Power or Batspeed?

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Agree with you scotty. Albert Puljos has slower bat speed than many MLB players yet hits it a lot farther. Hmmmm how can this be? (hint he also squares the ball up better than anyone)

Not sure about his bat speed but his top exit speed for HRs in 2010 was 113.6 mph, which ranks 50th.

Average exit speed in 2010 MLB was 103.3, Pujols was 104.9 mph.

Here is the article on Puljos. Point is there is a lot more to hitting HR's than pure bat speed. I do agree however that bat speed is a primary contributor.

http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/7535.aspx

Maybe I didn't explain myself in the best way that I could have the first time around, but see if this makes sense as it goes along with my first argument. A larger framed kid, generally, has longer levers. If you want to be scientific, think of it this way... if you take a long 2 x 4, use it as a lever, and you exert a certain amount of energy, it lifts more weight than a short 2 x 4 with the same or even more energy exerted, depending on difference in length between the short and long 2 x 4. Bottom line is, LONGER levered (generally bigger players) with the same bat speed as smaller players (shorter levered players) will hit the ball further given the same hitting mechanics. It's a matter of extension. Also, generally due to strength and extension within a given bat speed, the longer athlete HAS THE OPPORTUNITY to hit the ball further and more consistently, with power, than your shorter levered athlete. As long as the longer levered player can be short to the ball and maintain the barrell within the strike zone through contact and beyond (extension) he will hit the ball further and with more consistent power.

If you define POWER as how far a player can hit a ball, then power is determined by trajectory, spin, and exit speed of the ball. The first two are largely a product of "squaring up the ball." The third has to do with the mass of the bat and the batspeed generated by the swing, not the hitter's weight or length of levers.

The ball has no contact with anything besides the bat...there is no force exerted by the body directly to the ball, all force is applied to the bat, then the barrel of the bat hits the ball with a certain mass and velocity. So all that matters in the collision are the characteristics of the bat, not the player swinging it.

The ball doesn't "know" how big the batter is or how long his levers are or how strong he is...all it "knows" (all that affects it) is the momentum of the bat, which is a function of the bat's mass (which can be measured as weight) and the velocity of that mass (batspeed). Granted, it gets kinda messy with the rotational aspects of a swing and I don't know what the right measure of velocity or mass would be (is mass the whole bat? just the barrel? is velocity rotational velocity? linear velocity of the point that contacts the ball? IDK!), but the player's characteristics have no effect if a certain bat and batspeed are given.

A Player's mass, lever length, and strength all help with power because they allow the batter to swing a heavier bat faster, but they do not play a role once bat mass and batspeed are determined.

greenmachine,

then why dont major league players, swing a 42 oz bat? why does easton only make a -3? you are missing the point. maybe your scientifics are correct, but you admit yourself that player mass, lever length, and strength all help with power, but the don't make 34" 42 oz bats. All aluminum bat college players and most professional players use a -3 or -2 bat. the topic was bat speed or power. the argument started that same bat speed in smaller or larger players equated to the same amount of power. if this were true, there would be a lot more 5'7" 210 pound powerful, strong players in the big leagues. but it's not true. big leaguers are built of long levers, fast twitch bat speed, and power or power potential. you say that mass, lever length, and strength all help with power because they allow a player to swing a heavier bat faster, but bats top out on weight. same bat, two different players, same bat speed and the longer lever player has more power on the same stricken ball. pedroia can use the same bat as jason werth, have the same bat speed and werth has more power.

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then why dont major league players, swing a 42 oz bat?

Nobody swings bats that heavy because there is a tradeoff between bat weight and batspeed... they can't generate the same batspeed with that heavy of a bat...there is a "sweet spot" in bat weight--an optimal weight that is different for every player that allows them to generate the most power. For example, Jose Canseco recently tweeted that he uses a 36 inch, 35oz bat. With his strength, he can still generate good batspeed and handle that bat well. If I tried to use that bat, I doubt I could generate the same batspeed as he can because I'm not as strong as he is.

I've also heard many players say they can't control a heavy bat as well as a lighter one. They feel like they can't square up the pitch as consistently with a heavier bat because more weight is harder to keep on plane and harder to direct to contact point.

quote:

the argument started that same bat speed in smaller or larger players equated to the same amount of power. if this were true, there would be a lot more 5'7" 210 pound powerful, strong players in the big leagues. but it's not true. big leaguers are built of long levers, fast twitch bat speed, and power or power potential.

The fact that there are no 5'7" 210 powerful, strong players in the bigs does not refute my argument. These players would not be able to generate the same amount of batspeed for a given bat weight as taller players with longer levers and greater strength. Longer levers=More Batspeed. Lower batspeed of the 5'7 player would generate less power.

quote:

you say that mass, lever length, and strength all help with power because they allow a player to swing a heavier bat faster, but bats top out on weight. same bat, two different players, same bat speed and the longer lever player has more power on the same stricken ball. pedroia can use the same bat as jason werth, have the same bat speed and werth has more power.

I don't know how you can back up that last statement, it is pure assumption.

Bats may top out on weight, but there is no limit to batspeed. Let's take two players, Scott and Dustin, Scott is 6'0" 185lb., Dustin is 5'9" 180 lb. For the sake of argument, assume their swings are identical, and they square up the same amount of balls. Let's say that we see in the games that Scott hits more doubles, more home runs, and slugs 80 points higher. In other words, Scott has more power. All I'm saying is that one of the following has to be true:
A) Scott and Dustin swing the same bat, but Scott swings it faster.
B) Dustin and Scott have the same batspeed, but Scott's bat is heavier.
C) Scott has a heavier bat than Dustin, and he also swings it faster.

quote:

Originally posted by greenmachine:
The third has to do with the mass of the bat and the batspeed generated by the swing, not the hitter's weight or length of levers.

Agreed but the hitter's "mass" and length of levers can effect the mass of the bat. Mass increases when energy is applied.

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The ball has no contact with anything besides the bat...there is no force exerted by the body directly to the ball,

Agreed but the key word is directly. The force from the body to the bat doesn't just disappear.

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all force is applied to the bat, then the barrel of the bat hits the ball with a certain mass and velocity. So all that matters in the collision are the characteristics of the bat, not the player swinging it.[QUOTE]

Also correct but the player can effect the mass of the bat.

[QUOTE]Granted, it gets kinda messy with the rotational aspects of a swing and I don't know what the right measure of velocity or mass would be (is mass the whole bat?

The way I understand it, the rotational aspect is what effects the mass of the bat.

quote:

just the barrel?

Just the contact point although all the mass of the bat and the player would impact the mass at the contact point.

I wish I was educated enough to usefully explain my thoughts but alas I am not. None the less it is a fun discussion. I think the problem most people have in this (not saying you it could be me) is the understanding of mass. Heck physicist still argue about it.

The way I understand it though the mass changes. It can increase with energy applied. That energy comes from the rotation of the bat and the force on the bat form the hitter. The further the point of contact is from the axis point of the rotation the more mass it will have. Thus the further away from the body the more mass it will have. However with the arms fully extended less force is being applied by the hitter so less energy is contributing to the mass of the impact point. This is the reason for staying connected.

Anyway all this is just my opinion based on the limited study I have done in physics and I could be completely off but its fun to think about.

Something to think about heck it will actually cause more confusion though.

Have you ever seen the 8 foot golf club demonstration. They take an 8 foot golf club and a regular driver. Both have the same weight and are swung at the same speed but the longer club hits the ball much further. I think is was done in an infomercial to sell clubs with longer shafts. Anyway the point was to show that although the speed was the same and the weight was the same the mass of the club head was greater on the longer club and thus hit the ball further.

OK here is more information than you probably wanted on ball/bat collisions. It is pretty obvious that a heavier is better, however the physics are all based on ball contact at the COG. A lighter bat allows for more bat control to allow for more COG hits. In theory the ball with travel the same distance if a 150lb player is swinging the same bat at the same bats peed as a 200lb player, but this of course is just theory. Bigger guys, in general, can swing bigger bats faster so guess what... they usually hit the ball farther. Like everything in life there are exceptions.

http://paws.kettering.edu/~dru.../bats-new/batw8.html

Great info.. thanks for looking that up BOF

Longer level arm may give you faster bat speed, but you are less accurate. A big batter (fat or muscle) can put more weight behind the bat