Purdue Camp - New and Different

I have to say Michigan's field is way better. Just my opinion.

Mom,

Were there coaches from other colleges or universities there to help run the camp or doing scouting?

Have to agree that Purdue does indeed have a nice ballyard.

Wasn't there... But heard from a parent who was that Purdue had "over-recruited" and had to cut 5 kids. Hope the ones getting cut still have options..

Are we talking five freshmen who just showed up on campus ready to play fall ball?

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
The Purdue baseball field is one of the nicest in the Big Ten Conference.

quote:

Originally posted by baseball1507:
I have to say Michigan's field is way better. Just my opinion.

Mediumpappi just played at University of Illinois this weekend. Field turf. Never played on that before and he really liked it.

The hops were true, sliding was very easy. It seemed to radiate the heat quite a bit though. Upper 80s and even low 90s this weekend.

The field just doesn't look quite right without dirt and grass but overall it was a nice field to play on. They claim it can take 7" of rain in an hour and still play. That would be impressive.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
They claim it can take 7" of rain in an hour and still play. That would be impressive.

Navy has a field turf field and our first game was delayed twice by rain, the second time was a real gully washer. We played on the field 1 hour after the rain stopped and the field was perfect. Pretty impressive.

Hopperhop,

Have been at a past Purdue camp. As a general rule, when a camp is at a D1 college, they do not have other coaches from comparable D1 schools there to help. There may be JUCO or D 111 coaches helping.

They don't generally want to provide coaches they compete with on the field and recruiting wise to have access or looks at players they may "discover" or have an interest in. There are some exceptions such as the Stanford camp, which is truly unique, and national in scope.

Also, these camps are usually as much about revenue and generating income for the assistants and the program, as they are about evaluating talent.

At the Purdue camp, Wabash College and Valpo had coaches. Also at least one other school was present, although I am not sure of the school name.

Coach Allen acknowledged in his remarks to players that five players were going to get cut, but I believe that his point was that it was a roster cut to get from 40 players to 35 players and that player grades, work ethic, and talent are being evaluated throughout the four years and that just making the team in the freshman year did not guarantee a player a spot on the team for four years. He said small differences separate players and it can be the smallest thing that will have a coach deciding on one player over another.

He said projectibility was not an exact science and that he often sees players who Purdue does not go after then excelling in another conference. He told players and parents that the reality is that every school is trying to get better and to win a championship and players are constantly under scrutiny.

The tournament at U of Louisville this weekend had Louisville, Kansas State, Oklahoma State, Bradley, Southern Illinois Carbondale, Michigan State, U of Cinncinnati, Eastern and Western Kentucky and other colleges and jucos there which I couldn't recognize.

Why couldnt you recognize them ?

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:

Looks really good after contact!

Thank you Mrs. Dolphin for answering that one in my absence. Or should I address you as Dolpherina? Or Dolphinia, perhaps? My concern here is that you can bet your bottom dollar that some kids that attended that camp were hoping there might be a spot for them, and then found out AFTER the event that there really wasn't much hope. Unless they really found a stud and then booted another kid from the roster... I guess you would expect that when you commit to a team, and they accept that commitment, that they wouldn't boot you so quickly... There are other teams out there that have a reputation of over-recruiting, and it's not really a good label for the program. All you can tell the kids is that if this flight is over-booked, there is another one coming along shortly. Right?

Isnt purdue known for going after the juco players ? I would think that would also have to affect their recruiting ?

With all due respect, Coach Allen's references about cutting the roster from 40 to 35 players in the coming weeks were not related to Purdue's recuitment efforts toward the Class of 2009.

His remarks were indicative of how players are being evaluated throughout their four years on a D-I baseball team. Players have got to work hard, because the competition for very limited roster spots keeps on coming. Sometimes, it comes down to separating players based upon grades, their work ethic as well as the success on the field. A lot of factors impact coaches decisions of how long a player remains on the squad.

A quick review of rosters indicates that very few players remain on a varisty baseball squad all four years.

"With all due respect, Coach Allen's references about cutting the roster from 40 to 35 players in the coming weeks were not related to Purdue's recuitment efforts toward the Class of 2009."

That is how it was relayed to me by two parents in attendance. Please accept my apologies if my information is inaccurate. Niceties aside, I find it hard to believe that the coaching staff would tell a group of possible recruits (and evidently their moms) that they were about to give five returning players their walking papers. No matter what spin you put on it, it was probably best unsaid. Not everyone perceived it as a warm-and-fuzzy motivational speech.

quote:

Originally posted by Tuzigoot

Looks really good after contact!

Thanks. The pre-contact and the post-contact all looked good this weekend. It was the actual contact that struggled.

He can't wait to hit the field again this weekend to work on that!

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
A quick review of rosters indicates that very few players remain on a varisty baseball squad all four years.

What review was that? Most college rosters I see have between 5 and 8 seniors. With recruiting classes averaging 7 to 12 players, that would be over half, not "very few" as you have stated.

Some of those 5 to 8 seniors that you are counting may be coming from Jucos or transfers. Therefore, they would not have been on the roster all four years like Mom said.

The reality is that very few ballplayers complete all four years on the varsity squad. Nothing warm and fuzzy about that. It just is what it is. Competition exists in business, Hollywood and college baseball too. Coaches are always on the lookout for new up and coming talent and it is an up or out mentality. So you have got to get better or it is the end of the road.

The competition to remain playing collegiate baseball is intense and a variety of factors bring the game to an eventual close for almost everyone in the game. Reality can be a bitter pill to swallow.

College can be tough enough with just the school work, not to mention all of the outside influences on a kid living away from home for the first time. There are a lot of obstacles to overcome.

I would think most college coaches are looking for guys that will be there 4 years since the APR is very important. Too many guys staying 1 or 2 years can cost you scholarships.

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
The reality is that very few ballplayers complete all four years on the varsity squad.

That's twice you've stated that as fact. Please tell us the source of this factual information.

Dolphin MOM AKA A MALE

You are totally off base with that statement!!!

Michigan State is building a new baseball stadium on campus that is supposed to be ready next spring.

Once a ballplayer hits college the yearly survival rate for baseball players is not a guaranteed certainty. Few baseball scholarships are guaranteed and most are renewable at the discretion of the program and the majority of players do not even receive a partial baseball scholarship.

The key is getting past the freshman year and then the probability of playing at least one more year increases. Freshman ballplayers are scrutinized carefully for evidence of their ability to succeed. Projecting the future success of a ball player is not an exact science and many are weeded out. The probability of survivability for a college baseball player to play all four years is greater than 50%, but less than 75%. Some players fail to meet expectations, some get injured, some become academically ineligible and some actually leave school or drop out.

That is why parents and players should realisticly
evaluate athletic ability and academic inspirations
objectively. What is worse than putting a young man at an collegiate institution who might have to lose a "spot" due to class room pressure? More importantly,it would be most disappointing for a young man to dismiss academic goals to secure a "spot" on the team. Chose wisely.

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
Once a ballplayer hits college the yearly survival rate for baseball players is not a guaranteed certainty. Few baseball scholarships are guaranteed and most are renewable at the discretion of the program and the majority of players do not even receive a partial baseball scholarship.

The key is getting past the freshman year and then the probability of playing at least one more year increases. Freshman ballplayers are scrutinized carefully for evidence of their ability to succeed. Projecting the future success of a ball player is not an exact science and many are weeded out. The probability of survivability for a college baseball player to play all four years is greater than 50%, but less than 75%. Some players fail to meet expectations, some get injured, some become academically ineligible and some actually leave school or drop out.

You throw this stuff around like you have some background and statistical data to back you up. What is the source of your information?

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
...and the majority of players do not even receive a partial baseball scholarship.

For example, what is the source of this that you throw out there as if it were stipulated fact?

DolphinMom- these are very interesting conclusions you have reached. In my opinion you have posted alot of erronous information in this post. For any newcomers to this site they would have a very jaded view of college baseball and it's coaches. Your "statistics" seem way off base.

If you look at the retention rate of most colleges (except Ivy's) very few have 100% retention at 4 years. With the NCAA trying to raise graduation rates in athletics hopefully we will see a higher retention rate. Most college coaches are very good at what they do, including recruiting. Hopefully they are good judges of talent and character in the players they choose. Obviously the player has to step up and work really hard to earn a starting spot year after year.

If D1 programs are fully funded than most of the players are on a percentage of an athletic scholarship. Obviously this varies dependent upon the program but must be atleast 25% as of '08.

Your information is misleading for most but maybe this is what you have encountered in a small number of cases. Perhaps you could preface your remarks with something to that effect???

lsc59, I couldn't agree more, and it only took you a few words.

I have spent the summer talking and listening to a variety of sources about the college recruiting process. It has been an eye opening experience learning about the process and my opinions have been formed by speaking with many coaches and players and former players as well as others who are, "in the know." My conclusions are simply that as a player you had better keep working hard, because their are no guarantees to continuing your high school baseball playing career.

It is also unfortunate that there is no roadmap for parents or high school students on navigating a rather unclear path to playing baseball and going to college. In fact almost nothing has been written about the subject. At the same time there is no set approach to how this works out in the end. As they say, everyone's situation is unique and different.

The college recruiting process for a baseball player is one that is most akin to a job search. How do I know? I have been in executive search for nearly 15 years and prior to that I was a college recruiter for an international consulting firm that very much believed in the up or out philosophy which is pretty much how collegiate baseball works. The process I conducted as a corporate recruiter, where I was the one making decisions that were based upon my projections of where I thought a student would be 3-5-10 years down the road in their career is very much like the one I am observing as a parent of a baseball player.

There is nothing wrong with the process, it just is what it is. I am also not at all jaded on the process. The process is time consuming and has been a lot of fun. At the same time it is a lot of work for a player and the parents who really need to act as a support network.

There is no getting around that baseball scholarship money is strictly limited. With only 11.7 full scholarships for a D-I program and 9 full scholarships for a D-II program, each coach decides how to award and divide the allotment. Also scholarships are not just earmarked for incoming freshman, but are used for all players on a team which may include as many as 35 sophomores, juniors, seniors and fifth year athletes. If you begin to do the math it becomes clear that many ball players do not receive even a partial baseball scholarship.

Consequently, playing baseball and going to school for free on a full ride scholarship offer is not a likely scenario for most. That is where academic scholarship money and loans and family money have to come into play.

I tried to turn this thread into a discussion about the quality of Big 10 fields but I guess we've gone right back to the same old fight.

Maybe you guys could trade personal e-mail addresses? This is getting old.

Mark/Dolphin Mom,

Please stop. You don't know how college baseball works and really have no idea about the composition of a college baseball team or scholarship division.

Statements like:

quote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Mom:
If you begin to do the math it becomes clear that many ball players do not receive even a partial baseball scholarship.

Prove that you are ignorant about the situation and lack the requisite experience to back your theories.

I actually agree with Dolphin. I see a ton of parents and kids that the first question they ask a collegiate player is "are you on scholarship" There's a ton of players on a team that aren't scholarship players. Some teams have upwards of 40 players, even if you split the 11 in half that's roughly half the players getting no money. Now with the new rules you'll see colleges cutting down the roster and spreading the money out all over. He's also right that alot of the money is already taking up in upper classmen so a freshman might have to bite the bullet and choose a school he likes that won't have money for him for a few years. I always thought it was a bad idea to go somewhere just cause they are giving you money, you should go somewhere your comfortable. Getting money for baseball is very very hard and kids and parents should play for the love of the game. Playing in college without having money doesn't mean the school doesn't want you, everyone earns their playing time based on who beats who out. Sometimes I think parents just like saying their kid got a scholarship just to brag, even though that kid might not even be getting a ton of playing time. I don't know how you can say that the statement he made was off base. I'd say there's close to 10 players maybe more that have no money and are on the collegiate team.

Nails,
A 50% scholarship is generally as big as it gets, with an occasional exception. That threshold is usually given to 6 to 7 pitchers and one catcher. Middle infielders are the next rung on the scholarship ladder garnering anywhere between 25% and 50%, usually with two to three. 50% at that position is not rare, but not common either. Corner infielders are next with outfielders bringing up the rear.

As to 40 players on the roster, that has gone by the same wayside as the "book money scholarship" where players were given a $1000 scholarship. in the past, teams like Arkansas might carry as many as 50 players on their roster with nearly all of them having some form of scholarhsip. So if you're going on past data, even more players were on scholarship, just less money. That landscape has changed this year though.

So, if we do the math, as some like to say...
7 pitchers at 50% = 3.5 Scholarships
3 MI's at 33% avg = 1 scholarship
1 Catcher at 50% = .5 Scholarships
3 corner infielders @ 25% = .75 Scholarships
5 outfielders @ .25% scholarships = 1.25 scholarships

That's 19 players on scholarship, over half the allowed 35 rostered players and only 7 scholarhips used with 4.7 scholarships available to another 11 players this year, 8 players next year (this year you may carry 30 scholarshiped players and that number reduces to 27 next year)

Doing the math, that means that every eligible player left this year could get around a 40% scholarship to bring it up to 30 scholarshipped players.

I will give you that not all programs are fully funded for scholarhships, but latest data shows well over half are.

So, the assumptions about "many" or "close to 10" players have no scholarship money is inaccurate and uninformed.

CPLZ

Where are you getting these numbers from ? ( genuine question ..not sarcastic )

The best source of information on this matter would be from a D1 college coach or better yet a few different D1 college coaches. Or take a poll from each player of a few different college rosters to find out what % they are receiving . That would give a more accurate reading and take some of this guesswork and speculation out of the equation .

It is a variety of sources that include collegiate and HS coaches, former and current college players and parents, Baseball America, Rivals.com, Collegiate Baseball magazine.

How the positions are prioritized is pretty much common knowledge.

Although there would be some slight variance of opinion with those numbers among informed people, these are the numbers that are close to what most people agree on. It's the former players and their parents that really seem to have a grasp on who got what and are the most forthcoming. There doesn't seem to be much ego or bragging involved and they give a pretty clear picture of the scholarship landscape.

In the past, it was quite common for programs to offer kids "book money scholarships". Then they could sign the kid to an NLI, lock him up, and then essentially hold fall tryouts with nearly everyone there on some form of scholarship. The coaches would tell the kids that if they panned out, there'd be more to come next year. It wasn't a lie, they'd run the kids that they wanted to cut out of the program, get their scholarship money back next year, and give a bigger slice to the kid that made good. It was one of the reasons the NCAA went to the 25% minimum scholarship threshold, 35 man roster, and capped the number of scholarshipped players at 30 this year and 27 next year.

I understand how the Scholly money is generally prioritized by position . I just believe that there are more exceptions to this basic formula than people are led to believe .

Sully,
You could be correct. However in discussions with people "in the know", this general formula doesn't give rise to much debate. That being said, I doubt many D1 programs follow identical formulas, so the exceptions could vary widely.

One thing that muddies the waters when talking about scholarship dollars and percentages, is when academic and athletic aid are mixed. I've heard (mostly parents) say, "Junior is on a full ride". Well, Junior might be, but chances are overwhelming that it isn't all baseball money.

We even had one coach tell us during the official visit that he was offering my son an 80% scholarship. It was, but only 50% of it was baseball money. So the scholarship roadmap can get a little blurry, and sometimes its not always the player or parent that sends the mixed signals.

The whole academic scholarship issue is a balancing act for coaches. Their are grants and scholarships available to players that because the player doesn't meet the NCAA minimum threshold, would be counted as athletic aid against the 11.7 if the player accepted it along with athletic aid. It is not uncommon for coaches to lay out the aid package to the recruit as a total academic package because it totals more than the baseball package he could offer and won't count against his 11.7. This essentially makes the player a recruited walk on. It also frees up more of the 11.7 for the exceptions you brought up.