Radar Gun Revolution

If this thing turns out to be worth diddly (which I doubt) things are about to get even worse.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/...e-of-a-fancy-coffee/

It's here to stay.  There are many kids who don't hit 90 who can be very effective, but will be judged on that lack of velocity.  I know there are reasons for 90 being the benchmark mostly because so many kids throw over 90 now a days, so there are plenty of 90+ guys to choose from.  

 

I'm not sure what my son throws right now.  His college does not use radar guns.  I asked him about it the other day and he said his coaches don't care how hard you throw, as long as you are effective.  Unfortunately, this attitude and practice is in the minority.  I'd just like to know because, obviously, to garner interest in the draft, you gotta be 90.  Why try to get there if you're not hitting that?

It looks like you need to be standing in a specific spot for the readings to be accurate, so we probably won't be seeing dads clocking their 9 year olds during the game. Well, not with this at least...

 

MTH....well yeah!  If parents and coaches can get a radar gun for $9.99 for their iPhone 5S that would/could detect up to 100mph then this whole thing is about to get 100 times worse.  The hard core/uneducated parents will have their children in the back yard at age 10 asking kids to hit 70mph...TJ surgeries are already on the rise from the yahoo's who had the money to buy the $1200 radar guns.  If they are available to every tom-dick-and harry for under $10 then this whole velocity issue is about to get 1000 times worse.

 

My son plays 12u and an assistant coach brought a radar gun to practice last week and the head coach flipped out and said NO 12 YEAR OLD WILL BE CLOCKED! GET IT OFF MY FIELD!

 

Gotta love that coach!

Just for the record, we have a radar display in our building.  It has been there for nearly 20 years.  Everyone that has ever pitched on our mound can see the radar reading displayed.  We have not had one single TJ surgery in 20 years.

 

I don't understand why anyone blames the radar gun for producing TJ surgeries.  If we have to blame something, why not put the blame where it belongs... Abuse of pitchers! And it has been going long before TJ was available.  It's just not as likely to end careers now days... Thanks to TJ surgery. Same holds true for hip, knee, heart, kidney, etc. replacements.  Why don't people use the word "epidemic" when describing those surgeries?

 

 

A radar gun CANNOT cause TJ surgeries, or UCL tears more specifically.  People equate the radar gun with the injuries because the fact of the matter is, the harder you throw, the more likely you are to get injured.  The UCL can only take so much force before it snaps - and I believe I read that threshold comes into play at around 85 mph.  So, you take a guy throwing hard and combine it with overuse and pitching while fatigued, and you will have a recipe for disaster.

 

The problem isn't the radar gun, it's the perception that's been created that the harder you throw, the better your chances of getting a big college scholarship or getting drafted.  If there wasn't so much emphasis on throwing 90, 95, 100 mph, kids wouldn't be so obsessed with getting to that velocity.  If you'd start to see more sub-90 guys getting drafted because they know how to pitch, the radar gun would be less important and wouldn't be seen as an issue.

 

In the articles, several scouts noted that the only reason they carry a radar gun is because the scouting forms they have to fill out, ask for velocity.  Maybe if that box was taken off the scouting reports, we'd be better off.

That is exactly where I put the blame on the hard core/uneducated parents that will have their 10 year old trying to hit 70mph.  There are now young teenagers getting TJ surgery, I don't think that can be blamed on the coach's since nearly every younger person tournament has strict pitching rules.  Either the parents are encouraging the abuse of the younger pitcher or allowing the kids to practice too much.

What nonsense.  I wonder if the coach has a speedometer on his car.  Get off my lawn!   Where do coaches get these ideas?

 

While this is a nice thought, we're not going to see it.  Velocity is measurable and trackable.  You can't measure "he knows how to pitch".  Sure you can compare stats on wins/losses/era/etc. but much of that is dependent on the quality of the players on your team and on the competition you face.  It's not easy to use that stuff to compare one guy to another.

 

Velocity though doesn't care if you are pitching on a high school mound in small town middle America, or in game 7 at Yankee Stadium.  It is what it is.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean it is the best way to evaluate pitchers - I don't even know where you would begin to create a "best" way.  However it is an objective way.

 

Until someone creates a set of objective measurables that can be combined to formulate whether a pitcher is any good or not - we're stuck with velocity.

 

 

I know.

I don't think you can blame a player or parent for chasing velocity, what is listed on every scouting report from every service out there - MPH accross the board. a few old time scouts and say it doesn't matter to them but if you look at the data they are obviously wrong. Search recruiting posts on this site - what are colleges looking for 90+ RH and upper 80 LH this is not a secret - it is the game as dictated by the powers that run it.

 

PG there is a kid in the town next mine, he is in your data base as player to follow or whatever you call the highly projectable rating - he plays for a national team that you would know very well, the kid has not been over used by any standard that I am aware of his entire life  and he just had TJ in the last week or 10 days. Why? who knows...maybe sometimes the arm only has so many throws in it and when you hit the number something is going to give.

I don't believe that there is any perception - I believe it is as close a 100% fact as there can be. obviously there are a few outliers but it is a very small number and shrinking. You want to get drafted 90 isn't going to be enough by itself...again none of us make the rules, the blame goes on baseball coaches, excutives and scouts that make evaluations and choices.

 

on the flip side they may be correct and the fallout of the chance to reach the highest levels a lot of broken arms...I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Nope. That's a coach that is closeminded to the many uses of a radar gun in baseball. I'd also say that if I were an AC and the HC screamed at me for bringing it out, me and my kid would be gone. He certainly has the right to make certain decisions about how the team is coached, but not to humiliate me in front of the team. I ain't no juicebox boy!

In addition, when is the NFL going to stop measuring 60m times? This is surely to lead to a hamstring "epidemic."

 I'm not sure what tournaments you have been to. I was watching this 12u tournament on tv. After the game they interviewed the coah. He said if this kid stays healthy , he will be really good. The kid threw a complete game like 126 pitches. But my son is 14 and I have seen these kids put through the meat grinder by these coaches. I'm not saying that the parents shouldn't take some of the blame either. And this is the majority of the teams to different degrees. I have seen parents bring radars since the kids were 10. I just shake my head . Personally I don't think they should be gunned until it is a non factor to them. Nothing like watching a good pitcher start over throwing for the radar. 

Why can't we just accept that arm injury has always accompanied pitching and it's no more a problem than it has ever been? It's just that now, with a media blitz on the subject, we're talking about it more. It's more in our face now. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - it's a good thing. With modern advances in conditioning and medicine there is no reason we can't address these problems, but to act like we just discovered that pitching is damaging to the arm is a little naive.

 

Yes, there are now young pitchers getting TJ surgery. It's not because injuries haven't always plagued young pitchers, it's more a case of being more aware and seeking a solution that wouldn't have been considered 20 years ago. A couple of decades ago, if a kid's arm was hurt pitching he either pitched through it or stopped pitching. He didn't go to a surgeon. Today, that's an option that wasn't previously available.

I gunned kids at every game for years in youth ball.  After 2-3 throws, they no longer pay any attention to you.  I've never seen a kid 'over throwing for the radar'.  What does that mean anyway?

To me this is just more of the typical modern response of everything is something or someone else's fault. Mcdonalds is why I'm fat, TV is why I'm lazy. Radar guns are why kids are hurting their arms. Blah blah blah blah and so on.

I'm sorry I didn't explain the situation clearly. Parents of 10 year old's making a big deal about radar at practices. I'm sure that in game situations they're more focused . You did say it took a couple of pitches to stop paying attention though  . I'm sure when they get older it takes more to get them out of their zone. I will defer to your experiences. Anyway I think its more about the kids getting enough rest and not too many pitches. I know I'm in the minority on this site ,but I'm all about the batter. You can gun every pitcher my son is facing.

Where would Greg Maddox be if he were just coming up?

Same place he ended up, he threw in the mid 90's when he was younger....

 The pitch count / hunt for velocity has been discussed on several threads lately.

 

IMHO, there are more TJ surgeries today for four primary reasons. It is available, effective, insurance companies are paying for it and the recovery time keeps getting shorter (14 months in the 90's to 12 months a few years ago to 10 months now). If the trend continues, it'll continue to be more common. Turn it into the equivalent of an arthroscopic knee operation and everyone will have it.

 

How many of us old farts have had the knee done to get rid of loose cartiledge? Would you have had the same surgery if the recovery was like an ACL? Probably not, we'd just hobble around and deal with the clicks and lock ups.

 

In the good old days, had TJ been available there would've been guys getting it just like they are today. So many pitchers in the 60's and 70's (and a hundred years prior) could've benefited, they just didn't have the option. Their options were to pitch with pain or quit.

 

I've talked with former pros who've had it. One was a fastball / changeup guy. He never threw a breaking ball or any ball that exceeded 90 mph, but on that one day, he heard a pop and that was that. His was in the early 90's and he never really made it back after 15 months trying. Now a days he'd have likely been back in 10 months and probably returned to his previous form. Back then, it wasn't as advanced and it simply wasn't as good (surgery and rehab).

 

Maddox threw 86 and was effective late in his career because he had pin point control, which he learned was important when he was 20 something and threw 95. A lot of guys who pitched into their late 30's and early 40's followed the same path. They threw hard when they were young but figured out how to get guys out with less velocity as they got older. Would Jamie Moyer get drafted with his 40YO velocity at age 18? Heck no, but he was getting guys out topping at 82 a few years ago at 47.

 

Pitchers pitch and get guys out, but not every "pitcher" gets a chance if they don't light the gun up when they're young. None of it has to do with TJ. If the UCL goes, it goes and you have to deal with it. Luckily guys have an option today they didn't have 30 years ago. They can get it fixed and continue to live the dream.

A radar gun can, and is, used for scouting purposes. However it can also be used for training purposes.  Speed differentials for one thing.

 

Actually the radar gun might become obsolete at some point.  It will be replaced by more  sophisticated technology that not only compiles velocity, but spin rates, extension, movement and many other key elements in evaluating pitchers.  In fact, TrackMan is a company we are partnered with and next year every MLB stadium will be using TrackMan.  Velocity will be just as important and there will continue to be TJ surgeries. Maybe someone will blame the spin rate.  Kids trying to reach MLB RPMs on their curve ball. Maybe they will blame extension being measured and important.  Kids trying to reach certain extension distances.  People can blame anything they want I guess.

 

When was it that kids with a good arm didn't want to show it off, with or without a radar gun pointed at them?  Velocity was always important, long before the radar gun was invented.  The radar gun just confirms how hard the kid throws.  Scouts always have been attracted to the kids that could throw the ball hard.

 

Also, You don't throw harder because there is a radar gun.  Those that try to throw harder than they are capable of, simply end up throwing slower when they muscle up.

 

Throwing 90 or better means you have a real good arm.  By itself it doesn't guarantee any success.  Throwing 90 might create interest, but by itself it won't cause the decision makers to do what you want.  These people are not stupid, they don't just read the gun and skip everything else.

 

I wish more people understood the Greg Maddux story.  He was a skinny high school kid with a great arm.  As BOF mentioned he was in the 90s before his 16th birthday and mid 90s in high school.  Drafted in the 2nd round he made the Big Leagues because of his great arm.  He learned to tone down the velocity and increase his command and movement.  So he actually is more proof that velocity is the thing scouts/MLB look for. Once you get there you can throw under handed so long as you're getting the job done.

 

I look at TJ surgery as a wonderful medical advancement.  Same way I look at laser surgery, and all those other medical advancements.  They do millions of hip and knee replacements these days.  Are these people abusing their hips and knees more than they did 40 years ago?  Why aren't these labeled as epidemics?  I hate hearing that any pitcher has to have TJ surgery.   But I love the fact that something can be done about that these days.  In the "old" days pitchers would continue throwing with partial UCL problems.  They pitched until they no longer could.  Now they can do something to hopefully regain their past ability. Modern Medical Advancement, one that I consider great for baseball.

 

None of the above changes the fact that pitchers are often abused, mostly in the interest of winning a baseball game.  If there was a way to stop the abuse, we would have far fewer arm injuries at the youth levels. And who are these pitchers that get abused the most?  Well you already know... They are the ones with the best arms! Don't need a radar gun to see the difference between the kid that throws 60 mph and the kid that throws 80 mph.  If both can throw strikes, which is most likely to get abused?

 

Once again, it always amazes me how the people here on the HSBBW seem to understand things better than most of those out there making their living covering the game. Maybe that is because no one here has a reason to sensationalize things.

... thereby eliminating one of the greatest jobs in the world... sitting behind home plate with a radar gun at MLB games.

I was watching the

Phillies / Pirates game last night and was surprised to see a young man with a radar gun and a walkie talkie. I haven't really noticed anyone doing that lately.  The Dodgers guy always stood out because of his big white hat.

 

This spring two Junior HS pitchers faced off.  Pitcher 1 is 6’ 3” who throws 87-89, really only has a fast ball, wild, explosive delivery with little control.  He hits three guys in the back, walks 3 others, and is pulled after 4 innings giving up 6 runs.  Pitcher 2 is 6’ 1” and throws 83-84 with four very good pitches and great control.  One walk, 6 k’s, no runs, complete game.  Guess which one is committed to an SEC school and which one will likely play at a junior college?  I realize that this is a snapshot but is typical of both their performances throughout the spring and summer.

 

Yes, pitcher 2 is my son.  Actually not at all bitter about it.  I understand the game.  Velocity is all that matters to a big D1 program and the draft.  One kid hit the velocity level, one hasn’t yet. 

 

nolan ryan,

 

Based just on the description you gave, I am surprised that Pitcher 1 was recruited by an SEC college. I would consider pitcher 2 more likely to impress a major DI school even without the big velocity.  On the other hand pro scouts would be most interested in Player 1. 

 

Colleges tend to take the pitcher that they think is most likely to win games.  Professional Baseball tends to take whoever they think will be better in the long run. In most cases that would be the taller kid with the better velocity.

 

BTW, if you have described this accurately, it sounds like your son is only a spike in velocity away from creating some serious interest. We see a lot of young kids that threw low 80s as a junior and upper 80s or 90 as a senior.  Combination of natural growth, hard work, and great instruction.

To further PG's point from my own perspective, the junior high coach holds try outs and picks the players who can best help him win over the next 8-10 weeks. That is all he cares about, he is very short sighted.

 

The HS coach probably will accept more players in the freshman program, because he's looking at who will help him over the next four years. That freshman who is 5'2" might be 6'3" by his senior year, don't cut him until you find out if he matures and grows. He has to win games, but he has a program outlook of four years.

 

The college coach is thinking the same way, to an extent. He's thinking how that sophomore or junior in HS can help him win in three years when that kid is actually playing in his program.  The college coach has a five to seven year outlook when looking at sophomores and juniors in HS. He has a two year outlook when he goes to JC to correct a mistake. He REALLY has to win, so he needs guys who will help him accomplish that goal. Winning is everything.

 

As PG points out, the 18U that can't tie his shoes but is 6'4" throwing 97 with nary a clue where its going is a pro prospect, because the pros can spend 2 years to uncoach - recoach him into being a control pitcher before they need him start him up the minor league tree that results in him being ready at age 25 for a September call up. The college coach can't accept the same kid with a five year plan to have him eventually throwing strikes effectively and being ready for the pros in seven years. By the time he's effective, he's long gone from college ball.

 

The D-1 college coach wants a kid throwing two pitches for strikes. You would be surprised how many PAC-12 starters start at 88-90 and are at 85 after a couple of innings yet still go deep into games. If you throw three pitches for strikes, the potential to go deep is even greater. IMHO that is the biggest difference between the colleges and the pros for pitchers.

My son is a sub-six footer and got a few solid offers sophmore summer and got ZERO love from big D1's at that time. He hit the weight room that winter and came out the 1st varsity game of the season and hit 92. By the end of this past summer, he was 89-92, up to 93. Boy was that a game changer....he will sign Nov 1st with a big D1 school. Velo is where its at and unless you are a lefty, "most" RHPs at 88 are a dime a dozen. That's not my opinion, it is what i hear over and over and over. IMHO, Spin rate is will become the new Velo. I cant wait to sign up for the trackman service this weekend at the PG event in Atlanta to see where he is.

 

My advice to your son would be to ignore all the chatter and focus on being the best pitcher he be....it is a grind and good things come to those who work.

To Nolan Ryan - I can tell you as a high school coach many games are won by kids even throwing in the 70's.  Problem is high school baseball just really isn't that good especially now with so many kids opting out and playing full time travel instead.  Fact is I don't care how good your control is or if you have a 'great' curve ball.  In division1 they would hit that all over the park.  However if your son goes to a juco and works hard to pick up 5mph he will come out the other side better off for it.  He's not that far away take heart!

I also didn't notice you said your son was a junior!  He can still be a late d1 signee!  I have one of my pitchers in that identical situation.  Only mine is 5'9" so it makes it even worse.  But he does have one major mechanical flaw we are working on and hopefully he comes back his senior year upper 80's.  Plus he is a straight A student.  I guarantee he will go d1 somewhere if he wants to (assuming he picks up those few mph).  The opportunity to take a kid at the end of your roster who will get academic money and not cost you scholarship money along with the fact he will always remain eligible is huge.  Then it will be up to him to work his way up the food chain there.