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Radar Guns Revisited

T TBPMember
Sorry my first post is so long.


After reading the velocity at 10 thread, I wanted to provide and alternate view from a dad with a radar gun. I purchased a glove radar a little over a year ago and I consider it to possibly be my best baseball related purchase, certainly one of the most useful. With all due respect to Dr. Andrews, radar guns are not culprits. They are measurement devices that provide one with a single piece of information, the speed of the ball. What is done with that information is done by those interpreting the data, not by the gun. I measure the speed of all my son’s pitches and not once has my gun commented one way or the other. It certainly hasn’t yelled out “Throw it harder little Johnny! You little slacker! All the other boys throw harder than you, you big sissy!

Let me tell you what we have used the data for.

One of the most confusing things for the young pitcher is that they feel they are throwing harder when they muscle up to fire it in there. The radar gun gives us empirical data to demonstrate to young pitchers that they indeed throw harder when they relax and allow the proper kinetic sequence to develop. This can be used to guide them to develop delayed shoulder rotation. This has the benefit of reducing anterior shoulder stress and medial elbow stress. It also allows the young pitcher to throw with more control. When I was able to empirically demonstrate to my son that speed was indeed just as fast with a relaxed and supple arm his whole game improved. My son now realizes that his best fastball comes when everything sequences just right.

I help as pitching coach a little bit and a crucial part of pitching success is the ability to change speeds. Younger pitchers are often taught various change up grips with the instruction to throw the ball with fastball arm speed. This is indeed the proper way to throw the change up. So little Johnny trots off to the game with his new circle change grip and wonders why his coach did not teach him to duck every time he throws his change because guys are killing it. The fact is most small handed fellows are not able to achieve enough speed reduction with grip alone. With one fellow in particular his circle change was only 2-3 MPH slower than his fastball. The radar gun showed him exactly what was happening. When he learned how to reduce effort slightly without tipping the batters off, he achieved a 6-8 MPH reduction and became an extremely effective pitcher. The game became fun for him again. Isn’t that what the game is supposed to be?

I often use the radar gun in warm ups also, to help ensure that my son does not throw too hard too soon. We have also been able to look at effects of stretching and long toss warm ups on pitching speed. This has helped improve his pre game routine when he starts a game.

As a side note all of this has provided us with a more enjoyable time while throwing together. My son has a more emotionally even and informed approach to pitching because he has access to information about his pitches. Instead of being emotionally scarred or obsessed with velocity, he now knows what impact his actions have on his speed and he can put it to work for him.

The radar gun is not a silver bullet for instant pitching success but it can be a fun and useful for working on pitching.

Good Pitching,

TBP
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BOFBOF10,000+ posts
TBP:

Welcome, nice job on the first post. I don't think anyone was saying that radar guns are bad, they are just silly for 10 YO's. In fact IMO it is bordering on insane for this age group. It is pretty simple, if you want to improve something measure it. As you point out they can be used for measuring pitch differentials, ball off the bat speed, velo on pitches other than fastballs, so there is nothing inherently wrong with them. HS and up is probably the appropriate time to use them however.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Welcome.
I agree with BOF, while it is certainly a very useful tool, it is not necessary at age 10. I agree with all that you say, however, the same thing can be achieved without the use of the radar gun for very young pitchers.

Of course we all have opinions on the matter and that's ok and we live in a world with them readily available so many feel that this makes for better pitchers.

BTW, anyone catch ESPN's Outside the Lines on the story about future HOFer Manny Rivera? He doesn't equate his success with the use of the radar gun when younger, a long toss program, throwing from a mound often, etc. I also beleive he actually began pitching when older, when at 19 he was signed by the yankees.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
TPM,

Sometimes things seem to get a bit personal with these posts. It’s hard to write in such a way to be polite at all times. I do think that some of your posts seem to have a “Gospel” type tone. That always makes things more debatable to those with an open mind. Since, I do know you and understand your passion for baseball and wanting to help others, I still love and respect you for who you are. Please don’t change anything, nothing I post is personal unless it would be something positive. Often don’t even know whose post I am replying to.

That said…

Every story on every player is somewhat different than others.

That is the problem I have with examples even though I am guilty of using them too. I do think the examples tell a story, but not sure they ever prove a point. We can all find examples that fit our opinions. Truth is, just because one player did things a certain way, there is no reason to think that way will work best for someone else.

Mariano Rivera was a shortstop as a youngster. He didn’t pitch at all in his youth. He signed a FA contract for $3,000 in 1990. He basically tore up the minor leagues and surprised everyone.

Two years later (1992) he had elbow surgery. This even though he did not pitch as a youngster. Obviously, he came out of that fine and has become one of the very best relief pitchers ever; some would say the very best.

He had no training as a young kid. No one told him what to do or not do. He became a great pitcher using basically one pitch (cutter).

So if one were to follow his path…

Become a fisherman after high school.

Do not pitch until you are 19 years old.

Have no training or instruction.

Sign for practically nothing.

Have elbow surgery at 21 years old.

Only master one pitch.

Become a Hall of Famer.

Every story is unique. I’m not sure there is anything out there that we can say is the right way. It (being successful) has been done in just about every way imaginable.

That risk vs reward thing is very difficult to figure out. I appreciate and respect the medical profession as much as anyone. Dr Andrews is a legend and deserves everyone’s respect. However, IMO the recommendations of medical people involves limiting risk more than producing rewards.

Would any doctor suggest that a weight lifter do what is necessary to become an Olympic Champion weight lifter?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
TPM,

Sometimes things seem to get a bit personal with these posts. It’s hard to write in such a way to be polite at all times. I do think that some of your posts seem to have a “Gospel” type tone. That always makes things more debatable to those with an open mind. Since, I do know you and understand your passion for baseball and wanting to help others, I still love and respect you for who you are. Please don’t change anything, nothing I post is personal unless it would be something positive. Often don’t even know whose post I am replying to.

That said…

Every story on every player is somewhat different than others.

That is the problem I have with examples even though I am guilty of using them too. I do think the examples tell a story, but not sure they ever prove a point. We can all find examples that fit our opinions. Truth is, just because one player did things a certain way, there is no reason to think that way will work best for someone else.

Mariano Rivera was a shortstop as a youngster. He didn’t pitch at all in his youth. He signed a FA contract for $3,000 in 1990. He basically tore up the minor leagues and surprised everyone.

Two years later (1992) he had elbow surgery. This even though he did not pitch as a youngster. Obviously, he came out of that fine and has become one of the very best relief pitchers ever; some would say the very best.

He had no training as a young kid. No one told him what to do or not do. He became a great pitcher using basically one pitch (cutter).

So if one were to follow his path…

Become a fisherman after high school.

Do not pitch until you are 19 years old.

Have no training or instruction.

Sign for practically nothing.

Have elbow surgery at 21 years old.

Only master one pitch.

Become a Hall of Famer.

Every story is unique. I’m not sure there is anything out there that we can say is the right way. It (being successful) has been done in just about every way imaginable.

That risk vs reward thing is very difficult to figure out. I appreciate and respect the medical profession as much as anyone. Dr Andrews is a legend and deserves everyone’s respect. However, IMO the recommendations of medical people involves limiting risk more than producing rewards.

Would any doctor suggest that a weight lifter do what is necessary to become an Olympic Champion weight lifter?


You are right about using examples, as done in another post, with Ryan and Johson remaining helathy, there are some exceptions to every rule. I did say all pitchers are different.

I beleive in limiting risks when a player is younger, it also can produce greater rewards, that's just the way I see it, it's not gospel. JMO.
I also stated that most pitchers do end up with some type of injury, and said where you are when that injury occurs may be very important. JMO.
Wish my player could only throw one pitch and become a future HOFer.
JMO.

I love you too. Smile
JMO.

I have no dog in this fight, so I will bow out, thinking about it, why should I care if someone's player blows their arm out before he gets an opportunity that he has worked for many years? They will someday realize that at one point in time the workload becomes more than they or their could ever imagine, and I know that some will look back and wonder if they placed too much emphasis on too much, too early, whatever that encompases.
JMO.
Last edited by TPM
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
TBP,
As I'm sure you've figured out over time the glove radar is very sensitive to moving the glove as you go to catch the ball. Probably the best way to use the glove radar is to strap it around a bucket you are sitting on. It sure costs a whole lot less than a radar gun. When we used one of those we usually figured it was reading about 4 mph less than a gun.
T TBPMember
Thanks to all for the warm welcome.

I guess you can call me crazy but if I have a tool that increases a player's enjoyment, understanding and performance without risk, I am going to use it, regardless of age.

In every 10 yr old and up league I know of, kids pitch. As long as kids are pitching they should be coached to do it in as safe a manner as possible. This includes both mechanics and performance. Good mechanics help them to pitch with as low an impact on their arms as possible and good performance (getting batters out) increases their enjoyment and lowers their pitch count per inning.

Young pitchers have two main methods for getting batters out without resorting to breaking pitches. They can overpower hitters with speed or they can disrupt timing with fastball-change up combinations. The only way to objectively measure the differentials between fastball and change up is with some type of measurement device. The only way to empirically demonstrate the results of delayed shoulder rotation is with a gun. What we should be doing is using every tool available to improve our player’s experience. We should be encouraging parents and coaches to grow in their understanding of the art and science of pitching. The radar gun can be a useful tool in this. It is too bad more people are not using them as they could.


Cadad,

Thanks for mentioning the issues with the glove radar. If you can get the glove in the direct line of travel pretty early, you get pretty good readings. You do sort of have to average things out though to get the truest picture of what is happening. I have a good read on variations introduced by movement at this point. I have also cross calibrated a couple of different times with Jugs and raw readings seem to be at about 6 mph below peak for the pitching distance we use. In truth, we use it more for differentials and relative baseline than for an absolute velocity reading. There are differences with all guns and the algorithms used to calculate peak velocities so it is all a bit relative. For us the convenience of use out weighs the other issues.

Good luck to all,
TBP
Last edited by TBP
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TBP:
Thanks to all for the warm welcome.

I guess you can call me crazy but if I have a tool that increases a player's enjoyment, understanding and performance without risk, I am going to use it, regardless of age.

In every 10 yr old and up league I know of, kids pitch. As long as kids are pitching they should be coached to do it in as safe a manner as possible. This includes both mechanics and performance. Good mechanics help them to pitch with as low an impact on their arms as possible and good performance (getting batters out) increases their enjoyment and lowers their pitch count per inning.

Young pitchers have two main methods for getting batters out without resorting to breaking pitches. They can overpower hitters with speed or they can disrupt timing with fastball-change up combinations. The only way to objectively measure the differentials between fastball and change up is with some type of measurement device. He only way to empirically demonstrate the results of delayed shoulder rotation is with a gun. What we should be doing is using every tool available to improve our player’s experience. We should be encouraging parents and coaches to grow in their understanding of the art and science of pitching. The radar gun can be a useful tool in this. It is too bad more people are not using them as they could.


Cadad,

Thanks for mentioning the issues with the glove radar. If you can get the glove in the direct line of travel pretty early, you get pretty good readings. You do sort of have to average things out though to get the truest picture of what is happening. I have a good read on variations introduced by movement at this point. I have also cross calibrated a couple of different times with Juggs and raw readings seem to be at about 6 mph below peak for the pitching distance we use. In truth, we use it more for differentials and relative baseline than for an absolute velocity reading. There are differences with all guns and the algorithms used to calculate peak velocities so it is all a bit relative. For us the convenience of use out weighs the other issues.

Good luck to all,
TBP


I will be perfectly honest with you....
I couldn't agree more!

The first time my son ever had a real gun on him pitching from the mound was before his 11u season. We were training in an indoor facility and the Dad who ran the joint had a radar gun to calibrate the pitching machines to what people wanted it to throw. Puttint two and two together, it was only a matter of time before someone with the gun in hand pointed it at the pitchers on the end to see what they were throwing. One day this happened with my son. He was getting warmed up on the mound getting conditioned for the season and one of the coaches started gunning him.

As he warmed up the pitches gradually increased in mph one by one until he was maxing out but still in rythm hitting the strike zone. He was also gunned on his offspeed pitches. It was through this experience that we learned a little something about his Change-up and corrected it that season wich led to great success in games. Because of this success he had fewer long innings and thus- a fresher arm. What we learned was that he was not throwing his CU fast enough and the gun provided the proof of it. I was trying to teach my son that an effective CU was roughly 8-10% slower than the fastball and not 8-10 mph slower for this age. So, with gun readings present we were able to dial in the correct mph to get that 10% drop from his fastball velocity.

That season, in city LL play, all the kids who knew him went around saying "he has a new pitch", when in reality it was just an improved existing pitch he already had. Thanks to the gun he was able to have a greater and more enjoyable season. Guns aren't bad for the sport even at an early age.
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
Here's an example of what happens when you put a radar gun on someone who is used to being gunned. Toward the end of my son's pitching lesson yesterday I started gunning. His velocity was what is usually is during a pen when he's working on location. At the end of the pen we told him to go ahead and throw hard for 8 or 10 pitches. The velocity went up 4 mph and every pitch was the same speed. He threw about 60% strikes. It was about 2 mph less than game speed on a good day. We didn't tell him what he was throwing so the only pitch that was a bit faster was the one where we told him to throw an 0-2 high fastball.

Once they get used to the gun it really doesn't affect how hard they throw unless the situation calls for it.
Last edited by CADad
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
My question after reading this thread and the balance of "velocity at age 10" is why are so many HS age pitchers ending up in the offices of Dr. Andrews, Kerlan-Jobe and sports medicine doctors all over the US with surgery resulting. Who are those players/sons/parents?
Everyone here is advocating all the baseball knowledge you get from a gun, with some getting it from age 10.
Some want to take the Andrews comment about guns and use it literally. However, none of the medical studies to date(sans one for MLB pitchers) equates only velocity with TJ/arm issues.
Rather, what the medical articles are describing for the epidemic of arm issues/surgeries is the environment of youth baseball. It is multi-factorial and the velocity/the gun is one element.
To illustrate a point: PG and other scouting services use past history and baseball ability to scout and rank players. If the player gets an 8, it means something to most everyone with baseball knowledge, is considered reliable, and it is useful. On the other hand everyone knows it is not a predictor, it is not a guarantee. But it is solid baseball information coming from a solid baseball evaluation source. The player does not get the 8 based on one baseball skill, normally. It is multi-factorial from people who know what they are doing. The 8 provides information based on reliable assessment by reliable baseball folks.
If Dr Andrews and those at Kerlan-Jobe do a double blind study of the HS players being seen in their office for arm surgery and compare/contrast with HS players/pitchers not being seen, and they publish the results based on identifiable risk factors(plural), it seems to be interpreted in a completely different or selective way than the 8.
The Andrews and other articles are no guarantee of arm issues or being free from them.
They don't specify one issue for throwing and pitching, except to the extent that many different factors get "lumped" into the concept of overuse.
While I recognize most posting here feel their son is the exception, an ever increasing number of pitchers/players/sons are ending up in in doctor's offices with major career ending conditions.
Even if most posting here do not need the information, perhaps those not posting, but reading, will benefit from knowing there is information from pretty reliable sources to consult.
SultanofSwatSultanofSwat10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
While I recognize most posting here feel their son is the exception, an ever increasing number of pitchers/players/sons are ending up in in doctor's offices with major career ending conditions.


I keep hearing this argument. It's really bad logic.

They are there because the "over obsessed" dads want Little Johnny to play MLB ball and make millions of $$$$. Back in the old days, the kid's arm was blown, and they switched positions or sports.
Last edited by SultanofSwat
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
Posted July 19, 2010 03:16 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
While I recognize most posting here feel their son is the exception, an ever increasing number of pitchers/players/sons are ending up in in doctor's offices with major career ending conditions.



I keep hearing this argument. It's really bad logic.

They are there because the "over obsessed" dads want Little Johnny to play MLB ball and make millions of $$$$. Back in the old days, the kid's arm was blown, and they switched positions or sports.
----------------------------------------------------


the day my son was operated on the Dr. did 11 TJ surgery's. i find it hard to believe 11 of them subjected their kids to surgery because of a future career in baseball. or the Dr. doing it for that reason.

my son had a job in pro ball, so that was his career. in my opinion,the reason he needed TJ surgery was 2 fold. my ignorance in arm care, and the avid persuit of the golden 6 dollar trophy. by grown men who were also ignorant about arm care. he was ridden like a rented mule.

while radar guns may serve some useful purpose,young men will throw as hard as they can to light them up. most coaches/scouts don't bring out the gun to shoot their curve ball.


it is a great thing to spend time with our son's and the game of baseball. do it because you enjoy it. because most of the things you do before the age of 15 don't really matter to the people that are going to pay him at 19. college or pro.
T TBPMember
infielddad,

Good post.

I don't know all the answers. I know my son is not an exception to any of the rules. The number one rule for us is no throwing with pain. So far that has not been an issue. I have taken some steps to reduce competitive pitching and may go further. I do not have any aspirations for my son to play pro ball. It does not seem to be the life I would wish for him. However, if it is something he wishes to do, I want the opportunity to be there for him.



20dad,

Great signature line.

I agree that if coaches only periodically bring out the gun to check the fastball, players are going to try to light it up. But in my experience with only 15 kids or so, once you talk to them about it and what they need to focus on the extra effort goes away. I'm sure at showcases and such the tendency to want to overthrow is still there.

What things indicate to you the injury to your son was caused by earlier events. This seems to be a common theme and I'd like to know more about the progression of guys who have actually suffered UCL injuries. I hope your son is recovering well.


Best regards,

TBP
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
tbp

he had a summer coach that thought nothing of throwing him 9 innings. to help build arm strength, he was a hard thrower. in the later innings he would lose velocity and lean on the curve. 170 plus pitches was normal.

at that time i didn't consider/know the impact this would have in years to come. he built velocity annualy,up to the low 90's. he heard the pop on the last pitch of a jc regional. yet luckily in front of 5 scouts and 2 cross checkers, nobody knew, us included.

the point is, these injury's are the accumilation of over use, throwing to hard before the body is really ready (thats my opinion,not medicaly proven), sometimes they just happen,no matter what you do.

knowledge is key, a little luck helps too.

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