Power or Batspeed?

Bat speed.

Don't most power hitters have both?

power comes from the batspeed...everything else constant, the higher the batspeed, the greater velocity the ball comes off the bat, and the further it goes.

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Originally posted by greenmachine:
power comes from the batspeed...everything else constant, the higher the batspeed, the greater velocity the ball comes off the bat, and the further it goes.

100% agree. "Bat-speed" is power. The moment of impact is so short, the only factor that has any influence is the speed of that impact (well, and the quality of that impact).

If two guys can swing the bat at the same speed and one can swing a heavier bat, they will hit the ball farther.

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Originally posted by powertoallfields:
If two guys can swing the bat at the same speed and one can swing a heavier bat, they will hit the ball farther.

That sounds right; though I remember thinking that there were diminishing returns as to the size of the bat after a certain point.

I am trying to find my Physics of Baseball book (by Adair). When I find it, I'll post.

Batspeed is not power especially with wood bats since the have a very small sweet spot and is very soft if you miss the sweet spot. Proper mechanics gives you power without batspeed.

Wouldn't proper mechanics by definition mean higher bat speed? That would seem to me to be the entire purpose of improving mechanics. To create an efficient swing that is quick to the ball...greater bat speed.

Bat speed is the most important aspect of the power equation;

My Physics is dated but believe from my Martial Arts days that Power = Mass X Speed(2).

Thus bat size (piece of the Mass equation) and speed being equal (both squaring the ball the same under the same conditions), the larger player (again, Mass) will send the ball further.

But because Speed is twice as important as size, small guys that generate tremendous bat speed can hit it as far, if not farther, than many big guys with marginal bat speed.

lol

Pujols has average bat speed for MLB player. Research it, the data is out there. Please explain.

I think that the longer the bat is in the hitting zone and on the plane of the pitch, the greater the chance of hitting the ball square. Hitting the ball square consistently is the key.

Have fun with this one.

F=MA Force =Mass x Acceleration.

So, the larger the mass producing the acceleration, the stronger the force. In other words you need both. For example, if McGwire's bat speed was 100, and my 5'8 150 OF speed was 100, McGwire's would go further. (Sorry Prime, just saw your post)

2013 Dad. First welcome. Second it is much more complicated than that. There is a lot going on in the ball/bat collision. Probably one reason Puljos is so successful has more to do with his precision bat control and hitting the “sweet spot” squarely more often than others. Eithier in LA IMO is similar, but not as refined as Puljos.

Look here if you dare.... Dynamics of the baseball–bat collision

BOF, thanks for the welcome. Yes, I agree that other factors are involved. My point is, all things else equal: bat speed, bat angle, point of contact, etc., the larger individual will hit it further because of the larger mass.

Thanks BOF, I copied that link and e-mailed it to my son, we should see improvement within the next few at bats!

quote:

Originally posted by 2013 Dad:
F=MA Force =Mass x Acceleration.

So, the larger the mass producing the acceleration, the stronger the force. In other words you need both. For example, if McGwire's bat speed was 100, and my 5'8 150 OF speed was 100, McGwire's would go further. (Sorry Prime, just saw your post)

Someone help me here. In my simple mind if they both swing a bat that is 33oz @100 then they would both hit the ball the same distance. I believe the mass of what is being swung is impotant not the mass of whats swinging it. What if it was a 2 ton machine swinging a 33oz bat @ 100? How far would the ball go?

F=MA is for linear motion, Like a cue stick hitting a cue ball. But for Rotation its very different. And there is really very little mass of the bat behind the ball, especially if the bat did not pass perpendicular to the line of the ball.

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Originally posted by LAball:
F=MA is for linear motion, Like a cue stick hitting a cue ball. But for Rotation its very different. And there is really very little mass of the bat behind the ball, especially if the bat did not pass perpendicular to the line of the ball.

How does that equate to the size of the object swinging the bat all things being equal. I understand that Mcgwire probably swings harder(Faster) than 150 OF but if the 150 Of swings at the same speed the ball goes the same distance.

Floridafan if your son can understand the article then he is going to make a lot more money away from baseball than he is in baseball...

Catcher15. I will keep it simple: Bigger guys swing bigger bats.

If he could understand the discussion in this thread as it has evolved...Ditto!

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Originally posted by BOF:
Floridafan if your son can understand the article then he is going to make a lot more money away from baseball than he is in baseball...

Catcher15. I will keep it simple: Bigger guys swing bigger bats.

Not what 2013 said. I understand if he swings a bigger bat or swings the same size bat faster. But all things being equil ie bat speed, bat size, and angle of contact, the size of the batter doesn't matter. Correct?

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Originally posted by floridafan:
Which do you think is more important for hitting the long ball. Hank Aaron had the batspeed, McGwire had the power (not interested in where that power came from).

As high school players, I wouldn't be as concerned about hitting home runs as I am with avg and on base %.

It doesn't matter if you have super lightning bat speed because if you don't have proper mechanics the ball isn't going to go anywhere anyway.

I'm not saying that bat speed isn't important. I'm just saying that hitting home runs shouldn't be the end game especially if you're wanting to advance to the next level.

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Originally posted by BaseballHittingTips:

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
Which do you think is more important for hitting the long ball. Hank Aaron had the batspeed, McGwire had the power (not interested in where that power came from).

As high school players, I wouldn't be as concerned about hitting home runs as I am with avg and on base %.

I'm not saying that bat speed isn't important. I'm just saying that hitting home runs shouldn't be the end game especially if you're wanting to advance to the next level.

Actually like it or not Jeff the college coaches are looking for power. Just like velocity with pitching, like it or not you have to have it to get their attention.

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Originally posted by BOF:

quote:

Originally posted by BaseballHittingTips:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by floridafan:
Which do you think is more important for hitting the long ball. Hank Aaron had the batspeed, McGwire had the power (not interested in where that power came from).

Actually like it or not Jeff the college coaches are looking for power. Just like velocity with pitching, like it or not you have to have it to get their attention.

I'm not denying that big time schools are looking for power for many of their positions. I would too. There are plenty of DII, DIII and community colleges that aren't as concerned about power. A 20 HR high school senior will get the attention of a DI school.

I see time and time again decent high school players getting on a college roster while hitting only five home runs or less.

Now, if we're equating power with bat speed like others on this thread have implied then of course most college coaches want batters who can hit the ball hard whether it's in the gap, in the hole or wherever.

I don't know your situation in California. What are college coaches in your area looking for as far as a hitter?

In Florida, from JUCO, D-II and D-I, they want power...

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
In Florida, from JUCO, D-II and D-I, they want power...

Ditto in California.

quote:

Originally posted by catcher15:
Not what 2013 said. I understand if he swings a bigger bat or swings the same size bat faster. But all things being equil ie bat speed, bat size, and angle of contact, the size of the batter doesn't matter. Correct?

Here is another article that is a little more practical on bat weight/velocity.

Bat weight/swing speed

This is pretty interesting stuff, a bit over my head, but I see the relation of bat size and bat speed.

I have often wondered what size bat my son should use and if he was limiting himself by being comfortable with a certain bat size...

My guy is just under 6' (I guess that would make him 5'11" ) and has used a 33/30 Metal Bat through HS and College (currently a Junior). During Summer Ball he continues to swing a 33, not too sure of what the drop is on a wood bat...

He has experimented with a 34" but I do not believe he has ever gotten past the confidence factor the 33" provided...

Since I grew up in the day of Mickey Mantle and he was about the size of my guy I looked up his bat size and found a link that indicated he swung a 35" bat. Is pitching different now? I understand that fresh pitchers are brought into a game with some frequency, unlike when the Mic was in his heyday. Could he really catch up with a 95 MPH fastball with that lumber, or were pitchers more selective with their velocity back then, knowing they were expected to last an entire game?

I agree. At his size it would seem a 33’ would be appropriate. The article does not mention bat control, which is as much a factor as getting the contact performance. Mine has gone to a 34” bat and loves his wood bat at this length, but he says his composite is too top heavy. He can hit well with it, but he feels like he does not have the bat control. You have the old guys swinging big old pieces of lumber and then you have Barry Bonds who swung a 32” bat so who knows what the answer is. I guess the moral to the story is that you should swing the heaviest bat that you fell like you can control.

the topic should be more about impulse-momentum theorem. F*t= change in momentum. The greater acceleration the bat experiences times the mass of the bat will equate to a larger change in velocity of the ball from before to after the collision with the bat. The larger the end velocity and what particular trajectory the ball ends up with, will determine the power result. Thus, you need good form to square the ball up for the trajectory, and strength, not bulk, to produce the change in bat speed/acceleration.

Form and style are the key words in understanding of the high velocity swing no matter what is being swung.

When considering 'things that swing' the operative force is applied only in a motion away from center.
It is a brief explosion of force that propels the weighted end away from center but held to center with hand/forearm strength (string pressure) but with relaxed wrists.

Most batters try to carry the bat through the swing inhibiting bathead speed.

Oh my... Guys, stop being so scientific. A player should use the biggest bat that "he can handle". At this point, he hits the ball as hard as he can with the optimal bat speed that he can swing it. Maybe you guys are talking about different things here, but I am here to tell you that college coaches and professional scouts evaluate players on bat speed and power. There is a difference, but most often, they equate to the same result: the ball goes further, the more you have of each. Body type plays into this equation. A 5'5" 140 lb athlete with great bat speed just isn't going to generate as much power as a 6'3 210 lb athlete with the same bat speed, per body type. A collegiate recruiting or professional drafting evaluation is looking for bat speed that equates to "on field" power. One poster said that Albert Pujols doesn't have the best bat speed in the game. You may be correct, but he squares balls up and hits them very far to the tone of 40 hr per year. He is a large, strong man, who generates strength through the bat speed he has. Eric Davis had great bat speed, to the tone of 30-40 home runs per year. Yet, he weighed all of 180 lbs. Both apply, but when we talk about high school athletes making it to collegiate or professional baseball, it comes down to raw, projectible strength and bat speed, and body type to determine what type of "potential" power the player may have in the future. Therefore, the thread title doesn't mean we have to pick one option.... it only means that both apply somehow in player evaluation. Bat speed in the right athlete, creates power and professional potential. Bat speed in the lesser athlete creates a great high school player, college recruit, and the success stories we all hope for like Pedroia.

Little guys swinging larger bats would generate equivalent power as larger guys swinging smaller bats.

Almost every batter today uses a 32" or 33" oz bat.

Larger heavier bats would level the field for the better swingers.

I will add this practical experience to the discussion regarding size versus speed or brute strength versus power .... or whatever;

I've "sparred" thousands of rounds in a dojo setting against experienced black belts from all styles. They came in all shapes, colors, sizes and both sexes. I also have trained with other athletes who used martial arts as a cross-training method; amongst those were pro-boxers, wrestlers, and other athletes.

Without exception, the ones with the fastest hands or feet, without regard to size, HIT THE HARDEST!

Thanks illini fan and welcome!

Prime you are absolutely correct.

Power, or the velocity of the ball coming off the bat, is a function of batspeed and bat weight. The size or strength of the player has no effect on power aside from allowing the player to generate a given batspeed. A 5'7" 140 lb player will hit the ball just as hard as a 6'3" 240 lb player if they have the same bat and the same batspeed.

quote:

Without exception, the ones with the fastest hands or feet, without regard to size, HIT THE HARDEST!

I would have to disagree with that. Back when I fought (strictly amateur) I weighed around 230 and fought at 210. I spared with a lot of guys and was never hit by a guy under 180 that even hurt let alone could do damage and I never spared or fought a good fighter 250 or above that couldn't knock me out even through head gear. No matter how fast their hands were (with the exception of a few great fighters) the bigger the guy the harder he hit.

The difference between this example and baseball is the mass in the force equation in hitting a baseball comes "primarily" from the bat while in a punch the mass is supplied by the athlete.

Agree with you scotty. Albert Puljos has slower bat speed than many MLB players yet hits it a lot farther. Hmmmm how can this be? (hint he also squares the ball up better than anyone)

quote:

Originally posted by greenmachine:
Power, or the velocity of the ball coming off the bat, is a function of batspeed and bat weight. The size or strength of the player has no effect on power aside from allowing the player to generate a given batspeed. A 5'7" 140 lb player will hit the ball just as hard as a 6'3" 240 lb player if they have the same bat and the same batspeed.

I am not a physicist and have forgotten every technical physics term I have ever learned. So I will try to give my opinion the best way I can. The mass in the equation doesn't come only from the bat. The hands have a force on the bat to move it. The mass and acceleration from the force of the hands on the bat transfer (at a small percentage) to the bat increasing the mass of the bat. This applies from the arms to the hands, shoulders to the arms and so forth and so on. Which leaves with this.

A 200lb guy with a 33oz bat and 80mph bat speed will hit a ball further than a guy:

200lb 33oz bat 75mph bat speed
200lb 31oz bat 80mph bat speed
190lb 33oz bat 80mph bat spped

Mass isn't weight.