Push or pull?

quote:

their hips. They don't push off the rubber, but they might push off the ground using muscles in the core.

There is no "might" to your last statement IMO, that indeed occurs. Are they touching the rubber at that point?

How do the hips "pull" them from the rubber if they should not have rotated yet?

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
Where did the idea of size and strength of the arm correlating to velocity? Was that a part of this discussion?

We've had some discussion here where some think velocity comes from arm strength, it was slighty touched upon here by someone else so I brought that up.

I may be wrong but I thought that both feet had to be in contact with the rubber at the start of the delivery only. The stride foot leaves the rubber and the back foot doesn't have to be touching. Wasn't there controvery about Lincecum at first that he took illegal "hop". But was never enforced, as it often is not for many? I did look this up before I posted, is that for baseball?
I do beleive that young players dig out a hole in front of the rubber to help them with a guideline, while likely some do to try to give them a brace for their "push", which they really shouldn't be and I can see a young pitcher without proper intruction trying that, while thinking that is why the rubber in there. Bad habit IMO either way. I remember my son used to "dig in".

Statty,
No secret that this is your second time here (scorekeeper). It's a good discussion, why not keep it that way, are we really interested in the history of your friend's bb career and that he signed Bobby Cox? I mean do I have to go into Sully's accomplishments. I am not even sure why you would ask me what qualifications the person who told me that had, do you think you are the only one who knows those in the business? Not sure what that brings to a discussion you brought up n(a good one without the other stuff).

As far as langauage, as I stated along with sultan I never thought of it as a push or pull, but rather more of "drive".

I just find the discussion so interesting because as you watch the game at different levels, you can pick out the good the bad and the ugly and why some players will have issues later on as they move forward. In fact, most pitchers will at some point have some issue (my own included, even with good stuff), because I do beleive that most pitchers, even the highest paid, often fail to use their delivery properly. The whole beauty of the pitchers mechanics is the body reaction to the event, which takes years to perfect. Not what he is thinking, because the more you think the more trouble you get into.

It's easy to see why some will never have a DL day in their life and why others will.

High velo guys get hurt often more than likely we know because they throw with their arm more than their body. Low velo, guys get hurt too. Same thing.

Overuse, curve balls, improper mechanics or improper use of body, poor conditioning all contribute to injury.

However, it's easy to see why Lincecum hasn't fallen like so many others, and it's not because he "pushes" or doesn't.

Just wanted to being that into the discussion.

Well TPM, as usual when someone allows personal feelings to enter the discussion, they find out they’re not correct about a lot of things, this being my second time here being one of those. But that should have nothing to do with squat all! So what if its my 2nd or 100th? What exactly is it I’m doing now that so infuriates you, that you feel obligated to mention it at every opportunity?

As for why I mentioned what I did about my friend, I did it to give the reader perspective about how a someone with his perspective thinks, and for no other reason. Those are the things that separate this generation’s thinking from the past. He’s 2 full generations removed and uneducated by almost every standard, but he sure knows a great deal about pitching and how to communicate with others without coming across as being superior or vindictive. We could all learn something from that.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
We could all learn something from that.

You got that right, but the point is, is this about does a pitcher push or pull or just what someone you know thinks about it, I have not heard you comment one way or the other on anyone else opinion or add to the discussion you began. You even had to make a comment on my reply asking about the credentials the person I spoke to. You challenged my reply to the discussion, why? You didn't do that to anyone else, why?

BTW, based on your observation and your expereience (keeping score), does the pitcher push or pull?

I think MTH's explanation is excellent, and I see both sides of the argument. If I were to choose, I'd say that a pitcher both pushes and pulls, at very different and particular points in the motion. With that being said, I am a college pitcher and echo TPM's son's statement...I honestly don't know what is right or wrong in this situation because I've never thought about it. The description MTH provided echos most of what I've been taught/follow about energy, inertia and balance. I've never thought about pushing off the rubber or pulling the body forward.

Still though, absolutely excellent discussion. I would love to see this continue and get more insight from others as well because it is quality reading and learning material.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

their hips. They don't push off the rubber, but they might push off the ground using muscles in the core.

There is no "might" to your last statement IMO, that indeed occurs. Are they touching the rubber at that point?

How do the hips "pull" them from the rubber if they should not have rotated yet?

Apologies for being vague. If the stride is under 100% of their height, the rotation pulls him off. If the stride is 100% of the height or greater, the stride pulls the pitcher off.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
You got that right, but the point is, is this about does a pitcher push or pull or just what someone you know thinks about it, I have not heard you comment one way or the other on anyone else opinion or add to the discussion you began. You even had to make a comment on my reply asking about the credentials the person I spoke to. You challenged my reply to the discussion, why? You didn't do that to anyone else, why?

BTW, based on your observation and your expereience (keeping score), does the pitcher push or pull?

You just won’t give up trying to make me look bad, one way or another, will you?

The only reason I commented on your “expert”, was that you used what he said rather than your own opinion. And it wasn’t a “challenge”. I just wanted to know who the expert was. In fact, if you look back, I don’t you’ll see where I challenged you or your opinion. Why do you suppose that is?

You ASSUME again that I have no experience with the game other than as a scorekeeper, and once again it proves why people shouldn’t assume. But, I wouldn’t even attempt to make a guess from the perspective of a scorekeeper. SK’s don’t watch individuals that way. We’re trying to score a game, not make judgments about players based on how they move.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
That was always my understanding. I was told by a pitching coach, that neither term should ever be used when teaching correct mechanics.

I posted that above because there are many different theories, and I was curious as to what others would say, but I don't think there is supposed to be a push or a pull.

Interesting. I don’t know what kind of credentials the coach you talked to had, but the fellow I was talking to was a ML PC and who’s pitchers saw 4 WS’s in 12 season under his tutelage. And while different theories are always interesting to hear, I tend to give a lot of weight to someone who’s proven they know what they’re doing while teaching at the highest levels of the game.

Statty, this is what you said, not even 4 posts into the discussion.

What does it matter what he said rather than my opinion, did you think that statement was wrong?

Keep in mind that all instructors instruct differently and maybe not to you but the old expression KISS works very well with baseball players.


JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

their hips. They don't push off the rubber, but they might push off the ground using muscles in the core.

There is no "might" to your last statement IMO, that indeed occurs. Are they touching the rubber at that point?

How do the hips "pull" them from the rubber if they should not have rotated yet?

Apologies for being vague. If the stride is under 100% of their height, the rotation pulls him off. If the stride is 100% of the height or greater, the stride pulls the pitcher off.

Thank you for the explanation. Which of the two strides is preferred? I don't agree that the longer stride get's you closer at release. What do you think? What are the downsides of the 100% stride? Are lower back and knee stress, Roy Oswalt for example, a by product?

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
Thank you for the explanation. Which of the two strides is preferred? I don't agree that the longer stride get's you closer at release. What do you think? What are the downsides of the 100% stride? Are lower back and knee stress, Roy Oswalt for example, a by product?

I am NOT an expert by any means. The 100% stride is thought to increase velocity because of increased momentum. The long stride does allow to release slightly closer to the plate (not over 6" closer though) It has personally helped me throw in the strike zone, rather than above the catcher.

The downside of the 100% stride is how it makes the pitcher perform a sideways split every time he pitches the ball. As the pitcher ages, the sideways split wears down bones/ligaments/muscles in the groin/ upper leg. As a result, I think Lincecum may reduce his stride slightly in order to safeguard his legs.

The lesser than 100% stride is what most pitchers do. The average stride is about 80-95% of height. It still causes a sideways split, but it allows the hips to rotate more easily.

Oswalt gets injured because of how he bends over after release, unduly stressing his back.

LF,

I’m curious to know if you think taking a longer stride is the reason you’ve gained accuracy, or if you could have accomplished the same thing with a shorter stride but slightly different timing?

The reason I ask is, over the years I’ve seen, heard about, and even tried many different things to effect some kind of change in the final result of a pitch, but inevitably it always seems to come down to simply a matter of timing. Things like lift the leg higher/lower, break sooner/later, etc., seem really nothing more than ways to alter timing. I wonder if a longer/shorter stride is one of those things too.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
LF,

I’m curious to know if you think taking a longer stride is the reason you’ve gained accuracy, or if you could have accomplished the same thing with a shorter stride but slightly different timing?

He stated that the longer stride did help his accuracy. The longer the stride the better the timing, I would assume. Same with leg kick (higher/lower) everyone is different.

The problem arises when pitchers lead with their shoulders or knee which interupts their timing.
Pitching is all about timing, and the sequence, the better the sequence the better the result, how can one change the final outcome of a pitch by not including that?

A shorter stride may be more helpful if the pitcher is over 100%, it would definetly help his timing.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
LF,

I’m curious to know if you think taking a longer stride is the reason you’ve gained accuracy, or if you could have accomplished the same thing with a shorter stride but slightly different timing?

The reason I ask is, over the years I’ve seen, heard about, and even tried many different things to effect some kind of change in the final result of a pitch, but inevitably it always seems to come down to simply a matter of timing. Things like lift the leg higher/lower, break sooner/later, etc., seem really nothing more than ways to alter timing. I wonder if a longer/shorter stride is one of those things too.

I think that the longer stride helped me gain accuracy because of how I was originally pitching. Originally, I strode about half my height and my foot never came off of the rubber. It may have had something to do with timing, but I don't know for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I think that the longer stride helped me gain accuracy because of how I was originally pitching. Originally, I strode about half my height and my foot never came off of the rubber. It may have had something to do with timing, but I don't know for sure.

Now you’re taking advantage of an old man with a fuzzy brain. I understand that you believe taking the longer stride helped your accuracy, and I have no doubt that it did. But I’ve honestly never seen a pitcher deliver a legal pitch with his foot never leaving the rubber. I’m suspecting you don’t mean that literally, but I don’t want to as so many others, and ASSUME anything.

Actually, you don’t have to wonder if what you did changed your timing. Everything a pitcher does affects his timing. The thing is, some affect it in a positive way, and some negatively. Obviously it was a positive change in your case, and that’s great! I Truly hope you have some good vids of your old and new ways, so when you have trouble in the future you can use them as a basis for comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I think that the longer stride helped me gain accuracy because of how I was originally pitching. Originally, I strode about half my height and my foot never came off of the rubber. It may have had something to do with timing, but I don't know for sure.

Now you’re taking advantage of an old man with a fuzzy brain. I understand that you believe taking the longer stride helped your accuracy, and I have no doubt that it did. But I’ve honestly never seen a pitcher deliver a legal pitch with his foot never leaving the rubber. I’m suspecting you don’t mean that literally, but I don’t want to as so many others, and ASSUME anything.

Actually, you don’t have to wonder if what you did changed your timing. Everything a pitcher does affects his timing. The thing is, some affect it in a positive way, and some negatively. Obviously it was a positive change in your case, and that’s great! I Truly hope you have some good vids of your old and new ways, so when you have trouble in the future you can use them as a basis for comparison.

My foot never left the rubber. Not leaving the rubber caused me to leave every pitch up in the strike zone. I ran into some of Dick Mills' free stuff about taking a longer stride. That helped me throw harder and with more consistency.

Right now, I'm not on any program. I'm emulating old-time MLB pitchers (Feller, Koufax, and others) and taking my mechanics from them. My mechanics are not a result of any "formal" teaching or any instructional videos. I believe in long toss, flat ground throwing, and weighted balls (intentionally weighted or not). I believe in these things because the old-timers used all of these things and (as a whole) were not injured as much as the pitchers of today are.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
My foot never left the rubber. Not leaving the rubber caused me to leave every pitch up in the strike zone. I ran into some of Dick Mills' free stuff about taking a longer stride. That helped me throw harder and with more consistency.

Could you post a vid of you pitching like that? I honestly can’t picture how its possible and would really appreciate the opportunity to see it.

quote:

Right now, I'm not on any program. I'm emulating old-time MLB pitchers (Feller, Koufax, and others) and taking my mechanics from them. My mechanics are not a result of any "formal" teaching or any instructional videos. I believe in long toss, flat ground throwing, and weighted balls (intentionally weighted or not). I believe in these things because the old-timers used all of these things and (as a whole) were not injured as much as the pitchers of today are.

I too believe there’s a lot to be learned from emulating pitchers who’ve had success, no matter when they pitched. So how have you come up with the things you think they did? Have you spoken a lot with old time pitchers? The reason I ask is, the “old timer” I know tells me it was very uncommon for pitchers prior to the 70’s to throw a ball more than the length between corner bases, which is 127’, other than to “loosen up”.

I have heard many interesting theories about why pitchers are perceived to not have suffered injuries at the rate modern pitchers do. The one I believe has more credence than anything, is that players younger than 16, spend many times more time playing ball than players of earlier eras, and it has a deleterious effect on the body.

Another one I think has a lot of merit, is that most pro players even as late as the 70’s, had to get off-season jobs to support themselves and their families. Many of them were doing some form of manual labor that caused them to use muscles that weren’t necessarily “baseball” muscles, and thus were in better overall shape.

Anyhoo, its always interesting to look to the past to see if there are lessons to be learned.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish: Right now, I'm not on any program. I'm emulating old-time MLB pitchers (Feller, Koufax, and others) and taking my mechanics from them. My mechanics are not a result of any "formal" teaching or any instructional videos. I believe in long toss, flat ground throwing, and weighted balls (intentionally weighted or not). I believe in these things because the old-timers used all of these things and (as a whole) were not injured as much as the pitchers of today are.

I too believe there’s a lot to be learned from emulating pitchers who’ve had success, no matter when they pitched. So how have you come up with the things you think they did? Have you spoken a lot with old time pitchers? The reason I ask is, the “old timer” I know tells me it was very uncommon for pitchers prior to the 70’s to throw a ball more than the length between corner bases, which is 127’, other than to “loosen up”.

I have heard many interesting theories about why pitchers are perceived to not have suffered injuries at the rate modern pitchers do. The one I believe has more credence than anything, is that players younger than 16, spend many times more time playing ball than players of earlier eras, and it has a deleterious effect on the body.

Another one I think has a lot of merit, is that most pro players even as late as the 70’s, had to get off-season jobs to support themselves and their families. Many of them were doing some form of manual labor that caused them to use muscles that weren’t necessarily “baseball” muscles, and thus were in better overall shape.

Anyhoo, its always interesting to look to the past to see if there are lessons to be learned.

I'm young, so everybody who pitched before the 90's is an old-timer to me

I watch slow-motion video that is posted on YouTube and attempt to emulate the movements. I both agree and disagree with your friend. Long toss has been around since baseballs were first manufactured. Humans want to out-perform other humans, it's only natural.

I think pitchers of today sustain more injury because of the lack of off-season manual labor. There are muscles that need to be trained apart from pitching muscles. I see the "cookie-cutter" deliveries as being another reason. Pitchers today (even though there isn't a way of measuring it) seem to not throw as hard. I think the "cookie-cutter" deliveries that everyone seems to teach have the effect of less use of the legs and more use of the arms.

Did your friend say anything about weighted (water-logged) balls or flat ground throwing?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I'm young, so everybody who pitched before the 90's is an old-timer to me

I used to know the feeling.

quote:

I watch slow-motion video that is posted on YouTube and attempt to emulate the movements. I both agree and disagree with your friend. Long toss has been around since baseballs were first manufactured. Humans want to out-perform other humans, it's only natural.

Have you ever tried to throw like Cy Young or Christy Mathewson.

My friend wasn’t saying log toss itself wasn’t a good thing or wasn’t used, but rather that it wasn’t a tool pitchers used to strength their arm the way it is today.

quote:

I think pitchers of today sustain more injury because of the lack of off-season manual labor. There are muscles that need to be trained apart from pitching muscles. I see the "cookie-cutter" deliveries as being another reason. Pitchers today (even though there isn't a way of measuring it) seem to not throw as hard. I think the "cookie-cutter" deliveries that everyone seems to teach have the effect of less use of the legs and more use of the arms.

The problem I see with the “cookie cutter” or “clone” approach, isn’t that one way or another is good or bad, but rather that no approach could possible fit everyone. Just because some has all of his limbs and is considered “healthy” and “in good athletic” shape, it doesn’t mean he can use the same methods someone else does, or that he should.

FI, my son has a slight curvature of the spine. When he pitched, if he tried to use an arm angle or torso tilt that would allow him to throw over-the-top, it would hurt his back so back that sometimes he wouldn’t be able to walk just an hour or so after throwing. His adjustment was to throw from a very flat arm angle and be very “upright”. He managed to have great success with it, but I seriously doubt that using his approach would work for many people because its not looked at as being “normal”.

quote:

Did your friend say anything about weighted (water-logged) balls or flat ground throwing?

To tell the truth, I can’t remember it ever coming up, but I’ll try to remember to ask the next time I talk to him.

Low,
It's ok to study the classic pitchers, they do it in proball during pitching camps (at least they do in son's organization). The most important thing though is to allow your natural arm slot to work for you and use the entire body.

You are not correct that the old timers didn't have injuries. They were riddled with injuries, but they had no choice, you either pitched or you were done.

One of my son's pitching coaches in his organization, pretty well known, was an alcoholic, he will tell you it was due to the pain they often suffered. The drill was that you drank away the pain after a game, then you waited for the suppliers to come give you greenies to get you "up" for the game. Animal steroids was in use back then as well.

Stats is correct about most "old timers" (all players). They threw hard but not as far. Long toss and it's advantages helps all player to throw farther distance (my opinion the main benfit). There is controversy over weighted ball, be careful.

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The problem I see with the “cookie cutter” or “clone” approach, isn’t that one way or another is good or bad, but rather that no approach could possible fit everyone. Just because some has all of his limbs and is considered “healthy” and “in good athletic” shape, it doesn’t mean he can use the same methods someone else does, or that he should.

FI, my son has a slight curvature of the spine. When he pitched, if he tried to use an arm angle or torso tilt that would allow him to throw over-the-top, it would hurt his back so back that sometimes he wouldn’t be able to walk just an hour or so after throwing. His adjustment was to throw from a very flat arm angle and be very “upright”. He managed to have great success with it, but I seriously doubt that using his approach would work for many people because its not looked at as being “normal”.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
You are not correct that the old timers didn't have injuries. They were riddled with injuries, but they had no choice, you either pitched or you were done.

The two posts above pretty much sum up the injury thing for me.

Of course there are more documented injuries now than in the old days. Before Tommy John had Tommy John surgery, there were no such injuries talked about. We know the names of those that pitched for many years, we might not know the names of the many who were injured and fell by the wayside.

Also, being an old timer myself, I really think young kids back then threw much more than the kids do today. At least in my experience. Did they throw as hard? Guess I don't know for sure, but I do know that many threw as hard as they could and did it a lot. I see lots of games these days and I see far less of what we would call "abuse" of pitchers than I saw many years ago. Geez, in the old days pitchers might pitch in both games of a double header when young. In fact, it even happened in the Big leagues.

I mostly agree with what Stats4Gnats posted above. Just my opinion remember, but I truly believe the #1 reason for many arm injuries are in fact the so called good mechanics. In the old days there wasn't so much science involved. It was near impossible to find a good pitching instructor. I never heard the word mechanics ever being used. No back then pitchers threw the ball the way their body told them to. They would make adjustments in order to throw as hard as possible. As "stats" mentioned, now days we search for perfect mechanics. Heck they might have changed Bob Feller's delivery had he came up these days.

Anyway, my theory is this... Any "major" adjustment in someone's "natural" throwing action is likely to create injury over time. I believe the greatest pitching coaches understand the "natural" nature of throwing. They might tinker with minor adjustments here and there, but you don't mess with mother nature!

I think this relates to that "Cookie Cutter" approach that "Stats" referred to. We need to understand that every individual is different. What works great for one individual could actually help cause injury in another person. I really do get concerned that as time goes on, we keep taking more away from what comes naturally. I understand why good mechanics are so important, yet at the same time I think we have gone overboard on mechanics. If a horse can win the Kentucky Derby running backwards... That is a very special horse... Leave him alone!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
…Of course there are more documented injuries now than in the old days. Before Tommy John had Tommy John surgery, there were no such injuries talked about. We know the names of those that pitched for many years, we might not know the names of the many who were injured and fell by the wayside.

I couldn’t agree more! Just having better medical advice available has produced what seems like many more injuries. But I feel many of them are simply because they can now be recognized by far more people. FI, I don’t when the advent of the “Sport’s Medicine” field came about, but I know for sure it had to be sometime between the ‘60’s and now because it wasn’t around before that. And how about “trainers”? Todays’ trainers for HS teams very often know a lot more about health and medicine than Drs did back when. What I’m saying is, the number of reported injuries has increased mainly because the ability to recognize them has increased.

quote:

Also, being an old timer myself, I really think young kids back then threw much more than the kids do today. At least in my experience.

I’ve changed my mind on that topic over the years. After a lot of thought about it, I think that kids “threw” more back then during the season, but they weren’t as “violent” about the movements. IOW, they weren’t trying to throw strawberries through the side of battleships like the kids do today. And that word “season” has a lot to do with it as well. I grew up in Ohio where we had 4 seasons, but if we wanted to, we could easily have thrown outside for 9 of the 12 months. But I really don’t remember anyone throwing a baseball from the end of the WS until well into March or April. That’s close to 5 months.

Heck, I have neighbor kids out here in Ca who throw more from the time they’re 8 thru 11, than I ever did from the time I started playing at about 5 until I stopped at 18 YO.

quote:

I mostly agree with what Stats4Gnats posted above. Just my opinion remember, but I truly believe the #1 reason for many arm injuries are in fact the so called good mechanics. In the old days there wasn't so much science involved. It was near impossible to find a good pitching instructor. I never heard the word mechanics ever being used. No back then pitchers threw the ball the way their body told them to. They would make adjustments in order to throw as hard as possible. As "stats" mentioned, now days we search for perfect mechanics. Heck they might have changed Bob Feller's delivery had he came up these days.

Anyway, my theory is this... Any "major" adjustment in someone's "natural" throwing action is likely to create injury over time. I believe the greatest pitching coaches understand the "natural" nature of throwing. They might tinker with minor adjustments here and there, but you don't mess with mother nature!

That’s a very important distinction to make that sadly not everyone understands.

Very nice post. Lots of sage advice in there that should be considered by anyone still involved at the amateur level.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Low,
It's ok to study the classic pitchers, they do it in proball during pitching camps (at least they do in son's organization). The most important thing though is to allow your natural arm slot to work for you and use the entire body.

You are not correct that the old timers didn't have injuries. They were riddled with injuries, but they had no choice, you either pitched or you were done.

One of my son's pitching coaches in his organization, pretty well known, was an alcoholic, he will tell you it was due to the pain they often suffered. The drill was that you drank away the pain after a game, then you waited for the suppliers to come give you greenies to get you "up" for the game. Animal steroids was in use back then as well.

Stats is correct about most "old timers" (all players). They threw hard but not as far. Long toss and it's advantages helps all player to throw farther distance (my opinion the main benefit). There is controversy over weighted ball, be careful.

I'm not doubting that there were injuries (and you never insinuated that I didn't), but either severe injuries did not occur as often, or the pitchers did their jobs and pitched. I don't use balls that were intentionally weighted, and I do realize that there is a lot of controversy about them. I use balls that got rained on. Most coaches can't wait to be rid of them.

The medical care was admittedly quite lacking. I agree that it is important to work from the natural arm slot. (mine is naturally high 3/4 to overhand)
For that reason, I don't subscribe to the majority of Marshall's ideas, even though (as I have stated), I think he makes some good points.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
The problem I see with the “cookie cutter” or “clone” approach, isn’t that one way or another is good or bad, but rather that no approach could possible fit everyone. Just because some has all of his limbs and is considered “healthy” and “in good athletic” shape, it doesn’t mean he can use the same methods someone else does, or that he should.

FI, my son has a slight curvature of the spine. When he pitched, if he tried to use an arm angle or torso tilt that would allow him to throw over-the-top, it would hurt his back so back that sometimes he wouldn’t be able to walk just an hour or so after throwing. His adjustment was to throw from a very flat arm angle and be very “upright”. He managed to have great success with it, but I seriously doubt that using his approach would work for many people because its not looked at as being “normal”.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
You are not correct that the old timers didn't have injuries. They were riddled with injuries, but they had no choice, you either pitched or you were done.

The two posts above pretty much sum up the injury thing for me.

Of course there are more documented injuries now than in the old days. Before Tommy John had Tommy John surgery, there were no such injuries talked about. We know the names of those that pitched for many years, we might not know the names of the many who were injured and fell by the wayside.

Also, being an old timer myself, I really think young kids back then threw much more than the kids do today. At least in my experience. Did they throw as hard? Guess I don't know for sure, but I do know that many threw as hard as they could and did it a lot. I see lots of games these days and I see far less of what we would call "abuse" of pitchers than I saw many years ago. Geez, in the old days pitchers might pitch in both games of a double header when young. In fact, it even happened in the Big leagues.

I mostly agree with what Stats4Gnats posted above. Just my opinion remember, but I truly believe the #1 reason for many arm injuries are in fact the so called good mechanics. In the old days there wasn't so much science involved. It was near impossible to find a good pitching instructor. I never heard the word mechanics ever being used. No back then pitchers threw the ball the way their body told them to. They would make adjustments in order to throw as hard as possible. As "stats" mentioned, now days we search for perfect mechanics. Heck they might have changed Bob Feller's delivery had he came up these days.

Anyway, my theory is this... Any "major" adjustment in someone's "natural" throwing action is likely to create injury over time. I believe the greatest pitching coaches understand the "natural" nature of throwing. They might tinker with minor adjustments here and there, but you don't mess with mother nature!

I think this relates to that "Cookie Cutter" approach that "Stats" referred to. We need to understand that every individual is different. What works great for one individual could actually help cause injury in another person. I really do get concerned that as time goes on, we keep taking more away from what comes naturally. I understand why good mechanics are so important, yet at the same time I think we have gone overboard on mechanics. If a horse can win the Kentucky Derby running backwards... That is a very special horse... Leave him alone!

The pitcher who has the most success is the one most emulated. It's the same thing in hitting. Right now, the model is Roger Clemens (and has been for the last 20-25 years). It may have been Gibson or Feller at other times.

bbscout (who unfortunately I never had the pleasure of posting with or knowing) said that teams would attempt to change Juan Marichal today and nobody would ever have heard of him. I agree with this because of the idea of "models". Nearly every pitcher I know has the same basic model.

1. Step to side
2. Lift leg
3. Stride
4. Rotate hips
5. Deliver ball

There isn't any personal "style" in it anymore. Guys used to pump their arms up and down and have ridiculously high leg kicks. Everything is so "cookie-cutter" today. If you read the Sports Illustrated article from two weeks ago, Ron Wolforth says the same thing.

The same thing is true in hitting. Go to a high school game and watch the hitters. You can't tell the difference most of the time. Most of it is "Set the bat up in the 45 slot and swing from there". No "Tip n' Rip" anymore.

My final point: (and then I'll step down off of my soapbox)There is more science in the game today then ever. There are pitching coaches that say "You have to deliver the ball like this because it's the most efficient way". There are very few absolutes in pitching, and I think N y m a n and Wolforth know the great majority of them.

OK, I'm getting off my soapbox now...

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Nearly every pitcher I know has the same basic model.

1. Step to side
2. Lift leg
3. Stride
4. Rotate hips
5. Deliver ball

There isn't any personal "style" in it anymore.

If it were that easy, everyone would be successful at it, wouldn't they?

The key to pitching success is repeating the same delivery over and over and over. The less that a pitcher has to do, the easier the job is to be successful (and it is a job).

I am not sure I agree with some of what you say, you will see many different styles of pitching in one single game. If you know and understand there are differences. Most don't notice. i was at a game watching a top ranked milb pitcher and I was not sure what was so different about him until someone pointed out the difference. I am not that good at differentiating, are you?

You are wrong, they were very much hurt. They were known as warriors so they didn't talk much about it. My son sat at dinner one night with a guy who played milb and team mates with Tommy John. Very interesting.

I like Wolforth, he and Brent Strom worked together, Strom is the pitching rover for the STL Cardinals. He and Dylar Miller (the pitching guru) follow the classic mechanics.

Of all the ones you have decided to emulate, is Roger Clemens?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Nearly every pitcher I know has the same basic model.

1. Step to side
2. Lift leg
3. Stride
4. Rotate hips
5. Deliver ball

There isn't any personal "style" in it anymore.

If it were that easy, everyone would be successful at it, wouldn't they?

The key to pitching success is repeating the same delivery over and over and over. The less that a pitcher has to do, the easier the job is to be successful (and it is a job).

I am not sure I agree with some of what you say, you will see many different styles of pitching in one single game. If you know and understand there are differences. Most don't notice. i was at a game watching a top ranked milb pitcher and I was not sure what was so different about him until someone pointed out the difference. I am not that good at differentiating, are you?

You are wrong, they were very much hurt. They were known as warriors so they didn't talk much about it. My son sat at dinner one night with a guy who played milb and team mates with Tommy John. Very interesting.

I like Wolforth, he and Brent Strom worked together, Strom is the pitching rover for the STL Cardinals. He and Dylar Miller (the pitching guru) follow the classic mechanics.

Of all the ones you have decided to emulate, is Roger Clemens?

I said that they got hurt. I was unaware of the primitive treatment methods.

No, Roger Clemens seems to be "the model" for what most instructors teach today. "The model" has definitely changed over the last 40 years. I emulate Bob Feller and Tom Seaver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqorZLqRUm0