Push or pull?

http://www.thecompletepitcher...._pitching_rubber.htm

http://www.pitching.com/articl...-push-off-the-rubber

Neither

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Neither

That was always my understanding. I was told by a pitching coach, that neither term should ever be used when teaching correct mechanics.

I posted that above because there are many different theories, and I was curious as to what others would say, but I don't think there is supposed to be a push or a pull.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
That was always my understanding. I was told by a pitching coach, that neither term should ever be used when teaching correct mechanics.

I posted that above because there are many different theories, and I was curious as to what others would say, but I don't think there is supposed to be a push or a pull.

Interesting. I don’t know what kind of credentials the coach you talked to had, but the fellow I was talking to was a ML PC and who’s pitchers saw 4 WS’s in 12 season under his tutelage. And while different theories are always interesting to hear, I tend to give a lot of weight to someone who’s proven they know what they’re doing while teaching at the highest level of the game.

But I am curious about something. If that fellow doesn’t think either term should “ever” be used, how does he describe that particular action? I’m sure he must have some description for it.

I actually asked him that question many years ago because of discussion here. My son doesn't "push" off the rubber (you can see his video in the topic
pitching mechanics and video). In fact if you look at Rivera (next to him) he is not even on the rubber. He did tell me he doesn't use that language because that sets up thinking as to what one should or shouldn't do. Sounded good to me after I asked son what he did and he said, "I have no idea I never thought about it". If you had read the articles you would see in one it was mentioned about how you instruct and language used.

Isn't the rubber just supposed to be there as the legal starting distance point for pitchers, not to push or pull off of? And I have even heard that the ball is illegally thrown if the foot is off of it. Is that true?

No problem in mentioning who it was, son's pitching coach from college now the head baseball coach and pitching coach at UF, Kevin O'Sullivan. Can you name the guy you are refering to?

And what did he say? Why would you have to ask us if you already had the answer from a ML PC (former).

The foot is pulled off because of the forces generated by the stride and the subsequent hip rotation. If the pitcher doesn't stride 100% of his height (which isn't uncommon), he'll get pulled off of the rubber by the rotational forces. If he does stride 100% of his height, the stride pulls him off.

Stats, at what point in the delivery are you talking about?

My own take on this subject is that one shouldn't stress "pushing" off from the mound. I think most of it comes from a false belief that pushing harder increases forward body velocity and thus faster ball velocity out of the hand. But, when one really thinks about it and breaks everything down, the stride leg is the stopper or brace. So, any forward motion of the body has to thus be stopped at foot plant in order to release the ball. If one realizes that, then it also becomes obvious that no matter how slow or hard one comes off the mound, the arm itself catapulting the ball will always have the same relative velocity which doesn't begin until the body has come to a basic stop (after foot plant)from the front leg now acting as a brace to throw against.

I see the back leg thus as more of a guiding leg that controls the amount of stride (there is both some push and some pull involved) and also that which controls the balance of the body until the stride leg makes contact and then the stride leg takes over acting as the brace for the kinetic chain being unleashed into release.

One of the interesting things about the rear leg that gets overlooked is that it starts more straight and then ast the stride leg comes off the ground into leg kick, the rear leg then bends and starts the "timber" action of the body to begin to fall forward. The rear leg then acts as a stabilizer and as a brace for the hip to rotate against. This opposite effect thus feels like a "push" and in reality, it is the main motion of the torque of the hip that generates most of the forward motion. In that sense, there is some "push" if you call it that way becasue in order for the hips to begin to rotate, the front leg has to have something to "push" off of, which in this case is the rear leg that it is rotating off of. Do this- it is interesting to watch-

Watch a pitcher in slow motion and you will notice that the initial forward momentum is due almost entirely to the real leg bending and allowing the body to fall forward. Then, the hip starts to rotate and this is what pulls the body the rest of the way forward into foot plant.

just my own midnight musings....

Analysis Paralysis.

This is a topic that has come almost full circle over the last 15 years. Old school coaches used to always refer to "pushing off." Then many (not all) shifted to more of the "tall and fall" philosophy. Tom House was in this camp for years. As was internet "guru" DM. Remember his "nothing happens until foot plant" mantra? But some guys are now shifting back to a pushing off philosphy, including House and DM. Both are now advocating that you generate as much linear speed as you can prior to the plant foot landing. "Pushing off" is certainly one way of doing that. House doesn't really recommend a true "balance point" anymore.

A lot of this seems to be coming about because of Lincecum's success. He is making a lot of pitching coaches rethink their philosophies. I don't see how anyone can watch him throw without concluding that he gets a major push off.

BUT, TPM's quote from her son reminds me of a phrase that House also uses a lot. Some things are a "non teach." And whether to push off or not should probably be a "non teach" for most kids.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I actually asked him that question many years ago because of discussion here. My son doesn't "push" off the rubber (you can see his video in the topic
pitching mechanics and video). In fact if you look at Rivera (next to him) he is not even on the rubber. He did tell me he doesn't use that language because that sets up thinking as to what one should or shouldn't do. Sounded good to me after I asked son what he did and he said, "I have no idea I never thought about it". If you had read the articles you would see in one it was mentioned about how you instruct and language used.

Your ASSUMPTION that I didn’t read the articles shows why what they say about assuming is true. I just chose not to mention anything in them. But you still haven’t answered the question so I ask it again. “If that fellow doesn’t think either term should “ever” be used, how does he describe that particular action?”

quote:

Isn't the rubber just supposed to be there as the legal starting distance point for pitchers, not to push or pull off of? And I have even heard that the ball is illegally thrown if the foot is off of it. Is that true?

Exactly correct. It marks a boundary, just like the batter’s boxes and catcher’s box.

quote:

No problem in mentioning who it was, son's pitching coach from college now the head baseball coach and pitching coach at UF, Kevin O'Sullivan. Can you name the guy you are refering to?

Yes I can. His name is Dwight “Red” Adams. He was the PC of the Dodgers from ’68 thru ’80 under Walt Alston and Tommy LaSorda.

quote:

And what did he say? Why would you have to ask us if you already had the answer from a ML PC (former).

I didn’t HAVE to ask anyone anything! I was curious as to the pervasiveness of the different philosophies. FYI, he said there’s no way a pitcher can push off the rubber and get the proper upper body and arm action. Unfortunately it gets much more complicated than that, and I won’t try to explain further because I didn’t record what he said, and don’t want to misrepresent him.

quote:

Originally posted by MTH:
This is a topic that has come almost full circle over the last 15 years. Old school coaches used to always refer to "pushing off." Then many (not all) shifted to more of the "tall and fall" philosophy. Tom House was in this camp for years. As was internet "guru" DM. Remember his "nothing happens until foot plant" mantra? But some guys are now shifting back to a pushing off philosphy, including House and DM. Both are now advocating that you generate as much linear speed as you can prior to the plant foot landing. "Pushing off" is certainly one way of doing that. House doesn't really recommend a true "balance point" anymore.

A lot of this seems to be coming about because of Lincecum's success. He is making a lot of pitching coaches rethink their philosophies. I don't see how anyone can watch him throw without concluding that he gets a major push off.

BUT, TPM's quote from her son reminds me of a phrase that House also uses a lot. Some things are a "non teach." And whether to push off or not should probably be a "non teach" for most kids.

All pushing off does as in Lincecums case can be debated that it just gets him closer to home plate and doen't really do anything velocity-wise. I asked my son if he pushed hard off the mound and he said that it doen't feel at all like he pushes but rather gets pulled off the mound. I am sure that in some pitchers they do in fact push (Lincecum) but what does it really do? That is what is up for debate. It can't lead to an increase in velocity as the ball itself doesn't begin it's move towards home plate from a standstill until the front foot lands and the arm starts it's trajectory forward.

So what does forward momentum do in pushing off harder? I am not so sure but that it does absolutely nothing.

I'm no pitching guru, but how about this thought. You push off at first to get as much forward momentum and as long a stride as you can. Once you have front foot plant, you obviously stop forward momentum with your legs. Your back foot is still on or near the rubber. At that point, your foot is pulled away from the rubber due to rotation and upper body forward movement in the follow through of the motion.

So, maybe it's both. Start with a push off, end with a pull.

This will be a very crude oversimplification, but I believe the theory is that when the front leg plants and firms up you translate the forward momentum into rotational velocity, first in the hips, then to the upper body, and ultimately into the arm and ball. ASMI studies have shown that guys that do a better job of extending the front leg/knee tend to throw harder. The extension would serve to drive the front hip back, making it easier for the back side to come around. The greater the forward momentum (to a point) the more energy available to be transferred into the hips.

Again, my apologies for an oversimplified explanation of the theory, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by MTH:
This is a topic that has come almost full circle over the last 15 years. Old school coaches used to always refer to "pushing off." Then many (not all) shifted to more of the "tall and fall" philosophy. Tom House was in this camp for years. As was internet "guru" DM. Remember his "nothing happens until foot plant" mantra? But some guys are now shifting back to a pushing off philosphy, including House and DM. Both are now advocating that you generate as much linear speed as you can prior to the plant foot landing. "Pushing off" is certainly one way of doing that. House doesn't really recommend a true "balance point" anymore.

A lot of this seems to be coming about because of Lincecum's success. He is making a lot of pitching coaches rethink their philosophies. I don't see how anyone can watch him throw without concluding that he gets a major push off.

BUT, TPM's quote from her son reminds me of a phrase that House also uses a lot. Some things are a "non teach." And whether to push off or not should probably be a "non teach" for most kids.

All pushing off does as in Lincecums case can be debated that it just gets him closer to home plate and doen't really do anything velocity-wise. I asked my son if he pushed hard off the mound and he said that it doen't feel at all like he pushes but rather gets pulled off the mound. I am sure that in some pitchers they do in fact push (Lincecum) but what does it really do? That is what is up for debate. It can't lead to an increase in velocity as the ball itself doesn't begin it's move towards home plate from a standstill until the front foot lands and the arm starts it's trajectory forward.

So what does forward momentum do in pushing off harder? I am not so sure but that it does absolutely nothing.

Lincecum does not push off. The way he uses his entire body, rotating hips, shoulders "drives" him off of the rubber.
His large stride angle has a lot to do with the momentum he produces, but it's not from a "push".

Show us some video where he pushes.

The hips turn before foot plant. Velocity is generated by how much torque can be applied in the shortest most explosive amount of time causing a kinetic reaction that moves up the torso which causes a whipping action to catapult the arm into release. Thus, to find how velocity is generated, what causes the rotational torque of the torso? Is it a pushing action or a pulling action of the hips or both? Watching Bob Feller is interesting because you can see the torque action starting at the hips generating his velocity. Watch in this video how Feller keeps his weight back, leads with his hip and then explodes into release with his massive torque (turning force) of his torso. He was arguably the hardest throwing pitcher of all time. It doesn't appear that he has neither a great "push" nor great "stride" and yet still threw over 100 mph.-

Bob Feller in slow motion

Why don't we ask Tim.

"That just came naturally," Tim says. "My dad always told me to sit down on my back leg as long as I could and PUSH OFF AS MUCH AS I COULD. I'm trying to get as much out of my body as possible. I've got to use my ankles, my legs, my hips, my back. . . . That's why I'm so contorted and it looks like I'm giving it full effort when it's not exactly full effort." Tim Lincecum, quoted in How Tiny Tim Became a Pitching Giant by Tom Verducci in SI, July 1, 2008. Emphasis Added.

Or try these passages from the same article:

Now jump and land on the balls of your feet and your toes. The shock is absorbed with the help of the toes, feet, ankles, legs and bent knees. How can Lincecum take such a long stride and still land on the ball of his left foot with a bent front knee? One secret, he explains, is what he calls his "ANKLE KICK," a snapping of his right ankle as his right foot, the back foot, leaves the rubber. Lincecum comes off the rubber with such snap that, upon the ball's release, his right foot is more than a foot in front of the rubber, shrinking the distance -- and thus stealing precious time -- between him and the batter.

"My dad never taught me to lunge at the plate," Tim says. "It kind of came naturally. THAT ANKLE KICK THAT I GET AND THE DRIVE THAT I GET FROM MY BACK LEG will make a big difference in how I get to the plate and how I pitch that day." Emphases added.

If you want video, take a look at the video on the right. Sure looks like a push to me. Though I have no doubt you will see something different.
http://www.baseballthinkfactor...ed_fury_tim_lincecum

Even though I think he pushes off, and he thinks he pushes off, I think (opinion) he generates most of his velocity through rotational forces. And I think (opinion) he would agree.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Lincecum does not push off. The way he uses his entire body, rotating hips, shoulders "drives" him off of the rubber.
His large stride angle has a lot to do with the momentum he produces, but it's not from a "push".

Show us some video where he pushes.

Interesting comments from you GBM, a few years ago you argued that the velocity came from the arm (you do remember that right).

http://championpitching.com/ti...tching-mechanics.php

MTH,
I had trouble bringing up that site, will try again.

Here is video (above) from someone else's site and interestingly enough, they say he pushes but then talk about drive created by the rotational forces.

Are you an instructor, do you tell your students to "push" off of the mound?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Interesting comments from you GBM, a few years ago you argued that the velocity came from the arm (you do remember that right).

http://championpitching.com/ti...tching-mechanics.php

Arm strength does play a certain factor in velocity- the arm does have to be strong enough to withstand the forces placed upon it. Also, some velocity is generated solely from the arm because of the force generating the spin.

But of course, you already knew that!

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Interesting comments from you GBM, a few years ago you argued that the velocity came from the arm (you do remember that right).

http://championpitching.com/ti...tching-mechanics.php

Arm strength does play a certain factor in velocity- the arm does have to be strong enough to withstand the forces placed upon it. Also, some velocity is generated solely from the arm because of the force generating the spin.

But of course, you already knew that!

I did know that and glad to see that you are aware of it now too!

I'll see if I can find the same video on another site, but I just clicked on the link above and it worked fine for me. Could be a browser issue.

To me, drive and push can be used interchangeably. And I think (opinion again) that's what Lincecum is saying. I have no idea what someone else means when they use the terms.

Not a pitching coach. Don't claim to be. Out of necessity I taught my own kid but that doesn't make me a real pitching coach. I spend some time with a few young kids working on basic throwing mechanics, just to give me something to do with junior off at college. But I do read everything I can get my hands on, and remember most of what I read.

If I were a REAL pitching coach would I tell kids to push off. No. As I said above, I think that is a "non teach" for most. I don't think many kids could master a big push off. I WOULD encourage them get their momementum moving sooner and not post over the back leg so long, as I taught my son years ago. As House explains it, the longer it takes you to get into the foot plant the stronger you have to be, and the more time there is for something to go wrong.

Now, am I splitting hairs between Pushing Off and getting momentum going earlier? Maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
MTH,
I had trouble bringing up that site, will try again.

Here is video from someone else's site and interestingly enough, they say he pushes but then talk about drive created by the rotational forces.

Are you an instructor, do you tell your students to "push" off of the mound?

I have a feeling that this was brought about because stats has seen pitchers dig a hole in front of the mound.
I am not sure if that would be to actually push off of, but to give them a guideline as to foot placement along the pitching rubber. I have been watching lots of pitchers over the past years and I really don't see a "push" from any of them, even the lower velocity guys. The better pitchers are the ones that have greater stride length (despite size) and better hip, shoulder, arm rotation. And as mentioned in that video, proper sequence. JMO.

Stats,
I am not an instructor, I am only relaying to what one told me (a very good one). If I didn't make myself clear, he indicated that pitchers don't "push" as indicated in son's video and he was under him at the time of the video. My son actually has 3-4mph more than in that video, but I do beleive it is from stronger core, better lower body development and just being more mature physically.

Drive would seem like the correct word and according to your response, they both have the same philosophy. I would have no idea how you would teach pitching mechanics to a young pitcher better yet the words "non-teach" probably works best for mostas indicated by MTH.

MTH,
I got it up my browser having trouble big storm here. That video is from 2007, I didn't see a puch then and I dn't see one now.

Either way it is an interesting discussion and there are differences in what occurs but there is not doubt that rotational forces are of upmost importance in creating arm velocity.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MTH:
This will be a very crude oversimplification, but I believe the theory is that when the front leg plants and firms up you translate the forward momentum into rotational velocity, first in the hips, then to the upper body, and ultimately into the arm and ball. ASMI studies have shown that guys that do a better job of extending the front leg/knee tend to throw harder. The extension would serve to drive the front hip back, making it easier for the back side to come around. The greater the forward momentum (to a point) the more energy available to be transferred into the hips.

Again, my apologies for an oversimplified explanation of the theory, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.
[QUOTE]

MTH,

Why apologize for trying to keep it simple? IMO, often times people come on here with very good intentions, however, they get caught up on referencing ASMI,the kinetic chain, various pitching gurus, etc...and before you know it, we're not really talking baseball anymore?

Honestly, I appreciate the oversimplified explanation. Sometimes I wonder if people come on the Pitching and/or Hitting forums to show off their vocabulary, and in doing so, fail to truly help those seeking advice. I sit back staring at my computer and wonder if the person typing on the other end has any clue about the game? Sure, many of our HSBBWeb members are well educated and can talk the talk...but can they walk the walk? There's just a few on this board that I would trust to break down my son's mechanics on the mound, or in the batter's box. However, I'm still interested in what they have to say, and will formulate my own opinions on what will work best in my son's situation. BTW, I agree with the above theory, and again, your very crude oversimplification is well received and appreciated.

I think that MTH's explanation was excellent, short and to the point and easily understood.

I had a hunch you wouldn't see the same thing. How about we give the tiebreaker to Tiny Tim himself. ;-)

I will agree that I don't see a major push off in many pitchers. But I think it's pretty obvious in guys like Oswalt and Chapman.

Stats4Gnats just likes to drum up good discussions. Looks like he started the same topic, under a different screenname, on the ASMI board.

http://asmiforum.proboards.com...=display&thread=1526

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I have a feeling that this was brought about because stats has seen pitchers dig a hole in front of the mound.
I am not sure if that would be to actually push off of, but to give them a guideline as to foot placement along the pitching rubber. I have been watching lots of pitchers over the past years and I really don't see a "push" from any of them, even the lower velocity guys. The better pitchers are the ones that have greater stride length (despite size) and better hip, shoulder, arm rotation. JMO.

Stats,
I am not an instructor, I am only relaying to what one told me (a very good one). If I didn't make myself clear, he indicated that pitchers don't "push" as indicated in son's video and he was under him at the time of the video. My son actually has 3-4mph more than in that video, but I do beleive it is from stronger core, better lower body development and just being more mature physically.

Drive would seem like the correct word and according to your response, they both have the same philosophy. I would have no idea how you would teach pitching mechanics to a young pitcher better yet the words "non-teach" probably works best for mostas indicated by MTH.

MTH,
I got it up my browser having trouble big storm here. That video is from 2007, I didn't see a puch then and I dn't see one now.

Either way it is an interesting discussion and there are differences in what occurs but there is not doubt that rotational forces are of upmost importance in creating arm velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by MTH:
This will be a very crude oversimplification, but I believe the theory is that when the front leg plants and firms up you translate the forward momentum into rotational velocity, first in the hips, then to the upper body, and ultimately into the arm and ball. ASMI studies have shown that guys that do a better job of extending the front leg/knee tend to throw harder. The extension would serve to drive the front hip back, making it easier for the back side to come around. The greater the forward momentum (to a point) the more energy available to be transferred into the hips.

Again, my apologies for an oversimplified explanation of the theory, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

I also like that explanation. To add a bit more. There are certain pitchers (very good ones) when watched from the side or even on video, you can see everything working and there seems to be one extra gear at release. Foot plant, hips, shoulders, arm and then "fingers". Some very good ones noticeably have "fingers" as the last gear and it is really pretty when you can see it.

Ya, I see he likes to use up bandwidth.

Good discussion, always has been.

The video I posted was for info only , do not endorse that product.

The one thing about his comment, my understanding is that there should be no thought in the process. There are things that pitchers do to remind them of things to do in sequence (perhaps) but I am not sure a pitcher consciously thinks about a "push". JMO.

I really hate comparing hitting to pitching, but I think that this is one of those times where it can be done. There are two camps in hitting about this.

One (the main proponent is Dr. Chris Yeager) claims that power (and rotation) are induced by a push (with the rear leg), block (with the front leg), and push back (also with the front leg).

The other side (with the main proponent being
N y m an, among others) claims that the rear toe is pulled off the ground by the rapid rotation of the hips.

To be honest, I am on neither side because I see good evidence for both. However, I lean towards a push with the muscles of the core rather than the legs themselves.

The question asked was refering to use of the rubber. push or pull?

I just don't see it coming from the rubber. Some don't even touch it when they begin their leg kick.

I could agree that the "push" comes from somewhere else.

Shhhhh...

(You might give away the secret)

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Shhhhh...

You don't have to touch the rubber.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I have a feeling that this was brought about because stats has seen pitchers dig a hole in front of the mound.
I am not sure if that would be to actually push off of, but to give them a guideline as to foot placement along the pitching rubber. I have been watching lots of pitchers over the past years and I really don't see a "push" from any of them, even the lower velocity guys. The better pitchers are the ones that have greater stride length (despite size) and better hip, shoulder, arm rotation. And as mentioned in that video, proper sequence. JMO.

What brought it up was a thread on one site about holes in front of the rubber, the problems they cause, and what to do to mitigate those problems. I just happened to be talking to my friend later that day, and since we’d talked about mounds and their effect on pitchers many times before, I brought it up again.

I always get a great but very different perspective from him for this reason. He’d only played in a few ball games his entire life before he was signed back in ’39, so he never had to contend with the problem on an amateur level. Even though the mounds in the MiL weren’t exactly perfect, they’ve always been better than what the amateurs have in general. Once he had a family, like how most of us run into the problem, he was off “working”, so he never coached his kid’s teams, and was lucky just to see them play a game once in a while.

Then when he was a scout for almost 10 years, he did run into the problem, but it wasn’t something that made a great deal of difference to him. He was looking at something much different than whether or not a pitcher had an issue with a mound. And of course once he became the PC for the Dodgers, what happened to pitchers before they came under his authority didn’t really mean a lot.

So, a lot of things I talk to him about have a very strange perspective, that won’t probably be seen again in anyone at that level, and its fun to listen to how he responds to a lot of the things we all take so seriously and discuss from every possible perspective. I’m not saying I believe everything he says should be taken as gospel, but the guy is truly an amazing person with a wealth of knowledge that I believe is unsurpassed.

How’s this for a perspective. Because I knew he’d signed Bobby Cox, I made sure to mention his retirement and all the claptrap that went with it, hoping I’d hear a couple more stories about Bobby Cox that I hadn’t heard before. I was rewarded by over an hour of how he’d woo’d Cox and his family, back in the day, then on to some stories about him as a player too. That’s the kind of thing that gets lost when old farts like that pass on, and those things can’t be retrieved.

As I said, stats tends to use lots of bandwidth.

Were you more interested in letting us know who your friends rather than what the actual answer is or how we feel about it?

What's your theory, does the pitcher push or pull?

Another well debated topic. Really I can't declare a winner at this point.

There was a guy who studied this stuff and concluded "that for every action force there is an opposite directed reaction force."

Sir Isaac Newtons Third Law of Motion.

Momentum is often required to overcome inertia, to move a body at rest. Watch any track and field athlete begin from a stop, what do you see?

In this show I am watching, Brian Wilson's arms about 3 times the physical size (as well as body) as Lincecum's, they hit close to the same numbers in velocity. Yet Lincecum does a better job at using his entire body in his delivery.

Which in the case of Lincecum his exceptional delivery is what gives him his velocity, not his arm strength?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
As I said, stats tends to use lots of bandwidth.

Were you more interested in letting us know who your friends rather than what the actual answer is or how we feel about it?

What's your theory, does the pitcher push or pull?

Ii really don’t know what kind of personal problem you have with me that you always feel the need to put in some kind of dig, but I’ll assume whatever it is, is of such a personal nature that you’ll never change your mind. So be it.

As for who my friend was, who’s the one who demanded to know who he was? I’ve posted stories about him for more than a dozen years on more than 10 different boards, and only one other time mentioned his name, and that was because I was asked a direct question about whether it has him or not because the poster also knew him personally. So don’t go getting all high and mighty about me dropping names because you’re so pi$$ed at me personally.

I don’t have a theory about what a pitcher DOES! They all DO different things. I DO have a belief about what they should DO though to maximize the benefits of their efforts. But, I wouldn’t want to take up any more of your precious bandwidth. After all, I use so much of it you know, and for no good reason apparently.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
In this show I am watching, Brian Wilson's arms about 3 times the physical size (as well as body) as Lincecum's, they hit close to the same numbers in velocity. Yet Lincecum does a better job at using his entire body in his delivery.

Which in the case of Lincecum his exceptional delivery is what gives him his velocity, not his arm strength?

Arm strength is tremendously overrated. Utilizing the whole body is what provides velocity. I don't believe in Momentum Pitching because of it's instance that the body rotates as a unit, not in a segmented fashion.

Pitchers are pulled off the rubber by the rapid rotation of their hips. They don't push off the rubber, but they might push off the ground using muscles in the core.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
The question asked was refering to use of the rubber. push or pull?

I just don't see it coming from the rubber. Some don't even touch it when they begin their leg kick.

I could agree that the "push" comes from somewhere else.

Technically, TPM, If they aren't touching it at that point, it's a Balk.

When the weight shift moves to the rear leg to gather momentum to begin the leg kick and the stride, what word would you use to describe what action causes forward movement?

Where did the idea of size and strength of the arm correlating to velocity? Was that a part of this discussion?