I have just heard that one Division 1 institution in Virginia has signed a class of 19. I hope these kids understand what that means.
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Welcome to the board Frisco. Aren't you a little far from home?
Big recruiting classes are the norm for a number of big-time schools. It pays to educate yourself as to what that means when committing to these programs. Its not necessarily a bad thing for all 19 of those players.
Educate yourself...and THIS is a great place for just that!
Big recruiting classes are the norm for a number of big-time schools. It pays to educate yourself as to what that means when committing to these programs. Its not necessarily a bad thing for all 19 of those players.
Educate yourself...and THIS is a great place for just that!
Thanks for the advice, justbaseball. One can always learn. But I can assure you as someone who has been involved in baseball for more than 20 years that the signing of a class of 19 does not bode well for most of those kids. By the way they graduated 5. It might be fine for the coach and the school but I will assure you there will be a lot of disappointed people in that program in a year or two.
Frisco,
Besides graduating 5, did they lose any players who are not eligible anymore, any current players to the draft, any incoming players to the draft? How many on their current reoster?
These are things that have to be investigated if you are interested in attending.
JMO.
Besides graduating 5, did they lose any players who are not eligible anymore, any current players to the draft, any incoming players to the draft? How many on their current reoster?
These are things that have to be investigated if you are interested in attending.
JMO.
Signing that many players as we all know is not uncommon. Some Colleges/Univ choose to sign many players while others choose that is not the route for them.
A few things to think about:
1. Do they plan on seeing all 19 on campus. Some may be high picks they don't plan on getting. Some may not have qualified yet and they are just taking a chance
2. Maybe they signed that large of class to create more competition in the fall. By doing so that may force some kids to leave that they don't want there and don't want to be the bad guy(s) by flat out telling them to leave. (or I'm sorry,,,,the kind way of doing that is notifiying the player of his soon to be lack of playing time and he would release to transfer anywhere he wanted to go.)
3. Maybe the coaching staff simply wants more competition alone.
I know the answer (I think) to what I am about to ask....here we go.....
Why would anyone have any concern about the size of a recruiting class?
What I think is, the parents and players (mostly parents) fear the competition.
A few things to think about:
1. Do they plan on seeing all 19 on campus. Some may be high picks they don't plan on getting. Some may not have qualified yet and they are just taking a chance
2. Maybe they signed that large of class to create more competition in the fall. By doing so that may force some kids to leave that they don't want there and don't want to be the bad guy(s) by flat out telling them to leave. (or I'm sorry,,,,the kind way of doing that is notifiying the player of his soon to be lack of playing time and he would release to transfer anywhere he wanted to go.)
3. Maybe the coaching staff simply wants more competition alone.
I know the answer (I think) to what I am about to ask....here we go.....
Why would anyone have any concern about the size of a recruiting class?
What I think is, the parents and players (mostly parents) fear the competition.
And don't get me wrong....I understand that the parents want what is best for their son...they want him to have the best chance to succeed etc...
And I also understand that you want a school where he gets the best combo of the following:
1. Best chance to play as early as possible
2. Where he will enjoy living for potentially 5 years
3. Likes the team, staff etc...
4. The least finacial burden on parents
5. Get the degree he desires
So I'm not ripping on anyone....Just throwing some things out there.
And I also understand that you want a school where he gets the best combo of the following:
1. Best chance to play as early as possible
2. Where he will enjoy living for potentially 5 years
3. Likes the team, staff etc...
4. The least finacial burden on parents
5. Get the degree he desires
So I'm not ripping on anyone....Just throwing some things out there.
I agree the college may not believe all of the in-coming recruits will ever make it to campus and some will be lost to the draft.
Also, IMO some DI’s will recruit in-state players that they may not be “real” high on just to keep them from going to another DI. The phrase “so they don’t end up on another team that beats them someday” is something I have heard often.
Also, IMO some DI’s will recruit in-state players that they may not be “real” high on just to keep them from going to another DI. The phrase “so they don’t end up on another team that beats them someday” is something I have heard often.
Frisco....
What school?
What school?
Low, I sent a private message to you. It is not my intent to disparage a school. Nor is my son considering this school. However, I do know some of the kids and am concerned about what their college careers may be like.
As to fear of competition. I think that is nonsense. If you go to a school with 40+ kids on the roster a number of them are going to be disappointed.
As to fear of competition. I think that is nonsense. If you go to a school with 40+ kids on the roster a number of them are going to be disappointed.
Low,
I think maybe the answer to the question might be for some that so much time and effort goes into the recruiting process that no one wants their son (or the player himself) to show up and have to compete against 40+ for a spot. I think a lot of players pass up opportunities to go to smaller programs, committ to larger programs, not
realizing this occurs.
Parents should be concerned, because in the end, they are paying for their son to attend that school and usually they chose that school for it's baseball program, not for it's academics or other things it has to offer.
And I also think the reality of becoming a redshirt makes parents and players uncomfortable.
I agree many coaches wait for someone to ask for a transfer, but I also agree that is wrong.
So therefore, good idea, if interested to find out why there were so many signed.
I think maybe the answer to the question might be for some that so much time and effort goes into the recruiting process that no one wants their son (or the player himself) to show up and have to compete against 40+ for a spot. I think a lot of players pass up opportunities to go to smaller programs, committ to larger programs, not
realizing this occurs.
Parents should be concerned, because in the end, they are paying for their son to attend that school and usually they chose that school for it's baseball program, not for it's academics or other things it has to offer.
And I also think the reality of becoming a redshirt makes parents and players uncomfortable.
I agree many coaches wait for someone to ask for a transfer, but I also agree that is wrong.
So therefore, good idea, if interested to find out why there were so many signed.
Thanks Frisco....
I think fear is good.....if you let it....
I think you must fear:
*failure
*competition
*staff (in a certain way)
I feel it kind of keeps you in check....Now it can certainly be a bad thing if you let it eat you up...
As long as that fear of failure or losing a spot can get you out of bed to go to class, do the right things off the field, work hard on the field etc.... it is a very good thing...
So I do not think that fear of competition is nonsense......
I think fear is good.....if you let it....
I think you must fear:
*failure
*competition
*staff (in a certain way)
I feel it kind of keeps you in check....Now it can certainly be a bad thing if you let it eat you up...
As long as that fear of failure or losing a spot can get you out of bed to go to class, do the right things off the field, work hard on the field etc.... it is a very good thing...
So I do not think that fear of competition is nonsense......
Low I either did not express my point well or you have misunderstood my meaning.
Competition is good. So is opportunity. I'm sure you have been around enough baseball teams to have seen some players you felt could play, but didn't get the opportunity. Frequently, it is simply about numbers (you might look at the Angels minor league infielders now).
If you were a young free-agent MI prospect would you choose to sign with the Angels over a team that was not stocked with MIs. If you follow the logic that competition is always good then I think you are taking a position that not many players would. The whole idea of a young man entering college to play baseball is to "play" baseball.
Competition is good. So is opportunity. I'm sure you have been around enough baseball teams to have seen some players you felt could play, but didn't get the opportunity. Frequently, it is simply about numbers (you might look at the Angels minor league infielders now).
If you were a young free-agent MI prospect would you choose to sign with the Angels over a team that was not stocked with MIs. If you follow the logic that competition is always good then I think you are taking a position that not many players would. The whole idea of a young man entering college to play baseball is to "play" baseball.
I completly understand.
I've been on the other side forever.
I've been on the other side forever.
Frisco said--
"The whole idea of a young man entering college to play baseball is to "play" baseball."
Wholeheartedly agree......But I want him to work for it...there is a happy medium.....
And understand what side I'm speaking from....
"The whole idea of a young man entering college to play baseball is to "play" baseball."
Wholeheartedly agree......But I want him to work for it...there is a happy medium.....
And understand what side I'm speaking from....
quote:I think a lot of players pass up opportunities to go to smaller programs, committ to larger programs, not realizing this occurs.
It is not just large D1 programs where this happens. My son's school is a small D3 where they are jumping from 25 on the roster this past year, to 46 (returning players + recruited freshmen + recruited JUCO transfers) this coming Fall. The 2nd-year head coach's goal is to build a program that can beat the nationally ranked D3 team which has won their conference for the past 10 years.
I have learned a lot about the realities of college baseball in the past two years - or actually, confirmed what I had read here many times.
My son chose a college baseball program out of high school where it looked like he would play right away, and seemed to be the "star recruit" of the then-head coach. That head coach left after 1 game freshman year for personal reasons. My son had a disappointing freshman season (10 innings pitched). I looked at the roster and saw that with his hard work over the summer and significant improvement, he should get some good chances sophomore year. I didn't realize that he would be competing against not just returnees plus incoming freshmen, but several good JUCO transfers at his position. Sophomore year was slightly better (20 innings pitched), but still disappointing. Next year is junior year, with the roster numbers I mentioned above. He continues to work his butt off to improve, and plans to compete for playing time.
But the other thing we had learned from this site, over and over, was "choose a college where you would still want to be if you could not play baseball for some reason". My son loves his school and wouldn't want to go anywhere else. He also loves his team and wants to be part of it. He definitely wants to compete for MORE playing time, and there have been days or weeks each of the past two seasons where a lack of playing time just about burned a hole in his stomach, or his heart, or wherever that pain was sitting. But he has stayed very positive, remained a team player, and worked his butt off to earn a better chance next year.
Okay, my point here wasn't about my son's experience, but ... large incoming recruiting classes, or surprise JUCO transfers at your son's position .. it DOES happen at programs of all sizes!
MNMom - You're correct as usual. I think the difference at many schools though is that the very large schools bring in more recruits and use the fall as a tryout sending kids packing at Christmas or at the end of the year. I know some small schools use the technique too, but I think fewer than your really competitive large schools.
The NAIA where my son will go in the fall has, I believe, 44 kids on the roster. However, they have a JV team where many of those kids know they will be playing and given time to improve.
I think what disturbs me about packing a roster full of kids is what the kids are told or not told. If a kid up front knows his role or that he's truly in the fight for a certain position that is one thing. When they bring in 20 knowing they'll get rid of 1/2 of those and lead each one to believe they're a star - that's just not right.
The NAIA where my son will go in the fall has, I believe, 44 kids on the roster. However, they have a JV team where many of those kids know they will be playing and given time to improve.
I think what disturbs me about packing a roster full of kids is what the kids are told or not told. If a kid up front knows his role or that he's truly in the fight for a certain position that is one thing. When they bring in 20 knowing they'll get rid of 1/2 of those and lead each one to believe they're a star - that's just not right.
quote:Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
off the topic a little, but a part of the big D1 discussion.
If a major top D1 offers a paid visit, some 30 days out by rule, should the recruit call and try to get a better read where they stand, i.e books only type player, or 50% or better player?
And the other part of that topic is how one handles the numerous requests for unpaid visits and early offers. Seems to me waiting that time frame for a paid visit is risky.
Any thoughts?
I feel there is no problem with asking what the scholarship opportunity might be. Especially if your son is getting the interest you said he is getting. Some may disagree, that's JMO.
As far as waiting, when son was being recruited some said up front they wanted a commitment by end of summer, others said no problem take your time. In fact, he didn't really care for the coaches who pressured him and he said no thank you. I know there is more pressure now to committ earlier and earlier.
If a paid by you for your son to visit the school before official visit may make a difference, by all means do it. I think this would apply to the ones that are high on your son's list.
I think that's why it is always a good idea to visit schools your son is interested in (or they him) before senior summer.
Lots of what you are experiencing is the high pressure of college recruiting. It is all not that pleasant. JMO.
Julie,
Thanks for bringing that up, not just seeing large rosters in the "bigger" schools anymore. At least some schools let players know about it before they come, some are just shocked when they get there!
Oldslugger wrote:
"off the topic a little, but a part of the big D1 discussion.
If a major top D1 offers a paid visit, some 30 days out by rule, should the recruit call and try to get a better read where they stand, i.e books only type player, or 50% or better player?
And the other part of that topic is how one handles the numerous requests for unpaid visits and early offers. Seems to me waiting that time frame for a paid visit is risky.
Any thoughts?"
OLDSLUGGER:
Very difficult to answer w/o more info.......
*If they want him on an official visit there is some genuine interest there.
*If they want him to come in on an unofficial visit then either the interest isn't as strong the prospect doesn't want to use it as an official visit. Maybe the interest is certainly there but making it an Official Visit is unecessary.
If you want to know what a school thinks of you then call them and ask them. But be prepared for something you may not want to hear.
They should not be afraid to answer virtually ANY question you ask them. It will be quite apparent if there is something shady.
Keep in mind (if i'm not mistaken, I've been out of it for a few years)....D-I's only have a certain number of official visits they can have in....I think it's something near 25 official visits.....Unofficial is obviously unrestricted.....I would RE: Someone in compliance or call NCAA if it's that important....probably would not come into play until later on in the school year/summer.
Signing period is not until NOV so you have some time. Don't rush.....take your time...
Any compliance questions:
go to www.ncaa.org and navigate to compliance or initial eligability etc... for specific rules.
Or call a compliance officer at a Div I school.
Or call the NCAA (compliance)
"off the topic a little, but a part of the big D1 discussion.
If a major top D1 offers a paid visit, some 30 days out by rule, should the recruit call and try to get a better read where they stand, i.e books only type player, or 50% or better player?
And the other part of that topic is how one handles the numerous requests for unpaid visits and early offers. Seems to me waiting that time frame for a paid visit is risky.
Any thoughts?"
OLDSLUGGER:
Very difficult to answer w/o more info.......
*If they want him on an official visit there is some genuine interest there.
*If they want him to come in on an unofficial visit then either the interest isn't as strong the prospect doesn't want to use it as an official visit. Maybe the interest is certainly there but making it an Official Visit is unecessary.
If you want to know what a school thinks of you then call them and ask them. But be prepared for something you may not want to hear.
They should not be afraid to answer virtually ANY question you ask them. It will be quite apparent if there is something shady.
Keep in mind (if i'm not mistaken, I've been out of it for a few years)....D-I's only have a certain number of official visits they can have in....I think it's something near 25 official visits.....Unofficial is obviously unrestricted.....I would RE: Someone in compliance or call NCAA if it's that important....probably would not come into play until later on in the school year/summer.
Signing period is not until NOV so you have some time. Don't rush.....take your time...
Any compliance questions:
go to www.ncaa.org and navigate to compliance or initial eligability etc... for specific rules.
Or call a compliance officer at a Div I school.
Or call the NCAA (compliance)
The big question is whether there's a legitimate reason for a class that large.
If they intend to have them compete, and to cut a bunch of them in the fall, that's OK as long as they've told the boys the cold hard truth going in. The concern would be with whether a lot of insincere promises have been made. I wouldn't assume that, but if my son's class size were 19 and he'd been promised the moon you'd better believe we'd be looking for answers, perhaps in time to make a change.
But I can imagine some other reasons for having a class size that large. Some of the general thought have already been laid out by others above. But specific to Virginia, I can think of Longwood, still transitioning to being a D-I program, and maybe needing a new host of recruits to play at that level. Or W&M, whose new coach got appointed last year really too late to recruit a full class of 2006 freshmen, and who may need to recruit "a class and a half" this year to catch up.
So, I'm wondering which school you're talking about, and what reasons they would give for a class of incoming recruits that large.
If they intend to have them compete, and to cut a bunch of them in the fall, that's OK as long as they've told the boys the cold hard truth going in. The concern would be with whether a lot of insincere promises have been made. I wouldn't assume that, but if my son's class size were 19 and he'd been promised the moon you'd better believe we'd be looking for answers, perhaps in time to make a change.
But I can imagine some other reasons for having a class size that large. Some of the general thought have already been laid out by others above. But specific to Virginia, I can think of Longwood, still transitioning to being a D-I program, and maybe needing a new host of recruits to play at that level. Or W&M, whose new coach got appointed last year really too late to recruit a full class of 2006 freshmen, and who may need to recruit "a class and a half" this year to catch up.
So, I'm wondering which school you're talking about, and what reasons they would give for a class of incoming recruits that large.
The school in question that is in VA is not doing anything that bad in my opinion.
The school only had 24 guys on their roster in last spring.
They lost 5 SRs.
You add 19 to that only have 38.
An unforeseen injury, academic casuality and you are down to a workable number that has competition.
I personally like 32-35....some have much more than 38 on a roster....
Oh well, what I'm basically saying is that it isn't as bad as it initially sounded.
The school only had 24 guys on their roster in last spring.
They lost 5 SRs.
You add 19 to that only have 38.
An unforeseen injury, academic casuality and you are down to a workable number that has competition.
I personally like 32-35....some have much more than 38 on a roster....
Oh well, what I'm basically saying is that it isn't as bad as it initially sounded.
Here is a question....Just for fun....Don't cheat and go to son's or a Univ website...try it on your own....
Give me a breakdown of your fantasy roster.
# of Pitchers and class breakdown
# of Catchers and class breakdown
# of Middle Infs and class breakdown
# of OF's and class breakdown
# of Corner Infs and class breakdown
Do the same for your 25 man roster (conf weekend, tourney)
Give me a breakdown of your fantasy roster.
# of Pitchers and class breakdown
# of Catchers and class breakdown
# of Middle Infs and class breakdown
# of OF's and class breakdown
# of Corner Infs and class breakdown
Do the same for your 25 man roster (conf weekend, tourney)
To be honest I am not sure looking at a schools "signings" or "official" roster is ALWAYS helpful. i.e. the school with 19 "official signings" may have gaven book money to 15 kids while the school down the street has 15 recruited walkons and 4 "official signings" all with some tuition money. Either way both schools have at least 19 new guys showing up in the fall!
On-line Rosters can be misleading. Some schools list evrryone that showed up in the fall while others only list 32 players, eventhough they have just as many players as the school that seems to have a huge roster.
While looking at the signings and rosters can be helpful some important questions can only be answered by the coach:
1-When and where do you see me playing
2-What is the current depth chart for my position, including greyshirts redshirts, recruits etc.
3-Who else are you recruiting for my position - including walkons and transfers
4-Are you planning on recruiting any other players, HS and JC, NEXT summer for my position? The answer will be "yes"!!
On-line Rosters can be misleading. Some schools list evrryone that showed up in the fall while others only list 32 players, eventhough they have just as many players as the school that seems to have a huge roster.
While looking at the signings and rosters can be helpful some important questions can only be answered by the coach:
1-When and where do you see me playing
2-What is the current depth chart for my position, including greyshirts redshirts, recruits etc.
3-Who else are you recruiting for my position - including walkons and transfers
4-Are you planning on recruiting any other players, HS and JC, NEXT summer for my position? The answer will be "yes"!!
Absolutely.....
If you have questions ask the people involved w/ the program....You can ask them ANYTHING you want, ANYTHING!!!!
Just playing Devil's Advocate....please don't get mad at me......
To me, asking things like when (how much) do you see me playing is too difficult to answer. That is all up to the player.
*How does the coach know who will be playing the best in the spring? If he knew that he would be in Vegas....
*Can the coach ask?
1. How many times you are going to miss class?
2. Are you going to be eligible?
3. Are you going to get hurt this season?
4. Are you going to get the "the thing" (ala Makey Sasser, Knoblauch, Steve Sax)?
5. Are you going to "fall in love" and not give me 100% on and off of the field?
*Depth Chart means nothing to me because....
1. I may not have seen any of these kids play. (one practice or a hand full of games doesn't count.
2. I don't know their academic standing...are they going to be eligible next spring?
3. How well will these kids play in the spring?
4. As of May 06 the coach may know who is returning....By July 06 that could have changed dramatically. (transfers, academic reasons, personal reasons, incoming players change of heart, pro signings etc...)
*Who are you going to recruit at my position? Fair Question......A better way to phrase it would be......Let's say I'm a L/L OF.......How many OF's would you like to carry on your spring roster?...How many do anticipate returning at this time?.....It's up to the parent/player to know the class and particulars, corner OF's, Center Fielders etc....Or you could ask that too if you wanted....Just match a stat sheet up against a roster...
*Are you planning on recruiting for my position next summer?....Well I don't know.???
1. Are you going to hit .380 or .180?
2. Are you going to be able to play defense for me?
3. Are you going to be able to execute on the field? (bunt, situational hitting, know the signs and don't miss them, execute bunt coverages etc...)
4. Are you going to compete the way I desire you to compete?
5. Are you a team guy?....very relative...
You see what I'm getting at.......It's a very big risk on their part as well.......
Not your son alone, but Your Son could cost a man his job and affect his future to do something he loves very dearly.....His family and his livelyhood are just as important to him as your children are to you......And most coaches that you will run into will do anything they can to help and answer anything they know the answer to...Most are genuine, good people....They get overshadowed by the shady ones...
If you have questions ask the people involved w/ the program....You can ask them ANYTHING you want, ANYTHING!!!!
Just playing Devil's Advocate....please don't get mad at me......
To me, asking things like when (how much) do you see me playing is too difficult to answer. That is all up to the player.
*How does the coach know who will be playing the best in the spring? If he knew that he would be in Vegas....
*Can the coach ask?
1. How many times you are going to miss class?
2. Are you going to be eligible?
3. Are you going to get hurt this season?
4. Are you going to get the "the thing" (ala Makey Sasser, Knoblauch, Steve Sax)?
5. Are you going to "fall in love" and not give me 100% on and off of the field?
*Depth Chart means nothing to me because....
1. I may not have seen any of these kids play. (one practice or a hand full of games doesn't count.
2. I don't know their academic standing...are they going to be eligible next spring?
3. How well will these kids play in the spring?
4. As of May 06 the coach may know who is returning....By July 06 that could have changed dramatically. (transfers, academic reasons, personal reasons, incoming players change of heart, pro signings etc...)
*Who are you going to recruit at my position? Fair Question......A better way to phrase it would be......Let's say I'm a L/L OF.......How many OF's would you like to carry on your spring roster?...How many do anticipate returning at this time?.....It's up to the parent/player to know the class and particulars, corner OF's, Center Fielders etc....Or you could ask that too if you wanted....Just match a stat sheet up against a roster...
*Are you planning on recruiting for my position next summer?....Well I don't know.???
1. Are you going to hit .380 or .180?
2. Are you going to be able to play defense for me?
3. Are you going to be able to execute on the field? (bunt, situational hitting, know the signs and don't miss them, execute bunt coverages etc...)
4. Are you going to compete the way I desire you to compete?
5. Are you a team guy?....very relative...
You see what I'm getting at.......It's a very big risk on their part as well.......
Not your son alone, but Your Son could cost a man his job and affect his future to do something he loves very dearly.....His family and his livelyhood are just as important to him as your children are to you......And most coaches that you will run into will do anything they can to help and answer anything they know the answer to...Most are genuine, good people....They get overshadowed by the shady ones...
quote:Originally posted by LOW337:
The school in question that is in VA is not doing anything that bad in my opinion.
The school only had 24 guys on their roster in last spring.
They lost 5 SRs.
You add 19 to that only have 38.
An unforeseen injury, academic casuality and you are down to a workable number that has competition.
I personally like 32-35....some have much more than 38 on a roster....
Oh well, what I'm basically saying is that it isn't as bad as it initially sounded.
As I said, that's why you should check into why the large signing class!
College Parent,
Good questions to ask! I'd leave out the how much do you see me playing too, only the player can determine that through his hard work and determination!
I think LOW gives some good answers to many of your questions.
Low please don't misquote me or read to much between the lines.
"when" means "when" not how much. i.e. Freshman, Sophmore.......
My point is you can only "get" so much info from rosters and signings so there is nothing wrong with asking the coach where he see's you fitting into his plans and who else he is recruiting for your postion. Certainly the coach doesn't know how a recruit or his current players will perform but I am pretty sure he has expectations so why not ask? At worse he'll say I don't know until next February.
"when" means "when" not how much. i.e. Freshman, Sophmore.......
My point is you can only "get" so much info from rosters and signings so there is nothing wrong with asking the coach where he see's you fitting into his plans and who else he is recruiting for your postion. Certainly the coach doesn't know how a recruit or his current players will perform but I am pretty sure he has expectations so why not ask? At worse he'll say I don't know until next February.
quote:Absolutely.....
If you have questions ask the people involved w/ the program....You can ask them ANYTHING you want, ANYTHING!!!!
As I said.......(see above)
And remember I was just playing devil's advocate.....
I have no dog in any fight here.....
Just throwing some things out there.....
I think asking where your son fits into his plans is a good question to ask.
Coaches recruit on needs, he may have 2 catchers (example)already, but likes what he sees and thinks that your son may have more success at another position due to his arm (outfield). Many players end up playing other positions at college. But another coach, if asked, the answer might he needs him as a catcher and that may affect yours son's decision.
However, everything you discuss in advance is never written in stone!
JMO
Coaches recruit on needs, he may have 2 catchers (example)already, but likes what he sees and thinks that your son may have more success at another position due to his arm (outfield). Many players end up playing other positions at college. But another coach, if asked, the answer might he needs him as a catcher and that may affect yours son's decision.
However, everything you discuss in advance is never written in stone!
JMO
I now realize this is all about VMI.
There is a simple explanation.
Lots of freshman plebes wash out at VMI. Life there is tougher than anything any of them have experienced before, and baseball players are not exempt.
You can bet that a handful of these 19 won't be around come spring time -- not for baseball reasons, but just because that's what VMI is like. You've got to prove your toughness just to survive first year there.
You've got to hand it to Coach Ike for figuring out how to win under those circumstances.
There is a simple explanation.
Lots of freshman plebes wash out at VMI. Life there is tougher than anything any of them have experienced before, and baseball players are not exempt.
You can bet that a handful of these 19 won't be around come spring time -- not for baseball reasons, but just because that's what VMI is like. You've got to prove your toughness just to survive first year there.
You've got to hand it to Coach Ike for figuring out how to win under those circumstances.
IMHO, these numbers are some of the most important things you should look at when you are looking at schools. For example, a D1 school just down the street from me, that now has a higher profile than before, signed 17 players for their incoming class. The roster was already 41, with 9 graduating. So, potentially 32 coming back plus 17. . .49. Hmmmmmmmm. Sure, there might be some that might not come back due to the draft or quitting, but still, you have to look REALLY carefully at the situation you are getting into.
What if .....said Div-I school signs 7 players in the early signing period in Nov and your son signed on the first day.
Then when April rolls around (the next signing period) the said school adds 10 more signees to NLI.....Then invites (In JUNE) 2 more to walk on and they get 2 transfers.
If the schools roster was at 41 and you knew potentially 32 were coming back when you signed, and they added the 10 to NIL in April and 4 more in June......
What do you do then?......Other than carefully looking before you leap.......
Go to JUCO?.....
Again, I'm just throwing questions out.....
Then when April rolls around (the next signing period) the said school adds 10 more signees to NLI.....Then invites (In JUNE) 2 more to walk on and they get 2 transfers.
If the schools roster was at 41 and you knew potentially 32 were coming back when you signed, and they added the 10 to NIL in April and 4 more in June......
What do you do then?......Other than carefully looking before you leap.......
Go to JUCO?.....
Again, I'm just throwing questions out.....
John - 17 is probably the smallest class they've brought in.
I'm far from being the most knowledgeable parent on this issue, but if a school is bringing in 20 kids a year, shouldn't this be a red flag to kids/parents?
LOW - I think many of these kids end up leaving at Christmas and going to JUCO or to a smaller school that perhaps recruited them in HS. Unfortunately many of them just end up giving up baseball. That's too bad for them just because a vision didn't match a reality.
I think a school's prior recruiting history and looking at what happens to the masses is one of the most important things a player/parent should consider. JMO
I'm far from being the most knowledgeable parent on this issue, but if a school is bringing in 20 kids a year, shouldn't this be a red flag to kids/parents?
LOW - I think many of these kids end up leaving at Christmas and going to JUCO or to a smaller school that perhaps recruited them in HS. Unfortunately many of them just end up giving up baseball. That's too bad for them just because a vision didn't match a reality.
I think a school's prior recruiting history and looking at what happens to the masses is one of the most important things a player/parent should consider. JMO
Just to offer up a little more information about the school that shall remain nameless--several of the "signees" are, in fact, recruited walk-ons.
Low,
To answer your question, you ask at recruiting time, "what is your anticipated roster for the fall I will be coming". Then you go to the website to figure out how many were on the roster and how many were transfers and how many were redshirts, you can check back for a few years to get an idea how they do things. Check out how many freshman were starters and how many played at your position (innings, at bats), how many freshman were sent to JUCO, etc.
As a pitcher, one should also be aware of how many innings pitchers pitched. On some rosters you will find it pretty even for the starters, or maybe you will find one or two that carry most of the load.
JMO.
Like anything it is a chance you take, but for some reason, 25 pitchers on a roster is not something my son liked at some of the schools he was interested in.
In the past few years, I have found many of teh larger schools to actually have smaller rosters than some of the smaller schools.
To answer your question, you ask at recruiting time, "what is your anticipated roster for the fall I will be coming". Then you go to the website to figure out how many were on the roster and how many were transfers and how many were redshirts, you can check back for a few years to get an idea how they do things. Check out how many freshman were starters and how many played at your position (innings, at bats), how many freshman were sent to JUCO, etc.
As a pitcher, one should also be aware of how many innings pitchers pitched. On some rosters you will find it pretty even for the starters, or maybe you will find one or two that carry most of the load.
JMO.
Like anything it is a chance you take, but for some reason, 25 pitchers on a roster is not something my son liked at some of the schools he was interested in.
In the past few years, I have found many of teh larger schools to actually have smaller rosters than some of the smaller schools.
TPM,
That was not what I was getting at.
Go back and read the post again.
I was just bringing to light that you can do all the homework you want but what if your son was the first signee of 7 in the early signing period in NOV and then from APRIL to JUNE the school added 14 more (signees that is).
What would you do? Just posing a "what if", that could very well happen.
NOTE: The early signing period starts in NOV (around the second week) on a Wed and ends the following Wed. The next signing period begins in April (around the second week) on a Wed and ends around the second week in Aug. Exact dates are irrelevent to this discussion.
So if your son signs in Nov., it would be during his Sr Yr obviously and he may not learn of the 14 other additions till June just prior to his Frosh year of college.
That was not what I was getting at.
Go back and read the post again.
I was just bringing to light that you can do all the homework you want but what if your son was the first signee of 7 in the early signing period in NOV and then from APRIL to JUNE the school added 14 more (signees that is).
What would you do? Just posing a "what if", that could very well happen.
NOTE: The early signing period starts in NOV (around the second week) on a Wed and ends the following Wed. The next signing period begins in April (around the second week) on a Wed and ends around the second week in Aug. Exact dates are irrelevent to this discussion.
So if your son signs in Nov., it would be during his Sr Yr obviously and he may not learn of the 14 other additions till June just prior to his Frosh year of college.
OldSlugger,
If I sign a kid in NOV odds are I'm not getting him for "books".....unless he gets money elsewhere that will not count against me.
If I sign a kid in NOV odds are I'm not getting him for "books".....unless he gets money elsewhere that will not count against me.
One thing particular to Virginia, the in-state tuition here is very reasonable compared to some other states.
Even if all you get is books, add a straight financial aid package and you've got a much higher percentage of total expense than a lot of places.
Even if all you get is books, add a straight financial aid package and you've got a much higher percentage of total expense than a lot of places.
Because the original post and posts after that showed concern w/ large recruiting classes.
My point was that a kid could sign in Nov and not be aware of the future growth of the recruiting class. How in Nov can a kid know how many kids a school will sign or have transfer in? Like I said....It could be only 7 in Nov (w/ more sure to sign) and then in June it is up to 21...wow)....
You with me?
My point was that a kid could sign in Nov and not be aware of the future growth of the recruiting class. How in Nov can a kid know how many kids a school will sign or have transfer in? Like I said....It could be only 7 in Nov (w/ more sure to sign) and then in June it is up to 21...wow)....
You with me?
Lafmom,
If you leave a Div-I school (AT THE BREAK YOUR FROSH YR) you will not be eligible at the JUCO that spring, or any 4yr school, as far as I know. Provided nothing has changed in the last 3 yrs, I believe this to be true. If I'm wrong please correct me. To transfer and be eligible you usually have to have been there one school year (which usually means Fall/Spring) I think it could also be Spring/Summer or Summer/Fall. Must be full time both semesters.
Lafmom Quote:
"LOW - I think many of these kids end up leaving at Christmas and going to JUCO or to a smaller school that perhaps recruited them in HS. Unfortunately many of them just end up giving up baseball. That's too bad for them just because a vision didn't match a reality."
If you leave a Div-I school (AT THE BREAK YOUR FROSH YR) you will not be eligible at the JUCO that spring, or any 4yr school, as far as I know. Provided nothing has changed in the last 3 yrs, I believe this to be true. If I'm wrong please correct me. To transfer and be eligible you usually have to have been there one school year (which usually means Fall/Spring) I think it could also be Spring/Summer or Summer/Fall. Must be full time both semesters.
Lafmom Quote:
"LOW - I think many of these kids end up leaving at Christmas and going to JUCO or to a smaller school that perhaps recruited them in HS. Unfortunately many of them just end up giving up baseball. That's too bad for them just because a vision didn't match a reality."
LOW - Are you saying that players can't transfer at Christmas? I know several kids that have done that. I don't know for sure that they all were eligible though without researching. However, off the top of my head I know one player who transferred from a very large DI to a NAIA to have a very successful spring. I know another that transferred this past Christmas from a DII and contributed in the spring. When I get some time, I'll have to go look at the others. Maybe these two had other factors contributing there playing if I'm understanding what you're saying. 
I agree with lafmom here. One of our players was given his release at mid-year last year; and he was available to play for his new Division I program as soon as the second semester began.