tucker Barnhart 5-11 170 1.76
Austin Maddox 6-4 220 1.76
Max Stassi 5-10 187 1.76
Christian Carmichael 6-0 187 1.76
Geoffrey Rowan 5-9 185 1.76
Taylor Hightower 6-1 190 1.77
Cameron (CJ) Saylor 5-10 180 1.77
Yasmani Grandal 6-2 205 1.78
Stefan Sabol 6-2 205 1.78
Tyler Austin 6-2 200 1.78
Jacob Felts 6-1 196 1.78
Tyler Marlette 5-10 195 1.78
C.J. Bressoud 6-1 185 1.78
C.J. Bressoud 6-1 185 1.78
Edwin Roman 5-11 210 1.78
Geoffrey Rowan 5-10 180 1.78
Blake Austin 6-1 205 1.78
Cameron Garfield 6-1 195 1.78
Andy Hawranick 6-3 185 1.78
Michael Zunino 6-1 185 1.79
Drew Stiner 6-1 210 1.79
Cameron (CJ) Saylor 5-10 170 1.79
Ryan Saldivar 5-11 178 1.79
Angel Salome 5-9 188 1.79
Chris Okey 6-0 175 1.80
William (Wil) Myers 6-3 190 1.80
Brandon Stephens 5-11 185 1.80
Max Kwan 6-3 200 1.80
Casey Rasmus 5-11 180 1.80
Elvin Soto 6-0 188 1.80
Jason Goldstein 5-11 195 1.80
Michael Zunino 6-2 192 1.80
Jacob Stallings 6-4 175 1.80
Chuck Robinson 6-1 215 1.81
Torre Langley 5-9 170 1.81
Shane Rowland 5-10 175 1.81
Ryan Babineau 6-2 190 1.81
Taylor Hightower 6-1 195 1.81
Jonathan Walsh 6-3 211 1.81
Stryker Trahan 6-1 215 1.81
Christopher Chinea 6-0 205 1.81
Tyler Dial 5-11 185 1.81
Brett Basham 6-2 180 1.81

Here is a list of the highest catcher velocity... also only over the past 7 years. The repeats are because the player threw that velocity at more than one event.

Austin Maddox 6-3 220 90
Case Nixon 6-2 185 88
Danny Rams 6-2 218 87
Anthony Shawler 6-2 180 87
Kyle Skipworth 6-3 195 87
Bryce Harper 6-3 195 87
Brad Lamberti 6-0 200 87
Michael Roberts 6-1 180 86
Torre Langley 5-9 175 86
Blake Evans 6-1 205 86
Christopher Kirkland 6-3 190 86
Jonathan Candelier 6-0 190 86
Edmond Sparks 5-11 195 86
Moises Montero 6-2 215 86
C.J. Bressoud 6-1 185 86
Scott Williams 6-2 175 86
Ronnie Healy 5-11 185 85
Eric Haase 5-11 190 85
Andrew Dunlap 5-10 185 85
Craig Hayes 6-1 210 85
Vincent Tranchina 6-2 190 85
Vincent Tranchina 6-2 190 85
Cameron (CJ) Saylor 5-10 185 85
Stryker Trahan 6-1 215 85
Stryker Trahan 6-1 220 85
Jason Jaramillo 6-0 200 85
John Kresta 6-1 205 85
Austin Maddox 6-4 220 85
Tyler Marlette 5-11 200 85
Edmond Sparks 5-11 195 85
Danny Rams 6-2 220 85
Angel Salome 5-9 188 85
Torre Langley 5-9 170 85
Austin Hedges 6-1 185 85
Blake Swihart 6-1 175 85
JC Coban 6-1 205 85
Brent Lozano 5-10 190 84
Yasmani Grandal 6-2 205 84
Tyler Klein 6-1 180 84
Randy Rosa 6-2 240 84
Michael Roberts 6-0 175 84
Michael Roberts 6-0 185 84
Daniel Elorriaga-Matra 6-0 178 84
Anthony Shawler 6-2 180 84
Joel Collins 6-1 195 84
Kyle Lafrenz 6-3 200 84
Tyler Marlette 5-11 195 84
Garrett Boulware 6-2 200 84
Colt Morton 6-5 205 84
Roidany Aguila 5-11 170 84
Cameron (CJ) Saylor 5-10 180 84
Cameron (CJ) Saylor 5-10 180 84
Cameron (CJ) Saylor 5-9 165 84
Cameron (CJ) Saylor 5-10 170 84
Tim Remes 6-0 180 84
Will Fletcher 6-3 185 84
Craig Hayes 6-1 220 84
Drew Stiner 6-1 210 84
Tyler Austin 6-2 200 84
Robert Scott Leffler 6-2 175 84
Anthony Gonzalez 6-5 245 84
C.J. Bressoud 6-1 185 84
Jarrod Saltalamacchia 6-4 190 84
Luke Bailey 6 0 195 84
Jacob Stallings 6-4 175 84
Dane Phillips 6-2 195 84
Bryan De La Rosa 5-11 205 84
Eric Haase 5-11 185 84
Logan Koch -11 165 84
Jared Cheek
Mario Amaral 6-1 205 83
Scott Williams 6-2 195 83
Chuck Robinson 6-1 215 83
Reed Anthes 5-8 190 83
Joshua Minder 5-11 205 83
Luis Martinez 5-11 180 83
Eddy Rodriguez 6-0 195 83
Tyler Patzalek 5-9 185 83
Rafael Sierra Jr. 6-0 203 83
Tyler Bullock 6-2 205 83
Adam Donachie 6-2 175 83
Robert Scott Leffler 6-2 175 83
Brandon Stephens 5-11 175 83
Brandon Stephens 5-11 185 83
Benji Rojas 5-11 210 83
Maximiano Ramirez 6-2 190 83
Cameron Gallagher 6-3 210 83
Frankie Romano 6-4 225 83

CCJR,

Yes I always prefer to stay away from anything overly technical. It's just the math don't work if it doesn't contain all the factors... Like deceleration. The decelelaration changes the result. But in general I know what you mean and that's good enough.

You guys are the catching experts, I tend to look at everything from a scouting perspective. I just got off the phone with a MLB VP who was a very successful scouting director. Being this topic was on my mind I asked him if he knew what the average MLB Catcher velocity was. He said 1.9 to 2 Flat! I said I know that but what about velocity. He said he has no idea what that would be, their catchers are middle 80s.

That's a little closer to what I would have thought. I base that on the catchers we see drafted more than anything else.

As I mentioned earlier we have seen many 78-82 catchers produce very good MLB pop times. So I can see where the information you got could be correct. It sure does make me want to find out for sure. maybe I'm just too caught up in the Wieters, Mauer, Posey, type arms.

Anyway, it's fun to discuss these things with knowledgable people.

PG,

Thanks for posting all of those pop times and velos...VERY COOL!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I just got off the phone with a MLB VP who was a very successful scouting director. Being this topic was on my mind I asked him if he knew what the average MLB Catcher velocity was. He said 1.9 to 2 Flat! I said I know that but what about velocity. He said he has no idea what that would be, their catchers are middle 80s.

That's a little closer to what I would have thought.

Thats what I would have guessed too...somewhere in that neighborhood.

If they are throwing mid 80's with 1.9 and 2.0 pop times, wouldn't that indicate very slow release times, based on your all's numbers or formulas?

So if MLB is 1.9-2.0/mid 80s, then average D1 college catcher would be 2.0-2.1/low 80s?

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
If they are throwing mid 80's with 1.9 and 2.0 pop times, wouldn't that indicate very slow release times, based on your all's numbers or formulas?

No, not exactly. I was just using the number .7s release time because thats what CCJR had mentioned. In my opinion, a release time of .7s is EXCEPTIONALLY fast...I think a more realistic time is going to be around .8-.9s.

Catching101,

There is video available on most of the players listed in that above post. As you probably know, all the video is free for viewing.

Here is an example from one of the top catchers available for next year's draft. Only this was filmed from his high school years. I don't know how to post the video alone, so here is his profile where the video is located. There are a couple different videos of him catching during workouts. You might need to scroll using the arrow to get to them. Also you can scroll down on the page to see reports from various events he attended.

Mike Zunino

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
If they are throwing mid 80's with 1.9 and 2.0 pop times, wouldn't that indicate very slow release times, based on your all's numbers or formulas?

That is exactly what it would indicate!

However, it is not true.

Here is a clip of Yadier molina getting rid of the ball in around .60 seconds.

http://s1129.photobucket.com/a...t=Molina-Release.gif

Note that the clip is playing with every frame taking .03 seconds instead of the standard .033 of a 30fps video. But this is what exceptional looks like.

I have a bunch of other clips (Will post links sometime tonight or tomorrow) of multiple MLB catchers under .75 on their release. I am still in the process of gathering video clips, but will certainly let everyone know what I find and will provide video evidence.

They are NOT slower. They are incredibly fast. They just don't throw as hard as everyone thinks.

quote:

Originally posted by CCJR:


Here is a clip of Yadier molina getting rid of the ball in around .60 seconds.

http://s1129.photobucket.com/a...t=Molina-Release.gif

Is that the 1.7ish time I mentioned?

redbird 5 Dave Duncan in games when Yadi was younger with game throws 1.6...he would just shake his head and laugh. Wouldn't tell the time cause he knew folks would question his watch.

Which raises the question do game throws for some improve over show times?

I believe release times is a better indicator of catcher potential than how hard one throws, if given one measurement to judge.

It really takes all three MPH, Release and accuracy to throw someone one out, and a fourth, pitcher actually holding the runner on with MPH actually being the lessor of the four things needed to actually throw a runner out. *actually five another player has to get to the right position, the right time, be able to catch the ball and make a tag, no small feat in itself.*

No matter how hard a catcher throws it does not overcome a bad pitching staff when it come to base runners, release times or accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by showme:
...Which raises the question do game throws for some improve over show times?...

It sounds weird but that is how redbirdjr is. He throws very well during showcases and even better during games. A scout I know had him as low as 1.8 in game (I had him 1.87 on the same throw).

We have seen catchers who have thrown quicker pop times in games. One thing to remember is the location of the pitch has a bearing on the over all time. However, for the most part, even without any cheating, the workout times will be lower. This is due to the controlled environment. In 5 consecutive throws, a catcher could have one or two where everything falls in place. In Game, it's one do or die chance.

Is there an actual formula that under normal circumstances gives how much velocity is lost over 127 feet? (I understand there are variables)

Also I'd like to know what the difference in time there would be between 78 or 80 MPH and 85 MPH over that distance. I'm not very good at math.

I do think most catchers can improve their transfer times easier than improve their velocity. Though both can be improved. That is why we started doing both pop times and gun reading years ago. It is another way to show what a catcher needs to work on. Good velocity vs not so good time... Good time vs not so good velocity.

quote:

how much velocity is lost over 127 feet

yes there is loss but it's minor..went looking for an answer found this, very good. The biggest gain are in release times. 1/10 huge in total time.



A catcher’s throw down to second base to nab a potential base stealer is in essence a 3-part skill that can be evaluated for strengths and weaknesses and improved. The three components are: (1) Ball Control and Release Efficiency, (2) In-flight Velocity, and (3) Accuracy. On average a catcher’s success rate is just 25% and, at best, around 50%. Each of the three components of the throw contribute to the success or failure. Without evaluating each part and just practicing the throw, success will only increase slightly. The following is the three part evaluation process, presented in reverse order.

Accuracy is the easiest to evaluate and most observable component, irrespective of the other two parts. Rating a catcher on this portion is just a matter of noting whether or not the ball arrives at the 9″x18″ target some 127 feet away. Practice usually results in improvement unless the throwing mechanics are completely wrong. A simple observation of the act of throwing will tell you if the catcher is doing it right or wrong.

In-Flight Velocity.Once I get the players arm warmed up to game readiness, I have him make 6 throws from a crow hop. He can use whatever mechanics he likes to generate the maximum velocity he can. I time that on the Jugs gun. I get 6 readings; I throw out the fastest, and the slowest, and average the other 4. This gives me an average max velocity. I then have him get into his crouch. I throw him pitches down the middle and have him throw down full speed. I again have him do this 6 times and use the same method to determine his average maximum throw down velocity. After timing over 500 catchers this way I have found that a drop in velocity of less then 3% from max velocity to throw down velocity is the goal. More of a drop then that and there is something in that player’s mechanics of his throw to second base that is excessively “eating” velocity. At that point a close evaluation of those mechanics is needed.

Velocity is all over the map for me when I look at the database of kids I have timed. If I look at the High School Max-velocity kids as a group the low side is in the low 60’s. Good for HS would be low-mid 70’s, excellent would be 78-82. In the College group the low side is 70-74, good would fall in 75-79, excellent would be 80-84, 85+ would be a serious prospect as far as velocity goes.

Ball Control & Release Efficiency. To evaluate this component I use the following technique. I position the player in front of the black Jugs tarp that hangs behind home plate in our batting cage. I measure out 10 feet and draw a line. It must always be 10 feet. The player puts his toes on the line facing the black screen. The coach kneels in front of the catcher, slightly off center. The player gets into his secondary receiving position. The coach throws the “pitch”. Player completes a full speed throw into the screen. The stopwatch is started when the ball hits glove and stopped when the ball hits the screen. The player must sit on the strike and not move until the ball hits his glove as if it were an 0-2 count late in the game. Because the catcher is releasing the ball about 5 feet in front of the screen, arm strength has little to do with the time recorded on the stopwatch. The drill gives an accurate measurement of how fast the athlete gets it in the air. You can also have the catcher throw directly into the fence backstop, but I find the tarp makes a more precise sound when hit, making it easier to ensure a good clocking.

Ave release times for High School players would be under .85 down to .78, good would be .78 down to .70, and excellent would be .69 down to .65. Below .65 is very fast for HS. For the College players in my database the average release times would be under .78 down to .70, good would be .70 down to .65, and excellent would be .65 down to .59. Below .59 is really moving. Fastest release I have ever timed at any age is a 14yr old that throws in the .49-.52 range. He is just amazing.

While some critics of the evaluation process mention that it does not incorporate all the variables of a game situation, it does give a good base for comparison between any groups of players. Using these measurement techniques allows me to break the throw down into its 3 different phases and better be able to attack the area of greatest weakness in any given player.

I have a number of college players that have guns for arms, velocities out of crouch 85MPH+ but have slower releases then a number of high school kids. The above evaluation technique has enabled me to isolate what section of their throw is the weakest and look for the flaws that are eating time. Likewise I have some players that have lightning fast releases but 65MPH velocity. Again it helps me direct their training efforts in the area of greatest weakness.

http://www.catchingcamp.com/ar...-a-catchers-release/

The way I understand it...

Yadi

.60 release 86mph velocity +- 1.7 pop time

.70 release 81mph velocity +- 1.85?

.70 release 75mph velocity +- 1.95 2.0 ?

we have 1/10 gain or loss for every 5mph loss or gain
the release gain needs a number to finish the equation, I do not have..

We have seen many 4-seam fastballs lose approximately 7 MPH by the time they reach the plate. That is over about 55' distance.

Stands to reason a catcher's 127 foot throw would lose considerable velocity by the time it reaches the target. Actually I would think the farther the ball travels it loses speed at a more rapid pace.

So in order to get a true time that represents velocity, it would have to include the overall velocity or average over 127'. Obviously this is something less than using the release velocity.

Maybe someone with a physics background can help here. If the throw is 85 at release and 70 at the target (127') how long did that throw take to get there? Vrs. just using 85 MPH over the whole distance? I think that will give us a better idea of the importance or unimportance of velocity for a catcher.

For me, I'll still be looking for the big arm and the quick release. Then among that group find out who the best over all catchers are. The quickest guy or strongest arm doesn't always turn out to be the best catching prospect.

quote:

Maybe someone with a physics background can help here. If the throw is 85 at release and 70 at the target (127') how long did that throw take to get there?

this request needs a release time unless you are just measuring from hand release to bag.

1 mph per 7 Feet a general rule., takes 81mph to take the arch completely out of a ball to second another.

Why MPH gains are diminishing returns, takes 5 to gain one and still lose some, release gains are 1 to 1 to 1.5 to 1, best place to improve.

OK PG I took a stab at this. First my assumptions are that at these velocities the every thing is linear. This is not 100% the case but should be close enough for this discussion.

So if we assume the ball looses velocity at 7mph per 55 ft then a ball would loose 16.16 MPH from catcher release to 2nd base. We can therefore assume that on average the ball travels at a velocity of 8MPH less than the release velocity of a catcher.

So for an 85 MPH release the average vel would be 77MPH = 113 ft/sec

For 70 MPH then it would be 62 MPH.= 91 ft/sec

So for these two velocities you would get average travel time of:

85MPH release = 1.12secs

70MPH release = 1.40secs

Difference = 0.29 ~ 0.3 sec for a 15MPH difference in release velocity.

I did a 10MPH difference just to give you a even number to keep in the back of your mind.

75MPH release = 1.29 sec

So this is a 0.17 secs per 10MPH so an easy number to remember would be about 0.2secs for every 10MPH or 0.3 secs for 15MPH.

So for catchers with the same catch to release time and one throws 10MPH harder he would be 0.2 secs faster, which is significant.

Hope this helps.

Guys,
Lots of great info. As we factor it down, it becomes apparent throwing velocity is a key ingredient in low pop times.Build arm strength & throw with intent. That "nice & easy just get rid of it fast approach" will generally not cut it. I prefer the "turn it loose mother goose" approach. Yes I know that accuracy will suffer,but the get rid of it quick approach generally does not produce the player's best glove to glove times.Accurate & late is still a stolen base & 2.20 glove to glove times does not excite anyone. While aggressive let it fly throwing is usually faster & can always be geared down.It's a lot easier to say "whoa than giddy up." The nice an easy may produce a 2.20 & be accurate while the throw with intent may produce a 1.98 & be inaccurate.For me, it's a lot easier to get to 2.0 and accurate from the throw with intent approach.Let's not forget about rotation to insure "in line carry." Distance magnifies poor rotation. The ball that sinks or tails will lose more velocity as a result of the movement plus force is not being applied from directly behind the ball. Six to twelve rotation is imperative. Use stripped balls &/or throw down the foul line to monitor rotation.

The body organizes itself based on the goal. If the goal is a 2.00 glove to glove time chances are the player will have to acellerate his arm to achieve it.Become a good aggressive thrower 1st & then focus on accuracy. It's like our young pitchers. We teach them how to become a pitcher before they become a good thrower. We hand Johnny the ball & tell him to throw it nice & easy & just hit his target. As Johnny matures he has engrained those nice & easy mechanics that produce a 77 mph fastball & we wonder why.The same thing happens to our catchers when we don't let them empty the tank early in the process.( I'm not talking about early in the laerning process for very young & inexperienced throwers.)

JW

Yes lots of good information.

My point is this, release time is equal to velocity time, in throw to second. The guy throwing to second ten mile a hour faster takes 2. tenths more to release than the ten MPH slower guy, same pop, to just doesn't have the aesthetics.

What happens at the lessor levels is the arm wins no matter what and you get catching candidates promoted or kicked to the curb base solely on the mecca of arm.

and the big arm guy that's not accurate is like dating a beautiful woman with a chastity belt...

it looks good but your not going to get any. Lots of time on the bench can you tell, sorry.

I am not on that big arm alter, to me out is out, and Tom Glavine can pitch for me any-day. :]

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
We have seen many 4-seam fastballs lose approximately 7 MPH by the time they reach the plate. That is over about 55' distance.

Stands to reason a catcher's 127 foot throw would lose considerable velocity by the time it reaches the target. Actually I would think the farther the ball travels it loses speed at a more rapid pace.

So in order to get a true time that represents velocity, it would have to include the overall velocity or average over 127'. Obviously this is something less than using the release velocity.

Maybe someone with a physics background can help here. If the throw is 85 at release and 70 at the target (127') how long did that throw take to get there? Vrs. just using 85 MPH over the whole distance? I think that will give us a better idea of the importance or unimportance of velocity for a catcher.

For me, I'll still be looking for the big arm and the quick release. Then among that group find out who the best over all catchers are. The quickest guy or strongest arm doesn't always turn out to be the best catching prospect.

PG - In my son's latest PG analysis, it stated that his throw had "carry through the bag". Is that saying that the throw was maintaining a good velocity to (and through)the target? Or is it referring to something else? Thanks

You can not make the assumption that a kid throwing 10MPH faster takes 0.2 secs longer to do it.

Let me guess your son is a catcher, with a weak arm, who is accurate?

We see the same arguments in the pitching forum about how young kids can get outs with curveballs and changeups. College pitching coaches only care about velocity, they will teach them to pitch. There is a growing philosophy in pitching circles about teaching pitchers to throw hard with intent. Jerry just pointed out what sounds like the same thing in catching.

Learn to throw quick and hard and the college coaches will fix the accuracy. (oh yeah and be a left handed power hitter as well )

Cheers back to pitching and the really wild guys in the hitting forum….

geez... its numbers in an equation. Faster releases slower mph = faster mph slower release. it's a simple thing and BOF till now didn't evolve shots, good for you for being the first.

I got two stories...
I had one of these big arm no accuracy guys until my shortstop broke his leg tracking down one of his bad throws up the first base line. Guy didn't catch any more, that was a personal thing and I guess still not over it.

another.. had a friend, minor league pitcher, told me he never thought about or checked runners until the catcher hit him in the arse with a throw to second and told him too. I want that catcher how do you measure that?

What is amazing to this point also is there been one comment to date on results actually getting some one out that was by TR hit.

contrary to conscious it's about getting a runner out a second. All you can ask of a catcher is to get the ball accurately and quickly to second around 2.0.

Any thing more than that, ie you have to do at 85mph is a reflection of the time we are in, and will change when enough best candidate are not found, like in the 70's when they demand just give me a guy with speed we can teach them to hit. That worked out.

A better test would involve accuracy and a release measurement, along with the current MPH testing. They changed the bat testing why is this a suggestion out of line... it's not.

Done here, enjoyed it.

My point in this discussion is simply this, velocity (arm strength) is very important. Of course it's not the only important thing. All by itself, arm strength is not enough. Release time is very important, it's not the only important thing. Accuracy is very important, but only if the ball gets there on time.

Stolen bases are often bang, bang situations. If I have two catchers, both with the same release times and all else equal... The one with the best arm will standout.

I believe young catchers should work on improving arm strength. In fact, they should work on every phase of the game that can make them a better player.

Thanks to all for this very interesting discussion.

Just having some fun showme…..because on the pitching side it always seems like many dads of younger kids come here enamored with “junk” when they should be focused on velocity development. They keep going on and on about how their little Johnny is striking out kids and not hurting his arm throwing CB’s.

Jerry pointed out quite nicely what a young catcher should be focused on. No better person than him to know what their focus should be.

Anyway throwing a baseball at high velocity can be done quickly if you accelerate your arm faster, it does not have to take longer

There are some nice “rule of thumb” numbers here I think.

Cheers!

BOF,
I think for catchers sometimes the velocity vs. winding up trade doesn't pay off. There's a point where quickness is more important and that's why you'll see a catcher with a big arm throwing in the mid 80's to second base when he's probably got a 90+ arm.

All the rest still holds. A catcher needs to develop the ability to throw quickly and hard and to be able to repeat that motion. Once you posit the mechanics necessary for a quick release then one would expect a higher velocity throw to also be a slightly quicker release throw.

For the other poster, I think that carry through the bag is probably a result of backspin given equal velocities. One can throw on a bit more of a line at a given velocity with more backspin. That's an attempt at making a technical explanation for something that is really just more of a feel.

Got it CADad.

PG,
For a catcher for the next game I'll take either one. Projecting into the future I'll take the one with the stronger arm because it is probably going to be easier to improve his mechanics to speed up his release than to improve the other catcher's arm speed. Of course, I'd really take the one who was the better hitter regardless.

5 pages worth of statistics and numbers, release speeds and physics, great arguments on all sides of the page, concepts and ideas from coaches, trainers and players and in the end it comes down to how good a "hitter the catcher is"....Awesome.

LakeSide,
Sounds like you have some issues with the reality of it.

Jerry W, outstanding post.

Nope, just new to the concept.

Hitting and arm strength are what my son is working on this winter.

I don't even think any of this is true anyway. There are a million other factors that a catcher needs. I am a high school catcher from Crete Monee HS in Illinois and my lowest velocity from the crouch is 76 mph, my lowest pop time is a 1.85, By Roosevelt university. anyways any catcher reading this blog shouldn't worry about his pop time. he should be more focused on calling a game, framing and making sure he isn't chasing the ball to the back stop every other pitch. Pop time doesn't even matter if you have a slow release pitcher. Pop time means practically nothing compared to all other aspects of catching it is the last thing a SMART college coach looks for in a defensive catcher.

Johnny,

No doubt about it, there are many things that are important.

However, telling catchers to not be concerned with throwing or pop times and that those things don't matter, is not good advice. Ask any SMART college coach or MLB scout.

Let us know if you ever see a catcher drafted or playing at a top college program that can't throw or with a real slow pop time.

Throwing is not everything, but you are limited as a catcher if throwing is a weakness. BTW, it appears that you have that skill.

While we ALL use glove to glove for our pop time (I am including myself here), a MUCH better indicator that would settle the discussion is glove to tag time. That way a 2.0 is a 2.0 whether it got there in 1.8 but off the mark or in 2.0 on the money. I always tell myself I am going to refer to this more, but with the gold standard being glove to glove, I feel like I have to know what my catcher's time is using that measurement! Put me down in the yea column on the vote to change to glove to tag being the standard!!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
..Let us know if you ever see a catcher drafted or playing at a top college program that can't throw or with a real slow pop time...

I have. They are called firstbasemen.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
..Let us know if you ever see a catcher drafted or playing at a top college program that can't throw or with a real slow pop time...

I have. They are called firstbasemen.

.... and then, a FAN. GED10DaD

if you can record consistent +/-2.0 in game situation you have enough arm strength/footwork to play past high school. what is talked about on this thread is very true. in a showcase tryout you can cheat by moving in front of the plate before the pitch gets there (like you do on a pitchout in the other batter's box). played with a kid that threw 1.95 to 2.0 between innings and never broke 2.1 in game situation. he is playing juco ball now so that is enough to move on if you can get it close.

Major League Catching Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N83z9RlP1yI