Pre-rant Questions.....

I'm already looking forward to the rant.

 

As far as consolation games, I've never known of a team not stick around for those games, as I guess usually coaches would look at them as a chance to play, and if older for kids to be seen.  Maybe college coaches will not stick around to watch, but I dont know.  I would count the game as a win/loss, but I wouldnt use them to calculate finishing position.  

 

And I would think you quit blowing smoke up the players butts about the time they turn 9.  Keep it realistic and let them know where they stand and what they have to to.

Out of curiosity what age are we talking?  But in general I am with both comments.  Not a big believer in 'coming down' on kids thats counter productive.   But it is just as counter productive to fool them into believing they are just fine when they are not.

Referring to HS age kids.  Summer program.

A consolation game is part of a tournament. If a team doesn't show up, that's on them. Play all the games you can. Don't leave anything on the table. 

 

 

It is suprising in our area how many DON'T stick around for a consolation game. That bein said I understand a bit ifteam / coach knows they are out except consolation game and they and parents have to pay another nights hotel just to play a game. What I have found last couple of years is tournament sends out an email to coaches asking if they are staying or leaving so they can match up those that are staying. One of my huge frustrations used to be when we would show up for a consolation game after sticking around an extra day and the other team no showed. Seems like the tournament directors have figured that out by asking now.

 

As far as record, yep I would count it, as far as place in tournament- who cares. let them count it or not makes me no difference. Not like anyone is looking up what place a team that is in a consolation game is.

 

As far as what I tell the kids, they are smart enough to know that it doesn't matter froma "place" point of view". I simply tell them: We play all our games and we play to win. Someday you won't get that opportunity so we play all of them when we are given that oppotunity.   

Two other factors I've seen at the high school level. 1) Teams that come to showcase their kids, and only have recruiters coming for the games that were scheduled ahead of time. 2) Teams who come knowing they don't have enough pitching for a play-off run.

Chef, same experience here over the past two summers.  So, here is my piddly little rant:

 

The Asst HS coach, who I use to be partner with in the summer program, is a great rah rah, at-a-boy type coach.  Has shown a few red flags already, with the main one now being, the kids can't play for any other summer team without his permission.  My kid missed that last few games of summer due to a leg injury and is sitting out the fall to rehab.  Son has gone out to a few fall practices to observe and stay apart of the team while he is injured.  This team is by far is under talented when it comes to entering certain tourny's, but understand they enter them for the experience.  To show poorly in every pool game, in the tourny's they've entered, does not do much for the kids confidence, understandably.  But, for the Coach to come back form a recent tourny and then brag about finishing in a certain position, post it on their face book page and pump the kids up like they achieved a great milestone, IMO, does more harm than good.  Most of these kids don't understand how hard it is to go on to the next level, and to fill their heads with false accomplishments is, well, just wrong.

 

My son, who is not paying in the Fall, rehabbing a leg injury, questioned a few of his teammates about their finishing position, which caused some heated discussion about which games count and which ones don't when claiming a position.  My explanation to my son was that it doesn't matter if you don't make it out of pool play.  Consolation games are just that, consolation games.  Most tournaments don't post finishing positions, except for the top 3, and the final rounds of 16 and fewer.  I have never seen a large tourny post finishers 30+.  If you don't finish in the top 10, it just means that you need to examine your weak areas. practice more and work a little harder.

 

His teammates did not like the fact that he looked up the definition of consolation and showed it to them...hehe.

 

I am not sure why a coach would do this. Everyone that has been on the tourny circuit laughs at this.  Most of these kids on this team have not played in the big exposure tourny's, some of the younger more talented kids have.  I am pretty sure it is just me with a different coaching philosophy, but to me it seems that kids are being pumped up with the old "everyone gets a trophy" hot air mentality only to get the wind knocked out of them later when the reality of recruiting comes around!

 

Sorry, rant over.....for now!

One thing I think you need to do though is separate the 'team' from the individual.  Yes it might be a little silly to claim accomplishments from what in reality may have been a poor performance.   But is it relevant to any one individuals future on that team.  I say no.  If a coach wants to 'inflate' his team a little so be it.  As long as privately he lets each of his players clearly know where they stand from a future perspective.  If he is telling a kid who throws 72mph that e everything will be fine and he is right on track for a college career then that is wrong.

That's the problem.  He is promoting that all is good and they are doing great.  It would have served a much better purpose to let them know that held their own without blowing the smoke, because, in fact, one of the kids my son had the conversation with sits in the low 70's as a JR.  IMO, I'd rather my kid(s) understand exactly where they stand at all times, in comparison, to the other kids competing for scholarships and roster spots.  So they don't come on a site like this their SR yr wondering why they aren't getting looks or getting contacted by coaches.  They need to be prepared for real world experiences, not the "rah rah, all is good", "we'll be fine" talk.  Once the kids buy in to that type of mentality, it's hard to unravel that and rebuild.

Posting conceded wins as part of your overall record is garbage, but legitimate consolation games that are played definitely should enter the equation as long as a write-up accompanies the report (detailing how the wins were achieved, a match by match result report, etc).

 

 

I agree have to let the kids know where they are and where they have to get to.  I see a lot of hs games won by kids throwing in the 70's But that doesn't mean they are any kind of prospect.  In fact it is hard to be a prospect if you are not in the 80's at the very least by your sophomore season.

I think it lies somewhere in between.

 

If what you say is true, the coach is not doing the players any good by blowing smoke.  Its good to pump kids up, but on the same token, you cant over sell them.

 

On the other side, no matter how much smoke the coach is blowing, is it really your sons place to sit on the bench and down play the teams play and accomplishments?  When these kids start talking about their 11th place finish or whatever, I'm sure they are getting heated when the kid not playing tells them it means nothing.  I'd be upset too.  Nothing personal, I just think it would be best for him to keep the peace and just smile it away.  

If you're not first, you're last. 

 

My favorite is "2nd place is the first loser."

 I agree and would have a problem if my kid was sitting on the bench and said something to that fact.  I would be the first to have an issue with that.  I'd like to think that my son has been taught to respect the game better than that, but hey, kids will be kids.  My son is not on the fall travel ball squad.  He was only responding those who boasted in his face at school, and if it was a top 20 finish it would be huge accomplishment for them and praise would be well deserved.

If these kids are high school age and entering tourneys where they end up in consolation games, I would imagine that it doesn't matter what the coach tells them. They are old enough to see the competition and understand where their individual talent lies. If you've got a jr. seeing 87mph pitching and he's only throwing 70's and losing, surely he's old enough to be able to self-evaluate that.

Now, where I see a real disservice is high school teams that play weak schedules in a weak conference, occasionally go out and play AA-level tournaments and are mislead by coaches that they're playing top teams and doing well. Not exposing them to higher levels and claiming that they've accomplished something can easily mislead a kid into thinking he's got something when he doesn't.

With so many measurables you would think kids and parents could self evaluate right?  Think again.  Unfortunately for some reason it st Ill doesn't sink in.  Then it becomes the system that is broke not their son.  College and even pro scouts should pay attention to their son's pinpoint greg maddux like control or his vicious yacker and not the fact that his fastball can't break glass.  They should look at how johnny can slap the bouncer down the 3rd baseline and get on base cause the average hs third baseman has a difficult time charging barehanding and throwing on the move.  And ignore that johnny can't hit a 90mph fastball out of the infield.  Amazing how dilusional parents and players alike can be.

Root, yes these kids are HS age.  Unfortunately they have become so enamored with the rah-rah smoke of this coach, that it they can't see the forest through the trees.  The number one pitcher, a SR(in the coaches eyes for the upcoming spring season) may hit the mid 70's on a good day, but he throws strikes. His dad is the president of the summer club and absolutely convinced he will play at the next level.  So, the parents are just as bad.  It is the typical set up with two teams.  The younger team pays the same, plays fewer games and tournaments(and those are much less quality) and gets basically no attention.  I have tried to explain to a few parents, that are my friends, is that they are just funding the older team, but it falls on deaf ears.

 

I have resided to sitting quietly in the shadows and simply work on developing righthook to be the best he can be.  It just befuddles (my big word for the week) me, how so many people suffer from perceptional blindness. 

LMAO....at the latest one...

 

What kind of tournament organization creates a separate division, for what is basically a consolation bracket, and then "crowns" the winner of that division a "Champion" ????

We are talking high school age kids, presumably all of which are playing or at least trying to play high school ball.   Who does that to these kids?  Then the same Coach, as original rant was about, blasts it all over the team facebook page claiming a Championship and how proud he is of them.....if you didn't know  what tourny or bothered checking into it you would honestly think they won a "National" championship.

 

I just don't get it with some people!

There is a large tournament in my neck of the woods that does that.  After pool play, the top 16 teams play in the Gold bracket.  The rest play in the silver bracket.  There are two "champions."  I guess if mommy and daddy are paying to get little Johnny into the tournament, they want him to be a champion. 

I've seen a Dallas tournament where there is Platinum, Gold, Silver, Copper...maybe 4 or 5 different divisions after pool play.

What does it hurt to have extra divisions after pool play and then crown a champion?  It's not that different than a Consolation Champion.  I understand that there are some delusional parents out there, but having these extra divisions so that the kids can play against others in their same skill level, is not a problem IMHO.

I don't think anyone has an issue with the extra games.  It's the awarding of a 'championship' that irks some people.  Personally it doesn't really get under my skin but I must concur with the majority that it is silly and misleading.  Many tournaments just put you in extra game to reach the minimum guarantee and then send you home with nothing.  I think this is the way to go.  I once coached a very bad youth basketball team.  We would lose our first game then go to the consolation bracket.  Lose our second game with a little closer score then go to that third game to meet the 3 game guarantee.  Often we would actually win this one.  Afterwards many clueless parents would say well at least we kept getting better as we went along.  I just can't believe they didn't grasp the simple concept that we kept playing worse and worse teams.  Where the problem lies is kids then are fooled into believing they are not that bad and then they do not have a realistic outlook of what They are and how far they have to go.  I am not saying we should demean our kids.  But in the long run you are doing them a diservice by making them artificially feel good also.

Well, IMO, it promotes the fact that it's okay or acceptable to perform poorly if you can still get a trophy.  

 

As a Coach(not you personally), if you're stating that it's okay to be the losers bracket "Champion", then it tells me that you are willing to settle for less and are content with poor performances and losing.  That is not a Coach or program that I want my kid playing for.

First of all, I have never had to have my son play on a terrible tournament team, and second of all, he's pretty good.  My point is that there are teams that just aren't very talented.  In a tournament that has a lot of teams, and that cost these teams lots of money, why not have another grouping after the POD Games?  What does it hurt?  Saying that that's not the type of coach you would want, tells me a couple of things:

 

1.  Your son is probably pretty talented.

2.  Has probably played on some good tournament teams.

 

Just because the kids aren't as talented, or they play on an inferior team, doesn't mean they shouldn't get value for their tournament appearance.  Again, what does it hurt to have differing pools after the POD Play, and then let the winners of each pool be a champion?  I don't think it matters one bit, and I think many are being a bit too "elitist" and not seeing the other side of the coin.

I have absolutely no problem with the teams that get knocked out of pool play playing as many games as they can afterward.  I have been associated with teams that have offered to stick around and play to make sure traveling teams got their monies worth as far as games played go.

 

As for this case, which is the younger team than in the original post, there weer only 12 teams total.  I have not met to many coaches, or programs, that enter a tourny with the goal of winning the losers bracket.  I know there are teams that enter that are less talented and do it for the experience, no problem with that either, but why brag about wining the consolation bracket?

 

My oldest was involved with a lot of losing teams and teams that always got knocked out early and not once did any one of those players go home feeling good or bragging about their consolation wins.  

 

My middle one, who is associated with this program, but is out injured, has only played on one previous summer team, and they were bad.  He is not super talented, but holds his own on the mound.

 

My point is, why prop a kids(s) up to be something they are not.  I am not saying bash them or demean them in any way, I am sure there were many positives that come out of the tourny, but to go in the opposite direction and call them "Champions" accomplishes nothing....that goes hand in hand with the little league mentality of 'everyone is a winner and gets a 'everyone gets atrophy'. To me it's false advertisement and does more harm than good in the long run, again just my opinion.

 

I like to consider myself more of a realist.

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I don't think it matters one bit that these folks are taking pride in winning whatever additional/consolation (whatever you want to call it) bracket that is added to a tournament.  What is it really hurting?  If these teams are that bad, don't you think the kids will figure it out sooner or later??  Let them enjoy it now, because apparently there won't be many more chances for winning tourneys in the future.  I think there are for more egregious wrongs in the world than whether or not someone is bragging about winning a consolation bracket.

Again this is not the biggest issue in the world to me but it might be becoming an issue lol.  Here's the thing.  Maybe some of us are being 'elitist' but how many travel teams have you seen with the word elite attached to them?  A lot.  The point is these tournament teams are supposed to be elite!!  And unfortunately that has been watered down over the years and has subsequently lead to these pseudo championships.  And its not doing anybody any good.  If kids aren't as good but they still want to play baseball that's just fine.  Personally I think they should do it in rec ball but I guess everyone has a right to go to a tournament.  But then they shouldn't be crowned a 'champion'.  Put yourself in the position of the really good kid who is trying to challenge himself to be great and then he has to play lower level competition even though he paid money (parents paid) to be on an 'elite' team and play 'elite' competition.   I think we as Americans keep appealing to the lower level students, athletes, and just people in general.  But who is willing to champion the cause of the advanced or more talented?  And if you do stand up for that you get labelled an elitist!  Money drives the world though and as long as you are willing to pay you can play.  So while we have to deal with these teams watering down the level of competition is it too much just to ask they are not labelled a champion thus encouraging them to enter more tournaments.  I realize this is a little different take than lefty started with but thats why I kind of have a problem with it.

There is a tournament in our area that last couple years have had 80 teams in the tournament. POD play 4 games and  POD winners are gold, then 2nd silver, everone else consolation game. 2 years ago son's team got 2nd in pool, then went on to win the silver. boys were laughing that they got 17th place. In all actuality i like how they set it up as long as everyone doesn't get caught up in winning silver as a huge accomplisment (but maybe for some teams it would be). got to play 8 games that tournament. well worth the money.

And by the way nit has been my experience that kids and their parents never figure it out.  They just lay blame on the rest of the team.

I can put myself in the position of having a pretty good ball player of a son, who has played in many great tournaments.  I don't lose one ounce of sleep over lesser teams in the tournament getting called a champion.  Doesn't bother me one bit...

Okay, who cares whether or not a team calls themselves a champion for winning a consolation bracket. In my eyes no harm no foul! My son plays travel not necessarily to win tournaments, but to play and continue to develop. You can take something away from every game no matter if it's an inferior team or a superior team. It's up to the player to figure that out. The ones that think it's a waste of time to play lower level teams could be themselves considered a lower level team buy even better teams LOL. 

I think agreeing to disagree is the best course for this one.  At least for me.  I'm out!

Riddle me this batman -- If you have to call yourself "elite," are you? 

 

I don't really have an issue with breaking a large tournament up into A, B, C, brackets.  And winning the B or C bracket is an alright accomplishment based on your existing skill level.  Have fun, enjoy the game and party afterwards.  Just don't get caught up in promoting the fact that you "won" a consolation bracket -- that is where the silliness comes in. 

I think you covered it better than any of us on this thread...

Braket levels aren't always just about superior or inferior teams. A lot of the time it's about pitching depth. My sons team won top, middle, and bottom brackets last year. We had three really good pitchers and then a bunch of average to bad ones. They went about .400 in pool play games because the coaches let anybody and everybody pitch in those. They never lost a game in elimination games. Basically if they drew two strong teams and went 0-2 in pool play the were in the bronze bracket and won it. If they drew two weak teams and went 2-0 and in the gold bracket they won it. The coach could have just pitched the studs during pool play and been in the top bracket in every tournament but he believed pool games were for development then when the bracket started it was time to compete.

Point is the bracket they were in was not a reflection of their ability. One tournament everyone was joking the top 4 teams in the tournament were all in the silver bracket. Even the tournament organizers recognized it and put the top umpire crew with that bracket.

Pitching depth is part of being a "superior" or "inferior" team. The superior teams are deep in pitching. The not so superior teams are not deep in pitching. Without the pitching depth, you're just another pretty good TEAM. Personally, I don't think it's all that big of an accomplishment to win the losers bracket. But who cares if a team brags about it?  How does it hurt your team? It's all about ego at that point. Let them brag, then beat them when you play them.

If you said superior "tournament" team I agree 100% but 3 studs and usable pitchers is pretty good for anything but 5 to 6 games in two days. Another reason I hate weekend tournaments lol.