Protecting their Arms

Touchy subject that comes up every year at this time. Unfortunatley arms do get abused out there but hopefully awareness is growing and there is less of it.

Once tracked a 9 year old that threw 122 in 50 degrees. After the game I told the young man that I hoped he'd make it through the spring at 10. He didn't and needed elbow surgery.

It never ceases to amaze me when a win or a $5 trophy is worth more than the health of a player.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Touchy subject that comes up every year at this time. Unfortunatley arms do get abused out there but hopefully awareness is growing and there is less of it.

Once tracked a 9 year old that threw 122 in 50 degrees. After the game I told the young man that I hoped he'd make it through the spring at 10. He didn't and needed elbow surgery.

Yes it is a touchy subject but no doubt in my mind who should be responsible for their "child" at that age and it is DAD! Shame on him for letting it happen. I would have had that Coach by the throat before his pitch count neared that. Growth plate damage is permanent, surgery doesn't cure it.

That's the truly scary and sad part. Dad was a coach and I almost started a fight with my comment. It was during the handshakes at the end of the game and Dad overheard me and made a bit of a fuss about me worrying about my team. I never made another comment about stufflike that anywhere near the field again.

Since it's fall ball this one is a no brainer. Doesn't matter whether it's Babe Ruth or elite travel ball. Either way the games are meaningless. Dad has to step in. There needs to be at least one adult involved in the decision making. If the coach doesn't qualify Dad has to step in.

Of course my opinion is that fall baseball is generally a bad idea anyway.

Where it gets more difficult is when this happens with the HS team.

quote:

Where it gets more difficult is when this happens with the HS team.

I agree, that's why I made a signal with my Son only he & I know. Again last year his School Coach was all over pitch counts & rest between starts. So far the Sign has not been needed, Thankfully

quote:

Originally posted by CBMDad:

I'm curious how the rest of you handle your own Son's when they pitch. Maybe I'm over protective but My Son would never have reached 115 in Game 1.

I feel it's better to error on the side of over protecting and just letting things go too far. I battled through this issue with my son in travel ball when he was younger and I learned my lession early on. So, here's my story about this issue:

When my son was in little league he seemed to have this "rubber arm" and pitched in the mid to high 60's. We didn't have pitch count rules then and I didn't really know any better and didn't really think about it much. My son never had any problems with his throwing. Then, in travel ball at age 13, we had a double header that started very early one cold morning (cold for Calif. ) For the 1st games he started and pitched the whole game and won. The coach wanted to keep him in the line up and put him at the catcher position where he did really well and played at that position the whole second game. Stupid me for not thinking at all about the throwing he was doing as a catcher on top of pitching the game before. Afterwards, as we walked back to the parking lot, me mentioned that his arm was kind of sore. This was the first time he ever had such a problem. I told him to rest it for a few days, but when he went to the next workout the soreness returned and his arm remained sore for several weeks and it just really wasn't getting better. So, we visited a sports doctor to get an evaluation and he said that it didn't look too serious, but my son would have to rest and not do ANY throwing for 3 months. "What?!! THREE months", my son remarked. And so, that's what my son did (though he did offer to play and throw with his other arm, and I chuckled over his eagerness to play any way he could). In thinking back, I was kicking myself for not thinking at all about what was going on when he played those two games like that. But. . .lesson learned.

A year later my son got onto an elite travel team and I had a talk the the coaches about pitching and pitch count as they used him as a SS and a pitcher (sometimes a starter and sometimes a closer). I told them that I insisted that they keep his game pitch count to no more than 85 (I figured that no matter what number I set, they'd push the limit if and when they felt they had to, so that was a target number I felt safe with). For the most part, the coaches did good and seldom went over 90. But there was one game against a local rival team on cold night where my son was not having one of his better outings and his team was behind. And because it was obvious that my son was struggling with his command I watched closely as to see when the coach were going to replace him. Well, it got late into the game, we were so far behind and my son was struggling so, I didn't see the point as his pitch count rose above 90. There was no one warming in the pen so I went over to the dugout and asked what the count was (letting them know I was watching the count and expecting them to get someone else out there). Well, I was ignored for the most part and they did take him out, but not until the last inning and his count was over 110 for 6 innings. I'm one that keeps my emotions inside for the most part and I was pretty hot under the collar at this point since there was really no good reason to keep my son in a losing game and running the pitch count up so high on such a cold night. When I talked to the coach about it, he looked at me like I was some kind of idiot and said he thought my son could handle it and wanted to see if my son would work through the situation. I told him and my son that if that ever happened again, we'd need to find some other organization that takes better care of their players. I'm not sure he was really listening, but that never happened again and I think because that coach moved over to a younger team where his son was playing and my son's team got a different coach who was much better an taking care of pitchers.

As my son entered HS, I was very sensitive to how his arm might be used. He was a good two way payer and could have focused on pitcher or any other position he wanted. Fortunately, his HS team was loaded with good pitching talent and they didn't need to use him much as a pitcher and played all the time at SS. The HS coach was very good at watching out for pitch counts. But interestingly there were still pitchers that would have arm problems. So, I was happy that my son didn't have to pitch much and was used mainly for just closing. While I was happy that he wasn't so at risk for arm injury, as he went through his Senior year, college and MLB scouts were constantly asking to know when he was going to pitch as they had a LOT of interest in him for pitching. And though he didn't pitch much in his Senior year, he was drafted as a pitcher though his interest was in playing middle infield (particularly SS). So now I question my effort to protect his arm as in conversations with my son I would downplay his interest in pitching that he used to love to do. Now he loves being a position player, but now I really feel the road towards his goal of playing in MLB would have been easier as a pitcher and I could have encouraged it more if not for fear of having his arm abused.

Timely topic. My son has a cast on his right arm right now; hand to bicep, completely immobilizing his elbow.

Want know how many innings he pitched since last July? 2. One in the fall, one about two weeks ago.

My son is in middle school. A 13U player. He didn’t feel or hear a ‘pop’ during his pitching outing two weeks ago, but he definitely felt soreness that progressed to pain on the mound. He took a week off of practice, but was still feeling pain / discomfort in his elbow at periodic times during the day.

We took him to his general Dr on Tuesday, who sent us to a pediatric sports specialist on Wednesday. X-Rays confirmed Little League elbow. He’ll have the cast on for two weeks total, then more X-Rays. Doctor seems confident he can throw a baseball in 4 to 6 weeks, but will have to take 6 to 12 months off of pitching.

I’ll paraphrase what the Doctor told us: The Throwing motion focuses an enormous amount of force into the elbow. The human body does not grow in a uniform fashion. Muscles can outpace the skeletal system or vice versa; every person is different and each growth stage within an individual can be different. In a growing kid, young man, the tendon from the forearm attaches to the bone of the upper arm with cartilage. The cartilage allows this connection to migrate down with the bone as the bone grows in length. But the cartilage is the weak spot in the chain. (Once bone stops growing, the cartilage attachment transforms into bone, cementing the tendon connection. In adults, the tendon is the most likely point of failure [Tommy John surgery])

In short, the Doctor left us with the message that pitching has huge risks. Pitch counts are extremely important. But past performance is no indication of a player’s current situation. If your player or your son appears to have made any jump in velocity (through grow spurt or conditioning); proceed with extreme caution.

CABB, thanks for sharing and I hope your son has a complete recovery.

You mentioned he has thrown two innings in the last several months. May I ask how often he was throwing bullpen, and how many pitch's he considered to be a bullpen?

quote:

I’ll paraphrase what the Doctor told us: The Throwing motion focuses an enormous amount of force into the elbow. The human body does not grow in a uniform fashion. Muscles can outpace the skeletal system or vice versa; every person is different and each growth stage within an individual can be different. In a growing kid, young man, the tendon from the forearm attaches to the bone of the upper arm with cartilage. The cartilage allows this connection to migrate down with the bone as the bone grows in length. But the cartilage is the weak spot in the chain. (Once bone stops growing, the cartilage attachment transforms into bone, cementing the tendon connection. In adults, the tendon is the most likely point of failure [Tommy John surgery])

In short, the Doctor left us with the message that pitching has huge risks. Pitch counts are extremely important. But past performance is no indication of a player’s current situation. If your player or your son appears to have made any jump in velocity (through grow spurt or conditioning); proceed with extreme caution.

A great perspective, thanks

That is just absolutely horrible. When my son was 9 years old, he was clocked at 60mph. He was a pitcher and played other positions. Although we now live in Texas at that time we lived in a cold weather state. At a tournament in March when it was in the forties his pitch count was 108. That is the last time he ever seriously pitch. I spoke to the coach the next day and said that my son will not be pitching anymore, however he can play the other positions. If that is not acceptable than he would have to leave the team. The coach said that was fine with him.

He is now 18 yeard old and has maybe pitch three innnings in the last 8 years. Because he is an athlete (6.6 60 yard dash (1/16/2012) and 92mph from outfield) he was fairly seldom asked to pitch. When he was he knew to politely say he does not pitch. Nothing against pitching but my wife and I did not have the stomach to fight that battle with coaches who although probably well meaning tended to abuse young arms. I have seen kids throwing curve balls at the age of 11. I also know of many kids that have either had to have surgery and/or were shut down because of arm problems.

It worked out for my son because he will be playing college ball at the D1 level in Texas. However, I must admit if you can pitch especially throw above 90mph, the road to a college scholarship is a lot easier. Pitching is not for everybody but if you are a lefty, a hard throwing righty or your son is not a toolsy type of guy it is a great path to take. I sometimes envy the attention that a good pitcher gets but I feel blessed that my son was able to develop other skills so that he did not have to pitch. Plus, at the next level if they make him a pitcher well at least his arm won't be worn down and hopefully they will now how to take care of his arm. Although, I have heard of college coaches who also abuse pitchers' arms.

My advice to parents is that you have to protect your son because if you don't nobody will.

2016: Good question. In all honesty, I’m not sure of the precise number of bullpen sessions or how many pitches he would have thrown in a session. Prior to getting hurt, he’d been to 5 of the 6 team practices since the first of the year. I don’t know how often the pitching coach peels players off for a bullpen session. I was at the first 2 practices and I know no kids pitched a bullpen. So a maximum of 3 bullpen sessions, but I think the pitching coach only comes to one practice a week, so maybe 2 bullpen sessions?

Your point is excellent: An elbow doesn’t differentiate a bullpen session from in-game pitching. It all counts as usage.

Pitching places a lot of stress on the elbow. It also places a large amount of stress on the shoulder. I would guess most pitchers will have some sort of arm pain at some point in time especially if they pitch for very long at all.

The thing that a lot of people do wrong is they focus on the shoulder or the elbow. They don't work on both and they also do not work on mobility of their lower body.

It all works as one big machine and the elbow often takes the brunt of the force...

What is a good pitch count to stay under in tournament play? What about pitching 50 pitches in a game on Saturday and 50 pitches in a game on Sunday?
I've told my son that at the slightest indication of discomfort to notify the coach whether mid inning or after the inning so he can be pulled.
So far his coach is understanding and is probably just as conservative with pitch count.

This is a topic where the knowledge has come a loooong way in the last decade. Probably, when LLI made the decision to forsake pitch limitations by innings and replace them with pitch counts, it did more to enlighten more people than anything else. There’s been a lot of discussion about the number of pitches, but there’s been little if any doubt that there needs to be some limit on pitches.

But rather than pure pitch counts being the guide now-a-days, people have come to understand that there are other factors that can and do have an effect. How much rest between appearances is something that must be considered. FI, throwing 100 pitches after 5 days rest is far different than on only 2 days rest.

Stress is another factor. FI, a pitcher throwing 105 pitches, 15 each inning for 7 innings is much different than 105 over 3 or 4 innings. Also, 105 pitches with 70 of them coming with runners on, is a lot different than 105 with only 30 of them coming with runners on.

Then too there’s the “how prepared is the pitcher” effect. 100 pitches in early Feb for a pitcher who hasn’t thrown all winter, is a lot different than 100 in the middle of Aug in 90 degree weather, after the pitchers has been working for 6 months.

I like to see the discussion because it spreads the knowledge.

This is a parent's job and one that should be approached with the attitude of better safe than sorry. There is no game, no team, no tournament, worth ruining a young mans arm. There are times when a player cannot appreciate that and the parent must intervene. It may not be a popular decision but it is necessary. I suggest that parents of pitchers think through how they will handle a situation where a pitcher needs to come out before it happens. If it takes 20 minutes to decide what to do and how to do it - that may be too long.

I like the idea of having a sign - wish we had arranged one before our D-Day arrived.

If he pitches on Saturday he should not pitch AT ALL on Sunday.

quote:

Originally posted by tradosaurus:
What is a good pitch count to stay under in tournament play? What about pitching 50 pitches in a game on Saturday and 50 pitches in a game on Sunday?
I've told my son that at the slightest indication of discomfort to notify the coach whether mid inning or after the inning so he can be pulled.
So far his coach is understanding and is probably just as conservative with pitch count.

When I was a 10U travel assistant I got in arguments with the head coach regarding overuse. As someone who wasn't good as a kid he saw his entry into "the club" by winning kiddie ball tournaments.

I've rarely had to worry about my son. Outside school I was always his coach until showcase ball. Other than 12yo in LL during the regular season he's always been a closer. In middle school my son threw over 100 consecutive BP pitches in cold weather. I sent the asmi.org link to the AD who is a friend of mine.

He did tick off his high school coach refusing the ball in a 20 degree wind chill coming off his position in mid inning with no warm up even between innings. Had I been the coach I would have pulled him from the game on the first trip to the mound, let him warm up, then sub him back in as the relief pitcher.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Pitching places a lot of stress on the elbow. It also places a large amount of stress on the shoulder. I would guess most pitchers will have some sort of arm pain at some point in time especially if they pitch for very long at all.

The thing that a lot of people do wrong is they focus on the shoulder or the elbow. They don't work on both and they also do not work on mobility of their lower body.

It all works as one big machine and the elbow often takes the brunt of the force...

Bulldog is spot on. There is a huge risk, but there are huge rewards. Sooner or later ALL pitchers will have an issue, it may be a shoulder, it may be an elbow, it maybe a hip, a knee, it may be a back. When you watch a ML game in September/October you may not realize that most pitchers often are suffering from some type of ailment. Keep in mind that ML starters are expected to pitch 225-250 innings per season and getting paid well to do it, your youth pitchers are NOT. When something hurts never take anything for granted, seek medical advice even if it is minor.

For information, shoulder injuries and elbow injuries are not uncommon for position players. Having an injury as a position guy can set you back just as much as an injury to a pitcher can.

I am not sure why this is a touchy subject. Common sense should be the guideline. Youth players should not restrict themselves to pitching alone, but going from the mound to ss, or behind the dish after their outing (or the next day) makes no sense to me.

I am frankly surprised that in this day and age with guidelines, that what the OP posted actually still takes place (overuse) or that parents have no clue what a pitcher should or should not do (pitch 50 pitches one day and 50 the next).

Educate yourself, don't rely on the youth coaches to know all of the answers, use the internet, talk to your pediatrician, talk to a trainer. Don't just worry about your son but the other players as well, don't be afraid to speak up or ask questions. Be proactive.

IMO, the is NO excuse for anyone that has a child that plays any type of sport to not know the pros and cons of beginning too early or doing too much in that particular sport.

All of your kids have dreams, if you want to help them to be able to achieve them, than you should think twice about how important it really ISN'T to pitch consecutive games in torunaments, to pitch without proper warmup, to pitch more pitches than most ML pitchers throw in a game, to go from ss to pitcher, or from pitcher to catcher, or how important is it really to attend multiple showcases, camps, tournaments day after day, week after week and play all year long.

Enough with about hearing about how much your sons LOVE the game, they all do, be a parent and set guidelines.

I have become crazy about youth pitchers doing too much, I even advocate waiting longer to have young pitchers to take the mound.

For those that don't know, I have a pitcher who was drafted and yet to reach his goal (play on the ML field) all due to 3 operations and being unable to remain healthy enough in all but one season to get to where he really wants to be. We thought that we did everything right, looking back maybe we didn't, regardless, as Bulldog has suggested pitchers will have injuries, what you can control as a parent will help in the severity, or hold off major stuff until they reach that certain level where they have proven themselves healthy, whether that be for HS, college or beyond.

I thank those that come forward and not afraid to speak up about their players injuries, the goal is to educate and although we understand that everyone is different, different curcumstances it's important to understand that your main role as a parent should be to try to prevent injuries. #1 priority IMO.


I have gotten myself into trouble for being a bit fanatical about overuse in pitching. I think that most here that know me understand why.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
This is a topic where the knowledge has come a loooong way in the last decade. Probably, when LLI made the decision to forsake pitch limitations by innings and replace them with pitch counts, it did more to enlighten more people than anything else. There’s been a lot of discussion about the number of pitches, but there’s been little if any doubt that there needs to be some limit on pitches.

But rather than pure pitch counts being the guide now-a-days, people have come to understand that there are other factors that can and do have an effect. How much rest between appearances is something that must be considered. FI, throwing 100 pitches after 5 days rest is far different than on only 2 days rest.

Stress is another factor. FI, a pitcher throwing 105 pitches, 15 each inning for 7 innings is much different than 105 over 3 or 4 innings. Also, 105 pitches with 70 of them coming with runners on, is a lot different than 105 with only 30 of them coming with runners on.

Then too there’s the “how prepared is the pitcher” effect. 100 pitches in early Feb for a pitcher who hasn’t thrown all winter, is a lot different than 100 in the middle of Aug in 90 degree weather, after the pitchers has been working for 6 months.

I like to see the discussion because it spreads the knowledge.

Good points. Most of this stuff is common sense, I am just not too sure how many (not necessarily here) really have that!

My understanding from a previous topic is that we are to trust our high school coaches implicitly because we as parents just aren't qualified to second guess a coach. Because all high school coaches by the fact of their position have a high degree of baseball knowledge.

Of course this is tongue in cheek and which is why we as parents must not shy away from researching the best baseball program before sending our kid to high school.

quote:

Originally posted by tradosaurus:
My understanding from a previous topic is that we are to trust our high school coaches implicitly because we as parents just aren't qualified to second guess a coach. Because all high school coaches by the fact of their position have a high degree of baseball knowledge.

Of course this is tongue in cheek and which is why we as parents must not shy away from researching the best baseball program before sending our kid to high school.

I have been here for a very long time and I have never advocated trusting any coach as far as one's health was concerned.
I do advocate respecting the position, but not being afraid to speak up if there is a concern, which doesn't imply telling the coach how to manage his team.

There's a difference.

quote:

Originally posted by tradosaurus:
What is a good pitch count to stay under in tournament play? What about pitching 50 pitches in a game on Saturday and 50 pitches in a game on Sunday?

You talk a good game like you know what's going on, the above question leads me to beleive that you have no clue.

If your son's coach ever pitched your son back to back days, you definetely have to deal with this.
He may be a great coach but even the best make mistakes and this is a VERY BIG one.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by tradosaurus:
My understanding from a previous topic is that we are to trust our high school coaches implicitly because we as parents just aren't qualified to second guess a coach. Because all high school coaches by the fact of their position have a high degree of baseball knowledge.

Of course this is tongue in cheek and which is why we as parents must not shy away from researching the best baseball program before sending our kid to high school.

I have been here for a very long time and I have never advocated trusting any coach as far as one's health was concerned.
I do advocate respecting the position, but not being afraid to speak up if there is a concern, which doesn't imply telling the coach how to manage his team.

There's a difference.

Telling a coach how many pitches your kid can throw is managing his team. Which I agree with in this case.

I don't see the difference in telling a coach how many pitches your kid can throw or telling a coach not to screw with your kids batting or pitching mechanics when it is painfully obvious the coach is clueless. I'm not saying all baseball coaches are clueless just that I've seen a weightlifting coach made a baseball coach because there was no one available at the moment.

Trad - go back and read the OP. You will see it had nothing to do with HS coaching but a lot to do with excessive pitching in tournament play on a travel team. Separate issue from the other thread... try not to confuse the two threads.

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Trad - go back and read the OP. You will see it had nothing to do with HS coaching but a lot to do with excessive pitching in tournament play on a travel team. Separate issue from the other thread... try not to confuse the two threads.

I disagree, this has to do with any coach on any level that abuses any pitchers arm. Just because a player moves up levels, doesn't mean he should be over used. The only difference should be that the pitcher needs to learn to speak up for himself, if mom and dad have made him understand what is acceptable and what is not. Some folks don't do that (educate their players), and they should. JMO.

Again, it's best to learn and understand the guidelines for each age, and he obviously has no clue, you don't put a pitcher out there 2 days in a row.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Trad - go back and read the OP. You will see it had nothing to do with HS coaching but a lot to do with excessive pitching in tournament play on a travel team. Separate issue from the other thread... try not to confuse the two threads.

I disagree, this has to do with any coach on any level that abuses any pitchers arm. Just because a player moves up levels, doesn't mean he should be over used. The only difference should be that the pitcher needs to learn to speak up for himself, if mom and dad have made him understand what is acceptable and what is not. Some folks don't do that (educate their players), and they should. JMO.

Again, it's best to learn and understand the guidelines for each age, and he obviously has no clue, you don't put a pitcher out there 2 days in a row.

TPM, I would like to buy a clue for $100.

Actually a lot of tournaments we play give maximum innings a pitcher can pitch in a 2 day tournament and a maximum innings one day (normally 3) to be able to pitch the next day.

Personally I would probably start with my son at a maximum of 50 pitches or 3 innings which ever came first to be able to pitch the next day unless he discomfort stopped him short. I would adjust (up or down) depending upon weather and physical stamina.

quote:

Originally posted by tradosaurus:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Trad - go back and read the OP. You will see it had nothing to do with HS coaching but a lot to do with excessive pitching in tournament play on a travel team. Separate issue from the other thread... try not to confuse the two threads.

I disagree, this has to do with any coach on any level that abuses any pitchers arm. Just because a player moves up levels, doesn't mean he should be over used. The only difference should be that the pitcher needs to learn to speak up for himself, if mom and dad have made him understand what is acceptable and what is not. Some folks don't do that (educate their players), and they should. JMO.

Again, it's best to learn and understand the guidelines for each age, and he obviously has no clue, you don't put a pitcher out there 2 days in a row.

TPM, I would like to buy a clue for $100.

Actually a lot of tournaments we play give maximum innings a pitcher can pitch in a 2 day tournament and a maximum innings one day (normally 3) to be able to pitch the next day.

Personally I would probably start with my son at a maximum of 50 pitches or 3 innings which ever came first to be able to pitch the next day unless he discomfort stopped him short. I would adjust (up or down) depending upon weather and physical stamina.

Is your son trained to pitch every day? Do guys that get paid pitch everyday, no, so why would your son?

Or better yet, why would you allow that? I mean you are are high and mighty about who you would allow your son to play for, and IMO my son would never play for a coach who even thought that, let alone did it, in pre HS, HS or college.

Because a tournmanet allows that to happen does that mean that is appropriate or healthy? Does overnight allow enough recovery time for the pitcher? Do you know the actual guidelines for youth pitchers as well as recovery time? Or are you just going by what some tournie director has as his rules, assuming that what he says must be correct.

I raise the anti for a clue.

If your son is 13-14 and throws 50 pitches about 3 days rest is recommended, not the next day, innings amounts are just there so you don't have the team stud repeat and beat everyone up.

I think of myself as pretty knowledgeable and safely-minded about pitching, so like everyone I'm outraged when I read about 115+48 pitches in a day. But when I think back to my son pitching and catching his way through four and five-game weekend tournaments over the last few years, his count of combined throws was worse on almost any day. He fortunately has never had a problem, and his arm seems stronger and livelier than ever, but that could be more luck than anything.

The fact that what works for one kid will not work for another, makes one-size-fits-all rule setting very difficult. Little League seems to have done a pretty good job by setting pitch rather than inning limits, but those of us who watched the LLWS last summer still saw two or three kids on camera grabbing their elbow or dropping to the mound after a pitch and then leaving the game. Do you set the rule so that will never happen to a pitcher, or so that it won't happen to most pitchers, or...? From that age on, the challenge seems to be balancing between wanting to keep players safe and also wanting to allow them to compete and learn what they can do. Even setting aside idiot coaches and over-protective parent as outliers, I still see lots of ways for well-intentioned, reasonable adults to get it wrong with regard to any one kid (see paragraph above). This is not to suggest that we stop trying to get it right, but rather that it is not easy.

All of which leads me to the question of what kind of safety line to draw for my freshman son, who will likely be pitching and catching this HS season. With regard to a suggestion from an earlier post, I can imagine what kind of "signal" he might give me from the mound if I tried sending him one from the stands. A pitch count makes sense, but I can also understand exceptions, whether its getting out of a jam, or closing out an inning or a game. I'm inclined to leave it up to my son to handle it with the coach, but I know he doesn't like to come out of games, so I'd be interested to hear from the parents of other pitchers (and pitcher/catchers) how they have handled it in high school.

There is a huge risk in playing any sport.

The whole idea, IMO is to try to stay as healthy as you can for as long as you can.

And remember, everything is accumulative. My son was fortunate to remain healthy in HS, in college but having a very frustrating pro career staying off the DL. For him it's been so close yet so far, can't look back and think what went wrong, because sheet happens, it's just a matter of when that can totally screw ya up.

The truth to understanding injuries and what causes them. Educate yourself.

http://www.bodybyscience.net/home.html/?page_id=18

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by tradosaurus:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Trad - go back and read the OP. You will see it had nothing to do with HS coaching but a lot to do with excessive pitching in tournament play on a travel team. Separate issue from the other thread... try not to confuse the two threads.

I disagree, this has to do with any coach on any level that abuses any pitchers arm. Just because a player moves up levels, doesn't mean he should be over used. The only difference should be that the pitcher needs to learn to speak up for himself, if mom and dad have made him understand what is acceptable and what is not. Some folks don't do that (educate their players), and they should. JMO.

Again, it's best to learn and understand the guidelines for each age, and he obviously has no clue, you don't put a pitcher out there 2 days in a row.

TPM, I would like to buy a clue for $100.

Actually a lot of tournaments we play give maximum innings a pitcher can pitch in a 2 day tournament and a maximum innings one day (normally 3) to be able to pitch the next day.

Personally I would probably start with my son at a maximum of 50 pitches or 3 innings which ever came first to be able to pitch the next day unless he discomfort stopped him short. I would adjust (up or down) depending upon weather and physical stamina.

Is your son trained to pitch every day? Do guys that get paid pitch everyday, no, so why would your son?

Or better yet, why would you allow that? I mean you are are high and mighty about who you would allow your son to play for, and IMO my son would never play for a coach who even thought that, let alone did it, in pre HS, HS or college.

Because a tournmanet allows that to happen does that mean that is appropriate or healthy? Does overnight allow enough recovery time for the pitcher? Do you know the actual guidelines for youth pitchers as well as recovery time? Or are you just going by what some tournie director has as his rules, assuming that what he says must be correct.

I raise the anti for a clue.

If your son is 13-14 and throws 50 pitches about 3 days rest is recommended, not the next day, innings amounts are just there so you don't have the team stud repeat and beat everyone up.

Well like I said this would be for my son only and I would listen to his physical well being. If the standard I set is too much I would adjust.

Relax! I have everything under control.

My recommendations for kids who pitch no matter what their age is. First, they should do band work and throwers ten. This is preventive work, especially for growth plate issues in the elbow and shoulder. Two, make sure you kid run before and after he pitches to help with soreness. Your body produces pain relief on its on, and this happens really well when running. Third, if he pitches in temperatures under 40 degrees use analgesic cream to heat the arm and shoulder up. Also, ibuprofen or Alieve is excellent for helping with blood circulation. My son takes one ibuprofen before every game he pitches. Check with you doctor before taking any medications. Lastly, stay away from curve balls, sliders, or any pitch that twist the elbow. Fastballs and change-ups are much safer pitches and can be just as effective. I would also not letting your son throw in a game until they have been on a throwing program for over a month before baseball season.

15 Dad you have a pm.

quote:

Originally posted by '15 Dad:
I'm inclined to leave it up to my son to handle it with the coach, but I know he doesn't like to come out of games, so I'd be interested to hear from the parents of other pitchers (and pitcher/catchers) how they have handled it in high school.

Good post, but keep in mind that most pitchers really don't feel fatigue until it's too late.
A good coach that is familiar with his players knows and understands when to take out the pitcher, usually seeing a change in mechanics will do it. In son's case it was when he began to drop his shoulder, that it was time to come out or a mound visit to see how he was doing. My suggestion is to discuss the guidelines you feel is right for your pitcher (with your son) so he can understand what is at stake and when to say he is ready to come out if not taken out. Discuss those things like long innings, or long wait between innings, or too early in season on the mound too long, all of this stuff adds up, eventually.

We never had an issue in HS, until son's senior year, first game of the season, tournament actually, 80+ pitches, even the scouts watching said he needed to come out. That was the first time and last time that happened, sometimes you just get carried away in a situation, but repeating that needs to not continue.

As far as those LL pitchers you see in the championships, think of it just like the road to any playoff, there is a LOT of extra baseball to be played to reach the finals, these kids are tired, they have to be, paid pitchers are come post season, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Pitcher/catcher is really tough on the shoulder, elbow, I think that at some point your son needs to decide which would work better for him, if he intends to go to the next level (college). You don't often see that combo at the college level, I think it's easy to understand why.

Thanks, TPM. Those are all thoughts I've had as well.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
That was the first time and last time that happened, sometimes you just get carried away in a situation...

That's it exactly. I think that also describes the Williamsport example. Biggest summer of the kids' lives. But *a lot* of baseball. The horses that got them there are expected to continue and want to show what they have. Everybody wants them to stay safe, but the adults are also pumped up and tend to get caught up in the moment. Do you let them have what could be their biggest moment, or cut them off so they don't risk an injury that could affect the rest of their career?

I think the fact is that risks get taken more often than we acknowledge, but since most of the time it works out okay, we focus our scorn on the few times when it is clearly associated with an injury.

In most cases, the kids playing at Williamsport will not ever have careers as baseball players.

I just hate to see a 12,13 year old in a cast up to his shoulder. I actually hate to see any pitcher in any cast. Sometimes, because of physiological and bilogical mistakes things happen, son had a cortocoid impingement, due to an enlarged cortacoid bone, it took a while to figure that one out, it happens. I would imagine if he had been over used or abused it would have shown up earlier, these are things you can't control, but there are so many things yo can.

Not until son went to Omaha in 2006 did we actually realize how much stress can be placed upon an entire team between conference championships, regionals, super regionals then Omaha. Thank goodness the p coach my son worked kjnows how to manage his pitching staff well.

Then it was off to Cape Cod for the summer. Lots of baseball, not necessarily lots of innings, but just exhaustion in general. Could be why son struggled the next season, I don't know.

No one can tell anyone what to do, I really think that people have to figure it out for themselves and if they do have concerns they need to not be afraid to share with the coach. I don't beleive in ever telling a coach how to run his program, but as a parent I have a responsibility to protect the health of my player. If some people can't see the difference, that's not my issue.

The most important thing is to learn to listen to others, it may not be your exact situation, but it can help to sort it all out.

quote:

Originally posted by '15 Dad:
…All of which leads me to the question of what kind of safety line to draw for my freshman son, who will likely be pitching and catching this HS season. With regard to a suggestion from an earlier post, I can imagine what kind of "signal" he might give me from the mound if I tried sending him one from the stands. A pitch count makes sense, but I can also understand exceptions, whether its getting out of a jam, or closing out an inning or a game. I'm inclined to leave it up to my son to handle it with the coach, but I know he doesn't like to come out of games, so I'd be interested to hear from the parents of other pitchers (and pitcher/catchers) how they have handled it in high school.

Here’s the problem when it comes to HS. Every state with HS baseball has pitching limitations, but they all use innings. And what exacerbates the problem is, every state is different! Here’s a compilation of all the different state limits I put together a couple years back. The toughest are Vermont, and the least limiting are Texas, with literally no limits.

http://www.infosports.com/scor...images/pitlimits.pdf

So what happens is, in a questionable situation, a parent will almost inevitably come out looking like an a$$ because the coaches will almost always be acting within the rules.

When it comes to “signals” from parents, I don’t believe in it. The parents and coach should always have limits determined long before they become a problem, so if you believe your child is in harm’s way, using proper decorum, step up and say so, no matter what the consequences.

quote:

Originally posted by tradosaurus:
…Actually a lot of tournaments we play give maximum innings a pitcher can pitch in a 2 day tournament and a maximum innings one day (normally 3) to be able to pitch the next day.

Personally I would probably start with my son at a maximum of 50 pitches or 3 innings which ever came first to be able to pitch the next day unless he discomfort stopped him short. I would adjust (up or down) depending upon weather and physical stamina.

Anyone who uses inning as a guide is just kidding themselves. I scored a HS game 3 years ago where the starting pitcher was over 100 pitches before the 3rd inning was over, and the kid who came in to relieve him went over 80 before the game was called on the mercy rule after 5.

The problem with pitching on consecutive days in youth ball, which is up through HS, is that it should never have to happen! If the coach isn’t smart enough to get enough pitching, or good enough to develop it, he sure isn’t someone I’d trust with my kid’s welfare. The problem isn’t that there isn’t enough pitching on a team, its that the coaches want to win so badly, they don’t trust all of the pitchers to throw.