Recruiting Variables

Fungo

As usual a great thought provoking post.

One thing we have found is that the travel team caoch can and should be able to help the player/parents in this "fit" process and perhaps eliminate a some of the luck factor.

Here is an example: one of our kids went to visit two programs this week --we spoke with the head coach at both schools as well as another he is due to visit in upcoming weeks. We were able to update the coach on the boy and his family, the boys talents and weaknesses, yes we point them out to coaches, and the boys personality and make up.

Hopefully in doing this we can have the boy go into the visit with the coach pretty much filled in on the boy and his talent and needs.

Guys, do not be afraid to ask your coach to make a call or two for you. Most times this personal touch can go a long way on your behalf.

Just a thought from our viewpoint as a travel team program

Fungo & TR,

Great posts and great suggestions!

I am trying to thought provoke as well, but I am not as good as the fungomaster.

This time in your son's life is the MOST important 4 or 5 years of his life. Anyway, why do we not ask the right questions when we are sitting right across from the head coach??? Are we trying not to "rock the boat", "be polite", worried about our son being scracthed from the list??? I am not saying to be confrontational but I have always believed right wrong or indifferent that there are (2) situations that your son is in when going into a college program. That is as it relates to baseball. It is either his position to challenge for or his position to lose. That is NOT a guaranteed starting role. The two situations I listed are very different. Ask all of the questions you need to ask; but do not leave the coaches office without asking the question I have listed above. It is a difficult question for the coach to answer but he already knows the answer and should relay the information to you; if you ask it. When you leave his office there will be no misunderstanding of what your role is going to be. Who knows, the answer the coach gives you to that single question may help you make your decision that much easier.

O42

orioles42

I have never felt that asking the "right" questions for you , the player/parent, i wrong. I am not saying make demands as I have knwn parents and players to do but to ask thoughtful and insightful questions of the coach and his staff.

No harm in asking the coach questions such as " what do see my role as for you coming in as a freshman?"

This is no different then a job interview. It's not good practice to put yourself into a job without being able to or afraid to ask any questions. Be direct so that there are NO misunderstandings.

We used this method with our boys. Dress for success and be prepared. When a coach responds that " you really did your homework" with regards to knowledge of the program, past recruiting and where they're headed can only be an asset.

A great thought provoking thread.

In our case we were not looking for any gaurentee of a starting position. We had a couple schools who did that but how good is the gaurentee. It is only as good as you are good. We fully expected to fight for playing time. The one thing I failed to discover was that you 1st had to compete for a roster spot but knowing this would not have influenced our descion. This is baseball and there are no qaurenntees as well as no crying. I can protect my son from failure, I can only help him to get an opportunity to succeed. The rest is up to him. He is having the time of his life and he knows he could lose his spot tomorrow if he dosen't put up the numbers.
I have been preparing him for years to handle the "PRESSURE" of baseball so that he feels excitment instead of pressure because he knows this is a game of failure.
I can't see how a coach can give you a gaurentee.

Bobblehead

Before my son got his scholarship papers etc he got a letter from the baseball staff telling him very simply:

01-- you are on the team and you have a uniform with your number on it
02-- you have to earn the right to travel
03-- you have to earn the right to start


How can a 17 year old headed to college ask for more and they are paying his way there?

Fungomaster,
Great post. Funny, been getting a couple of pm's from some folks telling me the first half experience is not what they expected for their son. This is not unusual, as the recruiting process is so difficult, even when you feel it is right it sometimes isn't when you get there.

Even with choices son had, there was so much to consider, the variables. But one thing we were not afraid to do was ask lots of questions, took nothing said for granted and then drew our own conclusions. Coaches said that no question seemed silly to ask, if you get the idea your questions are bothering coach, then how do you think yur son will feel whan he has to ask questions?

A very big variable should be a consideration of what happens after son gets to school not just getting into school. Parents need to realize that this becomes their "home" for 3,4 possibly 5 years. Will they be happy with the scheduling of classes, will they be happy with the way the team is run (yes they all run them differently). Will they be happy with the student population in general. This applies to any college student, not just basebll players, but as a student athlete their is more at stake. I have a friend whose neice got into one of the most prestigiuos colleges in the country, rural. Being a city girl, she realized after a year it was not for her.

Parents/players have to realize that it takes time, very few can get out there and just play the first year as a starter. You'll see when the time comes, there are so many factors, and should be discussed with coach during recruiting. If coach tells you that it may take a few years to get to teh level of play needed at his school, say thank you and move on to where you can play a starting position as a sophomore, whether it be D1, d2,d3, Juco, NAIA. JMO.

Travel and summer coaches, HS coaches are very important in the process. They are able to give unbiased opinions because it is not their son. Our son's Poker coaches were very influential in helping him make the decision. In fact one coach offered a suggestion. My son knew one of the smaller D1 pitching coaches down here, they told him to call him up. Though he would have loved son to come play, he knew that son would go to a bigger school. Son called him one night and they had a great conversation, he listened mostly as son felt he needed to just "talk". It was very helpful.
Another one of his coaches son's both were attending Auburn and one UF. He would have loved to see my son play at either one, but he agreed that Clemson was the best choice for HIM.

So you do need some people who can step back and give your son some honest solid advice.

I am with TR on this one, I don't feel a player should have to get to school to find out he has to earn a roster spot. If you are given an award, in my mind, you have earned that jersey #, right to travel and possibly right to start.

I agree with Bobblehead. I don't know how any coach could guarantee even a "it's your position to lose" kind of situation when you are talking about a Freshman coming in to an established program. Now certainly, if the kid is a bona fide stud, that might be the case, but in the vast majority of instances, I think that simply would not be realistic.

montanadad,
Most college recruitiers have done enough homework to know they have found a player to fit their program. Most good college head coaches don't cut roster players loose, it usually becomes a decision for the player.
No one has to promise a starting position, that has to be earned. But to get to school and find out you may be cut from spring because you did not make the team, AND NOT TOLD THAT, is unethical. I don't care whether the team is ranked #1 or #1000.

TR that is all you can ask. Even though they are paying a huge chunk of money so are we. It is a very exciting time and I have enjoyed every minute.
I really liked the University in CT. The coach was great and was rebuilding their Ball program. It was a small private school but weather was an issue for us. My son wanted hot.

TPM I have a friend who plays D1 NCAA in Arkinsas. Closer for last 2 years with great numbers. He was told his services weren't needed but he is still there refusing to lay down and die. New coach wants his stamp on the team. I believe he convinced the coach to let him play through the fall and his name is still there.

some valuable insight here for players going thru the recruiting phase


coaches DO have different systems and not understanding that can bring about some "stress"

A) some coach's rosters will be "set" when their players arrive at school. They will teach, work and develop that roster until the season starts. there will be an occassional "red shirt" player tho rarely is a player "cut". the travel squad will be determined and often changes week to week.

B) other coach's rosters will be set only after fall workouts/tryouts, & cuts. players are often "redshirted", midyear transfers are not uncommon, and "cuts" are the norm to set the roster. when the season begins the travel squad will be determined and often changes week to week.


if you research & listen carefuly during recruiting it will minimize surprises.
people DO choose both types, some may have no choice because their offers are all from one type and it works for them -
but if you're expecting type "A" and find yourself in type "B", well . . it can cause some discomfort & have you questioning whether you were really listening during recruiting

hope that helps someone



.

ps-

quote:

by bbldoll: Closer for last 2 years with great numbers. He was told his services weren't needed

eh . . stamp? veteran contributor? -
that flat out translates to "off the field problems"
tho if he's still listed he "may" be trying to work himself out of the "doghouse" - - good luck to him

Bobblehead,
Something didn't have him sit too well in the favor of new coach to be asked to leave. We don't know the whole story do we.
I know of a great player who didn't go to class much who was told you don't go to class you don't play much, he transfered. I also know of a player who tested negatively on a drug test and DECIDED to leave, was not asked. I know of a few other instances where kids messed up, didn't fit into the team chemistry, still not asked to leave but left on their own. These instances were from very big schools in major conferences (NOT Clemson). They are NOT too many coaches who ask players to leave, though they make it uncomfortable for the player to stay, cutting scholarships, redshirting, no travel time, LOTS of bench sitting.
I have heard that some schools clear the benches when a new coach comes, but I think that happens less than we think.

I "know" of !

I heard of !

I think !

This is how people getting into the process get bushwacked--- speak facts not rumors pleaase

No offense meant TPM but pleaaaaase use facts not hearsay

TR,
I would not use names on a public forum to support my post, I don't do that, not my style. I am actually supporting the theory that coaches don't just let players go on a whim.

I do think that some could trust me enough to know I don't make up "stuff" just to post. I don't doubt Bobblehead knew of someone also.

Don't go there with me.

TPM

I am not talking of you making up info--just maybe not knowing as much as you say you do.

Yes I will go there because I think at times you mislead people with your posts--my opinion and mine alone-- take it as you may as may others

And please no more clandestine emails/PMs with inane info and warnings

Bee you may be right. I only heard the players side of the story. It would not be an academic problem. The guy is a total schollar. He does have a temper but I got the story from his parents and they said it wasw due to the coaching change.
I know a lot of freshmen who came from solid programs who were redshirted last year for various reasons. A lot of guys who scholarshipped a couple years ago are no longer playing in the US. Not sure why but I am ammazed at the low success rate. I define success as graduating at the their school while under a baseball schollarship.

TR i understand you get a little irritable at times but I agree with TPM. I would never put a players name on here or a schools name unless I was saying something nice about them.

Because we are human sometimes that level of talent is blurred because the "fit" isn't right to begin with. Many times you hear of players that leave a school for another and all of a sudden the they pick thier game up to the level that was expected at the initial school. Maybe it was a school problem, a coach, a teammate. The talent was always there but was covered by a personal or environmental issue.

Many of us have had this same scenario happen in the work force. One can always project the future, but the important thing is how we adjust to the bumps in that projection.

TR,
You are entitled to your opinion, so I won't take that away from you.

However, your pursuit and desire to make me look not credible only brings out the worst in you.

December is typicly a "period" where posters go thru a transformation/change/etc and can be pretty grumpy - - as the season come around so do they - -

hoping TR gets a red "midlife" 'vette for Christmas, maybe he'll show a smile occasionaly -
tho maybe he's spending the holiday with Dibble


.

Great stuff!

I was talking to a D-III coach (who happens to be my cousing) and he said to be up front about expectations. As we are probably heading the D-III route, obviously the over-recruiting scenerio came up. He gave me this advice:
1. Find out exactly what and how long tryouts entail.
2. Find out where your son stands. Is he being recruited just to boost "numbers" or will he actually have a spot on the team if he comes. He also cautioned to be "non-threatening" in the tone.

Agree it is important to do one's homework, ask plenty of questions and be realistic about how the player will fit into the program. This is especially true when one is considering one of the top tier D1 programs where the expectations to win drive some coaches to over-recruit. In these situations good players end up sitting and even brief dips in performance can relegate one to the bench or dog house. Disappointment and transfers are the natural byproduct. How to tell which schools behave this way? Go back for a few years and review the signing announcements and see how many who signed ended up on the team for 1-2-3 years .... and how many got significant playing time. The weeding out process can be brutal. I would not discourage anyone from pursuing one of these opportunities if given the chance .... the rewards can be great but it is not all a bed of roses.

Guys and Gals

Dont need 'vette--that time is past-- I walk now --Bee dont assume any mid life stuff for anyone --as for Dibble(DRIVEL) there is no way -

TPM

Not trying to make you you look non credible but at times I have to not agree with you-- you are at times very misleading, perhaps based on lack of depth and experience--of lot of what you post about is hearsay--

Last winter I posted about a boy who was unhappy with his situation in a Northeast D3 and had transferred to a D2. He wanted to be a two way player and was going to be given a chance in his new school. I didn't post his name or the schools in question but I did get some feedback from a poster in NEVADA???? I think, telling me that I was mistaken and that the two way player thing would never work out.
HAHAHAHAHA

Turns out the player was the POY in our conference, with a great pitching record BUT also led the conference in HR's........ and it was great move for him.

TPM....I completely understand your not naming names and TR, I know of each and every circumstance with which TPM alludes. I say good for her for not putting names out on a public forum because that is how I feel as well.
She is as well connected as any MOM I have every known and that is because her son has already had many oppotunities that nost have not. Her phone rings....people on the other end, I am lucky enough to know! And jealousy about one's connections is very real, unfortunately.

Doing all the necessary 'homework' still guarantees nothing. The initial post by Fungo talks about the variables. There are so many more variables than are ever discussed here. These kids are living (usually away from home) in an entirely new environment and associate with so many people other than their coaches and teammates.....teammates they may have not expected to have to relate to.

Similarly, the coaches who recruit kids do as much homework about the players as they can. Even when both parties do their homework nothing is guaranteed. Many times during the recruiting process the player (and parents) put on their 'courting' faces.....then when they arrive on campus to live 24/7 they just don't seem like the same people.....just as some parents/student-athletes think that the coach is not what he seemed to be while recruiting.

This happens in life outside of baseball as well. A guy dates a woman for a couple months, on an almost daily basis (probably spending significantly more time than parents/players/coaches spend together during recruiting).........all of a sudden the woman shows that she isn't what she seemed to be earlier (ladies, I know it goes both ways), and the relationship is either nurtured, somewhat crippled, or ends.

A transfer isn't necessarily due to poor planning or education. Sometimes what initially seems like a good fit just doesn't really fit.

I didn't know if my son's choice was going to be a good fit or not, and he is a junior now. There was no 'we' involved. The coaches are not coaching me; the faculty members are not teaching me, and the roomates/classmates are not interacting seven days a week with me........it didn't really matter to me if any coaches told him that he would play a lot, or a little, or have to earn his time. I know that coaches make all their players earn their playing time (coaches want to win), and I knew that my son had the ability to pitch for any school in the country.....but that he would still have to earn his innings by performing on the field, in the classroom, and in social situations.

An 18 year old kid needs to be able to adapt to any unfamiliar situations and even an unexpected environment, to negative coaches and teammates and even undisciplined teammates and friends. Our kids truly make their own beds and then have to sleep in them, just as we do.

If things don't work out at one place, perhaps a change may be in order. It doesn't mean that homework wasn't done with enough detail, though that can happen.....it just means it wasn't a good fit at the time.

I have dated women for significant lengths of time, and did not stay with them. The time for homework, self-reflection, and needs analysis really may never end, in all areas of our lives and those of our kids.

When things do work out, whether there are struggles, changes in plans or not (ie. transfers), then we can be.......grateful

Grateful .......... agree 110%.

grateful - classic post!

Yes G. very nice. I always appreciate when a coach reminds us of the perspective from the other side. It's really a very helpful thing for our sons when we consider not only their needs/desires, but explore the true needs/desires of the program and coach - a fit for everyone is what we're all after.

With my very short experiences in this department, I would never criticize anyone for their choices or how they go about things. There are too many variables - it's not a one size fits all.

quote:

I didn't know if my son's choice was going to be a good fit or not, and he is a junior now. There was no 'we' involved. The coaches are not coaching me; the faculty members are not teaching me, and the roomates/classmates are not interacting seven days a week with me........it didn't really matter to me if any coaches told him that he would play a lot, or a little, or have to earn his time. I know that coaches make all their players earn their playing time (coaches want to win), and I knew that my son had the ability to pitch for any school in the country.....but that he would still have to earn his innings by performing on the field, in the classroom, and in social situations.

Grateful, I appreciate your perspective and I think your post is a great example that demonstrates that players/parents need to understand the variables about being recruited. Since your say your son can pitch at any college in the country, that alone sets him apart and creates a variable that VERY FEW players/families will ever experience. Another unique variable in your son’s recruiting ride is his father (you) used to be a college head coach. That has to be one huge variable for a player going into the recruiting phase. Your son’s situation is so unique that it has to fall at the very end of the recruiting spectrum and should be recognized as a rarity in recruiting rather than an example for the vast majority of players and parents. Thanks!
Fungo

Fungo, you are right that my son's recruiting experience was unique. I wanted to (should have) add to my post that from my perspective regarding my son, I wasn't as concerned about what would happen with him on the field, but the many variables off the field were what would determine the 'fit' at his chosen school.

On the other hand, the rest of my post has nothing to do with my son, but has more to do with my experience as a college coach, knowing what student-athletes deal with on a 24/7 basis and the surprises that come for people on both sides of the recruiting process....coaches and players/parents.

One aspect of the "fit" that is the biggest variable is the coach who recruited you, usually an assistant, who moves on to what he thinks are greener pastures and the recruited player is left without his "rabbi". The new recruiting guy now wants to bring in "his" players, like from his brothers JUCO program where the brother is the head coach.

It is never over until the player graduates from the school of his choice

TRHit,
Good point! Nothing stand still and what may have been a great fit at the beginning just turned sour and the player had nothing to do with it. Does the player move on?
Fungo

Fungo

In my opinion it all depends when the change takes place as to what the player does.

Great post Grateful and good point TR.
In our case transferring would not be an option unless the situation got untenable but I can't see that happening.

I just talked to my friend that I posted about earlier. His son was the one that was being cut and he said he is still there but his 3 roommates aren't. All three and others cut. New coach and he flatout told them no one was safe. New recruits coming for next semester. I understand the scholarships are safe until the end of next semester but he was not sure.
The new coach is putting his own stamp on the team.

Bobblehead,
I may be wrong but this being a D-1 as you stated earlier, I think the scholarship is for one year and cannot be pulled simply because the coach wants new players.

Thats what I unjderstand but wasn't sure.

quote:

by fungo: I think the scholarship is for one year and cannot be pulled simply because the coach wants new players.

I believe that WOULD be correct for a freshman player, but not necessarily after that

it would be justice for a coach pulling that sh** to have 35 mid-yr transfers (out) -

"stamp this coach"



.

BEE, We would get a notification in the mail each year from my son's college that said his scholarship had renewed for one year. Not sure if this was mandated by NCAA regulation or was the policy of the college.
Fungo