Redshirt Freshman

rz,
I was using Daniel Moskos as an example of a pitcher not getting in lots of innings and redshirting as CD said he could see pitchers redshirting, I don't agree. Pitchers need to throw to live batters and not just the same 12 - 15 ones for a year.

I could give you half a dozen top programs where coaches will not play their freshman when they can for experience. Any program that is ahead by more than 10 later in a game should have all their non starters in for playi8ng time

Pitchers and position players can put in valuable playing time on the mound at JUCO programs. They don't have to sit at for experience.

Ok txbb6 blame it on the wife.

Regardless those are my thought on redshirting for non medical reasons. Things will be a lot different now with the new rules.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
Many times redshirting a player is not decided until the season is in progress. Is there a date that a redshirt status has to be placed on a player?

A redshirt year is NOT AWARDED until the championship season has ended, even though discussed beforehand. A coach cannot award a regular redshirt unless he has given out regular redshirt the season before, as I stated before. So if a player is looking to extend his college career by redshirt, be sure the coach has awarded them previously.
That's why the player who gets in a few at bats or an inning or two does not always get the redshirt year. It's based upon the previous year. If the coach has 2 redshirt to give and two did not play in any game, they will get the redshirt over those that burned an inning or two. That's why redshirts are told or asked in advance.

txbb6 has started two interesting yet controversial topics that I am aware and I don't think he meant either of them to come across as controversial.

FWIW, people are quite intelligent and can read between the lines as well as what is actually written. For example, when someone asks about their son's college coaches after they have already signed, they wonder why sign there if you still have questions. When someone asks about redshirting in general, people assume that you are pondering the prospects of redshirting. Not saying that is right for people to assume but just trying to convey how things can be misinterpreted on a message board.

If I'm not mistaken, Jonathan Papelbon was redshirted his freshman year and things turned out pretty well for him. I'm with rz1 in that it can really benefit a freshman, especially a pitcher. Best case scenario is the player is drafted with two remaining years of college eligibility. Worst of course is he quits or stops developing.
My own son redshirted last year, and it turned out as a blessing in disguise. Once he got over the bruised ego, he used the time to work on some things in the bullpen without pressure to perform in game situations. He added 5 mph and a much improved change up. Not sure he would have pitched much last year anyway with 2 established senior LHPs starting 2 of every three games.

txbb6,
I would recommend looking at Juco, not about red shirting

quote:

Originally posted by txbb6:

quote:

This worries me that you ask this question. Having second thoughts on sons decision? I must ask why you would ask this question. Reason I ask is I don't see his competition going away after red shirt year, just getting more & more every year. All his competition is coming in the same year and will be there for 4 years.

Wildcatman
No 2nd thoughts at all. Why should I have any?
I'm not worried, therefore you should not worry (whoever you are). The question was asked to me by my wife "what does redshirt freshman mean"? I told her what it meant and she asked what are some reasons for redshirting is. Hence this topic.

Good topic anyway. There is definately 2 sides of the fence on this one. = EDITED =

quote:

I would recommend looking at Juco, not about red shirting

Some of you, not all, are looking way too much into this question. Why can't I ask this question without it pertaining to my son? Why must it get interpretated by others that I am speaking of my son? There is no doubt in my mind that we will not have to worry about redshirting. I simply asked this question because I want to know.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
txbb6 has started two interesting yet controversial topics that I am aware and I don't think he meant either of them to come across as controversial.

FWIW, people are quite intelligent and can read between the lines as well as what is actually written. For example, when someone asks about their son's college coaches after they have already signed, they wonder why sign there if you still have questions. When someone asks about redshirting in general, people assume that you are pondering the prospects of redshirting. Not saying that is right for people to assume but just trying to convey how things can be misinterpreted on a message board.

Good points CD and with wildman's post I asummed wrong and I do apologize when I am wrong.

I still think it is a good discussion, despite differences in opinions.

quote:

when someone asks about their son's college coaches after they have already signed,

CD:
I still ask questions. Its not that I am questioning anything negative, I want to know who the next 4 years of my sons life is going to be spent with. Anything wrong with that? And FYI, I have heard nothing but good about all of these coaches.

quote:

= edited quote =

Well its obvious to me that you know absolutely nothing about me or what I am worried about. You are way off base with some of the things that you state.

txbb6,

WILDCATMAN: YOU HAVE BEEN EDITED.

GO JUCO.

quote:

Good points CD and with wildman's post I asummed wrong and I do apologize when I am wrong.

Don't let Tom hear you say that!

quote:

Not saying that is right for people to assume but just trying to convey how things can be misinterpreted on a message board.

I hear what you are saying CD.

Perfect example,...in the Ask about College Forum, I have asked about multiple colleges,...some for personal reasons, other times for friends/son's team mates, or perhaps just curious.
Doesnt mean that if I ask about Stanford, that they are recruiting my son- ( darn it!- ha! )

Sometimes its good to read between the lines, other times,.....not so much.

Interesting topic and I have some related questions.

If I understand correctly, a redshirt year is granted upon completion of the current season. Can a player have any game action?

My son might possibly be in another situation where redshirt status might be desirable.

He was a basically a unrecruited ballplayer, through minimal fault of his own. (We could not afford to shop him around, so to speak).

He was recruited by a good local JC and a midlevel local D1. We looked at both alternatives. The JC team was loaded with returning players at his position, the D1 was not. Now it turns out, the D1 team did recruit some top JC players at his position. At the time, we were not aware.

Now the kicker. The D1 has decided to convert him to a catcher. He caught one game in HS, his first freshman game and no more in HS. He was a pitcher at the time. He did catch some during the summers.

There are 2 jr catchers above him and barring injury will see all the playing time. He has yet to play in a game, but is on the travel squad. Probably to protect the team should a injury occur.

According to him, there has been no mention of redshirting. If he doesn't play, wouldn't there be a benefit to asking for a redshirt year.

PS: He has already been assigned and accepted to a Collegiate summer league.

Redshirt is not granted until after the playing season and is based upon whether the coach grants it or not. I do beleive (not sure) once you pitch one inning or one at bat you are not eligible, not sure, someone may have more info on that.

The only time a "redshirt" is granted when playing time has occured is early injury even if played in a game, but that is NOT a typical true redshirt but a medical waiver which is different and awarded based on medical history and seriousness of injury that would prevent the player from playing that season. That's why I am not in favor of taking a redshirt when no injury has occured, if something happens the following year, a serious injury, you have used up your one year of playing time and now are off the field again. You can NOT have more than 5 years of eligibility anymore. Years ago they used to give both redshirts and medical waivers to players but athletic departments will fight you on it. It's virtually impossible. This is what happened to son's teammates, they didn't play their frosh year(their choice) granted redshirts then both hurt (not by playing in a game) and missed most of their sophmore years. As RS juniors, one has 3-4 innings and another 24 innings and behind in their development. LHPs, they both wanted to continue beyond college but have small roles. Because on is graduating this spring my understanding is if he doesn't produce, due to 35 man roster limit next year, he could be gone or not have any scholarship money available.

BTW, don't think that because you are a redshirt that you can take a lighter load to "adjust". Now in a redshirt year might possibly you have to take 18 credits minimum because you AREN'T playing. Again, things have changed, rules have changed, during recruiting ask about granting redshirts, I'll bet most will tell you they don't grant them anymore unless for injury.

If they decided to convert your son to a catcher, that's where he will play because they need him there and he must have a good arm and maybe convert him back to a pitcher in the future. Players have little choice in the matter. However opportunities arise, he may get in at another position, at bats and to catch. In the meantime he is on the travel squad, gets in his practice time at home and on the road, which still makes him a part of the team. You might just have to wait until the season goes on to see what develops.

Usually 3 catchers are needed for a team and lots is for catching pens, not necessarily playing in games. However, any good and fair coach should, if the opportunity arises, give him some playing time as not to waste his year.

JMO.

TPM


Just for the record my son was redshirted in his freshman year the night before their first game in January


As far as I know 12 credits minimum is what is needed to be a matriculating student


And additional years can be gotten by appeal to the NCAA---

TR,
He was TOLD he would be redshirted.
In very simple terms "redshirt" (let's use freshman redshirt), means that the player is in his second year in college but did not play his first year. He does NOT become a redshirt until he enters his sophmore year and not approved until after the championship season ends and approved by that school (not the NCAA). The coach has to prove that the player never playedthat season.

Many redshirt players are still required to dress up and warm up with the team. They are still on the roster and can enter the game at anytime.

Check it out at ncaa.org if you DON'T beleive me.

What I was looking for before (discussing 6 years) is greyshirt and must be approved by the NCAA and very rare.

With the new rules and emphasis on graduation rates and teh NCAA looking to set penalties, highly doubt that 12 credits a semester will be acceptable for anyone anymore.

New time, new rules.

The athletic counslers at my son's school recomended 12 units per semester. My son took 13 in the fall and is taking 13 units this spring.

Dooer,
Does your son attend a D1 program?

Do you know how many credits your son needs to graduate for his major?

Or let me ask this, how many parents out there know how many credits your players need to graduate in 4 years from the school they are attending?
The object is to go to school to get a degree and you have to stay on track to play. If your son accumulates on 26 credits g=his first year and later fails a course, he might not be able to play or will have to attend summer school (if he doesn't mind).

It's not only based on ERA but other rules as well.

TPM

Call it what you want when he played the second year he was termed a redshirt freshman and had been listed his freshman year as a RS on the roster. The only thing that mattered was that he had four years of eligibility remaining after his freshman year.

By the way the evening before the game the coach called me to let me know he was being redshirted.


I ask you this: how can he play in a game if he is redshirted and noted as so on the roster?

AS for the credits if a player redshirts his frosh year there is no reason he cannot take 12 credits a spring semester the next 4 years---he has the 5 years to complete his college eligibility---and keep in mind that some 30 credits are taken care in his redshirt frosh year

TPM, yes my son attends a D1 University.

I realize that he will not graduate in 4 years at that rate. I did not graduate in 4 years and I did not play sports.

Knock on wood, he does well in school and hopefully will not fail a class.

I assume that the counselors know what they are talking about when they recomend only 12 units. If after the first year they feel they can handle more, they are allowed to take more.

quote:

Originally posted by Dooer:

I assume that the counselors know what they are talking about when they recomend only 12 units. If after the first year they feel they can handle more, they are allowed to take more.

Absolutely they know what they are talking about. They know all about how to stretch out the college experience so that they can get as much as possible out of each student. The number one rule of business is to get as much out of each customer as you can, because it's a lot more expensive to get new customers.

How come parents aren't more questioning about this? I'd be kicking my sons arse if he was lounging around on 12 hours a semester. Colleges would tell you that 9 hours a semester turns out the brightest students in the world, if they thought they could get away with it. Then they'd tell you that the average student changes majors 11 times in his college experience, so don't worry Mom & Dad, your son has only changed his major 7 times, he must be a far above average student, you should be very proud!

Saw a great interview today on www.thestreet.com. The interviewee was monetarily breaking down (very loosly) the financial dynamics of college and the job market. His conclusion, 95% of todays college students are not making fiscally good decisions to go to college. When most people were asked about the top three reasons to go to college, education was not one of the answers. He maintains that education is much more easily gained now, than in the past, and most of America is not going to work for big corporations, so there is no need of the degree. Although I am not advocating not going to college, the argument was quite compelling.

I do believe that college institutions are there for the betterment on college institutions. I don't understand why the same skepticism applied to any major purchase isn't applied to colleges?

Let's see,

My son left school early yesterday for a bus ride to an away game and got back around 8:30 in the evening and had a class this morning at 7:30. It is a hour commute to school.

They left today for a 4 day away tournament. He will be back late Sunday.

I think I know why they recommend 12 units.

quote:

Originally posted by Dooer:
Let's see,

My son left school early yesterday for a bus ride to an away game and got back around 8:30 in the evening and had a class this morning at 7:30. It is a hour commute to school.

They left today for a 4 day away tournament. He will be back late Sunday.

I think I know why they recommend 12 units.

My son leaves tomorrow on a 3 day series. He is currently taking 22 hours, as is every other freshman on the team, and none are electives. There is not a single player in academic trouble.

TR,
Again, they told your son the night before he wouldn't be playing that year. You are a freshman in your freshman year, athletically and academically then the next year a redshirt freshman athletically and a sophmore academically.

It doesn't matter either, but I know that you like to point out I don't know what I am talking about. Not this time. You brought it up. Go look it up on ncaa.org.

Go to a college roster and see if you find any first year frshman listed as RS freshman.

Dooer,

Thanks for the response. Do you know how many credits he needs to graduate and how many he has to have by his second year to stay eligible?

You know I find this interesting,baseball parents take so much time and effort and money in getting their son's recruited to go to college, recruiting visits, baseball questions, redshirt questions, etc. They don't trust the coaches half the time but trust the academic advisors. No one ever asks about academics around here. Yet so many say it isn't about baseball but about getting a degree, IT IS ABOUT BASEBALLFOR MOST.

Parents and players flip out when their player has to redshirt, but no questions asked about how many credits he needs to stay eligible.

I know it has nothing to do with this thread, but interesting observation.

I guess this is why the NCAA made the new rules.

JMO.

For those are you who have sons who have been redshirted, you may want to count it as a Blessing. My son's college coach wasted one full year of eligibility for one at-bat in one game (1 and 1/2 innings) his Freshman year. I fought with the NCAA for three years about this to no avail.

quote:

My son leaves tomorrow on a 3 day series. He is currently taking 22 hours, as is every other freshman on the team, and none are electives. There is not a single player in academic trouble.

Your son and all his teammates have my total respect; however, as students at Westpoint, they are among the academically elite. Most likely, they scored 1200 or more on the SAT (2-part) or they wouldn't have been admitted in the first place.

I know of a number of high school and college players who are either not academically gifted or not inclined to do the type of work required of your son. Not saying it's something to be proud of -- it's just reality.

Dooer,
Mine did the same as yours (as does everyone) and was required to have 32 credits by end of his first year. And 98 end of his junior year with no summer school.

BTW, he played 5 games a week for 3 years.

Parents want their players to get scholarships to pay for school but don't realize end of 4 years they have two more left at FULL COST.

Wait until they tell the players who want to play summer ball they have to go to school.

This is not directed to you, but I am in agreement with CPLZ.

JMO, any program that keeps their players at the minimum each semester is not doing that player justice.

quote:

Originally posted by Catfish:
For those are you who have sons who have been redshirted, you may want to count it as a Blessing. My son's college coach wasted one full year of eligibility for one at-bat in one game (1 and 1/2 innings) his Freshman year. I fought with the NCAA for three years about this to no avail.

Now that I agree is NOT fair. But that is not usually how it works. The coach blew his eligibility and they shouldn't do that. The coach needs to make up his mind and ask the player beforehand or be honest. Most likely he had no redshirt to give out to him. The right thing to do is to make that desicion he would not play before the season as was the case in TR's son. Then he becomes a redshirt the following year.

BTW TR, above is the perfect example of why it's not declared until after the championship season.

If08,
They (WP cadets) also live in a different environment that fosters time and opportunity to meet academic goals.

Mine was more to illustrate that carrying a normal, 15 hour, academic load is not the weight of the world while engaging in athletics.

It is usually a matter of finding balance. Balancing social activities with academics. As a parent, I would hope to force that balance to be more academic oriented and remind my student of the reason he's there.

TPM,

To my knowledge, at my son's school they are not required to complete more then 24 semester units per year. If I am wrong, we are in trouble. He has already been accepted to a collegiate summer league.

By the way, he is not on scholarship. He was a recruited walkon. Maybe next year.

Thank goodness for academic scholarships and government grants.

Dooer,
Find out what your son needs to graduate (semester hours) that's the key.

My son's major was 132 credit hours so by his second year, he needed to be hovering around 65-66 for the half way mark.

Stating your son is a walk on at this time makes it a little bit more understandable. However, IMO, if my son is getting any type of money from anyone to go to school, he's taking the credits needed to graduate.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Catfish:
For those are you who have sons who have been redshirted, you may want to count it as a Blessing. My son's college coach wasted one full year of eligibility for one at-bat in one game (1 and 1/2 innings) his Freshman year. I fought with the NCAA for three years about this to no avail.

Now that I agree is NOT fair. But that is not usually how it works.

We know a handful of college players who, in the course of one year, have pitched exactly one inning or who had one at bat or played one inning in the field. I'll bet that happens more than one would think. And yes....

quote:

By TPM: The coach blew his eligibility and they shouldn't do that. The coach needs to make up his mind and ask the player beforehand or be honest. The right thing to do is to make that decision he would not play before the season.

Or once a player has stepped on the field during a game, the coach should put him in again...perhaps during the blow-outs (by either side) to rest the starters and even the second string. To burn up a kid's eligibility for one only inning during the course of an entire college season is unconscionable (in my opinion, of course). But it happens.

playbaseball, good point and that has been mine too.