Punishment Running

Punishment for what offense?  Onfield goofing off type stuff or off field personal issues?  I always liked running for infield type stuff - sometimes running the entire team so as to have the entire team responsible for policing teammates actions.  Can also work for things like academic laziness - folks forgot to turn in assignments (as opposed to a poor test score) and the team runs.  Probably also depends on the makeup of the team - team running will only work when there is some level of cohesion among the players - if zero cohesion that might makes things worse..

Dont necessarily have a major issue with it, don't like it right after a game though.  

I always want a team that runs to put pressure on the opponents. So we would always work hard at running.  People/players tend to improve the most at the things they most enjoy doing.  So we tried hard to to make our workouts and running drills as easy and enjoyable as possible.

 

So in our case "running" for punishment didn't exist.  That doesn't mean punishment didn't exist.

I think it’s a waste of time that could be spent on something to improve baseball skills.  

Thanks for the input. I'm thinking more of things like late to practice, goofing off, not focused, things like that. 

The best and most effective punishment is to take something away that they want. This could include not starting, not playing, not dressing, suspension, etc.

 

I would never use one of the actual skills and turn it into a punishment.  Kids like to hit, but what if the punishment was to keep hitting until your hands are bleeding and you can hardly stand up.  This could create many bad habits because of fatigue changing the best swing.  Worse than that, if it happened very often it could cause a dislike for hitting by associating hitting with pain and punishment.

 

Hitting is an obvious important skill in baseball, Running is an obvious important skill in baseball.  Why use an important skill as a form of punishment?  Those skills need to be practiced, not used for punishment! IMO

 

Just to be clear, I understand that many great successful coaches use running as punishment.  I still wouldn't do it.

We rarely run as punishment, although it is used occasionally. We try and develop the mindset the "winners run," and using it as punishment can take away from that. 

 

Our most effective tool is a "work crew" duty, where kids perform some type of manual labor around the field. This is most effective when they have to do it on Fridays when we have coach pitch scrimmages. 

 

John Wooden said that the most effective tool for punishment is the bench. In the offseason that is difficult, but we've found this works well. What every kid wants is to play, so taking that away from them is key. Some don't mind running, as long as they get to play.

 

Again, I'm not against running everyone sometimes, it can be very effective. But over time will lose it's impact if that's all you do.

I never liked this approach...

Running should be used as a development tool and not something the player grows to hate...

They should love to run, because it will get them better...

During fall ball this year I noticed two pitchers running during the entire scrimmage, about three hours. When I asked later what was up with that, I was told that they missed the 7:00 AM lift. They were told to run from the field to the weight room, which is up hill by the way, complete one set of their lift and run back to the field.This was repeated until their sets were completed. When they finished & returned, they rans poles until the scrimmage was over.

Agree or not, but I'm sure that no one will miss a lift again.

Hate running as punishment.  Never waste practice time.  Ut their playing time if there is a serious issue.

A good punishment is have them sit in the dugout doing nothing while the entire team is working hard at practice.  Ostracism.   Boring and humiliating.  Very effective.

This is at the collegiate level, practice time was not wasted, they had lots of practice time running.

Don't see that working at HS or college level. 

I can understand your skepticism, but it works bigtime at the HS level. " Hey, you're slacking,you're polluting our team, go sit in the dugout. " The bad apple is removed. 

Sit the bench

 

agree, don't like when teachers use sitting out at recess and read a book either. Reading is not a punishment.  Would rather see kids walk perimeter of playground, at least they r getting exercise, but not playing w others.

Keep talking solutions, guys.  We had a thread like this a while back and there were a few decent ideas but it really is difficult.  I'd love to hear more "better options".

 

2020dad, the problem is that, so many times, the offender IS wasting practice time with whatever the offense was... by screwing around or being disrespectful and not listening or distracting others or being late.  So what is your favorite solution?

 

Sometimes "hit the bench" doesn't work either because we are trying to practice with the pieces in the right place to maximize things and when one of the pieces is on the bench, we are not getting better.  And for those of us with smallish rosters, we need every extra guy for any sort of situational stuff.  Kids generally like to hit and play games most.  But again, if they don't hit, they aren't getting any better.  If they are not in the inter-squads, we're short another player.

 

Also, one could make the same argument about field prep.  We want our boys to take pride in their field and want to keep it up, not think of it as punishment.

 

I totally understand and agree largely with the argument against running but at least with running, they and the team are benefiting physically.

 

I'm all ears for more ideas.  The storage shed can only be cleaned out so many times.

 

PS - I will add (to eliminate this as the solution) that setting the proper expectations and tone and having the proper respect from the beginning is crucial and eliminates the majority of these issues and we do that but you still get those moments...

Never had a problem with it if done correctly as a reinforcement tool. Never like coaches that did it just because they were ticked.

I also never understood the whole but if you run for punishment they won't like running argument. I loved running. I ran a mile or two all the time for fun. If was made to run 1 lap for punishment I hateded it but then the next day would run ten times that far for enjoyment. It's not that hard to separate running because you screwed up and running for relaxation or for training.

My son is a D1 freshman. A couple of months back the coach had asked the players to show up on a Friday clean shaven. A few players forgot or disregared his request. The team was supposed to have a free weekend off from weights that weekend. The team had to show up Saturday. They ran, and ran, and ran. most of the guys threw up. 

Punishing the entire team for the sin of one or a few is gross misuse of a behavioral learning technique.

Cabbage, I agree with your premise.  When I was a head coach I always told my staff they were welcome to disagree with anything we do so long as they offered an idea or suggestion.  Otherwise its just a complaint.  Problem.with these hypotheticals is we never have enough information.  But none the less since your request is a fair one here goes:  First you have to establish what kind of screwing around are we talking about?  A certain amount of screwing around is part of baseball - it is a unique sport.  But more importantly you need to look in the mirror and ask how well organized are your practices?  An ounce if prevention is worth a pound of cure!  Even though every baseball coach I know 'says' they want everyone involved at practice I still see many of them with way too many kids standing around.  Kids standing around leads to too much boredom and temptation to liven things up in their own way.  But lets say your practice is crisp and well organized and a kid just won't stop screwing around and you have obviously first tried talking to him about it.  I just don't recall many of these situations.  But if this is really the case is this really a player you want?  I would send him home if it was off season workout.  If it were in season I would stick with bench time.  I understand small rosters and the other kids being hurt by his absence but it is HIM doing it to his teammates not you.  And to be honest if I were doing all I reasonably can as a coach and he just won't change his behavior I am removing him from the team permanently.   If it negatively impacts our record or we have to stretch to bring somebody up to replace him so be it.  Now if we are talking about a kid already playing up maybe you send him down first.  Again this is a rough draft.  We would all need a specific to give a true hard and fast answer.

       
       
One thing I can say for sure - this is idiotic

Then you you are the exception. If you've coached you know that this is pretty uncommon.

If you run kids and you win, you are respected disciplinarian.  If you run kids and lose, your a hard a$$ that knows zero about baseball. Right or wrong, that is the way it works.  Take a look at Joe Madden with the Cubs.  From the outside looking in, he appears to run a loose ship and does some off the wall stuff, but he wins games so some consider him to be a baseball genius.  If he were doing the same thing and playing sub .500 ball, the perception would be significantly different.    

Orrrrrrrrrrr it teaches that everyone is accountable for the team.  If one person fails then the whole team can fail.  It teaches leadership in players have talks with the offending player to let them know what they are doing is no longer acceptable.

 

I've used the run until you puke method (nobody actually puked but they got the message).  I've used the "sit the bench", "kick out of practice" and many other things to punish, shape or change behavior.  Some will agree with what I've done and some will disagree.  End of the day unless you are physically or mentally abusing players there is nothing wrong with it.  The thing that makes it work and makes it beneficial is what you teach with it.  You explain what / why they are being punished, make the connection that this behavior is not acceptable and if they do the right things then good things happen.  If you don't follow up with some type of praise / reward then you're wasting your time.  I'm not saying turn it into snowcones and everyone gets a trophy praise but a simple comment "hey Johnny that's what I'm looking for - great job" in front of the team will go a long way.

 

Here's how I handle situations and maybe you might get something from it or maybe you think I'm the worst coach in the history of sports.  That's up to you.

 

Whether it's an individual or a group or the whole team I start out with talking.  I pull the kid off to the side and tell them "I don't like THIS".  By doing it this way there is no miscommunication.  They know I'm not happy about whatever it is.  Now we're classifying behavior.  Then I follow up with "you need to make sure it doesn't happen again".  Now I'm turning it into a choice they are making.  It eliminates the "special situation" and teaches accountability.  If a kid is showing up late then know it's a choice because if they are responsible they will contact me ahead of time.  Now they are excused instead of tardy.  If it's a group or whole team I do the same thing.  Let's say we are doing groundballs working on double plays and balls are flying all over the place.  I stop the drill and pull everyone in.  I ask them "if you were to grade our performance on this drill in terms of giving ourselves a chance to win or lose what would it be".  This forces them to self-reflect and be honest with their performance.  A few will step up and say "we are going to lose coach" and this is now accountability on their part to own their performance.  I tell them they are capable of doing this drill because they are good players.  They are failing because they are not focusing.  Then I tell them to take a few seconds to get their focus and get back to their positions.  We are starting the drill over and we will choose to be focus and be successful. 

 

I'm a HUGE fan of making everything they do into a choice.  For whatever reason we are turning society into victims.  There are excuses everywhere for everything and it leads to failure.  I use this in the classroom as well.  Teens are human beings and if you talk to them like you want to be talked to they will respond.  But some adults go into rip a new hole mode and they will become defensive when you try to talk to them.  I tell them I'm not yelling at them and just want to talk.  This will calm them down and behavior changes.

 

So that's the first level of dealing with something.  If the behavior continues then we will go to a second level and it's probably going to be running.  I agree with everyone that running should be a facet of the game and not minimized but end of the day most kids don't like running.  This is why drills have to be up tempo to get conditioning in but realistically you still need to run at end of practice.  It got to the point I didn't have to supervise running.  When practice was wrapping up the seniors would ask - distance, sprints or bases - I would tell them which one and they did it.  

 

If I have to run them as a punishment it's going to be after practice and it's going to be miserable on purpose.  Before we start I tell them "you did THIS again and we had a discussion that it wasn't acceptable.  You chose to do this again and there are consequences for it.  That's why we are doing this".  Then I run them until they trip over their tongue.  When they are finished I ask if they have learned anything.  Typically they say not to do whatever behavior it is.  Then I ask what can they do to make sure that behavior doesn't happen again.  They tell me then I sum it all up - unacceptable behavior, choice, punishment, unacceptable behavior again, consequences and alternative choices.  Maybe they don't get it because they are mad at me for making them run.  If that's the case then they probably won't ever get it and that's on them.

 

Same thing if I punish the team or group - behavior, choice, punishment, behavior and alternative choices - but I'm not wasting practice time.  Because if running them takes 10 minutes then we are extending practice 10 minutes.  Another teaching moment because just because you're having a bad day doesn't mean you get out of work.  We're still going to work. 

 

If that doesn't work then I go with sitting.  I agree with whoever said it above if that kid is the best at that position and we're putting something in then I need that kid there.  So I'm going to let not playing / practicing be a last resort.  It may be set up ahead of time or may be in the middle of a drill.  I'll tell them to go home and not come back until they want to act right - practice good behaviors.  I rarely ever say you're suspended 2 practices.  They want to miss 3 practices that's on them but they won't be starting or playing anytime soon.  That is a consequence of bad behavior which is a choice.  All the responsibility goes back on them and it's about communicating the WHY they are being punished.

 

If that doesn't work then I kick them off the team.  They got 3 chances to fix their behavior and they made the choice not to.  I like to say I've never kicked a kid off the team and I can make that case but let's face it - I told them they were done.  Vast majority of kids get it the first time when being talked to.  It may not work for everyone but at least you tried.  I still get mad and yell at them but when I'm trying to teach a behavior this is how I do it.

Agree with a lot of this.  Let's face it - no matter how great your practice plan is there will be some standing around time so do everything you can to plan to minimize it.  But this is where you teach mature fun versus immature fun.  There are times and places for horsing around.  After practice when the work is over is time for immature fun.  As long as it's not dangerous there is nothing wrong with what they do.  Mature fun is just enjoying being around the game and learning it.  This helps to solve the dead time horsing around.  

 

Does it still happen?  Yeah no doubt but this is where you talk to them.  Maybe you can talk to them 3 or 4 times before running them but teaching at every phase needs to happen.

Our college team was scheduled to leave at 7:30 AM.  All players needed to be in the bus  before 7:30 AM.  We had a rule that clearly stated, anyone late for the bus without an excuse would be left at home.  One of our very best players was not on the bus at 7:30, we saw him walking down the sidewalk towards the bus. I had the driver open the door and told the player he was late. He said, sorry coach I didn't wake up in time. I told the bus driver to close the door and take off. We left him at home.

 

A couple of our players complained saying we should have let him on the bus.  Maybe we should have, but we never had a player ever again be late for the bus. The player we left behind that day is now a good friend and very successful businessman.  He told me that his teammates talked to him when we returned that night, telling him how unfair they thought this was.  He told them he was kind of pissed off, but he will never be late for the bus again. He never was! There was no more discipline handed out. We won a double header that day without him. The next year he was our captain.

 

The rule and the penalty were spelled out ahead of time.

Ryan Mallett should hear this story.

I think this is a great example of how rules are for the whole team. I am not a big believer of different rules depending on how good you are.  Equal punishment depending on the offense to all.  Prime example is the Dallas Cowboys.  The way they have handled punishment this year to guys like Dez Bryant & Greg Hardy has been atrocious.  I can't imagine how their locker room is right now.

I have also believed that there is a benefit to running as a punishment.  Most kids don't like to run, so I believe it is effective.  If a particular kid is constantly making the team have to run, the team will self police, and that can be a positive.  My perspective comes from coaching youth football, not from baseball though.

We run a triangle, ripped off from the 1 pitch Warrior guy.  Down to Right Field foul poll across to left field and through Home Plate in 1 minute 15.  Kids hate em and it doesn't take a great deal of time.  It sends enough of a message.

       
       
I don't think it's the exception at all. In 16 years of playing sports and over 20 years of coaching over 1,000 kids from 10 to 18 over 5 different sports I've never seen one, not one player that went from liking running to hating running because of punishment running. I've seen ones that hate running period but never one that converted. It's a BS illogical argument used by those opposed to it period. Now that doesn't mean every coach should do it. If a coach doesn't understand it it will be a waste of time.

Ok. BS Illogical argument. Sorry I don't understand it. Thanks.

I don't have a problem with "focus" running.  IE, infield/round the horn has lots of missed, dropped balls, just general sloppiness.  No problem with the team sprinting to a pole and back, get a little talk to, then restart the infield.

 

And no problem with making the entire team run.  Pretty sure when they are out of coaches ear range, some of the leaders say something.

 

 

 

When did the others complain? It's not a democracy. If before bus left I would have asked " Who wants to join him"? 

sons coach did same thing to player on his team. No one dared say a word to coach, they all knew he meant business and no one was ever late again. 

playball2011,

 

We didn't have a rule saying players couldn't disagree with the coach.

 

In fact, we actually had a sign baserunners and hitters could give to the coach when they disagreed with the coaches signal.

 

A quick and somewhat embarrassing story.

 

I was coaching 3B and gave our hitter the squeeze sign. He returned the disagree sign. I thought about it for a second and put the squeeze back on.  He once again returned the disagree sign.  

 

At this point I knew something was wrong, so I called time out to talk to the hitter.  He said coach you really want me to bunt with two out?  I said Oh shit! There's two outs? 

 

So the player saved the old coach from looking like an idiot. Sometimes the player is right, sometimes the coach is wrong.  I never wanted a player that was afraid to speak up.  And I loved players that stuck up for their team mates.  

 

Is there such a thing as a coach that never makes a mistake?

       
       
Oh lord that's hillarious. I did the same thing a few years back and to make it worse it wasn't a close game so I really wasn't paying attention and talking to the other coach. I got the idea to work on a squeeze after the runner on second stole third. So to make it worse not only were there two outs but two strikes. I thought the kid was going to have a stroke shaking his head no when I gave him the signal. Hahaha I feel so much better knowing I'm not the only one to do that.

Running is an important part of development. It's not punishment. I would say to kids, "When you don't see your name in the lineup think back to this moment." It brought them back to focus quickly.

We actually won a ball game my senior year of high school by stealing home on consecutive 2 out, 2 strike pitches... I remember it well... I was the batter and I wasn't going to hit the ball anyway! lol