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159 replies

Pulling vs. oppo theory

ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
are you saying that great hitters absolutely HAVE to be homerun hitters?


Yes, that's what I'm saying....


Sorry, cannot agree with this, at least how it reads to me,at face value.
It looks like at least 1/2 of those with 3000 hits would not be classified as home run hitters:
Roberto Clemente September 30, 1972
Al Kaline September 24, 1974
Pete Rose May 5, 1978
Lou Brock August 13, 1979
Carl Yastrzemski September 12, 1979
Rod Carew August 4, 1985
Robin Yount September 9, 1992
George Brett September 30, 1992
Paul Molitor September 16, 1996
Tony Gwynn August 6, 1999
Wade Boggs August 7, 1999
Cal Ripken Jr. April 15, 2000
Rickey Henderson October 7, 2001
Craig Biggio.

We can throw Jeter, Mauer and Ichiro and quite a few others in there also.
Seems to me that studying video of guys like Bonds, Thome, Adrian Gonzalez and the like and suggesting one size fits all for hitting is a huge mistake.
From the time he was 15-16, Bonds was different than any hitter of his age in Northern CA, as well as most who were 4-5 years older.
Great hitting is as much mental as it is physical in college and Milb. Unless someone has the skills and talent of a Bonds, taking one size fits all approach in college and Milb creates a recipe of success...for the pitcher strength.
Great hitters work themselves into hitters counts more often than not.
They adjust to and beat scouting reports more often than not.
In college and Milb, great hitters don't miss pitches thrown into their strength very often.
In college and Milb, great hitters still hit .280 to .300 when it is a pitcher's count like 0-1; 1-2.
Few if any will ever do it like Bonds or Thome or Gonzalez. In my opinion, for those in high school and younger, they don't have the strength and skill to be able to emulate Bonds in any meaningful way from AB to AB.
One of the best discussions of mental and physical aspects of hitting that I have seen recently was that done on MLB TV with Joe Mauer and his approach/success with 2 strike counts. He was not talking about hitting home runs.

One of the best posts I've seen in the hitting forum. Bluedog - you are a snake-oil salesman - nothing more imho...

I saw the Mauer piece and it was outstanding. Approach is everything at the upper levels.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
I would agree that most all great hitters have HR power. However that doesn't always relate to a certain number of HRs.

....

So having the ability to hit for power and having a power approach can be two different things.

Another outstanding post. I keep seeing that term approach coming up.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
PG


I am not sure I would put thome on the same level as Boggs when it comes to overall hitting

Where do we rank Tony Oliva and a guy from my day " Mandrake the Magician" Don Mueller or how about Joe Morgan?

In my book a power hitter is not necessarily a great hitter--Carlos Pena is a present day example
P powertoallfields1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
Bluedog - you are a snake-oil salesman - nothing more imho...


Cleve, I know you can control your emotions better than that......

Hey Cleve, have you noticed how diluted the words, "great hitters" have become around here?....I'm waiting for someone to add Uecker to the list.... Big Grin



Blue,

Would you say that OPS numbers are a better indication of a "great hitter" than batting average? What would be the cut-off number for a "great hitter", IYO? Say, a OPS of 1 or above?
Y Yakyu10+ posts
quote:
Pitchers like to see hitters who hit opposite field.....They can't hurt 'em with the long ball....


That's generally true for light hitters who can only occasionally hit one out to the pull side. But a lot of true power hitters do hit a large percentage of their home runs to the opposite field (Ryan Howard, Alex Rodriguez, Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez, etc.).
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
Nobody taught 'em to do it...And, that's my point....Coaches who try to teach opposite field hitting are making a mistake with players....

Power is always an asset to hitters....As was said earlier in the thread, hitters should look to hit the ball hard....Their natural contact point should be left alone....Teach 'em to sequence their swing efficiently and let 'em hit....If they pull the ball, let 'em....If they hit gap to gap, let 'em....
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
Nobody taught 'em to do it...And, that's my point....Coaches who try to teach opposite field hitting are making a mistake with players....

Power is always an asset to hitters....As was said earlier in the thread, hitters should look to hit the ball hard....Their natural contact point should be left alone....Teach 'em to sequence their swing efficiently and let 'em hit....If they pull the ball, let 'em....If they hit gap to gap, let 'em....


I don't understand what you mean with the comment "Nobody taught 'em to do it..."

The leap from HS to college, from college to Milb, and each step up the ladder in Milb is a learning experience for nearly every hitter. Heck, when our son had 3AB's off Randy Johnson, he described each pitch as a learning experience.

Just this Spring, Ryan Howard talked about working with Barry Bonds on his approach, cutting down on strikeouts and hitting the ball where it was pitched, rather than pulling every pitch."

Here is part of that article:

"Howard said that during his work with Bonds, the former slugger told him the key to becoming a more consistent hitter was to find a comfort zone at the plate. Manuel has been after Howard to stand closer to the plate, and Thompson has encouraged him not to challenge the infield shift and try to hit the ball more to the opposite field. All of that advice seems to be working.

“He’s definitely staying on the ball much better,” Manuel said.

Said Howard, “My focus at the dish is just trying to hit the ball where it’s pitched.”

Hitting the ball is the key. If Howard is able to use the advice of Bonds, Manuel and/or Thompson to cut down on his massive strikeout total, there is no question it will help him become a more complete player."

I doubt Howard is the exception. His article was easy to find. In Milb, good hitting coaches constantly challenge good hitters with approach and adjustments. Good hitters take thousands of pitches in batting practice working on adjustments. Some work, some don't. Good hitters take the ones that work.
For Ryan Howard, it seems clear he was seeking advice on how to cut down on his "K" numbers. Hitting the ball where it was pitched, rather than pulling pitches regardless of location, was/is one of the approaches he was/is being taught.
Last edited by infielddad
S swingbuilder100+ posts
Driving the ball between 1b and 3b is key.

The great hitters are the ones who can produce runs.

The greatest hitters are the ones who can make adjustments with bat control and can advance runners by hitting behind a runner when its needed and can produce runs.

You will see speed, hit n run and versatile hitters more and more and more at the major league level.

The greatest hitters are the most versatile hitters.

Teaching your child to just pull will limit his chances...terribly.

If Bonds were hitting in the batting cage and I were to walk out behind the cage and say

"Hey Bonds, hit me one to the 3bman" he would do it. If I would say "hey Bonds, drive a ball for me at the SS" he would.

Adjustability and bat control are the ingredients of great hitters.

A MLB pitcher would much rather face a pull only hitter that gives the outter half of the plate away that makes no adjustments and hooks his barrel and hits groundball double plays to the pull side infielder.

Drives a ML manager crazy!

The true value of a GREAT/ GREATEST hitter is advancing runners and only making one out at a time.
Last edited by swingbuilder
td25td2510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
Mays and Aaron were pull hitters....So were Williams and Ruth....So was Bonds....People have always told pull hitters they should hit opposite field....Good thing they didn't listen...

You aren't a great hitter if you don't have power....Naming a bunch of decent hitters who were not great hitters won't cut it.....

The best hitters ever were pull hitters....You can slice it any way you want, but, the truth will always be....

And, that's why you're seeing a trend in MLB to pull pitches....Nobody likes to wear a dress and hit in MLB anymore......


During the 10 seconds it took me to read this post, I could think of 6 great hitters off the top of my head who weren't power hitters and weren't primarily pull hitters.... Ty Cobb, Ichiro, Tony Gywnn, Rod Carew, Pete Rose, Derek Jeter. You don't need to be a power hitter to be a great hitter....

Also, Barry Bonds wasn't just a pull hitter early in his career. I live in Pittsburgh, and I watched Bond's play a lot growing up. He hit a ton of HR's to CF and the opposite way. Its not until he got to SF and started doing roids that he turned primarily into a pull hitter (to take advantage of the shorter wall in RF).
Last edited by td25
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Sultan of Swat

I am not into the muscle thing--I look at hitting in a rather simple manner, which I have learned from my many years involved with the game

The is a lot more simple than you guys and girls want to make it

If you are not physically mature you cannot do what the physically mature athlete does

How do I know this??-- SIMPLE-- experience
S swingbuilder100+ posts
the young kids can have good mechnics to. its all relative.

No disrespect old fella.

When I was 18 I was required to go to a job information seminar. It was to help students make smart choices on career paths. Lots of adults were there as well.

I remember only one thing from the seminar. Content wise. The guy said "you people better get with computers and take any and all computer classes you can take. If you refuse to become efficent at computers you will have a difficult time as the world moves forward".
D Doughnutman1,000+ posts
So what is the opinion on why they play the shift on these hitters? If teams were worried about Howard and Ortiz going oppo they wouldn't be giving them such huge holes to hit it through IMO.

Edit. watching the dbacks against the phillies. Big shift for Howard. Runner on second 2 outs. A single scores the runner. The dbacks couldn't care less if he goes oppo. Def pull hitter.
Last edited by Doughnutman
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
Scouting reports, situation in the inning and game, and pitching location for each pitch and each AB, for each pitcher dictate by and large where the fielders are positioned.
It is hard to believe how sophisticated the scouting reports can be.
If they are going to pitch in, or even breaking balls away, that may result in a shift for certain "pull" hitters based on the tendency seen in scouting reports.
Fastballs away, and the hitter has shown he will look to hit the ball where it is pitched, then less shift for that situation.
If someone like Howard is pulling everything instead of hitting the ball where it is pitched, they may well shift on him and pitch him hard away, looking for him to try and pull a fastball away and ground out.
I don't know about the situation you are referencing, but many times you can see the shift in the infield and the outfield playing straight away, or close to straight away.
Last edited by infielddad
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Bases loaded 2 outs. They did the same thing and he didn't look good. Howard is not an oppo guy except on a rare occaision. I am sure if you asked him his choice would be to pull everything. Most power guys are pull.


Interesting observation considering the posts that started this thread.
As the pitching gets better and better, and scouting reports become part of the game, it is a very rare hitter who can consistently punish balls by trying to pull them, regardless of location.
I agree with you that power guys who do not hit for average are pull. That is because MLB pays $$$$ for power/HR's and they make ESPN. Reynolds with the D'backs is an example. Did you know he was not a regular starter in the lower levels of Milb?
I don't agree that power guys who hit for average are pull. There are not many any more.
Guys with that kind of power and approach, and who can be successful with it, are not very many. More than a few organizations would not tolerate that number of strikeouts. While we get to see the few guys like Reynolds and Howard and Dunn who can succeed with this type of approach, there are many, many in Milb/college who don't. We just never see them because they don't.
To try and advocate this approach for HS and younger hitters is a mistake, in my view. The game and how it is played is much different in HS and college than in MLB.
Y Yakyu10+ posts
quote:
Howard is not an oppo guy except on a rare occaision.


Not really. If you look at Howard's spray charts, you will see that most of his GROUND balls are pulled. That is why the infield shift is used. But his FLY balls do not show any pull tendency. In fact, Howard hits opposite field home runs at a higher percentage than just about any slugger in history.
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