PUJOLS and Steroids

Train,

Personally, I believe most players at the MLB level are taking some enhancements. Some legal, some not. Very few players are blessed with the physical charaterstics to just play straight. This has trickled down to the college and high school ranks. This is sad, but true. (I still remember a few years back when Ruben Siera and Julio Franco bulked up and there numbers went down because it was perceived that by bulking up it made them stiff). Well, times have changed.

Kids see this and know that this is what it takes, and boom here they go. This is a runaway freight Train, not sure what it's going to take to stop it.

It's an unfortunate part of baseball. Anyone that seems to be a baseball icon will now be looked at and questioned. As a fan I ask myself who is to blame? Is it the people using the drugs and making it an "accepted" part of the game, or is it the clean players that don't demand more strict rules against these enhancements. Also the owners must be considered, I mean, come on they would do anything for results. No one has a clean slate in this. I just hope it gets cleaned up in time that I can watch kids I'm now playing with and against make it to the big time and not be questioned. Unfortunately this is not something that just goes away.

DTiger unfortunatly the High School kids are already doing Steroids. I bet if you tested every School you would have at least one Student Athlete in every School that is on the juice.. I think that is a conservative estimate.

I agree with that statement. At the high school I attend, supposedly a high moral Christian school, I can gaurantee you 5 kids in one grade that take them. There are others that would but don't have the money. It is undeniable that they put players over the top. Jason Grimsley probably doesn't make it to the majors without HGH, or if he does, it's short lived. Whats scary about that drug is that he took it just so he could sustain himself for a 162 game season. Kids will think that way and think that it's not a performance enhancer, it simply allows you to perform longer. Obviously we know it's not true. I don't know if anyone saw about David Segui. He reportedly has been taking HGH for a long time, but with a Dr's perscription. Does this make it OK? I think he had a defficiency or something that required for him to take the drug? I'm not sure on those facts.

I think the problem starts at the top. Sometimes in work a boss might say, get it done anyway you can. Results are what kids want, they don't care how they get there. Until the professional athletes show that they don't need it, or simply stop taking it, there will be no fix.

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
I don't know if anyone saw about David Segui. He reportedly has been taking HGH for a long time, but with a Dr's perscription. Does this make it OK? I think he had a defficiency or something that required for him to take the drug? I'm not sure on those facts.

I think the problem starts at the top. Sometimes in work a boss might say, get it done anyway you can. Results are what kids want, they don't care how they get there. Until the professional athletes show that they don't need it, or simply stop taking it, there will be no fix.

Unfortunately, Some Dr's will write a prescription or a note for just about anything. This was a topic
on one of them TV invetigative shows about a year ago. (ie Nightline...etc)

I really hope that Pujols is not on the take.

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
At the high school I attend, supposedly a high moral Christian school, I can guarantee you 5 kids in one grade that take them. There are others that would but don't have the money.

So why do kids think it's so important to take these enhancers?

Are they not educated to the harm they cause, or do they think it will never catch up with them?

Are they under so much pressure to be the best at their level that they deem this the only way to achieve?

Is it too hard to go out and WORK at being successful?

What is it WE as adults need to do to "stop the stupidity?"

Wow...I really want to thank those of you that addressed this topic with sincerity.

I think it starts in the HS and should be mandatory testing. I really wish all pro sports had a one strike and your banned for life. They have the world by the _ alls and they ruin it for athletes that really work so hard to get to the top of their game.

I agree with everyones replies. I am interested to hear what DBAT GM, FD, SwingDr, PD, KD, and other coaches/scouts/and friends have to say.

We can make a difference but what sucks is it usually takes a death or two to get something done which is always too late in my mind.

Thanks again for the comments.

I think it's a combination of everything. Even though it's a Christian school, athletics are heavily pressured. Ironically, I'd say 1/4 of the kids that take them, don't play a school sport. So that really boggles my mind. We're talking straight up illegal drugs, but there are probably 3 to 4 times as many that take legal enhancers for working out. They can harm the body, but they are legal. I heard a reason for the use and it really does fit. Students use drugs to get to the "next level." That level can be from being a bench warmer to a starter in football (any sport obviously), a starter on varsity at a younger age, a college scholarship, a starting spot on the college roster, a pro contract, and then finally a multi-million dollar contract. It's kind of like gateway drugs (not performance enhancers). A student thinks, "dang I really want to make varsity." So he takes them, he doesn't get caught, and it works. Then next year comes around, he thinks, "I really want to be a star on the team." He takes some more, maybe a better (more helpful, not safer obviously) enhancer. He accomplishes his goal. Well after taking them for a while and not being caught, he feels like he can keep doing it and not get caught. Whats scary is that kids that do this aren't just originally bad kids at their given sport. They are normally kids with good potential, a great work ethic, and a smart head on their shoulders. I could sit here and tell you it's pressure parents and coaches put in them, but it isn't. The desire to get better is one that every parent wants a kid to have, and that's exactly what leads to this. Kids feel that they've done everything they can to get better. They have weight trained, run extra sprints every day, taken extra swings. Obviously there are exceptions, but the kids that I'm aware of that take enhancers of any kind, this is the cause 95% of the time. After having written all this, I really don't know what more a parent can do rather than make a kid aware of the risks. Just with any other drugs, kids will do what they want. It is very unfortunate. Kids aren't stupid, I promise that, but they are driven and pushed (mainly by themselves) to always be better. I hope this helps somewhat.

Train, you want to know what I think about the issue? I'm disgusted by the cheaters and scumbags at the pro level that have embarassed our great sport. Their selfish and indulgent use of steroids, enhancements and growth hormones have caused not just a trickle down effect but a tidal wave from pro ball through college ball and into the high schools. Whatever any of you think is the probable percentage of kids abusing their bodies I would suggest that you are likely wrong and have grossly underestimated. One in a grade? Five in a school? Please. This is an epidemic and it's easy to obtain these poisons.

For the last five years or more I have seen kids that play ball locally through HS go off to play in college or the minors and eight months later they are enormous. It is a problem and it is prevalent. It starts with a kid being talked into doing just one cycle to build this or develop that. Then it's another cycle and before long they're passing the torch to younger naive kids that want to bulk up like they did. Probably the worst part of it is that kids are relying upon information about drugs from other kids. Drugs that are often times meant for animals and little Johnny is telling little Bobby how much to take of what to result in this or that. This alone should scare any parent.

You say that someone will have to die to get something done but I think that would only impact those who knew the poor soul. IMO what will impact kids is an absolute NO TOLERANCE attitude that has to start at the pro level. If it starts with their heroes being humiliated - all the better. Let it sink in and let them feel the shame and disgust and then maybe, just maybe, kids will start thinking before they pollute their bodies.

You can test HS kids all you want and end up spending lots of money with minimal results but until we, as a whole, demand an absolute NO TOLERANCE policy from those that have started this epidemic in the first place then there will not be change. Every time some moron defends a Bonds, Sosa, McGwire or the like they might as well be telling some kid in HS that as long as you don't actually get caught with the product in your hand you cannot be proven guilty. People just want to look the other way because, hey, its not my problem.....so what if some overpaid mongoloid hits 75 jacks?

I personally believe that the crux of prevention starts at home with your own kids but the ridiculous 'buried head in sand' routine of the jackass that is running MLB has got to stop.

That's how I feel....

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
I agree with that statement. At the high school I attend, supposedly a high moral Christian school, I can gaurantee you 5 kids in one grade that take them. There are others that would but don't have the money.

I also don't know everyone, and my class size is relatively small.

DBAT GM,

Well said, Dbat. I seems the tone of our little chat room is changing and the No-this-isn't-a-problem types are starting to quiet a bit. It wasn't two months ago when the thread involving the Barry Bonds situation was, at least to a degree, scoffed at here. I asked a high schooler the other night how prevalant the problem is and he very matter-of-factly quipped, "It's all over the place."

And don't get too comfortable with the idea that maybe these kids are only taking supplements. Number one, sometimes these supplements are used merely to allow mommy and daddy to feel better about their son's recent growth spurt. And number 2--even more importantly, I think--just because they're available OTC doesn't mean these chemicals aren't harmful. When companies start voluntarily removing certain supplements from the shelf, beware. And this seems to be happening regularly.

And just in case you think testing's the answer:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2492703

JABO

Thank DBat and others. Very well said. As the father of a very young son I can only hope that by the time he is old enough to understand all of this more adults will have taken the attitude of many here.

Tim

My opinion..........

It is obvious that there is a problem with steriod use in MLB. To what degree is really all speculation as of now.

As for the trickle down theroy and how steriod use in the HS ranks is determined by penalties cast upon MLB players is a cop out in my opinion.

To say that until MLB imposes more severe penalties for those who are guilty, HS steriod use will continue to increase is bogus.

Yes, I do agree that our youth is influenced by their considered peers. But there are people that should be in place to intercept problems such as these way before the opportunity presents itself.

Such as.........

1. Parents. It is my opinion that kids today have much less responsiblity from the days of even when I was growing up. Parents do not put enough pressure on their children and force consequences for their own actions.

I have had the great opportunity to coach some players of who's parents I would consider mentors to myself. The single most important thing I will take when raising my son is that the most important thing to can teach your child is "character". If your child can learn character is of most importance, those tough decisions can be thought out and hopefully put them into the proper situation. If a decision is made improper by the child, harsh consequences must be imposed.

2. Coaches. Even a bigger problem in my opinion. Teams, organizations, and affiliations continue to bend for the individual player for the benifit of the success of the group.

MAJOR PROBLEM.

Coaches today do not impose a strict enough regimine to teach players responsiblity. Rules are put in place to teach our youth they are responsible for their actions. Several times each day, coaches allow players to deviate from the rules set forth in fear of losing a player which would effect the team performance.

My answer to this is...............You are doing a larger injustice to that particular player AND..............the team.

Of coarse, there are many situations that I have brought up in the past that I really don't care to rehash. And that is why I choose not to coach at the present time.

If I as a coach, cannot impose what I think is important to a group as a whole and strickly enforce it............I will not coach.

And until parents allow coaches to do such without interference or acceptance and expressing so to their children, our society as a whole will continue to see larger problems evolve.

It all goes back to the small town football coach who was considered a good coach because of the discipline he imposed. The town as a community accepted it because that's all they knew. And whether it was right or wrong, they as parents did not allow their children to question it.

And it is now, that most folks wish for the opportunities for their children to be raised in "the way things used to be".

Things can be "the way things used to be".

But you must have CHARACTER at the top with a supporting cast.

Then, and only then, will you see that trickle down theory evolve upon things that are right in the eyes of the public.

So often, even on this board, I see certain opinions and organizations praised for their success. But, it is important to really understand what success should be at this time for our youth. As pertaining to "select" baseball.

Success should not be about making it to a World Series or how many players are sent to various "all star" events.

Success should be about how organizations prepare young men to deal with tough decisions and building "character" in each individual.

And when an organization bends for one, it dilutes the whole theory and backbone you wish to impose.

Steriod use is of importance now because it is the hot topic. But I think, we will look back on these days in the future and wish that steriod abuse was our only problem.

As sad as that may seem.

quote:

As for the trickle down theroy and how steriod use in the HS ranks is determined by penalties cast upon MLB players is a cop out in my opinion.

To say that until MLB imposes more severe penalties for those who are guilty, HS steriod use will continue to increase is bogus.

KG, we'll have to agree to disgree on the the trickle down theory being a cop out or bogus.

It has been well documented that one of the greatest hitters of our time, Barry Bonds (pre-juice), started using to keep up with McGwire and Sosa. So you're going to tell me you don't think that Joe Shmoe in the bigs, minors or amateur ball didn't start for the very same reason? C'mon now.

They started using to keep up with Joneses and then others started using to keep up with them. Get bigger and hit it farther. The college kid that wants to get drafted started using to get where the minor leaguer is and the high school kid started so he could get where the college kid is. It is one heckuva vicious cycle and it all starts and ends for one reason - to get to the bigs and be the best of the best.

To blame HS or select coaches also doesn't make sense to me. To say that the men that coach these kids on their way up the ladder are responsible is a reach at best. Give a little leeway because Little Johnny is late to a practice or runs off to a showcase and WHAM it's the coach's fault he's on steroids?

Regardless of what is at stake during HS or summer ball I hardly think that if a coach KNEW his kids were using he would turn a blind eye. Some may SUSPECT but if they KNEW I'd like to think they would act.

What I am saying is John,

It all goes back to "Character" and following through in leadership roles.

Why don't you think Rusty Greer plays anymore.

Maybe it's because he had the character to make the right decisions.

Could he have prolonged his career with steriod use? Probably.

But character didn't allow that to happen because somebody somewhere taught him what was right or wrong and a personal decision was made.

But again, our society doesn't focus on those examples.

They want to get caught up with success. Just like the Homerun chase with McGuire. Nobody took the time to really dig deep into that situation at the present time. They were caught up in the glory of the success at the present time.

Just like some of the things you and I are familiar with.

quote:

Originally posted by DBAT 18 GM:
Some may SUSPECT but if they KNEW I'd like to think they would act.

Are there are soooooooo many examples of this that prove that theory incorrect.

Go catch a junior college game in our local region and then tell me some don't put the blind fold on.

I understand your point about character and you and I have had many conversations about issues related to that topic. I just don't see the correlation to steroids. Many of the guys on TV that are using right now grew up in a different time before showcases, advisors, steroids, etc. Heck, Bonds grew up with his dad Bobby and godfather Willie Mays and others that had to have taught him something about character as a kid. Didn't help him much though, did it? He still crossed that line. Others cross it every day and start that first cycle.

It's about keeping up with others that are doing it to achieve that ultimate success but they don't think about the consequences. I say it starts at the top and if you cut the head off of the dragon then that too will trickle down. Exposure of our heroes and the total and complete expulsion of the cheaters is the only way out of this mess. It will be ugly and painful for us all to watch but it has to happen.

quote:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by DBAT 18 GM:
Some may SUSPECT but if they KNEW I'd like to think they would act.

Are there are soooooooo many examples of this that prove that theory incorrect.

Go catch a junior college game in our local region and then tell me some don't put the blind fold on.

In the quote you used I referred to HS and summer ball - not the junior colleges. IMO the physical results of steroids are still so much less obvious in HS.

quote:

Originally posted by DBAT 18 GM:
I understand your point about character. I just don't see the correlation to steroids.

Here's the best example I can use to help you understand........

Little Johnny is looking at the cookie jar. Father tells little Johnny no.

Little Johnny decides to make the the decision to test his father in hopes for a sweet taste of that cookie.

Johnny sticks his hand out.......SLAP. The father says no and Johnny gets no cookie.

5 minutes later, while father is watching, little Johnny decides for another attempt at the cookie. This time with success.

As the father figures surely there is minimal harm in getting only one cookie before dinner.

HERE LIES THE PROBLEM.

Now you have told that child that it's OK sometimes. Very laxed consequences.

What's next. Little Johnny wants a toy at the store. Dad tells him no, only to find that toy when they get home in Johnny's pocket.

Next, little Johnny wants to take the car as dad says No. Only to find Johnny in a wreck on the corner with Mr. Forgiving.

Now, BIG Johnny wants that needle. Knowing that in the past the decisions he has made haven't really resulted in any real harsh consequences.

Do you see where I'm going with this John?

I know is seems so unrealistic. But for a moment, think about some of the decisions today you make as a "manager" that are so different than what they were 10 years ago.

Now. An example relative to baseball.

Watch the college WS tonight and read the lips of some players after a "bad" play is made by a particular player.

Sometimes the player uses his glove in the effort to disguise his words.

What are the words? We all can see it but cannot hear it.

So, as a society in general, we ignore it and move on to that game winning homerun and watch with amazement hoping our kid has a chance to do that on national TV.

Rewind................

10 years ago a coach would have pulled that kid off the field by his ear and told him never to cuss again on the mound in which little kids can hear it from the stands.

At least my college coach would have and maybe even made me think about it from the bench.

Little things lead to bigger things.

Such as in this case steriods.

Not only are the coaches looking the other way, they are sometimes the ones behind the pressure for these kids to use.

And steroids aren't a recent phenonemon, they've been around since I was in college. My brother was told by his pitching coach nearly 25 years ago that he needed to do a cycle during the offseason.

Speed has been used in the locker room of baseball stadiums for generations.

Let's not all get into the "old timers syndrome" thinking there once was a good old days, because there never was. The game has had cheaters since they started writing the rules. HGH is just the latest incarnation of it.

Lyle Alzado's ticket to the NFL was anabolic steroids. An undersized player in high school, he began experimenting with the muscle-building drugs in college and never stopped. That led to a lucrative career in the NFL.


But in 1992, seven years after playing in his last regular-season game, Alzado died from brain lymphoma, a rare form of cancer. He was 43. Although there is no medical link between steroids and brain lymphoma, Alzado was certain the drugs were responsible for his cancer. He became a symbol of the dangers of steroid abuse.


The 6-foot-3, 254-pound Alzado played 15 seasons at defensive end for the Denver Broncos, Cleveland Browns and Los Angeles Raiders. He was twice named All-Pro and compiled 97 sacks in 196 games.


A violent, combative player known for his short temper, Alzado was most comfortable with the renegade Raiders of the 1980s, helping them beat Washington in Super Bowl XVIII. But he also starred for Denver's "Orange Crush" defense of the 1970s, compiling 64½ sacks.


At the height of his steroid and human growth hormone abuse, Alzado estimated he spent $30,000 a year on the drugs, often buying them at gyms around the country. His second wife, Cindy, blamed the breakup of their marriage on his mood swings caused by steroids. She said she called police at least five times during their marriage because Lyle physically abused her, but Alzado was never arrested.


"The guy had a split personality," Raiders defensive end Greg Townsend said. "On the field, he had this tough image that he projected. Off the field he was the gentle giant. So caring, so warm, so giving."


That might have been true most of the time, but Alzado also admitted the steroids sometimes made him so crazy that at times he couldn't deal with social stress. "Once in Denver in 1979 a guy sideswiped my car," he said, "and I chased him up and down the hills through the neighborhoods."


After years of denying he used steroids, Alzado came clean in a first-person story for Sports Illustrated in July 1991, three months after being diagnosed with brain cancer. "It was addicting, mentally addicting," Alzado wrote of his steroid use. "I just didn't feel strong unless I was taking something."


By the following spring, Lyle Alzado was dead.


He was born on April 3, 1949 in Brooklyn, N.Y., the son of an Italian-Spanish father, Maurice, and a Jewish mother, Martha. The family moved to Cedarhurst, on Long Island, when Lyle was 10.


Alzado endured family tensions. He described his father as a "drinker and street fighter" who left home when Lyle was a sophomore in high school. Martha worked as a florist, earning less than $100 a week. To help support his mother and four siblings, Alzado worked while in high school.


On the football field, Alzado was an aggressive defensive lineman at Lawrence High School, but he was no star. When he graduated, there were no scholarship offers waiting.


After Kilgore Junior College in Texas told Alzado he wasn't good enough for the football team in 1967 - Alzado later said his befriending an African-American teammate was to blame - he was accepted at Yankton College, a tiny NAIA school in South Dakota. It was here that Alzado began using steroids.


In 1970, a Broncos assistant coach had car trouble in Montana and decided to pass the time by watching Montana Tech on film. The opponent was Yankton, and Alzado performed impressively.


Denver made Alzado its fourth pick in the 1971 draft. He became a starter at defensive end as a rookie and soon emerged as a feared member of the defense. "My first year with the Broncos, I was like a maniac," Alzado said. "I outran, outhit, outanythinged everybody. All along I was taking steroids and I saw that they made me play better and better."


After his rookie season, Alzado went back to Yankton to get his college degree. He received a B.A. in physical education with an emphasis on secondary education. In 1972, Alzado led Denver with 10½ sacks and tied for the most tackles with 91. He set a Broncos record with 13 sacks in 1974, when he began a string of seven straight games with at least one sack, a streak that continued through the first game of 1975.

In 1977, he was named the AFC's Defensive Player of the Year and Defensive Lineman of the Year after leading the Broncos with eight sacks. In Super Bowl XII, a 27-10 loss to Dallas, Alzado and teammate Rubin Carter each had two sacks, becoming the first players in franchise history with multiple sacks in a postseason game.

After making the Pro Bowl for the second consecutive year, Alzado - who had led the team in sacks in five of the last seven seasons - and the Broncos had a contract dispute. He flirted with the idea of becoming a pro boxer and in July 1979, he went eight rounds with heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali in an exhibition. A month later, Alzado walked out of the Broncos' training camp. Management responded by trading him to Cleveland for draft picks.

Alzado's best season with the Browns was 1980, when he led the team with nine sacks. The following season he led the team with 8½. But that wasn't good enough to keep his career in Cleveland alive. Looking to dump salary, the Browns traded Alzado to the Raiders for an eighth-round draft choice in April 1982.


"A lot of guys on the Raiders asked me about steroids, and I'd help them get what they needed," Alzado said.


In a strike-shortened season, Alzado tied for the team lead with seven sacks, earning him honors as NFL Comeback Player of the Year. Against the Jets, he ripped the helmet off offensive tackle Chris Ward and flung it, prompting the NFL to create a rule outlawing helmet throwing.


In 1983, he had seven sacks in the regular season before getting 2½ in the Raiders' 38-10 rout of Pittsburgh in the divisional playoffs. The Raiders advanced to the Super Bowl, where Alzado promised to behead Redskins quarterback Joe Theismann. That didn't happen (Alzado had no sacks), but he got a Super Bowl ring with the Raiders' 38-9 victory.


"I was so wild about winning," Alzado said. "It's all I cared about - winning, winning. I never talked about anything else."


After getting six sacks in 1984, Alzado was limited to only 11 games the next season, recording just three sacks. He retired after the campaign, attributing his use of steroids to the Achilles' tendon injury that forced his exit from the game he loved.

Pursuing an acting career, he appeared in 15 movies, all of them forgettable, such as Ernest Goes to Camp, Tapeheads and Club Fed.


In 1990, at 41, Alzado attempted a comeback with the Raiders. He suffered a knee injury in training camp, played in one exhibition game and was waived.

In March 1991, at the marriage to his fourth wife, Kathy, he couldn't walk a straight line. A month later, he was diagnosed with brain cancer.

In his account to Sports Illustrated, Alzado said he began taking anabolic steroids in college in 1969 and never stopped. "It wasn't worth it," Alzado wrote. "If you're on steroids or human growth hormone, stop. I should have."


After receiving a radical chemotherapy treatment and contracting pneumonia, Alzado died on May 14, 1992 at his home in Portland, Ore. The official cause of death was complications from brain cancer.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
Not only are the coaches looking the other way, they are sometimes the ones behind the pressure for these kids to use.

And steroids aren't a recent phenonemon, they've been around since I was in college. My brother was told by his pitching coach nearly 25 years ago that he needed to do a cycle during the offseason.

Speed has been used in the locker room of baseball stadiums for generations.

Let's not all get into the "old timers syndrome" thinking there once was a good old days, because there never was. The game has had cheaters since they started writing the rules. HGH is just the latest incarnation of it.

And I assume you make these comments with first hand experience in a MLB clubhouse correct?

Another example of how society in general and the media can alter the facts as known to the common fan.

Of coarse, I agree there will always be cheaters. But again, try to focus on what the real issue is rather than veering into other unknown territories.

quote:

Originally posted by collikar:
So why do kids think it's so important to take these enhancers?

Are they not educated to the harm they cause, or do they think it will never catch up with them?

Are they under so much pressure to be the best at their level that they deem this the only way to achieve?

Is it too hard to go out and WORK at being successful?

What is it WE as adults need to do to "stop the stupidity?"

Because they perceive that others are gaining some benefit from taking them. And as we all know, "perception is reality" in these instances.

I hope that by now most of them are educated.

Some of them put that pressure on themselves.

There will always be some that take the shortcut. Unfortunately, as DT pointed out, there are probably some that are working hard & hitting the 'roids too.

Good question as to how to stop the insanity.

It is hard for any teen to take a long term view. Heck, it is hard for a lot of adults.

I am in favor of testing for HS, college & pros.

Seeing more of the cheating scumbags (agree entirely with DBGM - every single word in his post) banned can't hurt. It may discourage it some. But KG is right in that there will always be some who never believe they will be caught. Yet that is not an excuse for not banning the cheaters. If banning the cheaters stops even a small percentage of the kids using steroids, then it is worth it.

And then there is that character thing that KG talked about. Banning the cheaters is part of that character thing. The sport should show it has some character and integrity.

KG has some good points. {But I don't think forbidding players to attend the AC is the answer to all our ills.}

We do need to talk with our kids. We need to ensure that they know:

1. Steroids can be harmful because in addition to the commonly known side effects:
a. They can stunt the natural growth, even though they can help "bulk up"
b. Many of the illegally obtained steroids can be contaminated, improperly prepared, etc. and can lead to serious problems.

2. The effects are very short lived. What good will the steriods have done them when they have to quit taking them for fear of being caught in the testing? The advantage will evaporate like the morning mist and then they will be exposed. And if you don't perform today, it won't matter that you hit the dingers last season. You'll be done.

3. Testing does occur and will increase.

4. It is cheating and is wrong.

5. What they build up naturally through their workouts will stay with them and will have good long term effects.

6. If they are willing to work hard, they can perform just fine without them.

7. Steroids won't help hand/eye coordination, instincts, judgement at the plate, mental toughness, mechanics, etc.


My son is convinced that several of his HS teammates were using 'roids. Interestingly, one of these kids was expecting to go fairly high in the draft. He wasn't drafted at all. I wonder if scouts got wind of the 'roids.

Yes, perhaps the scouts were overly concerned about the 'roids themselves. But they may have projected "down", estimating what the kid would be doing if he wasn't on 'roids. Assuming that the testing would cause the kid to stop taking them and eliminating some of his current advantage. I don't know. I would be interested in hearing scouts' thoughts on that.

Texan son & I have talked about 'roids. I believe he is smart enough to earn his baseball skills the old fashioned way, and not damage himself with the 'roids.

[quote]MAJOR PROBLEM.

Coaches today do not impose a strict enough regimine to teach players responsiblity. .....quote]

And Coaches need to realize that their behavior OFF the field has an impact on their players as well!!

quote:

Originally posted by Melynda:
[quote]MAJOR PROBLEM.

Coaches today do not impose a strict enough regimine to teach players responsiblity. .....quote]

And Coaches need to realize that their behavior OFF the field has an impact on their players as well!!

In regards to???

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:


Yet that is not an excuse for not banning the cheaters. If banning the cheaters stops even a small percentage of the kids using steroids, then it is worth it.

I agree. Maybe I left that part out.

quote:

{But I don't think forbidding players to attend the AC is the answer to all our ills.}

Glad you weren't offended KG, & took that in the spirit in which it was intended. Just realized I forgot to put the smiley face on it.

If your kid is under the age of 18, is taking steroids, and you are dumb enough or blind enough to not see it, or choose not to do anything about it to stop it, you should suffer the consequences also whether it be jail time, or charged with injury to a child, or whatever else there is to get it stopped.

The first responsibility lies with the parents. Until they are held accountable, along with the kids, it will never stop IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
Not only are the coaches looking the other way, they are sometimes the ones behind the pressure for these kids to use.

And steroids aren't a recent phenonemon, they've been around since I was in college. My brother was told by his pitching coach nearly 25 years ago that he needed to do a cycle during the offseason.

Speed has been used in the locker room of baseball stadiums for generations.

Let's not all get into the "old timers syndrome" thinking there once was a good old days, because there never was. The game has had cheaters since they started writing the rules. HGH is just the latest incarnation of it.

And I assume you make these comments with first hand experience in a MLB clubhouse correct?

Another example of how society in general and the media can alter the facts as known to the common fan.

Of coarse, I agree there will always be cheaters. But again, try to focus on what the real issue is rather than veering into other unknown territories.

No Ken, not by being there, but by talking to real live human beings that were. Guys that spent years in the Major Leagues. Guys that spent years in the minors. Real life stories. Not some special on Channel 8.

And what is the real issue? The thread was started as a Steriod issue, but you tried to turn it into a AFLAC/JW issue, as you always do. And bring up Character, and basically saying that todays kids don't have the character of the old timers.

Dude, there was cusing on the ballfields back to the day they played the first game. Ty Cobb nearly beat a guy to death in the stands at a game, that wasn't today, or yesterday, but in 1912.

The great game of baseball was the last professional sport in the country to intergrate.....some character they showed, huh?

The greatest hitter of all time was banned from the game for betting on his own team. Pete Rose sure showed some character.

Corked bats galore through history. Vasoline on the caps. Steroids in the locker room while the owners, the managers and the coaches all looked the other way.

The one thing I don't want the game to teach my son is character, because it sure doesn't have a lot of history of having any.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Guthrie:

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
Not only are the coaches looking the other way, they are sometimes the ones behind the pressure for these kids to use.

And steroids aren't a recent phenonemon, they've been around since I was in college. My brother was told by his pitching coach nearly 25 years ago that he needed to do a cycle during the offseason.

Speed has been used in the locker room of baseball stadiums for generations.

Let's not all get into the "old timers syndrome" thinking there once was a good old days, because there never was. The game has had cheaters since they started writing the rules. HGH is just the latest incarnation of it.

And I assume you make these comments with first hand experience in a MLB clubhouse correct?

Another example of how society in general and the media can alter the facts as known to the common fan.

Of coarse, I agree there will always be cheaters. But again, try to focus on what the real issue is rather than veering into other unknown territories.

No Ken, not by being there, but by talking to real live human beings that were. Guys that spent years in the Major Leagues. Guys that spent years in the minors. Real life stories. Not some special on Channel 8.

And what is the real issue? The thread was started as a Steriod issue, but you tried to turn it into a AFLAC/JW issue, as you always do. And bring up Character, and basically saying that todays kids don't have the character of the old timers.

Dude, there was cusing on the ballfields back to the day they played the first game. Ty Cobb nearly beat a guy to death in the stands at a game, that wasn't today, or yesterday, but in 1912.

The great game of baseball was the last professional sport in the country to intergrate.....some character they showed, huh?

The greatest hitter of all time was banned from the game for betting on his own team. Pete Rose sure showed some character.

Corked bats galore through history. Vasoline on the caps. Steroids in the locker room while the owners, the managers and the coaches all looked the other way.

The one thing I don't want the game to teach my son is character, because it sure doesn't have a lot of history of having any.

And again, I realize why I rarely interact in dialoge with you.

I really want to thank all of you for joining in this discussion. I wish there was something that could be done in ALL PRO SPORTS that banned the athlete from ever playing again. I really liked DBAT GM's and KG's comments on this topic.

I hope PUJOLS was not involved but after watching the offensive display he has shown and his continued growth of his body I would think he is linked to the scandal.

I really want the youth to know that they do not, should not, touch that stuff as it will kill you in the long run. There is no doubt it will help you perform BUT shorten your life.

Let your body perform on its own and if it was meant to be....it will happen.

Thanks again to all that participated.

Maybe male users should see this information.


"One of the more disturbing effects of steroid use for males is that the body begins to produce less of its own testosterone. As a result, the testicles may begin to shrink. Following is a list of some of the other effects of steroid use for males:

Reduced sperm count
Impotence
Increase in ****** and breast size (gynecomastia)
Enlarged prostate (gland that mixes fluid with sperm to form semen)"

http://www.aap.org/pubed/ZZZT6QV5M7C.htm?&sub_cat=1

quote:

Originally posted by Train:

I hope PUJOLS was not involved but after watching the offensive display he has shown and his continued growth of his body I would think he is linked to the scandal.

I can completely understand. But one thing is important here and that is don't always believe what is relayed by media.

As the bullpen catcher with the Rangers between 99'-01' I was able to see first hand behind closed doors the difference the media portrayed certain issues vs. what actually happened.

Again, I'm not saying it is not possible, but after experiences I tend to lean towards innocent until proven guilty.

Then again, I took showers with several players including Raffy, and he would be the last guy I would have thought took steriods.

Did I just say that.

quote:

Then again, I took showers with several players including Raffy, and he would be the last guy I would have thought took steriods.

Wow. That's a little more information than I needed to know.

I have been following this thread but have refrained from posting until now but this may be the longest post I ever make.. Here are some thoughts/comments.

KG - I think as parents the vast majority of posters on this site and MOST of the parents I have met through baseball are all about "character" and teaching their sons to be men of character. It appears to me that most of the Texas posters and most of the families I have met through baseball have done a very fine job with their sons developing character. You will see as you continue to parent that it is an increasingly difficult task the older your son gets. It is easy to second guess other parents but the fact is no matter how much you say "no" and no matter how "tough" you parent your son, your son is likely to do things that will disappoint you during the teen years. Hopefully this will not involve steroids or something of that magnitude but it is very likely that they will do something that will disappoint you. I learned long ago never to say, "my child will never _______ (fill in the blank)" because invariably I would end up eating my words. I am not talking about steroids specifically with this example, but parenting in general. All that to say....there are very good parents with very good kids that will still fall prey to steroids.

I am sure most of you have heard of Don Hooton and the Taylor Hooton Foundation. Don Hooton's son, Taylor, was a baseball player at Plano West a few years back. He was told by his coaches to get bigger and stronger. Good kid, good family, good parenting yet he comitted suicide in July '03 ... a side effect of the depression caused by steroid use. They were tough love parents...heck, Taylor was grounded from his truck when he took his life. His parents had become aware that Taylor was secretly doing steriods and they were working like crazy to try to get him off...it still resulted in his death. I took my son to hear Mr. Hooton speak this year and it was very powerful. Every school district in our area should invite Mr. Hooton to speak to athletes and their parents. There has been a tremendous amount of support for the Hooton's nationally (MLB recently donated $1 million to the foundation, Mr. Hooton was invited to testify in front of congress regarding steroids the same day as the big name players, he has been in several national publications) but he has rec'd little support from the Dallas baseball community or the Plano school district (PD and other Plano parents - please don't take this statement personally, this is just my opinion based upon reading newspaper articles and hearing Mr. Hooton speak. I know, there are two sides to every story but I have not been impressed with the quotes the district has given the Dallas Morning News in regard to steriod use and the Hooton situation. Also, I am not implying that there is a steroid issue in Plano, I am just saying I believe across the state there are issues.)

http://www.taylorhooton.org/index.asp

For too many years the HS's have been avoiding this issue....it is a valid issue and it should be addressed more proactively at the HS level....

Article regarding steroids in Texas high schools...

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/spe/2005/steroids/index.html

Cheapseat,

I understand and appreciate your post. And I know that my son will do things that I probably did that will upset me. But truely, that was not my point.

Yes, steriod is a serious problem. Yes, there needs to be action taken at all levels.

But.............what I am trying to point out is that the steriod problems are just like the other problems out there. Everything is getting worse.

When I was in HS, grad of 93', I was never once introduced to any sort of drug. Now, is that luck? Or was it a choice? I say a little of both due to the fact of who I associated with and that was a choice I made.

But even now as a former coach of teenagers, I was amazed about the visibility of drugs among the youth I was involved with. And these were what I considered good kids. Now were they using drugs? In all my heart I would say NO. But the things they would say in conversation told me they were around.

Every child has a choice. There are avenues out there to help our youth make choices.

What I am saying is..................the avenues today are much more laxed than in the recent past.

And to associate how MLB punishes abusers to the direct amount of HS users is again...................a cop out in my opinion.

It all goes back to putting responsibility on our youth for the decisions they make everyday.

Some will agree with me and some won't. But I have seen too many examples that support my opinions.

It all begins at home


As my Dad used to tell me "I can't be with you 24 hours a day. I can only hope that what I have taught you has sunk in and you will do the right thing when the time comes"