Pull Downs Velocity

It is a throw that has almost no practical use in actual baseball. Maybe an outfielder will occasionally leave his feet and then do a cop-roll after landing, but I haven't seen many. My 2022 CIF/P doesn't max out with the sprint before the throw or go airborne, but lots of gym superstars do. His difference between pull down velo and mound velo is only 2mph. Some guys are 5-8.

"How and why do pulldowns correlate to mound velocity?  In 57 pitchers who participated in the training program that included various amounts of pulldowns depending on the subject, there are direct correlations to velocity improvements based on age.  Overall, there was a 6.1mph difference in pulldown to mound velocity."

Will see Sunday. Our guy did 100 mph pulldown let week and will do mound velocity Sunday to test progress off mound.

Translated to 95 mph ss to 1b so will be interesting.

Pull downs, if implemented as part of a complete training program, are useful in pushing the body to reorganize new capacity to perform a specific mechanical function (throwing) in response to a greater load.  Done alone, a pull down is likely useless and potentially increasing risk of injury.  

The idea is to first build additional capacity in the form of strength, stability and mobility and then force the body to recruit as much of that new capacity as possible as quickly and efficiently as possible through placing a high load on the body and allowing the body to organize itself.

Additionally, the pull down also patterns intent and trains the mind and body to throw with intent without “muscling up”.

With all of that said, I don’t think coaches care at all about a pull down.  It’s a number that hints at overall capacity but is useless on its on.  Sending a coach a pull down velocity would be akin to sending them a 1 rep deadlift max.....yawn.....

@22and25 posted:

With all of that said, I don’t think coaches care at all about a pull down.  It’s a number that hints at overall capacity but is useless on its on.  Sending a coach a pull down velocity would be akin to sending them a 1 rep deadlift max.....yawn.....

A crow hop throw from the OF will show the velo potential for any player. When performing that kind of throw a player tends not to think - instead they rely on their athletic ability to create momentum and they use their lower half in delivering the throw. So coaches absolutely do care about velo from those throws. However it doesn’t necessarily mean that a player can transfer that velo to their delivery when on the mound. There shouldn’t be any difference in arm action. The major difference is in how the lower body is incorporated into the throw -or not. I have seen kids hit 95 from the OF but not be over 82 on the mound b/c they can’t figure out how to optimize getting their legs into the pitching delivery.

@adbono posted:

A crow hop throw from the OF will show the velo potential for any player. When performing that kind of throw a player tends not to think - instead they rely on their athletic ability to create momentum and they use their lower half in delivering the throw. So coaches absolutely do care about velo from those throws. However it doesn’t necessarily mean that a player can transfer that velo to their delivery when on the mound. There shouldn’t be any difference in arm action. The major difference is in how the lower body is incorporated into the throw -or not. I have seen kids hit 95 from the OF but not be over 82 on the mound b/c they can’t figure out how to optimize getting their legs into the pitching delivery.

Agreed, I was speaking specifically with my PO blinders on.  My 2022 is a PO and none of the schools he has spoken to have ever asked for a pull down velo.  

If that kid throwing 82 from the mound is a PO, no coach is going to care that he can pull down 95.

My kid tore his UCL doing a pull down. Im not blaming the pull-down for his tear, but this is when it ultimately happened.

My son is 2 years out of college.  He was regularly 88-90 and had a high of 93 during college. PO his first 3 seasons, had an elbow issue so was DH/1B his senior year....didn't throw 1 inning.  Never did pulldowns in college.   His friend is in the minors now and has been working with a local pitching guy during their off time due to Covid.   My son tagged along.  He had kept throwing some after college, mostly just with his friend but no workouts, etc.   His friend was doing pulldowns.  Son was sitting there watching.  No warmups, no stretching...just decided to try it.  on his 6th throw he was 101.  Not bad for an "old guy" who hadn't pitched for almost 3 years.

@22and25 posted:

Agreed, I was speaking specifically with my PO blinders on.  My 2022 is a PO and none of the schools he has spoken to have ever asked for a pull down velo.  

If that kid throwing 82 from the mound is a PO, no coach is going to care that he can pull down 95.

I disagree. If a kid can throw 95 w/ a crow hop from the OF it tells you that he has that potential from the mound. If he is only 82 from the mound that indicates that something in his delivery is killing his momentum and lowering his velo. A good pitching coach can figure it out in about 5 minutes. Then it’s a matter of whether or not the player can make the necessary adjustments. A kid like this would be considered a project at a lot of programs and they wouldn’t be interested. But a JuCo that has a good reputation for developing pitchers would be the perfect place for that kind of project.

@adbono posted:

I disagree. If a kid can throw 95 w/ a crow hop from the OF it tells you that he has that potential from the mound. If he is only 82 from the mound that indicates that something in his delivery is killing his momentum and lowering his velo. A good pitching coach can figure it out in about 5 minutes. Then it’s a matter of whether or not the player can make the necessary adjustments. A kid like this would be considered a project at a lot of programs and they wouldn’t be interested. But a JuCo that has a good reputation for developing pitchers would be the perfect place for that kind of project.

Exception noted, but in general most college coaches are not going to be interested until the kid closes that gap.  And if that kid doesn’t have a contact who can get him to those select few  JuCo coaches willing to take on a project he isn’t likely going very far despite his potential.  

What about the opposite kids.  The kid sitting mid to upper 80’s on the mound who pulls down 79.  Do you think he has a higher or lower ceiling on the mound than the 95 mph pull down kid throwing 82 from the mound?

@22and25 posted:

Exception noted, but in general most college coaches are not going to be interested until the kid closes that gap.  And if that kid doesn’t have a contact who can get him to those select few  JuCo coaches willing to take on a project he isn’t likely going very far despite his potential.  

What about the opposite kids.  The kid sitting mid to upper 80’s on the mound who pulls down 79.  Do you think he has a higher or lower ceiling on the mound than the 95 mph pull down kid throwing 82 from the mound?

Agree that many schools don’t want a project that they have to develop. They want polished kids that they can plug into the lineup. But there are a few places that will take a raw kid w/ potential and develop him. Not many but there are some. I have never seen a kid throw harder off the mound than from a crow hop in the OF. Can’t imagine that being the case with any player.

It happens, my son is one who throws harder from the mound than on the move.  Here is a link to another poster who’s son was the same.  For my son, working on strength and athleticism (sprints, jumps, etc..) has closed the gap significantly while also raising both his mound velo and pull down velo.

https://community.hsbaseballwe...27#29734904430209427

@22and25 posted:

It happens, my son is one who throws harder from the mound than on the move.  Here is a link to another poster who’s son was the same.  For my son, working on strength and athleticism (sprints, jumps, etc..) has closed the gap significantly while also raising both his mound velo and pull down velo.

https://community.hsbaseballwe...27#29734904430209427

I suppose it’s possible, but it defies all logic.

@adbono posted:

I suppose it’s possible, but it defies all logic.

For my son, there were some specific known factors but it’s not as uncommon as you might think.

@22and25 posted:

For my son, there were some specific known factors but it’s not as uncommon as you might think.

It should be very uncommon. A proper crow hop throw from the OF should generate the most possible momentum and should result in a higher velocity throw. If it doesn’t, I would argue that the crow hop throw isn’t being performed properly

@adbono posted:

It should be very uncommon. A proper crow hop throw from the OF should generate the most possible momentum and should result in a higher velocity throw. If it doesn’t, I would argue that the crow hop throw isn’t being performed properly

If momentum was the biggest factor in velocity every player of a given size and speed would throw the same speed, no?  Also, every kid would pull down significantly more than they throw from the mound because there is no way to build the same momentum in the distance of a single stride as with a running crow hop.  As momentum decreases, going from crow hop to the stretch on the mound, other factors such as sequencing, range of motion, etc contribute more to velocity.

This is at the heart of why most college coaches don’t care about pull down velocity.  I would argue that pull down velocity as a number has more diagnostic value than anything else.  It might indicate potential if higher than mound velo or might might indicate athletic deficiencies if lower than mound velo.  Key word is “might” and has to be taken with a lot of other data points specific to that player.

@22and25 posted:

If momentum was the biggest factor in velocity every player of a given size and speed would throw the same speed, no?  Also, every kid would pull down significantly more than they throw from the mound because there is no way to build the same momentum in the distance of a single stride as with a running crow hop.  As momentum decreases, going from crow hop to the stretch on the mound, other factors such as sequencing, range of motion, etc contribute more to velocity.

This is at the heart of why most college coaches don’t care about pull down velocity.  I would argue that pull down velocity as a number has more diagnostic value than anything else.  It might indicate potential if higher than mound velo or might might indicate athletic deficiencies if lower than mound velo.  Key word is “might” and has to be taken with a lot of other data points specific to that player.

IMO the ability to build momentum, and then transfer that momentum into the effective delivery of the baseball is what determines the Max velo of any pitcher. Body type and level of athleticism are major influencing factors in the process - so all kids of same size and speed would not have the same results. Arm action is also not the same with every pitcher and some are more efficient than others and that can also impact performance. But based on the theory of momentum pitching, a player should throw harder from the OF with a proper crow hop that he would off the mound. As a pitcher becomes more adept at using his lower body in the pitching delivery the gap between those numbers gets smaller.

“IMO the ability to build momentum, and then transfer that momentum into the effective delivery of the baseball is what determines the Max velo of any pitcher.”

Agreed, some are better at building momentum and some are better at transferring it.  Some are better at building it from a static start than they are at building it on the move.  

Also, very interesting conversation.  Thanks for indulging me.

Put me in the "pull downs are largely worthless" camp.  Do some coaches look at it?  I'm sure there are some.  Do a lot?  Not today - certainly not yet.  IMO, they're a flavor of the day that was cooked up by someone who stood to make money off inventing a new measurable no one else was offering.  When it becomes a standard measurable on PG, PBR, etc's sites, let's reconvene.

We have a local pitching instructor here that is well-respected and widely known.  His name got hot and it got hot quick.  Velocity training is his specialty and his services were so desired, that his schedule filled up.  Some parents were paying for it year round because it was the only way to guarantee to keep your spot.  I was actually tempted to buy into the hype.  At any rate, there was one specific moment when I immediately lost interest and my cynicism won out.  He tweeted out a short video of one of my son's peers throwing a pull down and hitting 90 mph on the radar. The caption read "Join me in welcoming Johnny Doe to the 90 mph club!"  Nope.  Sorry.  You're not in that club if you're not throwing 90 consistently.  By actually pitching.  My son's OF velo a year ago was 90 mph according to PBR.  Is my kid in the 90 mph club?  Of course not.  He doesn't pitch anymore, but if he did this year, my guess is that he'd be sitting 85-86.  In no universe is he near the 90 mph club.

But I digress.  That kid who supposedly entered the 90 mph club 2 years ago was sitting 81-82 when he actually pitched that season - on his high school JV squad.  Anyone know any 90 mph club members who can't make their high school varsity team?  The prosecution rests.

My kid is the 90s from the hop and 80s on the mound, but he is a catcher. I agree it a peek on velo potential and I am curious to know how much it is valued for prospective POs to recruiters. Sadly my son also injured his arm on a pull down (fractured elbow).

@2022NYC posted:

My kid is the 90s from the hop and 80s on the mound, but he is a catcher. I agree it a peek on velo potential and I am curious to know how much it is valued for prospective POs to recruiters. Sadly my son also injured his arm on a pull down (fractured elbow).

I also fractured my elbow. Mine required surgery. Did your sons require surgery?

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone else notice that most kids don't actually crow hop with pull downs. A proper crow hop is when the back foot hops through directly after the catch and allows an outfielder to not only get something on the ball, but more importantly get rid of it ASAP. I've always related this to a catcher's pop-time. The catcher can have the strongest arm, but if he can't transfer the ball very well guys are still going to run on him.

Taking a 13 choppy step running start and throwing a ball as hard as humanly possible as you do a front flip has disaster written all over it. FWIW, my arm hurts just watching it, and also the injury question is not IF, but WHEN....

The injury part is one of my main concerns along with the bad mechanics that it produces.  I know some of it relates but most does not from a full running throw to the mound.  I think it also produces disappointment for many kids when they say they throw 88 and when they get on the mound and only throw 78.  I can't imagine any high school coach caring and even fewer college coaches except it does show what can be reached but only after they start allowing pitchers to run and throw.

@2025prospect posted:

I also fractured my elbow. Mine required surgery. Did your sons require surgery?

He went in for a CT Scan last week and finds out on Monday.

I think coaches have mentioned online, in interviews, on @Josh Rudd (@JRudd_Scout) Quarantine Coaches, that they don't like or care to see them (injuries, running vs proper crow hop as @adbono mentioned). Some twitter fodder and something clubs can put out there to look/feel important at their facility. 

The other thing is if you're going to film this. Film it so you can see the damn camera. The videos are just horrible. It isn't that hard to get it all in frame and visible. Just saying....

They'd rather see you running a 60, MIF receiving and throws, OF with proper Crow, exit velo, swing from opposite side, pitching from front, side, and behind (again, get the crap in frame).