Position at toe touch.

Leading with the heel will help prevent the hips from opening too soon.

I would suggest you scroll down this forum to Seadogs post of swing clips and review what going on during those swings as a start.

CV

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."

Earl Weaver

Rocket

Great topic..I am anxious to read what other say. You must consider this topic from two perspectives. Off the Tee and Off Live arm.

Many players toe comes down with the upper body in good shape off the tee. The game swing shows something altogether different.

The question of "great swing but can you hit with it?" has more realism than sarcasm sometimes.

Garciaparra is a great model ..like him or not. His hip line is pointed to the pitcher , his shoulder line to 2B , his bat is c-ocked and upper body loaded. He has reduced it to one move. Coil your hips in time with the pitcher coiling his( this seems to pull his front heel up) then he replaces his front foot and hits.

Some say he has a short stride. I think he coils and replaces his foot and I think the difference does mean something. THe last to coil is the first to fire. He leads with his hips.

Garciaparra is not in conflict with Epstein-isms. He makes it simple.

What does all this mean..starting in a good position is the only assurance that the toe will touch with everything in a good position.

I am playing the good odds!!

Swingbuster, what do you attribute this to?

quote:

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Many players toe comes down with the upper body in good shape off the tee. The game swing shows something altogether different.

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I happen to agree.

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Bighit15,

I know you addressed your question to swingbuster, but...

In many cases that I've seen, FEAR plays a part. At the time that they should be loading the upper body, they're still waiting to see if the pitch is going to hit them. Then, by the time they realize that it isn't, there's no time left to load properly, so they just drop the hands and swing.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but, from what I've seen, there are other signs coupled w/ this that lead me to believe FEAR to be a possible culprit (i.e. stepping in the bucket).

Big HIt,

I did tee work with three HS players last week. I got them to load(scap load their shoulders)during their stride into toe touch having the hands back and the bat centered at toe touch.

They had power, gap to gap direction, stopped circling the ball on the ground to third and I thought they "got it".

Watched them take L screen BP the next week. All three were back to their old ways. It was disappointing.

Why do they do it?
1. old habits dating back to LL
2. ball fear? true many times but this was 48 mph
3. not being able to multi-task i.e. working the upper half back as the front side moves forward and hips open. It is a complex move

4. have not had the benefit of video analysis to get a mental picture

5. Not truely believing how important it is to their success as a hitter

My own son cannot do it all the time and he knows better so we are working like Nomar....successfully .

These kids play three sports and there is not enough hours in the day

quote:

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Originally posted by swingbuster:
2. ball fear? true many times but this was 48 mph

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Though they may not be afraid of BP-speed pitches, perhaps habits engrained at the plate during games are just hard to break?

True Sandman..

They are conditioned to run first hit second. Also not conditioned to escape inward maybe. Can't commit to the pitch.......

Does the slight seperation at toe touch(hips at pitcher, and the shoulders at 2nd) occur during the stride, before the stride, or as the toe is landing? I am trying to figure out if you should start in this position or if you coil to that position during the stride.

Also, I would like to have a picture of the proper position of the hands/bat at toe touch.


Thanks for all your help so far.

Though this doesn't really answer your first question about when the separation occurs, it may address your second request - though it is more like at "heel drop" than at "toe touch". I made it this morning for a Batspeed.com X-factor Stretch thread.


FWIW, after a quick glance at some of the clips (esp. from pitcher view), I'm guessing that we'll find that this separation occurs in varying degrees at all 3 of the time times you mentioned - before, during and after the stride. Perhaps it's more important that the hitter achieve some of this separation before launch than exactly at what point they started.

Let's see what others say.

Sandman..totally agree.
I like to get some in the waiting period and stretch it in the heel/drop early rotation. Also make sure the hips turn to completion on each swing, especially middle in pitches.

You will see it done several ways. In youth ball you will notice a conspicuous absence of it through the entire swing.

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/nomar3.mpeg

*di**d

Rocket,

Follow the Glauss clip to toe touch:
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Glauss02.mpeg

Notice the hands are back, about shoulder height. Front shoulder slightly closed, hips about parallel to the plate. Bat is back and ready to go. Swingbuster would say it is centered. Feet can be closed (like Glauss) to 45 degrees open. Body is centered between his feet. Line along the toes would be about parallel to the plate.

Toe touch is not a destination, it is a point along the way. Glauss already knows he is going to swing by the time touch touch occurs.

No stride drills are an excellent way to incorporate this into the swing. You can put the kids in this position so they can feel it and get used to it.

Nick

Swingbuster, thanks for the response. I agree with your assessment, all but number 2, but that could be a factor, but shouldn't be. Thanks

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Nick,

You mentioned the body (weight) centered.

I like to look at three things.

Is the bat centered, is the weight centered and is the ball centered( 1/2 the way between the mound and home plate at toe touch.)

A neat hitting spread sheet could be made to grade batters on each pitch in these three areas. Batters that got their bat in position, their weight balanced , while the ball is 1/2 the way home would likely hit for a high average. I think I can watch those things on each pitch...or I think I can. Maybe these things are what we are really seeing when we say a guy has a great swing

Just a few more questions!

At what point does the inward turn of your shoulders become too much of a turn? Any good cues for this motion?

Do you think early seperation(between shoulders and hips) is important in regards to power for a young player(9 or 10 years old)? I believe it is very important. They seem to slap the ball without a good coil at the beginning of the swing. They lose connection between the hands and the shoulder too early in the forward motion of the swing. But, I would be interested in hearing what you think!


Thanks for all your help.

This is a General Items Topic?

Rocket,

I don't like the term turn. Watched BP tonight for JV bunch. Standing by a kids' Dad and said if he keeps his hands back he will hit it 70 more feet. He said "tell him". I said" keep your hands back and the bat cocked until your toe touches. Bang.... He started hitting shots. For most kids keeping the shoulders in and hands c-ocked until the hips begin to rotate open is plenty of separation if their hips fire aggressively. I watch the lead elbow at toe touch. If it is behind the belly button there will be good bat speed( as seen from the 1st B dugout)

Game ..we are just speaking in general terms here

Thanks Swingbuster.


So, the inward coil of the shoulders is a result of getting the hands back during the stride and while the hips are opening. Does this mean you should teach young hitters to get the hands back early and leave them there, or would you have them load(scap load) during the pre-swing movements?


Have a great day!

I like to get the hands back c-cocked( 90 degrees to the forearm) and the lead elbow equal to or behind the belly button. This tells me the hands are back by virtue of the shoulder load/rotation ( around the axis to where the shoulder line is more toward 2B) . The feet need to be in line with the throwing arm of the pitcher. In youth ball is you can do this before the ball is pitched you will have more success. If they hit with hip/shoulder separation for a long time they cannot imagine swinging a bat w/o it. If they want to load during their stride later or if you have kids that can actually do it now then leave them alone. There will not be many

I will certainly work on what you are describing.

Thanks!

Rocket...

Forgot...keep a 90 degree in the lead elbow . The line from down the humerous, across the forearm and back up the bat should form a large U. Form the U and then rock the U until the lead elbow is somewhere between the belly button and rear foot. You do not what the lead arm barred out in the waiting period or before launch.

Why not swingbuster?

I've heard people talk about a barred lead arm contributing to power. Not that I agree with that... I'm just curious what you had to say about it.

Jason

IMO.. The short radius swing by definition must be launched with the elbow bent. While it might not remain 90 degrees at launch, it is still bent and rarely straight. Youth hitters tend to push the arm back toward the catcher. This is a linear move that is arm dominated instead of shoulders loading around the axis ( a circular move). If it is loaded linear ;it will unload linear. It will likely get outside of the target line and tend to "chicken wing " through the zone. Can't remember a barred arm at toe touch yield a circular hand path in kids.

It is advisable to keep the hands quiet and back and relaxed and let the hip rotation bring them out of their "pocket". If we want X-factor stretch that Tom talks about, then the hips must increase the X angle at heel drop.

Improper upper body hand/arm movement or positioning going into toe touch can sabotage great lower body mechanics. Furthermore, can reduce the X angle and potential for X factor strech /torque. When kids can't locate torque the right way they start some mighty bad habits

Thanks for the explanation!

Jason

I've been thinking about this very thing swingbuster. As you can tell, Kevin does push his hands more straight back than around his body, and it does yield a chicken wing after contact.

I plan to spend some time w/ him on "hiding the hands" while "holding the U" (bent lead elbow), coupled w/ "striding to balance". Get these 3 right and IMO there's a very stable base from which to launch.

Thanks!

Get these three right and you have Luis Gonzalez!!

Yes indeed.

Tonight, I worked with my team on getting into the U postition and back to the center of the body with the lead elbow. You would not believe the difference in their swings!!! It is possibly the best advice that I have ever received. Young kids can grasp it very easily, and it does a wonderful job of getting them properly loaded.


I have been working hard on rotational mechanics, but I wasn't having any success with teaching the early upper body seperation. Until now!

Thanks for your help.

Rocket,

THanks..I was feeling lonely and misunderstood. I had watched kids for 10 years get immediately better keeping the bat cocked and hands back even before I understood why. As I read and studied I realized I was creating "separation" then I read I was creating X stretch factor. All I knew is that I was creating pop in their swings with one simple move.

While Epstein is famous for lower body mechanics ; Mankin said he had never seen a kid that loaded his upper body correctly that had a bad swing. I knew when I fixed the upper body the seemed to stop lunging ect.( lower body stuff) as long as they kept the shoulder in and hands back.( with the right muscle groups) Next you should make sure the hand path ( lead elbow up and rear elbow slotting) is working. They get that quickly and it gets on plane but as importantly it allows rotational follow through and keeps them balanced through contact and release. If the bat is centered at toe touch they can rip a baseball....game/set/ match. It is all outlined on a CD www.swingbuster.com

Rocket,

AS you progress you must pay attention to alignment. A coach must stand behind these kids at BP and make sure their feet line up to the throwing arm of the pitcher. As they rock the U the shoulders will align more to 2B.

**** if they start working their feet around slightly closed to 2B( which 100% will) then they have lost the x angle we created at set up and their head tracking positon. We want some hip /shoulder separation at set up. Slightly open is much better than closed. It pays to have a parent behind the backstop in a game watching this and making notes

Plan on spending as much time watching the alignment as needed. When they align closed , I lay the bat down across the toe line and make them walk behind and see where the bat is pointed. That seems to get the concept across. My experience would suggest 6-8 years is sufficient to correct this problem. Seriously, they get excited in a game and stop aligning correctly. This is huge but fixable.

After I am sure they understand , if they come in for their BP and set up wrong I send them back to the out field. Believe me ...they will get it right next time. Small errors in alignment can negate everything you are doing. I tell them there is no time limit on getting set up before the pitch is thrown and no excuse to do it wrong.

Once again, serious hitters need to thoroughly study this page.

Please excuse this post showing up in General Items Forum, please accept apology in advance, just think many can benefit if serious about hitting.

Shep

I made this post at about the same time that I decided to learn everything that I could about hitting. I feel that I have learned a lot since this post (I've read information just about everyday since posting this). However, I still use the cue "lead elbow back to the center of the body" to describe the position that I want my players to be in at launch. Instead of "U", I now use "box".

rocket

It is apparent that swingbuster does an excellent job in this thread gaining your interest and holding even till now.

I have been absent a couple of years but in the process of catching up and stumbled upon this thread.

This is unselfish and informative. Can't steal from this information>

Weeelll "L", Shep

quote:

Improper upper body hand/arm movement or positioning going into toe touch can sabotage great lower body mechanics. Furthermore, can reduce the X angle and potential for X factor strech /torque. When kids can't locate torque the right way they start some mighty bad habits

Swing, splain how kids can't grasp this please. RS

The first movement of the body to position the hands is critical. The brain talks to the hands best and the hand action in response to the visualization of a pitcher breaking over is a reaction. For most kids it is the the wrong reaction and the proper move is counter intuitive.

Most kids push the hand back and barr out to connect or draw back to hit. Some drop the hands way low and others make improper negative moves. 100% will do the wrong thing positioning the hands.

The golf swing is double pendulum( Guerry) but the baseball is triple pendulum...shoulder, BENT LEAD ELBOW, and wrist. If the arm straightens your playing golf and your swing is too long.

So, I would start by having the loaded box close to the optimum location in the set up for little guys until they can learn to morph into that position from the waiting position.

Then the hand action can be bottom hand under top allowing elbow freedom to support this but the arm length never changes and wrist stay fixed but not tense. The position of the hands is near the shoulder tip but lowering them to the arm pit area can be good. There will be bat plane changes from behind the head to at least splitting the helnmet or more

As a rule, they will continually try to get the hands away from the body too far. This is the intuitive flaw built into most kids. In reality keeping them in the correct relative position and in closer than they think keeps your swing connected to the core move/ rotation. The neg hand move which is a slight inward tuck and relative elbow position change occurs in concert with the neg hip coil and bend at the waist as you take your stride. You don't practice rotation BEFORE YOU PERFECT THIS...you DO practice this complex move that defines hitters AND LEADS TO GOOD ROTATION...

CAN YOU LOAD YOUR HANDS AND COIL YOUR HIP AS YOU MAINATIN GOOD POSTURE AND TAKE YOUR STRIDE. THERE IS A NEGATIVE MOVE OF HIPS AND HANDS OCCURING AS YOU BEND AT THE WAIST AND SHIFT THE
WEIGHT QUIETLY. THE NEGATIVE MOVES BALANCES THE POSITIVE MOVE.

THERE MUST BE EQUAL ENERGY APPLIED TO LOADING AND SHIFTING TO METER THE WEIGHT FLOW FORWARD IN A CONTROLLED MANNER ....THAT IS WHAT HITTERS BALANCE REALLY IS ABOUT

THAT GREAT TIP( NOT MINE) ABOUT KA-POW IS USEFUL. THE KA IS THE NEGATIVE MOVE AND THE POW THE SWING. ONCE WE ADD THE CADENCE TO THE PROCESS KIDS CAN BE TOLD ..SLOW IT DOWN AND FEEL MORE KAAAA-POW.

MY VARSITY KIDS STILL WATCH A FRIEND HIT POORLY IN THE CAGE AND LAUGH AND SAY " NO KA MAN"...THEY KNOW THEY HAD A LAZY LOADING( NEGATIVE) PHASE THAT WAS OUT OF SYNCH

The further skinny arm kids get the barrel away from the core the more slack gets in the swing causing a step then pull effect. They should be turning the hands under( hand loading) and over in plane without the arms getting out of the bend through elbow and shoulder action that is programed through a feel of turning the bottom hand under the top and then back on plane as you hit the ball with your hip rotation.

Teaching hip rotation alone by those inexperienced in the big picture will not help them hit if it is not all inconcert with this upper body move and hip col occuring during the stride that sets up the rotation.

IF KIDS AND DADS COULD FIGURE THIS OUT THROUGH PRACTICE IT WOULD GE GREAT BUT THEY CANNOT WITHOUT SOME STUDY AND HELP

Swing

Believe it or not, I was able to follow your post, even though very looonngg.

One thing you pointed out that made sense was in reference to "arms getting away from the body" Hold on and I'll cut and paste.

Shep

quote:

The further skinny arm kids get the barrel away from the core the more slack gets in the swing causing a step then pull effect. They should be turning the hands under( hand loading) and over in plane without the arms getting out of the bend through elbow and shoulder action that is programed through a feel of turning the bottom hand under the top and then back on plane as you hit the ball with your hip rotation.

How about player with healthy arms?

You sure were up early-LOL

Shep

quote:

How about player with healthy arms?

You sure were up early

Applied to health arms to. Skinny kids can get in weird positions.

To bed early too