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I want to believe him, but he seemed a little too defensive...
can't wait to see mcnamee's response
can't wait to see mcnamee's response
...call me naive....but I'm one who believes him. I've never met the guy but one things for sure, his reputation is one that has never been questioned til now and his work ethic speaks volumes. RC in every stretch of the word(s) has been a team player and tremendous teammate. The fact that he chose to take so much vioxx for his pains to better the team's success over his own personal health talks loudly of the kind of competitor he was and is. Does that mean that he would take it as far as taking HGH or steroids? I'm one who believes he has not....and if I remember correctly one is innocent til otherwise proven guilty and one person making statements to save his own azz does not constitute enough for me to believe his guilt.
i do not believe his at all. taking so much vioxx only shows that he is willing to take anything to help himself. also, the guy making the accusations was threaten with legal actions if he was found to be making false accusations. it was definately not in his interest to lie. he had given them other names, naming clemens was not going to help him any more. naming clemens and it ending up not to be true would only hurt him.
Good points, Screwball.
My opinion: if a teacher were to have a big test and tell the class that the outcome of the test could earn the students millions of dollars and fame and glamour, then said please don't cheat, and I'll be back in the room to collect the tests in two hours, would the students cheat? Of course. A Harvard study showed that the FIRST reason that Harvard students didn't cheat (they of such high moral character) was fear of getting caught. And it wasn't close.
So Selig and the other owners he represents are to blame. Clemens, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Pudge, even Omar Vizquel for a year or so...and so many more probably did steroids, and you and I probably would've too in their shoes. I also think that the sales pitch by Selig of selling the Mitchell report as a comprehensive investigation is ridiculous because the list is known to be the tip of the iceberg from the year they did anonymous testing.
I do hope that Clemens doesn't grow a third ear!
My opinion: if a teacher were to have a big test and tell the class that the outcome of the test could earn the students millions of dollars and fame and glamour, then said please don't cheat, and I'll be back in the room to collect the tests in two hours, would the students cheat? Of course. A Harvard study showed that the FIRST reason that Harvard students didn't cheat (they of such high moral character) was fear of getting caught. And it wasn't close.
So Selig and the other owners he represents are to blame. Clemens, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Pudge, even Omar Vizquel for a year or so...and so many more probably did steroids, and you and I probably would've too in their shoes. I also think that the sales pitch by Selig of selling the Mitchell report as a comprehensive investigation is ridiculous because the list is known to be the tip of the iceberg from the year they did anonymous testing.
I do hope that Clemens doesn't grow a third ear!
I agree with Coach Traub... Roger did 'em just like everyone else to get ahead, to make money, to prolong their careers. Sad to say that cheating is a way of life in baseball for some. Now that everyone knows that can we please quit wasting time investigating and questionning those who used... and get on with the business of preventing this from happening in the future?
Stricter testing (yes, blood tests included) and stiffer penalties (expulsion from the game) are the only solutions. Otherwise, cheaters will keep on cheating if they can beat the system.
Stricter testing (yes, blood tests included) and stiffer penalties (expulsion from the game) are the only solutions. Otherwise, cheaters will keep on cheating if they can beat the system.
I would hope that some where along the way there would be some students who would not cheat due to integrity displayed by their parents no matter how much money they would make.
A good point made as to the teacher leaving the room.The teacher in this room was the fans,the players,the organizations,the trainers,the scouts,the coaches and Bud Selig.We all have to take some responsibilty here.This problem has been going on longer than most realize.
Taking steroids before it was illegal was still cheating in my book.I would say breaking the law is a definite form of cheating.The even bigger problem in pro ball now is amphetamines to give them more energy. Do you think that is cheating ?
A good point made as to the teacher leaving the room.The teacher in this room was the fans,the players,the organizations,the trainers,the scouts,the coaches and Bud Selig.We all have to take some responsibilty here.This problem has been going on longer than most realize.
Taking steroids before it was illegal was still cheating in my book.I would say breaking the law is a definite form of cheating.The even bigger problem in pro ball now is amphetamines to give them more energy. Do you think that is cheating ?
Too late, I'm afraid.quote:Originally posted by CoachTraub:
I do hope that Clemens doesn't grow a third ear!
I will not cast judgement on any accused until proven guilty.
The thing I think the general public is missing on this issue is as follows........
The Major League Baseball Players Association (MLBPA) is known as one of the strongest unions in the world.
For years we have seen labor negotions with the MLBPA and Major League Baseball. Some have ended in strikes only to be resolved.
The 2 major issues that have been discussed and argued is Salary Cap/Free agency and Drug Testing among Major League Players.
A Salary Cap nor Free Agency has ever been implemented in MLB due the strength of the MLBPA.
What has been implemented is drug testing due to increased pressure by MLB, possible Federal Government intervention, and the general public.
So for discussion purposes, let's say 50% (and I think this would be high) of Major League players used or use steriods. Obviously their vote would be for no drug testing in past negotions.
Well that means 50% (again, this being low) have not or do not use steriods.
THEIR VOTE SHOULD OBVIOUSLY BE......YES.....FOR DRUG TESTING AMONG PLAYERS.
My question.........why didn't/haven't the players who did not use steriods put pressure on the union for drug testing?
Surely testing would protect their ability to compete fairly and subsequently allow them the ability to earn their fair market share.
I say shame on those Major League Players who don't use steriods for not stepping up and demanding their union to represent what is right.
The thing I think the general public is missing on this issue is as follows........
The Major League Baseball Players Association (MLBPA) is known as one of the strongest unions in the world.
For years we have seen labor negotions with the MLBPA and Major League Baseball. Some have ended in strikes only to be resolved.
The 2 major issues that have been discussed and argued is Salary Cap/Free agency and Drug Testing among Major League Players.
A Salary Cap nor Free Agency has ever been implemented in MLB due the strength of the MLBPA.
What has been implemented is drug testing due to increased pressure by MLB, possible Federal Government intervention, and the general public.
So for discussion purposes, let's say 50% (and I think this would be high) of Major League players used or use steriods. Obviously their vote would be for no drug testing in past negotions.
Well that means 50% (again, this being low) have not or do not use steriods.
THEIR VOTE SHOULD OBVIOUSLY BE......YES.....FOR DRUG TESTING AMONG PLAYERS.
My question.........why didn't/haven't the players who did not use steriods put pressure on the union for drug testing?
Surely testing would protect their ability to compete fairly and subsequently allow them the ability to earn their fair market share.
I say shame on those Major League Players who don't use steriods for not stepping up and demanding their union to represent what is right.
Hey Ken, Hope things are well at your household.
Obviously I have never been a member of the MLBPA but I have been in a Union (TWU-AFL-CIO) for twenty five years. It's just not that simple. Just because 50 or 51 percent want change, it is still up to your leadership (the higher ups who collect your dues) to make that decision. And do not forget in some sad situations, you need to find out who is sleeping with who. Believe me, just because half or even the majority want change, it doesn't happen that easily.
Obviously I have never been a member of the MLBPA but I have been in a Union (TWU-AFL-CIO) for twenty five years. It's just not that simple. Just because 50 or 51 percent want change, it is still up to your leadership (the higher ups who collect your dues) to make that decision. And do not forget in some sad situations, you need to find out who is sleeping with who. Believe me, just because half or even the majority want change, it doesn't happen that easily.
Alright so it's been a while, but this is a topic I feel pretty passionate about.
First, whether he's guilty or not... I don't know. How can any of us honestly look at the situation objectively. I have my previous judgements on Clemens, we all do. I'm a young kid in this country, and I'd like to think that if I'm ever accused of a crime I didn't commit, I would be given innocence before guilt.
I heard parts of the taped conversation by his trainer and RC, and at first I was screaming, "Roger, if you didn't do it, call him on it," but the same goes for the trainer (whose name I can't spell so I'm not trying to). Some say they both had to have known, and maybe the trainer doesn't really want Clemens to get caught. If he's not telling the truth, or begins to lie down the road, I hope he gets what he deserves, otherwise he needs to provide tangible proof of why what he said was right. He said he said will (should) never work in our court system.
However, for me (and for most I would hope), the issue isn't Clemens. It isn't if he cheatED. It's about the kids, it's almost always about the kids no-matter how cheesy that sounds. People are inherently conformists in some areas. I do not think any of these players who cheated or cheat are horrible people (unless they have other reasons for that). They are exhausting their resources to get better, and if you tell a kid that he should work hard and do whatever he can to get better, he will work hard (as they work hard) and he MIGHT take it to far and do something bad to get better. I'm not ever going to be much of a politician, but this issue permeates more than sports. It's pop culture, it's media, it's sports. Sports changing and testing will (IMO) never do enough to stop anyone. Call me negative, but there will always be the cheater--that one we can point to. (Side note: I hate how we only REALLY care when the CHEATER wins... but if he doesn't... oh well just another guy) The United States need to see a growing trend, that I could stand on my soap box for another 50 lines but I wont, and until we as a society do, true change won't be a reality.
Long time no talk. Don't worry, I'm more of the lurker... (spelling?)
First, whether he's guilty or not... I don't know. How can any of us honestly look at the situation objectively. I have my previous judgements on Clemens, we all do. I'm a young kid in this country, and I'd like to think that if I'm ever accused of a crime I didn't commit, I would be given innocence before guilt.
I heard parts of the taped conversation by his trainer and RC, and at first I was screaming, "Roger, if you didn't do it, call him on it," but the same goes for the trainer (whose name I can't spell so I'm not trying to). Some say they both had to have known, and maybe the trainer doesn't really want Clemens to get caught. If he's not telling the truth, or begins to lie down the road, I hope he gets what he deserves, otherwise he needs to provide tangible proof of why what he said was right. He said he said will (should) never work in our court system.
However, for me (and for most I would hope), the issue isn't Clemens. It isn't if he cheatED. It's about the kids, it's almost always about the kids no-matter how cheesy that sounds. People are inherently conformists in some areas. I do not think any of these players who cheated or cheat are horrible people (unless they have other reasons for that). They are exhausting their resources to get better, and if you tell a kid that he should work hard and do whatever he can to get better, he will work hard (as they work hard) and he MIGHT take it to far and do something bad to get better. I'm not ever going to be much of a politician, but this issue permeates more than sports. It's pop culture, it's media, it's sports. Sports changing and testing will (IMO) never do enough to stop anyone. Call me negative, but there will always be the cheater--that one we can point to. (Side note: I hate how we only REALLY care when the CHEATER wins... but if he doesn't... oh well just another guy) The United States need to see a growing trend, that I could stand on my soap box for another 50 lines but I wont, and until we as a society do, true change won't be a reality.
Long time no talk. Don't worry, I'm more of the lurker... (spelling?)
quote:Originally posted by theygrowupfast:
Hey Ken, Hope things are well at your household.
Obviously I have never been a member of the MLBPA but I have been in a Union (TWU-AFL-CIO) for twenty five years. It's just not that simple. Just because 50 or 51 percent want change, it is still up to your leadership (the higher ups who collect your dues) to make that decision. And do not forget in some sad situations, you need to find out who is sleeping with who. Believe me, just because half or even the majority want change, it doesn't happen that easily.
I agree with you Danny.........
But did you see one interview of any player suggesting a more proactive testing policy?
Just one interview?
Yes I did Ken........Here you go
Also, check how long ago they were asking!
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/stories/2002-07-08-steroids-acov.htm
Also, check how long ago they were asking!
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/stories/2002-07-08-steroids-acov.htm
quote:Originally posted by theygrowupfast:
Yes I did Ken........Here you go
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/stories/2002-07-08-steroids-acov.htm
Google search works well for you I see. Unless you put that one in your favorites back in 2002.
So, that article obviously throws percentages around that would suggest the majority of players would have welcomed testing.
So now should we blame the media for letting it get out of hand? Why wasn't there more demand for testing back then by the media, general public, players, owners, MLBPA?
Let's put it in a different perspective......
Let's say a left handed pitcher at UTA has reasonable doubt that several players on his team were using "enhancers".
UTA goes on to win the Southland Conference Championship. When they test for steriods at the Regional tournament UTA has too many players tested positive and is forced to withdraw from competition as well as forfeiting there conference championship.
That player or those who knew of the steriod abuse could have spoken earlier in the season.
Of coarse, they may have recieved ridicule from peers.
But at what time to you actually stand, AT ALL COSTS, for what you believe to be as right?
Maybe a walk out by those clean would have cleaned things up long ago. Would they have been seen in a different light?
Most likely.
I hope that if my son faces a decision of such the light shines on him.
(This was a hypothetical post and does not reflect UTA or any left handed pitcher)
Since Clemens has already made about 200 million dollars, he can just ride into the sunset and leave the game behind. He got his and now he can quit.
Clemens kept saying "why didn't I break down?" "why didn't I grow a horn out of my head?"
It's a liar's pattern to turn questions back on the questioner. It's third grade stuff.
Yep, most likely he used the stuff. All drugs have different effects from person to person.
Clemens kept saying "why didn't I break down?" "why didn't I grow a horn out of my head?"
It's a liar's pattern to turn questions back on the questioner. It's third grade stuff.
Yep, most likely he used the stuff. All drugs have different effects from person to person.
Actually Ken, I saw Curt Schilling being interviewed Saturday and he mentioned that it was well documented in the past that many players welcomed testing.
So then I searched.
As for the lefty, that's apples to oranges because
A. There is testing in college and no union to fight.
B. "at all cost" money will change many honest people.
I would hope that the lefty would do the right thing whatever it is.
by the way, nice disclaimer!!
So then I searched.
As for the lefty, that's apples to oranges because
A. There is testing in college and no union to fight.
B. "at all cost" money will change many honest people.
I would hope that the lefty would do the right thing whatever it is.
by the way, nice disclaimer!!
I didn't see the 60 minutes interview....American Gladiators was approaching. I find his comments about a 3rd ear or pulling tractors with his teeth somewhat bizarre. Admitted users, even heavy users like Canseco, don't turn into circus freaks. Lie detector or otherwise, for me it comes down to answering the question, "what motivation does McNamee have to implicate Clemens?"
There is a link to a story on the recent Clemens/McNamee conversation on the following site.
Clemens (under Top Stories)
Ken -- without specifics, details, or naming names....what kind of things did you witness in the clubhouse?
I find his comments about a 3rd ear or pulling tractors with his teeth somewhat bizarre. Admitted users, even heavy users like Canseco, don't turn into circus freaks. Lie detector or otherwise, for me it comes down to answering the question, "what motivation does McNamee have to implicate Clemens?" There is a link to a story on the recent Clemens/McNamee conversation on the following site.
Clemens (under Top Stories)
Ken -- without specifics, details, or naming names....what kind of things did you witness in the clubhouse?
quote:Originally posted by hawk 1980:
I want to believe him, but he seemed a little too defensive...
can't wait to see mcnamee's response
I agree...McNamee is also the one who gave it to Rogers best friend Andy Pettite
www.dfwhssports.com
I see it two ways....
First, yes, I believe that he used Steroids...and that a majority of players did use HGH, Steroids, Uppers or some other drug during that time.
Second, while everybody is fixated on pointing the fingers at the players, where are the fingers being pointed at the Commissioner? The Owners? The GM's?
You don't think they knew? They were willing to look the other way after the strike...they didn't want to mess with the Union again.
That includes the General Managing Partner (Owner) right here in Texas at the time...GWB. You think when Juan Rodriguez came into spring training 25 pounds heavier, all of muscle, that that didn't raise an eyebrow?
Just so happens it occurs the year after you trade for Canseco?
Come on, we all knew it. The day the reporter saw the bottle of Andro in McGwires locker, we all knew something was up.
And really, do you think that these guys in the NFL aren't using HGH or steroids? Please.
Name a sport, there are steroid/HGH users. And lots of them. From the amature level to the biggest names out there. Roger just so happened to have a trainer that got into a little trouble with the FBI, and so he had to name names.
Now he has the same prosecuter that got Marion Jones and just indicted Barry Bonds looking at him. If I was him, I'd just shut up while I was ahead.
First, yes, I believe that he used Steroids...and that a majority of players did use HGH, Steroids, Uppers or some other drug during that time.
Second, while everybody is fixated on pointing the fingers at the players, where are the fingers being pointed at the Commissioner? The Owners? The GM's?
You don't think they knew? They were willing to look the other way after the strike...they didn't want to mess with the Union again.
That includes the General Managing Partner (Owner) right here in Texas at the time...GWB. You think when Juan Rodriguez came into spring training 25 pounds heavier, all of muscle, that that didn't raise an eyebrow?
Just so happens it occurs the year after you trade for Canseco?
Come on, we all knew it. The day the reporter saw the bottle of Andro in McGwires locker, we all knew something was up.
And really, do you think that these guys in the NFL aren't using HGH or steroids? Please.
Name a sport, there are steroid/HGH users. And lots of them. From the amature level to the biggest names out there. Roger just so happened to have a trainer that got into a little trouble with the FBI, and so he had to name names.
Now he has the same prosecuter that got Marion Jones and just indicted Barry Bonds looking at him. If I was him, I'd just shut up while I was ahead.
quote:
Ken -- without specifics, details, or naming names....what kind of things did you witness in the clubhouse?
Steriod use, from what I saw, was not too visible in the clubhouse.
I did see 1 player in particular use it without making a strong attempt to hide it. It was almost like he didn't care what folks thought.
There was talk from a certain player about his disgust with steriods and the players who used them. It was a frequent pregame discussion.
That player was later proven to have taken steriods.
Despite how much I deplore cheaters, I do find it rather ironic how major league baseball "cherry picks" its transgressors. For example, despite his own admissions, a blatant cheater like Gaylord Perry gets to be received in Cooperstown and take his place amongst the greats who threw legal pitches to win 300 games. Corked bat users have historically received only mild slaps on the wrist. Stealing of signs/signals (which cost Bill Belichek $500,000) is openly encouraged in baseball. Keeping infield grass very high, watering down baselines against great base stealers, scuffing balls like Whitey Ford used to do-these are all seen as ways to get "an edge" for your team. Illegal? In some cases, yes. Unethical? Indisputably so. How does baseball draw the line? Okay young people, you can cheat in this area and this area but you should not cheat in this area and this area. Cheating is cheating. Had baseball put some teeth into its drug testing policies 15 yearsd ago then none of this would have happened. But coming on the heels of the cancelled 1994 World Series, owners wanted to put butts in seats so they turned their collective heads when obviously juiced up players like Sosa and McGwire staged their homer duel in 1998. Their lack of concern for the black eye their sport was obtaining was overridden by their greed. This, in turn, gave us Barry Bonds and his tainted records. Baseball can end all of this by testing players regularly and kicking out cheaters. Label this recent era "The Steroid Era", there was also a "dead ball era", and move on.
20's old man -- some great points -- and welcome to the message board. I agree with you on most of your comments.....except perhaps the one regarding stealing signs in baseball. I think there's a difference between watching a signal and guessing on the interpretation and filming a series of signs in a behind-the-scenes scheme to steal a game plan. If you're comparing setting up high-power cameras or the like behind the outfield fence to track a catcher's signs then I think the comparisons are legitimate. But if a football team comes up to the line and changes a run to a pass by yelling "BLUE 32" 2-3 times.....and they do it 6 times in a row for 1st downs....isn't it logical that the defense might determine the intent? Okok, I'm off the subject.
Good post! Yes, corked bats and doctored baseballs are cheating! Slower infields.....I dunno....how field advantage?
Good post! Yes, corked bats and doctored baseballs are cheating! Slower infields.....I dunno....how field advantage?
Not looking good for Roger:
Brian McNamee's lawyers demand release of recorded interview
BY CHRISTIAN RED in Houstonand TERI THOMPSON in New York
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITERS
Tuesday, January 8th 2008, 4:00 AM
Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte sent private investigators to conduct a taped interview with Brian McNamee the day before the release of the Mitchell Report. Tapes of the extensive session have not been released by Clemens' camp.
McNamee's attorney, Earl Ward, issued a statement Monday calling for Clemens' attorney Rusty Hardin to release the tapes, as Hardin did with a 17-minute recording of an emotional, profanity-laced conversation between McNamee and Clemens that occurred on Friday night. In that tape, which was played for the media at Clemens' press conference in Houston, McNamee laments the developments that have occurred, saying his son is ill and that he is broke. McNamee said, "I want it to go away. I'm with you in your corner ... but I also don't want to go to jail. It has nothing to do with you. I'd also like to sit down in person with you."
Of the taped interview that took place Dec.12, Ward said in a statement, "Brian told these investigators the same thing he told the federal authorities and Senator Mitchell. And we hearby demand the tape be released in its entirety immediately."
According to Joe Householder, a Hardin assistant, Clemens' attorneys do not plan to release the tape, at least not in the near future. Parts of it are included in the defamation lawsuit Clemens filed in a Texas state court just before the "60 Minutes" report aired Sunday night. "It's an item in the discovery process," Householder told the Daily News. "It'll probably become public during the discovery process."
According to Ward, the Clemens camp may not want to release the tape for another reason: he believes it confirms what McNamee has said all along - that he told investigators and Mitchell the truth about injecting Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone and Pettitte with HGH. Pettitte has confirmed that he took HGH on two occasions.
The tape also brings into question Clemens' statement to Mike Wallace during a "60 Minutes" interview on Sunday that he had no advance knowledge of what McNamee had told Mitchell, although Hardin said during the press conference that McNamee had informed Pettitte and a representative of Clemens' by phone eight days before the Mitchell Report was released that he had spoken to Mitchell and federal investigators. The investigators - a representative from Hardin's law firm and a former Houston homicide officer - arrived to interview McNamee on Wednesday, the day before the report's release, presenting him with documents signed on Dec.11 authorizing them to ask questions on behalf of Clemens and Pettitte.
"They were there strictly to ask him open-ended questions as to what he had said," Householder said. "That was the purpose and he told them what he told Mitchell."
Clemens repeated in his press conference yesterday what he told Wallace - "if I would have known what this man, Brian McNamee, had said in this report, I would have been down in a heartbeat to take care of it."
Said Ward: "Mr. Clemens did in fact know that he was named in the report prior to its release and the only thing he did in a heartbeat was to hire a lawyer prior to the release of Senator Mitchell's report. Brian told the federal authorities the truth. Thereafter Brian met with Senator Mitchell as detailed in the Mitchell Report."
Brian McNamee's lawyers demand release of recorded interview
BY CHRISTIAN RED in Houstonand TERI THOMPSON in New York
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITERS
Tuesday, January 8th 2008, 4:00 AM
Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte sent private investigators to conduct a taped interview with Brian McNamee the day before the release of the Mitchell Report. Tapes of the extensive session have not been released by Clemens' camp.
McNamee's attorney, Earl Ward, issued a statement Monday calling for Clemens' attorney Rusty Hardin to release the tapes, as Hardin did with a 17-minute recording of an emotional, profanity-laced conversation between McNamee and Clemens that occurred on Friday night. In that tape, which was played for the media at Clemens' press conference in Houston, McNamee laments the developments that have occurred, saying his son is ill and that he is broke. McNamee said, "I want it to go away. I'm with you in your corner ... but I also don't want to go to jail. It has nothing to do with you. I'd also like to sit down in person with you."
Of the taped interview that took place Dec.12, Ward said in a statement, "Brian told these investigators the same thing he told the federal authorities and Senator Mitchell. And we hearby demand the tape be released in its entirety immediately."
According to Joe Householder, a Hardin assistant, Clemens' attorneys do not plan to release the tape, at least not in the near future. Parts of it are included in the defamation lawsuit Clemens filed in a Texas state court just before the "60 Minutes" report aired Sunday night. "It's an item in the discovery process," Householder told the Daily News. "It'll probably become public during the discovery process."
According to Ward, the Clemens camp may not want to release the tape for another reason: he believes it confirms what McNamee has said all along - that he told investigators and Mitchell the truth about injecting Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone and Pettitte with HGH. Pettitte has confirmed that he took HGH on two occasions.
The tape also brings into question Clemens' statement to Mike Wallace during a "60 Minutes" interview on Sunday that he had no advance knowledge of what McNamee had told Mitchell, although Hardin said during the press conference that McNamee had informed Pettitte and a representative of Clemens' by phone eight days before the Mitchell Report was released that he had spoken to Mitchell and federal investigators. The investigators - a representative from Hardin's law firm and a former Houston homicide officer - arrived to interview McNamee on Wednesday, the day before the report's release, presenting him with documents signed on Dec.11 authorizing them to ask questions on behalf of Clemens and Pettitte.
"They were there strictly to ask him open-ended questions as to what he had said," Householder said. "That was the purpose and he told them what he told Mitchell."
Clemens repeated in his press conference yesterday what he told Wallace - "if I would have known what this man, Brian McNamee, had said in this report, I would have been down in a heartbeat to take care of it."
Said Ward: "Mr. Clemens did in fact know that he was named in the report prior to its release and the only thing he did in a heartbeat was to hire a lawyer prior to the release of Senator Mitchell's report. Brian told the federal authorities the truth. Thereafter Brian met with Senator Mitchell as detailed in the Mitchell Report."
I can hardly wait for Saturday morning around 11:00 at the Waco Convention Center. It's going to be a media circus. Usually the Saturday sessions are not that well attended, but I can promise you that I will be there at 6:00 a.m. just so I can get a parking space.
I've said this in other places... If he used or not is something he is going to have to deal with and will eventually be the determinig factor about his character and legacy. To some people those things are not as important as their personal accomplishments. What I really want to hear at the convention is mainly about how he pitched and his mental make up. Even if he did use them, he still had to be able to locate his pitches, attack each hitter differently, mentally prepare for a game, be able to throw different pitches at different counts effectively, deal with adversity....etc.
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out and how it reflects on the THSBCA. Just so we're all clear here, I do not support anyone that uses illegal drugs to try and get ahead of the game. It is a shame that it has come to this.
I've said this in other places... If he used or not is something he is going to have to deal with and will eventually be the determinig factor about his character and legacy. To some people those things are not as important as their personal accomplishments. What I really want to hear at the convention is mainly about how he pitched and his mental make up. Even if he did use them, he still had to be able to locate his pitches, attack each hitter differently, mentally prepare for a game, be able to throw different pitches at different counts effectively, deal with adversity....etc.
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out and how it reflects on the THSBCA. Just so we're all clear here, I do not support anyone that uses illegal drugs to try and get ahead of the game. It is a shame that it has come to this.
Panther Dad, I was referring to cameras in the outfield to steal signs or binoculars in the outfield bullpen. As far as the higher grass being used as an advantage, I have read where the home team has often allowed the grass to remain uncut for an extra day or two before their ace sinker baller takes the mound. Knowing he has a propensity to generate a lot of ground ball outs, a good groundskeeper can help slow those grounders down even more. I heard Ted Willians reference it before. Watering down and/or putting extra sand in the basepaths was attempted by many teams when Maury Wills was breaking stolen base records in the early '60s.
This steroid stuff just seems so after the fact that I do not see the point. We now know Babe Ruth to have been a womanizing, gambling, alcoholic but his icon status remains unchanged. Like I said earlier, the owners can stop this if and when they are ready. Find a cheater then kick him out and make him stay out forever. Remember Steve Howe, the old lefty picher from 20 years ago? What did he get, 6 or 7 chances to play again after cocaine and alcohol issues? Darrel Strawberry? Kick them out. Go back to teaching kids that drugs, from marijuana to coacine to ecstasy to steroids, are wrong and if we catch you using them then you forfeit the right to make millions playing baseball. Period.
This steroid stuff just seems so after the fact that I do not see the point. We now know Babe Ruth to have been a womanizing, gambling, alcoholic but his icon status remains unchanged. Like I said earlier, the owners can stop this if and when they are ready. Find a cheater then kick him out and make him stay out forever. Remember Steve Howe, the old lefty picher from 20 years ago? What did he get, 6 or 7 chances to play again after cocaine and alcohol issues? Darrel Strawberry? Kick them out. Go back to teaching kids that drugs, from marijuana to coacine to ecstasy to steroids, are wrong and if we catch you using them then you forfeit the right to make millions playing baseball. Period.
Yes, I know the arguments concerning infield grass and base paths, etc.....but....is that cheating? We do not disagree that in order to clean up the game, there has to be a new attitude towards those that are on drugs.
No, those are not cheating but they do seem unethical. I referenced them as another example of getting an edge that flirts with the spirit of the game. If McGwire, Bonds, and others did indeed take "enhancers" when there was no explicit rule against it then why are we on a witch hunt years later? Place an asterisk (or a syringe) by their names and move on. Focus on stopping its current use. Tighten up the policies. Return the game to where it once was before anyone was hitting upper deck home runs to the opposite field!
I am more concerned about my 8th grader of today. I do not want him to see "juice" in his locker room or feel compelled to try it to keep up with the Jones's. Baseball's power brokers can stop it very easily but they only care about their bottom lines. It is strange to me that baseball can ban Pete Rose for his actions AFTER he retired yet they let this stuff go on that is so easily preventable.
I am more concerned about my 8th grader of today. I do not want him to see "juice" in his locker room or feel compelled to try it to keep up with the Jones's. Baseball's power brokers can stop it very easily but they only care about their bottom lines. It is strange to me that baseball can ban Pete Rose for his actions AFTER he retired yet they let this stuff go on that is so easily preventable.
Guilty!
Who is going to jail? User? Dealer? Producer?
Are we more concerned with the fact that someone has cheated playing our favorite pastime or that drug use is a criminal activity.
Cheating should be criminal but watering fields, not cutting grass, cork bats etc. is not a crime.
Are we more concerned with the fact that someone has cheated playing our favorite pastime or that drug use is a criminal activity.
Cheating should be criminal but watering fields, not cutting grass, cork bats etc. is not a crime.
Not suggesting those things are criminal. If you read what I wrote, it says they are probably unethical and geared to gaining an edge. No one is equating illicit drug usage with that. My original post simply stated that baseball has a very uneven past in deciding which cheaters they are going to punish. (Ex. Spitballers in Cooperstown.)
I also said that any use of illegal drugs in professional baseball should result in that person being banned from the league. No three strike program, no 10 day suspensions, BANNED. Show our kids that drugs are wrong and you cannot get away with using them simply because you throw a ball 95 miles per hour and make 15 million bucks a year.
I also said that any use of illegal drugs in professional baseball should result in that person being banned from the league. No three strike program, no 10 day suspensions, BANNED. Show our kids that drugs are wrong and you cannot get away with using them simply because you throw a ball 95 miles per hour and make 15 million bucks a year.
Breaking the law should land you in jail not the hall of fame or even back on the baseball field.If any player is caught taking illegal drugs they should be arrested not warned and then they should be dismissed from the team.End of story.Tough love to help these guys do the right thing.It is highly unfair to the honest players to have to compete against steriod users.
20's:
As the Mitchell report made very clear, steroids use without a prescription was illegal at all times, and yes, it was illegal in the criminal sense. Meaning those who did it committed felonies.
And in so doing, they violated MLB's standing rules.
There were rules more specifically addressing steroids adopted later on, and steroid-specific testing has been put in place. But steroids have always been in violation of MLB rules, and anyone who tells you different isn't shooting straight with you.
As the Mitchell report made very clear, steroids use without a prescription was illegal at all times, and yes, it was illegal in the criminal sense. Meaning those who did it committed felonies.
And in so doing, they violated MLB's standing rules.
There were rules more specifically addressing steroids adopted later on, and steroid-specific testing has been put in place. But steroids have always been in violation of MLB rules, and anyone who tells you different isn't shooting straight with you.
didn't the female track star have to give back her medals? can anyone say double standard? i know there is no physical proof but come on. this guy cannot open his mouth without lying. He obviously lied to Mike Wallace about when he knew what.
I also think the Texas High School Coaches are showing extremely bad judgement in allowing this circus to take over their meetings.
I also think the Texas High School Coaches are showing extremely bad judgement in allowing this circus to take over their meetings.
I admire THSCA for supporting Roger and not allowing this circus to dictate their actions.
supporting a lyer and cheat. while at the same time the coaches are telling the boys not to use steroids. real admirable.
Ken - if you witnessed it with your own eyes... how about "outing" the players who used and exposing them right now by naming names?
It's not that I really care who they are, it is simply that reluctance to name names is a symptom of the disease that has infected our culture. Cheaters should be exposed, not protected.
It's not that I really care who they are, it is simply that reluctance to name names is a symptom of the disease that has infected our culture. Cheaters should be exposed, not protected.
or supported by the high school coaches.
quote:Originally posted by sluggo:
I admire THSCA for supporting Roger and not allowing this circus to dictate their actions.
I don't think support is their main agenda. This isn't a political rally.
quote:Originally posted by Natural:
Ken - if you witnessed it with your own eyes... how about "outing" the players who used and exposing them right now by naming names?
It's not that I really care who they are, it is simply that reluctance to name names is a symptom of the disease that has infected our culture. Cheaters should be exposed, not protected.
So Major Leaguers should be held to a higher standard than HS or college athletes?
How bout, when any player does wrong...at any level...they are outed.
Until that is allowed on this forum, I'm not naming names.
If it is........then I'll spill my guts.
Whether their rich or poor.....play T-Ball or MLB.........
Wrong is wrong and I'll stand for that no matter what.
But when you don't allow for a HS players name to be stated than why should a MLB player be named?
Again, open the gates and I'll open my mouth.
Double Standard regards,