firstly, to all the used car salesmen, no offense intended.
Has anyone ever had a coach ask their player, "How much of a scholarship or money were you expecting?"
That would, personally, absolutely rub me the wrong way.
What better way to say "we don't care" than by seeing what's the lowest you'll take
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Coaches always don't have a lot to offer. They will ask. They don't want to waste their time or yours if you are expecting more than they can give you.
So I see that as a good thing.
JMO
My wife thinks all college coaches are used car salesmen and I strongly disagree with her.
I think more like horse traders.
Should be no surprise. Get used to it.
As TPM pointed out it is a good thing they are interested in your horse.
The implication of used car salesman is coaches are not honest. Some aren't. Most are. The biggest problem is recruits and their parents don't always ask the right questions. Then they hear what they want to hear and not what the recruiting coach is saying. Ultimately they believe the coach lied when what really occurred is they misinterpreted what the coach was saying.
RJM,
I'm not saying that coaches are dishonest. I think dishonesty would be a killer - just like HS coaches who tell college coaches that their players are better than they really are end up killing their future credibility. I just think that some tactics might be a little slimy.
I feel that if someone takes a crass and impersonal position, or starts dickering over my son, then it would send up red-flags as to 1) that coach's personality, (2) the value they have for my son and (3) the value they have for humans in general.
How much were/are you expecting is another way of saying, "What's the least you'll take?" I know they've got to make ends meet and would love for a first round LHP (not my son, btw) to agree to walk-on, but make your offer and counter-up if you need to, but don't try to play hard-ball with us.
How would the coach take it if a recruit's dad said (with sincerity and tact) "Coach, we really don't like it when folks play games with us. What's your absolute best offer?" They'd be offended.
I don't like being jerked around. Especially when it comes to my kid. I prefer southern genteel when it comes to interactions anyway. There are other ways to bargain, in my opinion.
I am not sure most really understand how hard it is to divide up 27 25% minimum scholarships with max 11.7 to work with.
The minimum is 25%. There are many players that will not accept that amount.
The issue is that parents expect this to be a negotiating battle and in most cases they have no clue what they are doing. You have to understand there are 3-5 other guys just like you son out there and he isn't going to haggle with you. Be honest when they ask, if he really likes you son and the amount he has to offer is not enough he will do what he can to help in finding other ways to get money. Understand that the coach may havery 3 players on his board. A is their priority, B if A doesn't take their offer and C the last alternative. He offers from there. If you are not comfortable, move on because you are not going to win, well unless you are that LHP stud.
If you approach this with a better attitude things will work out.
There is nothing wrong with asking that question. But there is something wrong with not answering honestly.
TPM posted:I am not sure most really understand how hard it is to divide up 27 25% minimum scholarships with max 11.7 to work with.
The minimum is 25%. There are many players that will not accept that amount.
The issue is that parents expect this to be a negotiating battle and in most cases they have no clue what they are doing. You have to understand there are 3-5 other guys just like you son out there and he isn't going to haggle with you. Be honest when they ask, if he really likes you son and the amount he has to offer is not enough he will do what he can to help in finding other ways to get money.
If you approach this with a better attitude things will work out.
There is nothing wrong with asking that question. But there is something wrong with not answering honestly.
I don't want a negotiating battle. That's why I would be offended by a coach using negotiating tactics with us. I agree, let's not haggle. So, don't pull a "Let me turn this thing around, throw the ball into their court and see if they will return a low-ball amount that I can run with" stunt. It screams haggling and negotiating. Tell us what he's worth to you and let us consider it. Give a person his value. The Lord abhors a dishonest scale.
I understand that there are only so many scholarships and too many players. I am sympathetic to this fact.
A coach would have a lot of ground to make up with me if he pulled something like that.
This is just me, though. Others may be fine with it.
So no one actually did this, you are just making an assumption this happens and its bad?
What's your point?
Teaching Elder,
Listen to TPM. Coaches have to fit players into a budget every year. Not only does the coach have to fit in recruited players, but he has to fit in his existing scholarship players who may get more or may get less depending on a variety of factors. To BOFs point, he is talking to your son which is showing interest. This is part of the negotiating that happens with college athletic scholarships. In our experience, the starting offer was a negotiated minimum and the number increased over time as we went through the process with a handful of schools. You need to get used to it (don't take offense to it....this is business) as I don't see the system changing anytime soon. If you don't like their number, move on just as I would advise you to do the same with regard to their academics or any other facet of the college. If your son has options then he has leverage.
Good luck!
"Facts are stubbon things" - John Adams
TPM posted:So no one actually did this, you are just making an assumption this happens and its bad?
What's your point?
No, I've overheard coaches talking between themselves about this tactic.
My point is that I wouldn't really want to negotiate over my son either. Let's skip the garbage, be honest, and appreciate one another's value and constraints.
I don't care if someone says, "This is what your son is worth to our program in comparison to other guys we have or are recruiting." I am, however, taken aback by someone essentially saying, "Let me see if I can steal your son." Heck if someone's really honest and in need, I might even be willing to help out. But don't try to cheat me.
So you overheard this as a tactic from a private conversation between coaches? Dl, Dll? From your homestate? But this never actually happened with your son?
BTW, has your son begun the recruiting process? And do you sell car?
So you overheard this as a tactic from a private conversation between coaches? Dl, Dll? From your homestate? But this never actually happened with your son?
BTW, has your son begun the recruiting process? And do you sell car?
Why are people so vague in their posts? This never happened to you, why would you let us assume that?
Nah, I'm a pastor. My son is just starting the process.
I didn't really catch where they were from, hence their divisions.
I suggest you take your time to actually learn and understand the process.
Will certainly be working on learning as we move through the process. Appreciate the board and the knowledge that is shared here.
Like any business there are good and bad. For example on Yelp people rage at the bad restaurants/ones. Many people (us included) have a "if I knew then what I know now" feeling. Once you narrow your sons choices try to speak to some current players to get an inside scoop. Remember the good ones who love the game and kids outnumber the bad.
Suggest a valuable question to ask is how many 1B, catchers or other (your sons) position are you recruiting in the 201x class. Your son (and you) will be happier overall with a fair shot at playing time.
Teaching elder,
Teaching Elder posted:firstly, to all the used car salesmen, no offense intended.
Has anyone ever had a coach ask their player, "How much of a scholarship or money were you expecting?"
That would, personally, absolutely rub me the wrong way.
What better way to say "we don't care" than by seeing what's the lowest you'll take
Good topic, Teaching Elder.
I think it can be difficult for some of us to completely digest (it has been with me at times) but we are all "salesmen" in most aspects of our lives. Growing up, we have to sell our parents that we deserve to be given the next level of trust and freedom to do our own thing. We have to sell our English teacher that our paper deserves an A. We have to sell our girl/guy that we are the right ones to marry, sell our prospective boss to hire us, sell our kids to buy into a desired behavior, sell our players to buy into what we are teaching and how we want them to play, etc., etc. If you think about it, almost every interaction in life has some element of "selling" to it.
It becomes even more difficult to associate certain segments of society with being "sales driven" than others. My wife has worked in the medical field forever. I hated learning about the inner workings of the business of healthcare. People are sick. They need help. They should get the best help there is. That's all I wanted to know. Same with church. You can relate to this, Teaching Elder. The message from the pastor should be pure and heartfelt. Not delivered in the manner they learn at "preaching school". I didn't want to think of it in a manner that they would use selling techniques to convince the congregation. Well, guess what? Most pastors today spend time learning "selling techniques" before ordination. That's not what they call the classes but, let's face it...
Of course, we have all learned here at HSBBW that the recruiting process is certainly, largely, a business. Teaching Elder, I think the particular approach you are taking offense to is somewhat a matter of interpretation. Yes, it is certainly a leverage move but it is also a question used to determine reciprocal interest and to determine if the player has reasonable expectations and, if not, time to save both parties time and move on.
Any offer is a good offer, in that it is a starting point for a conversation. As a seller, the best conversations start with knowing what your (blank) is worth and what you want for it.
signed,
Real Estate Guy
College itself is a negotiation. A friend's son was offered a music scholarship Roma school he loved. They still couldn't afford what they would have had to pay, so my friend, a salesperson, called and said "my son loves your school. Here's what we have to have and he'll be there as a freshman. Will you do it?"
And they did.
Maybe the right question is "what do you need?" Rather than "what do you expect?"
What's the difference when an employer asks about salary expectations in an interview?
At the end of the day, is the response to the coach that you will be evaluating all factors (baseball, academics, money, location, girls, etc.) when making a decision.
Maybe the right question is "what do you need?" Rather than "what do you expect?"
That's a good suggestion. I can live with that question.
Golfman25 posted:What's the difference when an employer asks about salary expectations in an interview?
At the end of the day, is the response to the coach that you will be evaluating all factors (baseball, academics, money, location, girls, etc.) when making a decision.
I don't care for that question from an employer either but I'm usually not in a good position on that question.
Min all fairness, the employer would be pretty ticked if I asked them what's the least amount of work you'll take from me.
Teaching Elder posted:Golfman25 posted:What's the difference when an employer asks about salary expectations in an interview?
At the end of the day, is the response to the coach that you will be evaluating all factors (baseball, academics, money, location, girls, etc.) when making a decision.
I don't care for that question from an employer either but I'm usually not in a good position on that question.
Min all fairness, the employer would be pretty ticked if I asked them what's the least amount of work you'll take from me.
But your original scenario was "How much of a scholarship or money were you expecting?" , not "what is the least amount you will take?".
Also, the coach is the employer and the player the employee. It is fairly common for employers to ask prospective employees what their salary expectations are. In fact, it is a standard question on most work applications.
cabbagedad posted:Teaching elder,
Teaching Elder posted:firstly, to all the used car salesmen, no offense intended.
Has anyone ever had a coach ask their player, "How much of a scholarship or money were you expecting?"
That would, personally, absolutely rub me the wrong way.
What better way to say "we don't care" than by seeing what's the lowest you'll take
Good topic, Teaching Elder.
I think it can be difficult for some of us to completely digest (it has been with me at times) but we are all "salesmen" in most aspects of our lives. Growing up, we have to sell our parents that we deserve to be given the next level of trust and freedom to do our own thing. We have to sell our English teacher that our paper deserves an A. We have to sell our girl/guy that we are the right ones to marry, sell our prospective boss to hire us, sell our kids to buy into a desired behavior, sell our players to buy into what we are teaching and how we want them to play, etc., etc. If you think about it, almost every interaction in life has some element of "selling" to it.
It becomes even more difficult to associate certain segments of society with being "sales driven" than others. My wife has worked in the medical field forever. I hated learning about the inner workings of the business of healthcare. People are sick. They need help. They should get the best help there is. That's all I wanted to know. Same with church. You can relate to this, Teaching Elder. The message from the pastor should be pure and heartfelt. Not delivered in the manner they learn at "preaching school". I didn't want to think of it in a manner that they would use selling techniques to convince the congregation. Well, guess what? Most pastors today spend time learning "selling techniques" before ordination. That's not what they call the classes but, let's face it...
Of course, we have all learned here at HSBBW that the recruiting process is certainly, largely, a business. Teaching Elder, I think the particular approach you are taking offense to is somewhat a matter of interpretation. Yes, it is certainly a leverage move but it is also a question used to determine reciprocal interest and to determine if the player has reasonable expectations and, if not, time to save both parties time and move on.
I didn't learn any sales tactics at my seminary.
In homiletics, "preaching", I did learn to use illustrations to explain things and drive home points. I learned that people have TV show attention spans that expect a break every 8 minutes or so. Therefore, you'd better use an illustration to help keep their attention.
I always try to preach from the heart. Even if it's a sermon I've preached before.
Teaching Elder posted:TPM posted:So no one actually did this, you are just making an assumption this happens and its bad?
What's your point?
No, I've overheard coaches talking between themselves about this tactic.
My point is that I wouldn't really want to negotiate over my son either. Let's skip the garbage, be honest, and appreciate one another's value and constraints.
I don't care if someone says, "This is what your son is worth to our program in comparison to other guys we have or are recruiting." I am, however, taken aback by someone essentially saying, "Let me see if I can steal your son." Heck if someone's really honest and in need, I might even be willing to help out. But don't try to cheat me.
The coach is trying to bring in as much talent as possible under scholarship and budget constraints. The less he has to offer a player or two might mean the opportunity to bring in more talent. The coach feeds his family with this job. He keeps his job by bringing in talent and winning. It's not personal. It's just business.
Here's a real scenario. I'd like someone whose son hasn't negotiated with a college coach yet to answer. To the experienced posters, please don't answer.
Player had a severe injury. He missed the post junior year showcase season. In August after his senior year his former travel coach makes some calls. Two weeks before classes start a coach makes this offer. What does it mean?
I may only have one roster spot available. You will have to try to walk on this fall. But I'll have a roster spot available the following year.
I assume it means come here, show me your skills this year and you MIGHT get to play and if you do well, then next year I will have a spot available (only if you've proven yourself this year). It's a shot for a kid who might not have any others. Kid has to decide if he's willing to take the risk and if he's wiling to earn his position.
Teaching Elder posted:cabbagedad posted:Teaching elder,
Teaching Elder posted:firstly, to all the used car salesmen, no offense intended.
Has anyone ever had a coach ask their player, "How much of a scholarship or money were you expecting?"
That would, personally, absolutely rub me the wrong way.
What better way to say "we don't care" than by seeing what's the lowest you'll take
Good topic, Teaching Elder.
I think it can be difficult for some of us to completely digest (it has been with me at times) but we are all "salesmen" in most aspects of our lives. Growing up, we have to sell our parents that we deserve to be given the next level of trust and freedom to do our own thing. We have to sell our English teacher that our paper deserves an A. We have to sell our girl/guy that we are the right ones to marry, sell our prospective boss to hire us, sell our kids to buy into a desired behavior, sell our players to buy into what we are teaching and how we want them to play, etc., etc. If you think about it, almost every interaction in life has some element of "selling" to it.
It becomes even more difficult to associate certain segments of society with being "sales driven" than others. My wife has worked in the medical field forever. I hated learning about the inner workings of the business of healthcare. People are sick. They need help. They should get the best help there is. That's all I wanted to know. Same with church. You can relate to this, Teaching Elder. The message from the pastor should be pure and heartfelt. Not delivered in the manner they learn at "preaching school". I didn't want to think of it in a manner that they would use selling techniques to convince the congregation. Well, guess what? Most pastors today spend time learning "selling techniques" before ordination. That's not what they call the classes but, let's face it...
Of course, we have all learned here at HSBBW that the recruiting process is certainly, largely, a business. Teaching Elder, I think the particular approach you are taking offense to is somewhat a matter of interpretation. Yes, it is certainly a leverage move but it is also a question used to determine reciprocal interest and to determine if the player has reasonable expectations and, if not, time to save both parties time and move on.
I didn't learn any sales tactics at my seminary.
In homiletics, "preaching", I did learn to use illustrations to explain things and drive home points. I learned that people have TV show attention spans that expect a break every 8 minutes or so. Therefore, you'd better use an illustration to help keep their attention.
I always try to preach from the heart. Even if it's a sermon I've preached before.
Teaching Elder, I looked up "homiletics" and it referenced rhetoric and persuasion. It is selling. Using illustrations to explain things and drive home points is sales tactics 101. Like I said, it's not what they call the classes but...
I do think almost every pastor preaches from the heart. It's just a turnoff when you see some of the same trained techniques and mechanics used in the process. Let's face it. There is a business element to this as well. And most of us would prefer not to think of it that way.
That said, I wish you could tell some other pastors about the 8 minute break strategy. I'm guilty of that attention span thing
Teaching Elder posted:No, I've overheard coaches talking between themselves about this tactic.
I'm very curious as to where you were that you could hear this conversation and be sure you were hearing it in the proper context.
I say this as an umpire who had a hypothetical conversation with another umpire (well, the subject was hypothetical, not the conversation itself) that was partially overheard and interpreted that I was referring to a fired college coach and his replacement derogatorily. In reality, I was relating a story about after fired coach was fired, I almost had to press disorderly conduct charges on him after he accosted me because I threw his son out of a game, and his replacement (who I've umpired since we were at the HS level) was in attendance and fired coach tried to throw him under the bus as the instigator (not me, as the eavesdropper alleged.)
Sorry to be vague and a little confusing (I'm sure you can get why,) but you can see why hearing and interpreting a conversation without knowing the color of it is not fair nor appropriate to those having it. For all you know, they could have been quoting or interpolating the actions of those that they find inappropriate.
Matt13 posted:Teaching Elder posted:No, I've overheard coaches talking between themselves about this tactic.
I'm very curious as to where you were that you could hear this conversation and be sure you were hearing it in the proper context.
I say this as an umpire who had a hypothetical conversation with another umpire (well, the subject was hypothetical, not the conversation itself) that was partially overheard and interpreted that I was referring to a fired college coach and his replacement derogatorily. In reality, I was relating a story about after fired coach was fired, I almost had to press disorderly conduct charges on him after he accosted me because I threw his son out of a game, and his replacement (who I've umpired since we were at the HS level) was in attendance and fired coach tried to throw him under the bus as the instigator (not me, as the eavesdropper alleged.)
Sorry to be vague and a little confusing (I'm sure you can get why,) but you can see why hearing and interpreting a conversation without knowing the color of it is not fair nor appropriate to those having it. For all you know, they could have been quoting or interpolating the actions of those that they find inappropriate.
That's quite a wild turn of events there...in more ways than one. I'm more than a little curious now.
For the same reasons as yours, I'd rather remain vague as to where I heard my stuff from as well. But, you make a good point that things can be heard things out of context.
This how it works. Car sales for most is based upon what is an affordable payment. The first thing they ask is where would you like your payment to be at. That gives the salesman an idea of how to put together the deal.
There is no difference between that and when a coach asks how much is the player and his family expecting in the way of scholarship.
You actually should be happy he has asked that question. Could mean what do I need to do to get you here, or could mean the end of the relationship.
You will never feel insulted if you truly understand each situation and be fair and honest and you may be treated fair and honest as well.
Just sayin.....
Iowamom23 posted:I assume it means come here, show me your skills this year and you MIGHT get to play and if you do well, then next year I will have a spot available (only if you've proven yourself this year). It's a shot for a kid who might not have any others. Kid has to decide if he's willing to take the risk and if he's wiling to earn his position.
They had seen him post soph year and were interested. The injury and surgery became an issue. Essentially you got it right. The initial offer had nothing guaranteed, not even a legit opportunity. It wasn't until having baseball money put on the table for the second year was the offer good enough. The coach was a good negotiator. He didn't give away anything until his hand was forced. Money on the table typically means the player has to screw up to not be rostered.
The point of this exercise is a lot of players and parents would have heard the initial offer and thought he's on the team the second year. And of course, ego tells the blind they will walk on the first year. The reality is the coach used the one walk on spot for a late blooming 6'6" 90 mph pitcher.
From our experience so many things impact how much a school is willing to offer. How good is the player and how good is the program are only two variables.
During a one on one conversation with a pitching coach at a top 25 program he told me I would be surprised at how many parents/kids would take less money to play for his program. At first I was like yeah sure college is expensive I need to get what I can get.
Fast forward two years and my son's academic money came back slightly less than what we thought. Briefly discussed supplementing with baseball money but would have basically meant the staff might lose a player down the road over what really is a small additional sum to my son. That was easy for me. I want coaches to get the best players they can to play alongside my son.
So my point is I think a coach asks in this fashion because you might be surprised what someone might take to join his program. It is in his best interest in getting each scholarship player for as little as possible. I don't think that makes them bad guys.
Your son may be "worth" more than the minimum 25% athletic scholarship, but the college may not have any money to give at a certain point in the recruiting process.
Many players are very grateful for 25% and fight to keep it each year.
Also, I don't know what position your son plays, but the most money typically goes to players that play "up the middle": pitchers, then catchers, SS, CF. Then it filters down. 100% athletic scholarship players are very rare, and often offered to players to keep them out of the draft. The % offered is good for the first year and can go up, down or stay the same for the years after.
I know of schools that offer 25% or 33% to all freshman. I know of schools that have offered a tiered approach: 35% 1st year, 45% second year, 55% third year and 65% senior year. But all schools are different.
So if the (fully funded schools) 11.7 is divided by 27 players, the average is 43%. If there are 34 on roster, there are SEVEN not getting any money at all.....and they are thrilled to be on the team.
Well pastor, I agree there are SOME coaches and programs out there that are used car salesmen...but the system will defend it's own so you won't get much support on it in public.
I will say they "used car guys" seem to be in the minority so you kind of have to feel it out for yourself. I can tell you My son has been warned about 2 different schools who are recruiting him, of the record of course with no names attached. the sad thing is one of schools is kind of a perfect fit for him so he may end up taking the gamble...buyer beware.
I have no issues with a question of this nature. I have no problems telling a coach (or having my son tell him) that money is a secondary factor in our college decision. Upfront is "is this a school my son wants to go to", followed by "does he want to play baseball here" . If he answered yes to both of them, then we can get into the money stuff. Fortunately I have been saving for my kids education since he was born and am in a decent position where we can afford to send him to school without a scholarship. I would want to see some "love" (ie 25%) to lock up a roster sport for at least his first year. Other then that money is not a factor in our college decision making. That said, I will take what they give me, can always use the college savings fund to buy my new sports car...
Scholarships are given to kids that don't actually need the financial assistance to get an education. Mom and Dad can foot the whole bill without blinking. In those cases, if the coach knows this or even if he doesn't, he is within ethical boundaries to ask the parents if they can live with less scholarship money so it can be spread around to potentially bring in another good ballplayer or two.
The 11.7 limit on D1 scholarships is a budget. All the coach wants to know is how much of the budget will be left after he signs your kid. Recruiting is salesmanship and even when a coach really, really wants your kid, he is still going to attempt to use as little of the budget to get him on campus. I said he would try, but a highly coveted recruit is not going to be missed over money, they'll make it happen.
Some good discussion. A lot of folks have seen the underbelly of college baseball recruiting. Some are involved in doing the recruiting. I am sure that many coaches are fine men. Probably most head coaches are good men as you have to be to stay in the business and be successful. There is a good enough likelihood that one will find some bad apples in the multitudes of younger assistants who are trying to break in. Those guys, I suspect, will get weeded out over the years.
I strive to keep things in perspective regarding my son's skills as I realize that daddy bias is ever lurking, waiting to drag me away and make a fool of me. I am not expecting a "full ride." I'm not "expecting" anything right now. I realize, though, that pretty much everybody can play college ball somewhere, and I also see that he's on track to develop, get bigger and become a college level quality player. Again, I'm not telling you that he's on his way to UVA. I'm just saying that he has potential to play somewhere. Others agree as well.
I understand, respect and sympathize with the constraints and limitations under which college baseball coaches must operate when it comes to divvying out financial aid packages. I just don't like games. I don't like feeling that I cheated someone else, and I sure don't want to be cheated either. I believe in fairness. I cannot stand that lazy weasel who wants to contact you about an item and ask, "What's the least you'll take?" I sure don't want some coach doing the same thing, especially when it comes to my son.
Be honest and fair. When you do this, like Backstopdad, I very well may be willing to help YOU out. I'm giving and generous to a fault sometimes. But, you try to steal or cheat...
joes87 posted:I have no issues with a question of this nature. I have no problems telling a coach (or having my son tell him) that money is a secondary factor in our college decision. Upfront is "is this a school my son wants to go to", followed by "does he want to play baseball here" . If he answered yes to both of them, then we can get into the money stuff. Fortunately I have been saving for my kids education since he was born and am in a decent position where we can afford to send him to school without a scholarship. I would want to see some "love" (ie 25%) to lock up a roster sport for at least his first year. Other then that money is not a factor in our college decision making. That said, I will take what they give me, can always use the college savings fund to buy my new sports car...
These things are smart investing. Good for you! Unfortunately, my path has been a bit different. Seminary. Investing in ministry work that has meant a pauper's pay, etc. I'm trying to catch up a bit. We will need financial help for any of my children to attend higher education. JUCO will almost certainly be in their futures for the first two years too.
Don't get me wrong though. I love pastoring and serving the Lord. I trust that it will all work out.
Also, if the kid gets any scholarship monies, I've pretty much got to buy him the sports car. Kid deserves something. 
I realize, though, that pretty much everybody can play college ball somewhere, and I also see that he's on track to develop, get bigger and become a college level quality player.
TE,
With all do respect, I disagree. A lot things go into playing at the next level. You should be telling your son that he has to work harder then everyone around him and still he might not make it. Yes, he has a chance, but nothing is a given.
As far as the OP, athletic scholarship money is a gift. A limited number of gifts to be handed out. Most coaches want to give as many as gifts they can. Therefore, asking the question up front is reasonable. As many have said, be thankful that they ask. Most in your shoes would be grateful for 25% minimum offer. I would guess that is a large percentage of the first year offers unless that player is top draft prospect.
I would also encourage your son to be the best in the class as well. That will help him just as much.
I'm told that Pastoring is very rewarding, just not financially. I am grateful for my pastor every day. Your sacrifice might bring greater opportunity with finacial aid for your son.
Good luck to your son!
