As far as bad behavior...that is well documented.
I do believe there is an renewed effort to re-align aberrant behavior.
My experence with pro ball is limited, but it seems that stats in minor league baseball doesn't tell the whole story. There are many components that go into who is and who isn't a prospect.
It's my opinion prospects don't get released no matter what round or bonus. They are what the Clubs have been spending thousands of dollars to find and to develope.
If there is no room for a prospect in the organization then he is traded.
It's my opinion prospects don't get released no matter what round or bonus. They are what the Clubs have been spending thousands of dollars to find and to develope.
If there is no room for a prospect in the organization then he is traded.
CatSureMom,
The reason I mention being confused is because I'm involved in this stuff and I am confused.
We try to follow this stuff very closely. Lots of experience here regarding these things.
Yes, early round guys are given more time and need to prove they can't play. The low round (non-money) guys need to prove they can play. This allows the early round guys to stick around longer, but it doesn't stop the low round guys from performing well enough to pass them. That has happened thousands of times in every organization.
The normal process is based on performance, ability and potential.
For those who believe a .300 average is nothing special, here are some stats from last year.
182 Minor League teams had a total of 146 players hit .300 or better. Far less than one player per each minor league team.
Over 5,000 minor league players of which 146 hit .300 or better.
Less than 3 out of each 100 minor league players hit .300 at all of the various levels.
The highest number of .300 hitters were in the AAA Pacific Coast League, they had 22 of them. There were some entire leagues (not teams) that had two (2) players hit .300 or better.
A five tool player grades out "at least" major league average in fielding, throwing, running, hitting and hitting for power. If one of the few 5 tool players were to also be one of the few who hits over .300 at any level of pro baseball, it would absolutely surprise me to see that player released. (There in lies the confusion with this example) Unless there were other problems involved this player should have been picked up immediately by another club.
Without anyone knowing who the player in question is, I can't figure out what to restate! These are professional players, we can mention names… without a real example, I can only comment on what I have seen over a very long period of time. Something is definitely wrong in this situation. It is very rare to see a player hit over .300 and possess all 5 tools and get released… Very Rare! I’m not sure I can think of a single case of that ever happening unless there were something more involved.
There is not any conspiracy going on, they really do want the best players. That said, they do make mistakes and that is why there are so many guys in the Big Leagues who had been released at some point in their past.
The reason I mention being confused is because I'm involved in this stuff and I am confused.
We try to follow this stuff very closely. Lots of experience here regarding these things.
Yes, early round guys are given more time and need to prove they can't play. The low round (non-money) guys need to prove they can play. This allows the early round guys to stick around longer, but it doesn't stop the low round guys from performing well enough to pass them. That has happened thousands of times in every organization.
The normal process is based on performance, ability and potential.
For those who believe a .300 average is nothing special, here are some stats from last year.
182 Minor League teams had a total of 146 players hit .300 or better. Far less than one player per each minor league team.
Over 5,000 minor league players of which 146 hit .300 or better.
Less than 3 out of each 100 minor league players hit .300 at all of the various levels.
The highest number of .300 hitters were in the AAA Pacific Coast League, they had 22 of them. There were some entire leagues (not teams) that had two (2) players hit .300 or better.
A five tool player grades out "at least" major league average in fielding, throwing, running, hitting and hitting for power. If one of the few 5 tool players were to also be one of the few who hits over .300 at any level of pro baseball, it would absolutely surprise me to see that player released. (There in lies the confusion with this example) Unless there were other problems involved this player should have been picked up immediately by another club.
Without anyone knowing who the player in question is, I can't figure out what to restate! These are professional players, we can mention names… without a real example, I can only comment on what I have seen over a very long period of time. Something is definitely wrong in this situation. It is very rare to see a player hit over .300 and possess all 5 tools and get released… Very Rare! I’m not sure I can think of a single case of that ever happening unless there were something more involved.
There is not any conspiracy going on, they really do want the best players. That said, they do make mistakes and that is why there are so many guys in the Big Leagues who had been released at some point in their past.
I know a player who hit .300 and was released....not surprisingly by the rangers. Rob Valiente career .300 hitter over two seasons, check the stats, just thought i'd note that, and he had no off the field problems
A few questons if someone can answer.
Aren't many players drafted on future potential?
Aren't some players drafted because of a team's MLB needs?
Aren't many players drafted to fill just organizational needs?
Out of 50 picks an organization gets, how many are truely bonus picks (and how many actually sign)?
That was always my impression, is it wrong?
As far as lower picks having to give way to the bonus players, I know of a 40th round player who is listed as a top 10 prospect in his organization, after 3 years. It doesn't happen everyday, but it does happen.
Aren't many players drafted on future potential?
Aren't some players drafted because of a team's MLB needs?
Aren't many players drafted to fill just organizational needs?
Out of 50 picks an organization gets, how many are truely bonus picks (and how many actually sign)?
That was always my impression, is it wrong?
As far as lower picks having to give way to the bonus players, I know of a 40th round player who is listed as a top 10 prospect in his organization, after 3 years. It doesn't happen everyday, but it does happen.
Valiente sure did deserve a better chance, but the other stuff doesn't always have to mean bad behavior.
Rob was 24 years old this year and needed to be above A ball. Can't remember the rules but I think there can be only so many players at ceretain ages in the lower levels. Not sure if that played into this or not.
He did hit .287 in the Cal league last year, but with 1 HR and 12 RBI in 57 games.
I'm sure his age was working against him a bit.
Age is more likely to work against a player in lower levels of Minor League baseball more than size.
I would say, Valiente probably got the short end of the stick. Not a 5 tool player, but he hit well enough, though not with power, still enough that you'd think they would have given him a better chance.
It really does help to know who we are talking about, when discussing these players. Each case is one we can learn from. Then there is the opinion of the club, that's the opinion that counts the most.
I hope he hooks up with someone. Sounds like he deserves the opportunity.
Rob was 24 years old this year and needed to be above A ball. Can't remember the rules but I think there can be only so many players at ceretain ages in the lower levels. Not sure if that played into this or not.
He did hit .287 in the Cal league last year, but with 1 HR and 12 RBI in 57 games.
I'm sure his age was working against him a bit.
Age is more likely to work against a player in lower levels of Minor League baseball more than size.
I would say, Valiente probably got the short end of the stick. Not a 5 tool player, but he hit well enough, though not with power, still enough that you'd think they would have given him a better chance.
It really does help to know who we are talking about, when discussing these players. Each case is one we can learn from. Then there is the opinion of the club, that's the opinion that counts the most.
I hope he hooks up with someone. Sounds like he deserves the opportunity.
quote:Originally posted by AHSpitcher17:
I know a player who hit .300 and was released....not surprisingly by the rangers. Rob Valiente career .300 hitter over two seasons, check the stats, just thought i'd note that, and he had no off the field problems
Don't know the player, but I checked the stats. Hit .316 two years ago, wasn't released. Hit .287 last year in a hitter friendly league, released.
Sorry, PG beat me to it.
TPM,
Here is how I see it, FWIW
Aren't many players drafted on future potential?
Yes
Aren't some players drafted because of a team's MLB needs?
In some cases, others just take the best player available
Aren't many players drafted to fill just organizational needs?
Sometimes, not that many though and often organizational players sign as free agents
Out of 50 picks an organization gets, how many are truely bonus picks (and how many actually sign)?[/quote]
Not sure without researching it, but you will see most clubs will sign nearly all of their first 10 picks or so and about 20 draft picks signing sounds normal. I could be off a bit and each club does this differently.
Here is how I see it, FWIW
Aren't many players drafted on future potential?
Yes
Aren't some players drafted because of a team's MLB needs?
In some cases, others just take the best player available
Aren't many players drafted to fill just organizational needs?
Sometimes, not that many though and often organizational players sign as free agents
Out of 50 picks an organization gets, how many are truely bonus picks (and how many actually sign)?[/quote]
Not sure without researching it, but you will see most clubs will sign nearly all of their first 10 picks or so and about 20 draft picks signing sounds normal. I could be off a bit and each club does this differently.
PG and bbscout, you were absolutely right....I went back to re-check (I respect what you both bring to this site), I clicked into wrong guy (close names).
So, the .300 was way wrong, he actually hit almost exactly what the first rounder I mentioned hit, with same # at bats) The 5-tool part is not my words, so I can stand on that. In effect, it does not change the spirit of my original point, but it would absolutely cause the confusion you spoke of.
My most sincere apology.
I have tried to be clear in my respect for each player and their journey, and that my "position" is only that the field is not that level.
What I say about the way MiLB players are treated is not my opinion alone, it is not my assumption alone...it is well understood by anyone remotely involved.
It is a beautiful dream with an often harsh reality for those lower round warriors.
So, the .300 was way wrong, he actually hit almost exactly what the first rounder I mentioned hit, with same # at bats) The 5-tool part is not my words, so I can stand on that. In effect, it does not change the spirit of my original point, but it would absolutely cause the confusion you spoke of.
My most sincere apology.
I have tried to be clear in my respect for each player and their journey, and that my "position" is only that the field is not that level.
What I say about the way MiLB players are treated is not my opinion alone, it is not my assumption alone...it is well understood by anyone remotely involved.
It is a beautiful dream with an often harsh reality for those lower round warriors.
I do not recall mentioning a conspiracy!
CatSureMom,
I know where you are coming from and I agree it is not a level playing field.
My son is one of those lower round guys and is well aware of what it's going to take for him to get the same opportunities as the higher round guys. He's giving it a shot anyway. Hopefully he can get healthy and see what he can do.
Kind of like the size issue. Bigger guys will have to prove they can't play while the little guys have to prove they can play.
I know where you are coming from and I agree it is not a level playing field.
My son is one of those lower round guys and is well aware of what it's going to take for him to get the same opportunities as the higher round guys. He's giving it a shot anyway. Hopefully he can get healthy and see what he can do.
Kind of like the size issue. Bigger guys will have to prove they can't play while the little guys have to prove they can play.
CatSureMom,
I didn't intend that for you. That reminds me that I have this bad habit of sometimes posting something directed to someone and then go on past that point. (just babbling I guess)
That said, it does really bother me when I read comments about how players are treated. It isn't an easy life, but it's one that most everyone who plays tends to enjoy. Those who don't enjoy it, are best off hanging it up. Sometimes (not you) people make it sound like these kids are in prison or something. They are living their dream and most can't wait for the next season.
I have been much more than remotely involved. I think the players are treated very well, other than they should be compensated better. But we have to remember, minor leaguers do not make the Major League clubs any money! In fact, they cost the Major League clubs a lot of money jus giving these players an opportunity to develop. What job exists where the employee makes lots of money without the employer making any from their efforts? The Minor Leaguer who never makes it ends up costing the club a lot of money. The ones they have a big investment in, cost them the most if they don't make it.
Playing professional baseball is a good thing in my book. Playing college baseball is also a good thing in my book. Playing any level of baseball is a good thing. And yes, I have some personal disappointing stories also.
I didn't intend that for you. That reminds me that I have this bad habit of sometimes posting something directed to someone and then go on past that point. (just babbling I guess)
That said, it does really bother me when I read comments about how players are treated. It isn't an easy life, but it's one that most everyone who plays tends to enjoy. Those who don't enjoy it, are best off hanging it up. Sometimes (not you) people make it sound like these kids are in prison or something. They are living their dream and most can't wait for the next season.
I have been much more than remotely involved. I think the players are treated very well, other than they should be compensated better. But we have to remember, minor leaguers do not make the Major League clubs any money! In fact, they cost the Major League clubs a lot of money jus giving these players an opportunity to develop. What job exists where the employee makes lots of money without the employer making any from their efforts? The Minor Leaguer who never makes it ends up costing the club a lot of money. The ones they have a big investment in, cost them the most if they don't make it.
Playing professional baseball is a good thing in my book. Playing college baseball is also a good thing in my book. Playing any level of baseball is a good thing. And yes, I have some personal disappointing stories also.
PG, you are right in what you say, the ones there would not trade away the opportunity to live their dream or give their dream a fighting chance. Most, if they could, would pay MLB to have that chance! Yes you are deeply involved, a caring and giving person who maintains friendships with players, a huge contributor to this game. It is obvious to me you are a wonderful person and totally knowledgeable about this game...all aspects.
It all started because a man's opinion (one who lived it and knows first hand) was treated with undue sarcasm. He did not need me to defend his stance, but I felt compelled to support the truth.
If it had been you, I would have done the same.
I don't know any of you, but the truth is the truth. The truth should not be minimized if the evidence supports it.
It all started because a man's opinion (one who lived it and knows first hand) was treated with undue sarcasm. He did not need me to defend his stance, but I felt compelled to support the truth.
If it had been you, I would have done the same.
I don't know any of you, but the truth is the truth. The truth should not be minimized if the evidence supports it.
PG,
Is there any way to actually measure what a minor-leaguer costs a club. Is it just the $1,150/mo + benefits + signing bonus. Do the minor league team owners pay the coaching staff or does the MLB team? I know the checks are cut from the MLB team to each player? What else is the split between minor league owners and MLB as far as expense?
Is there any way to actually measure what a minor-leaguer costs a club. Is it just the $1,150/mo + benefits + signing bonus. Do the minor league team owners pay the coaching staff or does the MLB team? I know the checks are cut from the MLB team to each player? What else is the split between minor league owners and MLB as far as expense?
If nobody has any objections, I am going to send a note to Julie and see if we can get this thread in the Golden Threads forum 
CatSureMom,
You are a class act! I'm usually not very controversial, but I love to see young kids live the dream. I understand reality is important, I just don't have any interest in it! You always try to stick up for players, and I admire that.
BTW, to kind of stick with the theme here... One of our guys compiled this top 10 list for pgcrosschecker.com. Kind of interesting I think.
Top 10 Late Round Picks who are active
1 - Mike Piazza - 62nd rd
2 - Kenny Rogers - 39th rd
3 - Travis Hafner - 31st rd
4 - Jeff Conine - 58th rd
5 - Jason Isringhausen - 44th rd
6 - Brad Ausmus - 48th rd
7 - Raul Ibanez - 36th rd
8 - Woody Williams - 30th rd
9 - Marcus Giles - 53rd rd
10 - Dave Roberts - 28th rd
You are a class act! I'm usually not very controversial, but I love to see young kids live the dream. I understand reality is important, I just don't have any interest in it! You always try to stick up for players, and I admire that.
BTW, to kind of stick with the theme here... One of our guys compiled this top 10 list for pgcrosschecker.com. Kind of interesting I think.
Top 10 Late Round Picks who are active
1 - Mike Piazza - 62nd rd
2 - Kenny Rogers - 39th rd
3 - Travis Hafner - 31st rd
4 - Jeff Conine - 58th rd
5 - Jason Isringhausen - 44th rd
6 - Brad Ausmus - 48th rd
7 - Raul Ibanez - 36th rd
8 - Woody Williams - 30th rd
9 - Marcus Giles - 53rd rd
10 - Dave Roberts - 28th rd
quote:Top 10 Late Round Picks who are active
1 - Mike Piazza - 62nd rd
2 - Kenny Rogers - 39th rd
3 - Travis Hafner - 31st rd
4 - Jeff Conine - 58th rd
5 - Jason Isringhausen - 44th rd
6 - Brad Ausmus - 48th rd
7 - Raul Ibanez - 36th rd
8 - Woody Williams - 30th rd
9 - Marcus Giles - 53rd rd
10 - Dave Roberts - 28th rd
That is an amazing list. Travis Haffner is a poster boy player for the high school baseball web. He grew up in South Dakota and they didn't play high school ball where he was from. All he played while growing up was American Legion ball in the summer time. So the next time someone asks, is it necessary to play in high school or on an elite travel team, just point them to him.
baseballpapa ...
I do know that the coaching staff, the trainers, the conditioning guys are all employees of the MLB, not the MiLB team. So they are paid directly by the MLB club.
As far as costs (for minor leagues) to the club during the year, I will hazard a guess as to what costs are picked up by the MLB club:
In spring training,
(a) they don't pay a salary to the players but they do pay a per diem which varies depending on whether the player is living in the team hotel or not;
(b) they pay to keep the clubhouses open for many hours each day while the minor leaguers areworkikng out;
(c) they keep the training room open for the players who are rehabbing or need some TLC as they get ready for the year;
(d) they pay driving or flying expenses when the players leave for their assigned team;
(e) they pay hotel costs at the new town (my son's team covers hotels for 3 days as most players have arranged their housing before they leave spring training;
(f) they pay the coaching staff, team trainer, etc., and the costs associated with relocating to the assigned city (e.g., hotel, mileage, etc);
All this time in spring training, they are NOT making $$ from these teams in spring training. The MLB players are the draw for ST games and the stadiums get pretty full, so there may be some money there but I strongly suspect it doesn't pay all the costs.
During the regular season ...
(a) they pay salaries for the players, coaches, etc.
(b) they pay meal money when the team travels;
(c) they pay travel expenses (bus for everybody but MLB and AAA), hotels, etc.
(d) they pay for the front office staff to travel around the country to check on the minor league teams;
(e) they pay 'pro scouts' who travel around the country to scout the minor league players for other clubs (for trade purposes)
I do know that the coaching staff, the trainers, the conditioning guys are all employees of the MLB, not the MiLB team. So they are paid directly by the MLB club.
As far as costs (for minor leagues) to the club during the year, I will hazard a guess as to what costs are picked up by the MLB club:
In spring training,
(a) they don't pay a salary to the players but they do pay a per diem which varies depending on whether the player is living in the team hotel or not;
(b) they pay to keep the clubhouses open for many hours each day while the minor leaguers areworkikng out;
(c) they keep the training room open for the players who are rehabbing or need some TLC as they get ready for the year;
(d) they pay driving or flying expenses when the players leave for their assigned team;
(e) they pay hotel costs at the new town (my son's team covers hotels for 3 days as most players have arranged their housing before they leave spring training;
(f) they pay the coaching staff, team trainer, etc., and the costs associated with relocating to the assigned city (e.g., hotel, mileage, etc);
All this time in spring training, they are NOT making $$ from these teams in spring training. The MLB players are the draw for ST games and the stadiums get pretty full, so there may be some money there but I strongly suspect it doesn't pay all the costs.
During the regular season ...
(a) they pay salaries for the players, coaches, etc.
(b) they pay meal money when the team travels;
(c) they pay travel expenses (bus for everybody but MLB and AAA), hotels, etc.
(d) they pay for the front office staff to travel around the country to check on the minor league teams;
(e) they pay 'pro scouts' who travel around the country to scout the minor league players for other clubs (for trade purposes)
Baseballpapa,
I could have some of this mixed up slightly, but I don't think so. Here is an attempt at answering. Others can add or disagree if they wish.
Is there any way to actually measure what a minor-leaguer costs a club.
I think it has been said the minor leagues cost the major League club over $4 million a year. All they stand to benefit is when a player makes there MLB club. So if you took the roughly 180 players in a MLB clubs Minor League system it comes out to about $23,000 per player.
Is it just the $1,150/mo + benefits + signing bonus. Not counting the signing bonus, other costs include: MLB club pays for 75% of all balls and bats. They provide all the necessary equipment and travel expense to and from the team. There are probably some other things I'm not thinking of.
Do the minor league team owners pay the coaching staff or does the MLB team? The MLB club pays for all coaches, instructors, scouts, players, etc.
I know the checks are cut from the MLB team to each player? True
What else is the split between minor league owners and MLB as far as expense? Equipment (balls, bats, etc) 75% the MLB pays for, minor league club pays for uniforms, MLB pays for meal money... Minor League team gets reimbursed, club pays hotel and bus travel to games. Minor League club keeps all the profits from gate, concessions, souvineers, etc. and has to pay their own staff which includes ground crew. Minor League also pays umpires. I'm sure there's a lot more, I either don't know or have forgotten.
Note: Sorry I was typing this when FutureBack.Mom was posting.
I could have some of this mixed up slightly, but I don't think so. Here is an attempt at answering. Others can add or disagree if they wish.
Is there any way to actually measure what a minor-leaguer costs a club.
I think it has been said the minor leagues cost the major League club over $4 million a year. All they stand to benefit is when a player makes there MLB club. So if you took the roughly 180 players in a MLB clubs Minor League system it comes out to about $23,000 per player.
Is it just the $1,150/mo + benefits + signing bonus. Not counting the signing bonus, other costs include: MLB club pays for 75% of all balls and bats. They provide all the necessary equipment and travel expense to and from the team. There are probably some other things I'm not thinking of.
Do the minor league team owners pay the coaching staff or does the MLB team? The MLB club pays for all coaches, instructors, scouts, players, etc.
I know the checks are cut from the MLB team to each player? True
What else is the split between minor league owners and MLB as far as expense? Equipment (balls, bats, etc) 75% the MLB pays for, minor league club pays for uniforms, MLB pays for meal money... Minor League team gets reimbursed, club pays hotel and bus travel to games. Minor League club keeps all the profits from gate, concessions, souvineers, etc. and has to pay their own staff which includes ground crew. Minor League also pays umpires. I'm sure there's a lot more, I either don't know or have forgotten.
Note: Sorry I was typing this when FutureBack.Mom was posting.
Great info, appreciate the time. By the way, to continue the original theme. I still think any player who has ever played minor league ball is a stud. When you look at the number of little kids who dream of playing baseball at upper levels, at the sea of kids who play Little League, or Dixie or even tournament ball, and then only 9 - 12 play much on a high school team, then only some of those are good enough to play college, and a relatively elite few are able to try, just try, pro ball -- they are studs. I had a coach tell me he "just got to AAA ball." We sometimes lose perspective on just how good a high school player is, much less college or professional.
should that be properly footnoted to Bud?quote:by PG: minor leaguers do not make the Major League clubs any money! In fact, they cost the Major League clubs a lot of money just giving these players an opportunity to develop. What job exists where the employee makes lots of money without the employer making any from their efforts?
again PG, you guys are awesome & to be commended for the job you do re player scouting/eval ...
BUT, you may be so close to the situation your view is impared ..
parroting the "company line" of your customer will likely ruffle fan feathers
minor leaguers are employees in training , just like trainees at Goodyear, IBM, Microsoft, CNN, Walmart, Joe's Car Wash, or any other business -
their training expense is MORE THAN JUSTIFIED historicly by their future contributions
(btw, many corp trainees don't make it) -
IF the training cost is not justified that corp isn't around too long ...
and what corp can just increase revenue by raising their prices every yr even if their product is "less desirable" than last yrs??
baseball has been around a looong while ...
so, we must "guess" it works the same way in MLB -
why guess?? ... because their books are SECRET!! ..
tho MLB crys there is not enough profit, they don't fully disclose financials, even to THEIR OWN players assoc.,
& their franchise market values (both MLB & MiLB) continue to spiral ever higher.
hmmmm ... odd for a business losing $$$
Selig made $14.5 million last year from his MLB salary, expenses and bonuses. Players are the product. Minor league baseball is Product Development AND Production. Products only produce income at market. MLB happens to have 95% plus of product not reach market. Coaches are employees, imo. Nobody goes to a game to watch them.
"If nobody has any objections, I am going to send a note to Julie and see if we can get this thread in the Golden Threads forum"
Thank you for the suggestion! I am creating a shortcut in Golden Threads so that members and visitors can find this thread in both places.
Julie
Thank you for the suggestion! I am creating a shortcut in Golden Threads so that members and visitors can find this thread in both places.
Julie
Thanks Julie for moving this and all your hard work
pg
very interesting top 10 list. it would also be interesting to know how many late round picks there are in the majors. i don't know the answer but i think it would open some eyes. but i'm just guessing.
very interesting top 10 list. it would also be interesting to know how many late round picks there are in the majors. i don't know the answer but i think it would open some eyes. but i'm just guessing.
quote:Posted by Bee - BUT, you may be so close to the situation your view is impared ..
parroting the "company line" of your customer will likely ruffle fan feathers
My mind might be impaired, but I think my view is fairly accurate. Sorry I didn't understand the parroting the company line part?
I did like your comparison to trainees, but baseball is a game. Most would all choose baseball over Goodyear or Walmart.
And I don't recall saying MLB clubs are losing money. I'm just trying to answer some questions that have been asked here as honestly as I can. I have no interest in misleading anyone or parroting any company lines.
I believe minor league players should be paid more. I believe many MLB players are grossly over paid. I think there are some unfair things that happen. I really like Justin Upton, but don't understand how any high school player could be worth more than what they pay to operate their complete minor league system for an entire year. I just don't know what to do about all the stuff that goes on. Don't know what to do about Bud Selig's astronomical salary. I agree that lots of things are out of whack.
And it still makes you feel great when a young player beats all the odds in baseball, whether that is pro, college, high school, or any other level.
All that said... The way it is... there's a great big reward for those who reach their goal. And for the rest, it still turns out to be an education with real experience. All of the important lessons don't have to take place in a class room. That is why they came up with internships.
thanks for the reply - I appologize if I misunderstood your commentquote:I didn't understand the parroting the company line part?
the corp comparison was to illustrate that training is done thru-out the business world, not that anyone would choose another career over baseball.
and MiLB pay is what it is .. if it was too unfair, they'd have difficulty filling rosters
I think I've figured the color thingy out now
"minor leaguers do not make the Major League clubs any money! In fact, they cost the Major League clubs a lot of money just giving these players an opportunity to develop"
perhaps that just sounds like MLB's "company line" regarding their generosity ...
in fact it's just not true at all.
player/employee development is a necessary element to MLB, but the profit payback for development costs is just deferred to a later time, as it is in any other businesses.
if developments costs were never recouped, MLB would have been out of business long ago or run by the government. it's misleading to cite an example of a particular player/bonus and reach any conclusion ... but it's pretty easy to see in a historic perspective
it doesn't matter how much they spend if it's "recouped plus" later -
Forbes magazine estimates values of MLB teams rose about 30% from 2004 to 2006 w/revenue increases far outpacing player salaries
so pick your favorite team .. compare it's value of 10 yrs ago to todays value.
a portion of that increase in value is directly attributable to the "product on the field"
aka: player development.
btw, neither Goodyear nor IBM has had "state of the art" corporate headquarters & development centers built thru-out the US by us taxpayers
Bee,
Once again, I was just trying to reply as honestly as possible to a topic brought up by someone else. I'm surely not disputing anything you have said.
Didn't say development costs were ruining MLB organizations. Just said, it costs a MLB club around $23,000 each year to develop those players. That amount does not cover things like insurance, instructional ball, scouting departments, etc.
Just trying to honestly answer a question. sorry if it sounded like the "company line". I will always be on the side of the players, before the pro clubs or colleges. Possibly it wasn't written the way it was intended?
But to continue...
All 30 teams do not profit exactly the same. (The Yankees make more than the D'Rays) The real value in most teams is if and when a team is sold.
The bottom line is players decide what they want to do. Microsoft makes more money than a MLB club... That doesn't mean they will pay their trainees above whatever they think is right.
This topic is not about MLB clubs and their earnings (though it did turn that way). It's about players being released and treated unfairly. I personally do not feel like players are treated any more unfairly than most other occupations. It's not easy by any means, it is the entertainment field. I'm not sure what other athletes, actors, singers, etc., are compensated while in training.
All that said, I still think things are out of line. I just don't have the business knowledge to understand it all, let alone argue about it.
Once again, I was just trying to reply as honestly as possible to a topic brought up by someone else. I'm surely not disputing anything you have said.
Didn't say development costs were ruining MLB organizations. Just said, it costs a MLB club around $23,000 each year to develop those players. That amount does not cover things like insurance, instructional ball, scouting departments, etc.
Just trying to honestly answer a question. sorry if it sounded like the "company line". I will always be on the side of the players, before the pro clubs or colleges. Possibly it wasn't written the way it was intended?
But to continue...
All 30 teams do not profit exactly the same. (The Yankees make more than the D'Rays) The real value in most teams is if and when a team is sold.
The bottom line is players decide what they want to do. Microsoft makes more money than a MLB club... That doesn't mean they will pay their trainees above whatever they think is right.
This topic is not about MLB clubs and their earnings (though it did turn that way). It's about players being released and treated unfairly. I personally do not feel like players are treated any more unfairly than most other occupations. It's not easy by any means, it is the entertainment field. I'm not sure what other athletes, actors, singers, etc., are compensated while in training.
All that said, I still think things are out of line. I just don't have the business knowledge to understand it all, let alone argue about it.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:should that be properly footnoted to Bud?quote:by PG: minor leaguers do not make the Major League clubs any money! In fact, they cost the Major League clubs a lot of money just giving these players an opportunity to develop. What job exists where the employee makes lots of money without the employer making any from their efforts?
again PG, you guys are awesome & to be commended for the job you do re player scouting/eval ...
BUT, you may be so close to the situation your view is impared ..
parroting the "company line" of your customer will likely ruffle fan feathers
minor leaguers are employees in training , just like trainees at Goodyear, IBM, Microsoft, CNN, Walmart, Joe's Car Wash, or any other business -
their training expense is MORE THAN JUSTIFIED historicly by their future contributions
(btw, many corp trainees don't make it) -
IF the training cost is not justified that corp isn't around too long ...
and what corp can just increase revenue by raising their prices every yr even if their product is "less desirable" than last yrs??
baseball has been around a looong while ...
so, we must "guess" it works the same way in MLB -
why guess?? ... because their books are SECRET!! ..
tho MLB crys there is not enough profit, they don't fully disclose financials, even to THEIR OWN players assoc.,
& their franchise market values (both MLB & MiLB) continue to spiral ever higher.
hmmmm ... odd for a business losing $$$
I don't feel that PG is too close to the situation at all. What I think is that he has a lot of knowledge about what is really happening in baseball and the people on this board are fortunate to have him posting here.
quote:It's not easy by any means, it is the entertainment field. I'm not sure what other athletes, actors, singers, etc., are compensated while in training.
Good point. How many times have we heard of the struggling actor or singer bussing tables in NY or LA waiting for their opportunity to arrive?
If you look at some of the beautiful ball parks out there in MiLB, and built by the taxpayers as Bee noted, I don't believe people are losing money operating these franchises. They have wealthy owners just like the big league clubs and I am guessing they expect to turn a profit.
I do believe what Bud Selig makes is absurd. They could offer that job out at one to two million dollars per year and have hundreds of people lining up to take it who are more competent imho. They should take about 10 million of his income and distribute a couple thousand each to all the struggling players out there.
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
I don't feel that PG is too close to the situation at all. What I think is that he has a lot of knowledge about what is really happening in baseball and the people on this board are fortunate to have him posting here.
I agree
Regressing a bit to the thread's beginning:
Shane-- Your comment about getting a pyschologist and hoping to get your head right reminded me of a notable player in our local club, the Atlanta Braves: John Smoltz. It was a big deal a decade ago (+/-) when John was really struggling on the mound and ended up seeing a sports psychologist. It became very public and was a little bit controversial at the time. Not many had even heard of sports psychologists and the fact he was seeing one was fodder for teasing, debate, and much speculation. Look at the pay-off. He DID get his head together and has had a great run!
I understand he still sees his psychologist from time to time to stay on track. I hope the person you end up with does the same for you. Don't give it a second thought. Think of it as just another kind of coaching-- mental coaching.
Shane-- Your comment about getting a pyschologist and hoping to get your head right reminded me of a notable player in our local club, the Atlanta Braves: John Smoltz. It was a big deal a decade ago (+/-) when John was really struggling on the mound and ended up seeing a sports psychologist. It became very public and was a little bit controversial at the time. Not many had even heard of sports psychologists and the fact he was seeing one was fodder for teasing, debate, and much speculation. Look at the pay-off. He DID get his head together and has had a great run!
I understand he still sees his psychologist from time to time to stay on track. I hope the person you end up with does the same for you. Don't give it a second thought. Think of it as just another kind of coaching-- mental coaching.
I agree with that and value your views as wellquote:by bbscout: I think is that he (PG) has a lot of knowledge about what is really happening in baseball and the people on this board are fortunate to have him posting here.
guess I was a bit confused by PG's view that player development costs are a gesture of MLB's generosity offering no return on the investment. your response seems to agree, so perhaps I'll reconsider my position
thanks as always
Quill- My dad brought something up about Smoltz seeing one the other day, but he never went in depth about it. Apparently he was just doin horrible and the guy turned him around. I dont know what his problem was but it is encouraging to know that even big leaguers see shrinks from time to time
Shane,
Many more than you realize seek help from time to time.
My understanding is that it is not uncommon for MLB players to seek out help, whether professional or through other players who have had similar mental blocks. However, interesting also is that many times mechanics need to be adjusted.
Randy Johnson went through a period of a few years where he struggled. One day Nolan Ryan noticed something that he was doing (pointing foot a SLIGHT bit to third, which threw his mechanics off). After adjustments he was fine. He states this in his book.
You might want to consider seeking advice regarding something in your delivery that may be off causing you to be unable to throw strikes, which in turn leads to fear of failing and anxiety. I thought it interesting that after some years of professional ball for Johnson, another pitcher picked up on what he was doing wrong.
Many more than you realize seek help from time to time.
My understanding is that it is not uncommon for MLB players to seek out help, whether professional or through other players who have had similar mental blocks. However, interesting also is that many times mechanics need to be adjusted.
Randy Johnson went through a period of a few years where he struggled. One day Nolan Ryan noticed something that he was doing (pointing foot a SLIGHT bit to third, which threw his mechanics off). After adjustments he was fine. He states this in his book.
You might want to consider seeking advice regarding something in your delivery that may be off causing you to be unable to throw strikes, which in turn leads to fear of failing and anxiety. I thought it interesting that after some years of professional ball for Johnson, another pitcher picked up on what he was doing wrong.
Shane,
John was one of the first athletes to go public with his use of a psychologist, and I'd say he broke the ice. Lots of pros now have someone to help them with the mental side of the game.
John has spoken numerous times about his belief that his psychologist helped save his career. I believe he was coming off a big injury and couldn't get past it on the mound. Mostly a mental problem, not physical. Guess he had developed the yips?! At any rate, he credits his psychologist for the turn around and his long career. Good luck to you! I hope you find someone you jive with and who can talk you through.
John was one of the first athletes to go public with his use of a psychologist, and I'd say he broke the ice. Lots of pros now have someone to help them with the mental side of the game.
John has spoken numerous times about his belief that his psychologist helped save his career. I believe he was coming off a big injury and couldn't get past it on the mound. Mostly a mental problem, not physical. Guess he had developed the yips?! At any rate, he credits his psychologist for the turn around and his long career. Good luck to you! I hope you find someone you jive with and who can talk you through.
Shane,
I don't think of going to a sport psychologist as going to "the shrink." Its just another way to improve your game, like seeking out a personal trainer, hitting instructor, nutritionist. Its about getting an edge in a very competetive field.
I don't think of going to a sport psychologist as going to "the shrink." Its just another way to improve your game, like seeking out a personal trainer, hitting instructor, nutritionist. Its about getting an edge in a very competetive field.
The VAST majority of people on this site have acknowledged the absolute value of PG's posts.
Not once but many times...as well as your valuable input (bbscout).
Let me see, how does that old saying go? "birds of a feather stick together"
(Is that what "parroting" means)?
Not once but many times...as well as your valuable input (bbscout).
Let me see, how does that old saying go? "birds of a feather stick together"
(Is that what "parroting" means
)?
Nice post njbb, I've thought "mental game" should be the 5th tool...never thought BA was top stat anyway...the most valuable tool cannot be measured.
It (mental strength and exercise) is just one of the things that sometime need to be tweeked in this beautiful game. NO stigma anymore, the sharp guys know they need it, and they do not hesitate.
It (mental strength and exercise) is just one of the things that sometime need to be tweeked in this beautiful game. NO stigma anymore, the sharp guys know they need it, and they do not hesitate.
This thread has taken some tremendously informative turns and I am glad to see(at 8 pages into it) that Shane's situation and how he is handling it is still the main subject.
A few points FYI:
My son was a fairly low(#595) pick when he was drafted... he has been able to sneak through his organization's system, by-passing several first and second round picks, in large part due to opportunity caused by injuries to others. Right place, right time... grab it!
I chuckled when Walmart was brought into the discussion because my son worked there in his first off-season after being drafted. I often wonder just how far beyond being in charge of the candle aisle he would have managed to get(with no formal education) during the same period that he has been in pro ball.
Son's organization(notorous for their hesitance to spend $) has a psychologist on staff for their players. I met him at spring training, but am not sure if he is available to to all levels within the organization.
Keep after it Shane! Lots of folks appreciate you.
A few points FYI:
My son was a fairly low(#595) pick when he was drafted... he has been able to sneak through his organization's system, by-passing several first and second round picks, in large part due to opportunity caused by injuries to others. Right place, right time... grab it!
I chuckled when Walmart was brought into the discussion because my son worked there in his first off-season after being drafted. I often wonder just how far beyond being in charge of the candle aisle he would have managed to get(with no formal education) during the same period that he has been in pro ball.
Son's organization(notorous for their hesitance to spend $) has a psychologist on staff for their players. I met him at spring training, but am not sure if he is available to to all levels within the organization.
Keep after it Shane! Lots of folks appreciate you.